Not sure where to post (politics, discrimination, AAARGH!?) this so i just posted it under the most general category possible
People see me as a hate machine the moment they realize I'm trans. Never before that, though.
I was at school the other day and while I was having a conversation with a teacher about activism and perceived hate vs actual hate, I mentioned I was trans. Not sure how she missed it in the first place, given that my name on the papers are different to what people loudly yell to get my attention across the room.
That aside, the moment I dropped that I was trans her tone changed. I said I hadn't faced any kind of physical aggression over being trans and while I had some issues from strangers in the past I felt that overall the local area is really accepting of me and my other trans friends.
Somehow in her head, my sentance on me and my friends facing very little backpush over being trans had turned into something quite different, and her response was
"yes, but have you really faced any hate from the people here? I mean, really, aren't you making a big deal over nothing?"
Suddenly, because she now had the information I was trans, I was a reactive neanderthal screaming into the vastness of space. We were on the same level the whole conversation, agreeing and disagreeing where appropriate and my mentioning how nice the local people were turned into how victimized I was, and she felt the need to correct that.
I had become the epitome of rage culture in her eyes, even though the whole time we've known eachother I have voiced multiples times that I am strongly against the current trends of people focusing on anecdotal evidence more than statistics.
Then i had to repeat what I had initially said multiple times, phrased different ways (as she interrupted), until she understood I wasn't taking part in the screaming matches. When she finally got it, I was suddenly the trans person who agreed with her opinions and I should be toted around (at arm's length) as if it makes her right... even though I agreed with her before.
I went from normal human to opinionated moron in her eyes in 0.3 just because I briefly mentioned I was a transman. I was immediately lumped in with every other screaming liberal she'd ever seen on TV.
This isn't even the first time this has happened, either. I've had people hold the door open for me, see my short hair and bound chest, and then start apologizing profusely because they've read about the hoards of "angry lesbians" calling it sexist to hold a door open for someone. It's not my fault, either. I'm not acting differently. I never thought this would happen to me until it started happening to me.
Often when I walk up to groups talking about LGBT culture the conversation fizzles out- it doesn't fizzle out on any other topic. I can contribute or not contribute, the voices still stop talking very quickly. Other people join, no fizzling happens. but me? the trans person? oh no, they'll get angry, better be quiet.
People expect me to be angry at everything they say even though I've never shown any anger, or even irritation at anything, until now. Until today.
And even now i'm not angry at people lumping me in with every extreme activist on youtube..... I'm angry at the extremists who make people scared to talk to LGBT people. I don't blame people for seeing the bad things and trying to avoid it, I'm angry at people doing the bad things.
Has anyone else experienced the weird friction and the expectation of rage? Has anyone else here faced being avoided in fear of angry ranting, or is it just my school?
Also another quick aside:
I'm not putting any activists down, and there are many situations where it's correct to be angry and not every liberal is part of the rage culture
I'm just upset at people assuming i'll scream at them over every little thing, like some people do, and like the narrative on the far right is pushing.
it's also worth mentioning I'm in an art college, and these topics are unavoidable.
Some people fall into the narratives and beliefs of their adopted culture and like many everywhere, they never question it or reevaluate it. They're stuck just as much as some SoCon from the south, maybe worse. They have the capacity to know better and should.
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When people have no experience of their own, they fall upon 'learned' experiences from other sources .. like TV. It's sounds like the people you're talking about do/did this. It isn't right, it's how it is. Whether you're trans or not doesn't matter (it's just that since you're trans, that's what you get as a target).
People unconsciously re-evaluate every time they get new information, past history can mean little to nothing. If it doesn't ease back to reasonable norm, then likely that person has a ingrained learned line that they cannot cross with conscious effort. Kind of like breaking a bad habit.
it can suck, yep.
or I'm completely wrong, it's been known to happen ::)
Tv?
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Quote from: Gertrude on November 29, 2017, 09:20:14 PM
Tv?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
yeah ... short for internet on cell phones ::) see how much longer that is to type ;D
That sounds properly infuriating, no way I would have kept my cool in such a situation! I am familiar with the LGBT discussion sometimes 'fizzling out' when its a group they do not know me very well. Among friends its never a barrier, because they know I don't mind and am willing to argue with them if I disagree.. But people often tiptoe around issues regarding gender, race and such when a 'protagonist' gets involved! A profusely anti immigrant friend of mine wouldn't dream of making the same jokes around a Syrian refugee he so much enjoys indulging in when only 'real' Norwegians are around!
Have had a lot of glances when someone at my local impro comedy night makes a joke poking fun at trans people, concerned faces checking with me if that joke was in poor taste or not. I may not laugh my ass of at the low hanging fruit that is 'men in womens clothing' jokes or the like, but sometimes the jokes they make are legitimately funny and I don't take myself so seriously I can't have a laugh! We are usually a small audience, and even if the people on stage doesn't notice or care about my presence, some in the audience certainly seem like they need to check with me that the joke is OK before they laugh.
Do you think this teacher genuinely misheard you, or did so knowingly in order stir up a shouting match?
One aspect of the fallout generated by identity politics as currently being pursued, maybe. Which is one reason I do not like identity politics as it stands now and the activist types who imagine themselves at war with everyone who doesn't immediately agree or side with them ("or else you're a Nazi bigot"), and do often seem to take the opportunities to take "revenge" on those who don't, through open vilification, getting people fired, forcing them to stand down, doxxing, etc. They have been on the offensive with particular ferocity in the last four or five years, and the result has been regular people have become wary and avoidant of them, if not outright terrified and compelled to reject or challenge them.
I'm now aware myself of the discomfort people may be feeling when around trans people, because they've all now heard of the idea not calling a trans person by "correct pronouns" can be punishable in some places, and will likely be adopted by other places shortly. It's this sort of thing I think may have the opposite effect of making us more accepted. Though that will probably depend on how harshly trans people choose to use these rights to punish people. If we get a reputation for it, probably won't do us any favors.
And I won't lie - I am not exactly completely at ease with other trans people in person now either, given the situation. I have no idea how they are going to react if I make a mistake with them. Trans people now seem hyper-sensitive and hyper-vigilant to the issue of not having their feelings imposed on, and it can be rather easy to hurt a trans person's feelings when you don't know them at all. Just being on this forum and airing my relatively benign views I know for a fact has irritated plenty of FTM and MTF alike on here and had them harassing me via PM - and I'm generally on their side most of the time. I wouldn't enjoy spending a lot of time around people who are this extremely sensitive, to be honest. The emerging stereotype of a trans person as such a person is unfortunate, but I'm beginning to think not entirely unreasonable.
Maybe ask these suddenly quiet people if they're uncomfortable talking about LGBT issues with you present.
I'm pretty firmly in the camp of never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
Also imo the world needs angry activists. Someone has to be visible and sometimes those are the angry people. I wonder why you single out angry lesbians in specific? Are angry gay men or trans or people of color different in any other way except that traditionally there's more societal pressure on women to not be assertive?
I was talking about the current sociopolitical upheaval we're in with a str8 friend just last night a day he agreed with me that reading the news post trump mostly just makes us angry and he said "but what do you do, short of becoming a full time activist?"
We live in times that warrant some anger.
I see while I was composing a Godwin has been dropped, end of another discussion I guess.
It's pretty tough these days for normal people to be normal, society is just getting so polarized. Just look at all the furor over sexual harassment again, I thought we went through that 20 years ago and here it is again. Are we generationally ignorant and doomed to keep repeating these social epiphanies? I think many people are just becoming gunshy and defensive in advance because they don't know who to trust any more. Social media is a large part of the problem because the squeaky wheels get all the press. The best we can do, and I try desperately to do, is be that calmer, more assuring voice that encourages a civil dialogue when I talk with non trans people (and trans people as well). Even when we have not been the instigator, it's only through taking the high road and not getting sucked into a confrontational debate that we can hope to change how people see us, as individuals and as trans people. Sounds like that was accomplished, but I know, WAY more work than it should be. Just realize that in many ways we are dealing with scared children who have to be assured that we mean them no harm before they can be comfortable with us.
Just a quick question and comment, Viktor. I have always enjoyed your comments and found them insightful and well thought out and articulated. Is that you in your avatar? If so, it's a beautiful and inspiring picture and I love keyboards! If not, it's still an amazing picture, where did you find it? Toni
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 30, 2017, 07:35:07 AM
I wonder why you single out angry lesbians in specific? Are angry gay men or trans or people of color different in any other way except that traditionally there's more societal pressure on women to not be assertive?
Because I look like a lesbian. That is how it affects me.
QuoteAlso imo the world needs angry activists. Someone has to be visible and sometimes those are the angry people.
I disagree, anger has caused nothing but detriment to my life. Articulate and firm people are what we need, not necessarily anger. We are currently living in a culture of reactive, blind rage and fear. It seems quite hard to find someone who isn't angry these days, even things as simple as a hair style people seem to get angry over.
And I acknowledge that there is a time and a place for anger... but the time and place is not when someone holds a door open for you.
Quote from: Faith on November 30, 2017, 05:57:32 AM
yeah ... short for internet on cell phones ::) see how much longer that is to type ;D
Nah. Indoctrination and internal beliefs are usually formed in the family of origin when young. Tv is a place for confirmation bias and reinforcement.
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Quote from: SadieBlake on November 30, 2017, 07:35:07 AM
Maybe ask these suddenly quiet people if they're uncomfortable talking about LGBT issues with you present.
I'm pretty firmly in the camp of never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
Also imo the world needs angry activists. Someone has to be visible and sometimes those are the angry people. I wonder why you single out angry lesbians in specific? Are angry gay men or trans or people of color different in any other way except that traditionally there's more societal pressure on women to not be assertive?
I was talking about the current sociopolitical upheaval we're in with a str8 friend just last night a day he agreed with me that reading the news post trump mostly just makes us angry and he said "but what do you do, short of becoming a full time activist?"
We live in times that warrant some anger.
I see while I was composing a Godwin has been dropped, end of another discussion I guess.
I think the anger and vitriol just makes the opposition dig in their heels and creates distance that prevents dialogue and learning. Further, usually those that are angry tend to like being angry more than solving anything. They take the poison and hope the other guy dies.
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Yes. In human psychology, might as well be a universal law that if you try to get something by force from a person, all you get in return is opposing force, including when you try to convert them to your thinking by forceful means, verbal aggression or coercion.
You can try it with anyone at any time. Try telling them their view sucks. Try threatening them for their view. Try shaming them for their view. Try yelling. Tell them they're a bigot. See if they convert to your view.
They'll only do it if they think you're going to get them arrested, beat them senseless or kill them, and even then they won't be sincere about agreeing with you because now they probably hate you for what you've done or made them feel.
The only way to win hearts and minds is to do it civilized. Meet someone on a level field as an equal and rationalize why your view is best. If it really is best, it ought to have some merit points most people can see, or be made aware of. People need to be approached in a sense as you would approach a wary creature from the wild. You have to make friends with them, you have to show that you're not there just to entrap and dominate or destroy their view. You have to foster trust or you'll get nothing.
Too many people these days just think everyone needs forcing into "thinking right". Or a boot in the face for thinking wrong. People have got it into their heads it's just fine to literally hate someone for their manner of thought and dehumanize them for it. No wonder things are going so badly.
Quote from: Viktor on December 01, 2017, 06:11:06 AM
Yes. In human psychology, might as well be a universal law that if you try to get something by force from a person, all you get in return is opposing force, including when you try to convert them to your thinking by forceful means, verbal aggression or coercion.
You can try it with anyone at any time. Try telling them their view sucks. Try threatening them for their view. Try shaming them for their view. Try yelling. Tell them they're a bigot. See if they convert to your view.
They'll only do it if they think you're going to get them arrested, beat them senseless or kill them, and even then they won't be sincere about agreeing with you because now they probably hate you for what you've done or made them feel.
The only way to win hearts and minds is to do it civilized. Meet someone on a level field as an equal and rationalize why your view is best. If it really is best, it ought to have some merit points most people can see, or be made aware of. People need to be approached in a sense as you would approach a wary creature from the wild. You have to make friends with them, you have to show that you're not there just to entrap and dominate or destroy their view. You have to foster trust or you'll get nothing.
Too many people these days just think everyone needs forcing into "thinking right". Or a boot in the face for thinking wrong. People have got it into their heads it's just fine to literally hate someone for their manner of thought and dehumanize them for it. No wonder things are going so badly.
Pretty much and I would add the best circumstance for that is by breaking bread with them. There's no more intimate situation for getting to know people and exchanging ideas.
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Quote from: undautri on November 28, 2017, 07:35:11 PM
Not sure where to post (politics, discrimination, AAARGH!?) this so i just posted it under the most general category possible
People see me as a hate machine the moment they realize I'm trans. Never before that, though.
I was at school the other day and while I was having a conversation with a teacher about activism and perceived hate vs actual hate, I mentioned I was trans. Not sure how she missed it in the first place, given that my name on the papers are different to what people loudly yell to get my attention across the room.
That aside, the moment I dropped that I was trans her tone changed. I said I hadn't faced any kind of physical aggression over being trans and while I had some issues from strangers in the past I felt that overall the local area is really accepting of me and my other trans friends.
Somehow in her head, my sentance on me and my friends facing very little backpush over being trans had turned into something quite different, and her response was
"yes, but have you really faced any hate from the people here? I mean, really, aren't you making a big deal over nothing?"
Suddenly, because she now had the information I was trans, I was a reactive neanderthal screaming into the vastness of space. We were on the same level the whole conversation, agreeing and disagreeing where appropriate and my mentioning how nice the local people were turned into how victimized I was, and she felt the need to correct that.
I had become the epitome of rage culture in her eyes, even though the whole time we've known eachother I have voiced multiples times that I am strongly against the current trends of people focusing on anecdotal evidence more than statistics.
Then i had to repeat what I had initially said multiple times, phrased different ways (as she interrupted), until she understood I wasn't taking part in the screaming matches. When she finally got it, I was suddenly the trans person who agreed with her opinions and I should be toted around (at arm's length) as if it makes her right... even though I agreed with her before.
I went from normal human to opinionated moron in her eyes in 0.3 just because I briefly mentioned I was a transman. I was immediately lumped in with every other screaming liberal she'd ever seen on TV.
This isn't even the first time this has happened, either. I've had people hold the door open for me, see my short hair and bound chest, and then start apologizing profusely because they've read about the hoards of "angry lesbians" calling it sexist to hold a door open for someone. It's not my fault, either. I'm not acting differently. I never thought this would happen to me until it started happening to me.
Often when I walk up to groups talking about LGBT culture the conversation fizzles out- it doesn't fizzle out on any other topic. I can contribute or not contribute, the voices still stop talking very quickly. Other people join, no fizzling happens. but me? the trans person? oh no, they'll get angry, better be quiet.
People expect me to be angry at everything they say even though I've never shown any anger, or even irritation at anything, until now. Until today.
And even now i'm not angry at people lumping me in with every extreme activist on youtube..... I'm angry at the extremists who make people scared to talk to LGBT people. I don't blame people for seeing the bad things and trying to avoid it, I'm angry at people doing the bad things.
Has anyone else experienced the weird friction and the expectation of rage? Has anyone else here faced being avoided in fear of angry ranting, or is it just my school?
I never had angry lesbians against me, or say anything bad of me. All those People who i heard was lesbian, was Nice to me.
Quote from: Viktor on November 30, 2017, 07:10:08 AM
One aspect of the fallout generated by identity politics as currently being pursued, maybe. Which is one reason I do not like identity politics as it stands now and the activist types who imagine themselves at war with everyone who doesn't immediately agree or side with them ("or else you're a Nazi bigot"), and do often seem to take the opportunities to take "revenge" on those who don't, through open vilification, getting people fired, forcing them to stand down, doxxing, etc. They have been on the offensive with particular ferocity in the last four or five years, and the result has been regular people have become wary and avoidant of them, if not outright terrified and compelled to reject or challenge them.
^^^^ This. I don't like bringing up politics too much on these forums, but I'm comfortable expressing my disdain for identity politics if nothing else. It only creates unnecessary "us vs. them" mentalities, and is just a means for politicians to easily box people into demographics for votes or for the more self-aware radicals to enforce a homogeneous stance against their enemies("I'm right on this issue, so clearly I'm right on all issues, and everyone who disagrees is Hitler.").
Quote from: jessica95 on December 01, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
I never had angry lesbians against me, or say anything bad of me. All those People who i heard was lesbian, was Nice to me.
I believe he is just referring to what could also be thought of as the radical feminist stereotype. (TERFs, all PiV sex is rape, etc. types.) In other words, the vocal minority, but because they are vocal they shape the stereotype to begin with.
Quote from: undautri on November 30, 2017, 01:34:05 PM
Because I look like a lesbian. That is how it affects me.
Beyond not being sure what a lesbian (or gay man or trans person) looks like, you know you do have some control of your appearance? If how you present yourself causes problems, presentation is in fact a hell of a lot easier (at least IMX) to change than say changing aggressive or passive aggressive behaviors or really any mental habits.
Also, I didn't bother to note this in my first response but you are aware of the irony in expressing both anger at a very large segment of the population, extending to some fairly harsh ideas about their effects on the state of the world and their effectiveness as activists (what some people now call she's).
Quote
I disagree, anger has caused nothing but detriment to my life. Articulate and firm people are what we need, not necessarily anger. We are currently living in a culture of reactive, blind rage and fear. It seems quite hard to find someone who isn't angry these days, even things as simple as a hair style people seem to get angry over.
And I acknowledge that there is a time and a place for anger... but the time and place is not when someone holds a door open for you.
Undautri, Gertrude et al, I think you're rather confusing anger with aggression. To be sure, I agree that when things can get done without getting to a point of anger that's great and sure, we can all single kumbayah my Lord etc. MLK, Gandhi and others renounced violence and set an examples for the rest of us that continue to guide how activism and protest are most effectively accomplished (Huey Newton, Malcolm X and others did not and it would be hard to argue that they weren't effective in effecting social change). None of these people renounced anger, here's what Gandhi said about personal anger:
QuoteI have learnt through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world.
If you only want assertive and articulate people in your movement then it's not going to be a very big movement. Yes we hopefully all strive for that
Important social changes anger has been a part of:
Compton's cafeteria riots, Stonewall, desegregation, the end of the Vietnam war.
About being part of LGBT&c, of course we are. We were at Stonewall. Because we tend to be more visible, especially when we can't or choose not to pass we are more likely to subjected to violence. We're also a much smaller demographic and while yes, there are trans specific organizations, we will never have the kind of lobbying or legal advocacy power of something like NOW. So having these people as allies is important I'm (ymmv of course).
I know the narrative is that it's not about sex or sexuality and that's true insofar as we know very well medically what happens in the brain in utero to make someone trans and that's not related to sexual preference. However many trans people are not sexually straight and probably the majority of transitioners can't strictly be seen as straight because, well if you change gender then unless you're asexual, you're probably going to be viewed and /or self identity as l, g or b at some point.
For my part, realizing I'm female has been a route to finally being comfortable in my sexuality and I count myself as lbpk. I came up in the queer leather scene and I can tell you that there are a lot of trans people in the lgbq arena, that's how I know so many personally.
For my part, I'm not at all a separatist and having identified as lesbian across a period when feminism was decidedly not intersectional and at least the lesbian groups I knew were open to time spent with ftm people, they pretty much excluded MTFs. So transitioning after so many years of that with local lesbian organizations having completely pivoted to being open to all feminine identified people has been a personally amazing thing.