So, my wife and I stopped shaving everything in the beginning of Nov. It was pretty nice, I must say. She is cis and I was amab. So, the effect of hair on my body is a bit different for me, since it strikes up memories of boy mode. Now that it is over we both hacked much of our bodies down....lol- she is WAY hairier than me. Anyhoo, I decided I am not shaving my armpits now, and probably won't for the entire winter. I think they are sexy with hair, which it contrary to what I thought I would feel about them due to my amab, and all. In the past I would cringe if I saw something like that in the mirror and would instantly feel dysphoria about it...it would scream MALE! to me. I see it as progress for me to keep them hairy and enjoy them. Just more letting go of that dysphoria. :)
Anyone else do the no-shave November thing? My sons do it and man, I love it when they hack those beards down. They're so handsome when they go from mountain man beard to groomed men!
Ainsley,
Maybe it just screams you are French. That is their style. Had any cravings for fries or toast lately?
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 01, 2017, 03:31:36 PM
Ainsley,
Maybe it just screams you are French. That is their style. Had any cravings for fries or toast lately?
Moni
I don't think so because when my wife's legs were hairy like a man's I was like Girl, you need a trim! I am pretty sure the French don't stop at armpits. ha!
Been eating lots of toast lately and now I'm seriously jonesing fir frites! Hmm, go out or just make them here? Tough call.
And no I didn't not shave my legs for November, in fact I shaved 'em for the first time in ages in honor of a visit to my electrologist for her to inspect Dr Wittenberg's work (she approved). In fact I waxed legs last night, so much better than shaving!! Was gonna post about how lovely it worked out later today.
Never have shaved armpits, I think it's time!
I will be interested in reading your leg waxing post. I have thought about it quite a bit.
I have never heard of no shave November. But I would never not shave my armpits. I don't have much underarm hair and it's very soft and of course it's white but I can't stand the thought of having hair under my arms. My legs have the same type of soft white hair but I have a thing about them being absolutely smooth before letting my boyfriend touch them. As for beards I totally hate them. I don't mind my boyfriends blondish red scruff if he hasn't shaved in a couple of days but a full beard is an instant turn off to me. The guy next door had a long bushy beard like a derelict. One day I was outside and he came out to get his trash cans in and he had shaved. I was totally blown away. He is really handsome and he's much younger than I had thought he was. It was amazing. I always thought if a guy had a full beard then he mjust have an ugly face and used the beard to hide it. I found out that's not always true. I just can't understand why a cute guy would want to hide his handsome face with a nasty beard.
This is theoretical cause I am with a woman, but I think a guy with a beard is kind of hot. One of the benefits of watching hockey at playoff time! If the beard is too long it is not attractive though. Of course, I don't have experience kissing with a beard involved so that is a possible sticking point. On me, I would rather have no hair. At Christmas I am doing an all out on my face to finish it up. If I have extra time scheduled after that the hair on the mons is going. I don't like the feel of it. Smooth is so much better. Let's face it, hair means friction. The rest of the genital area is already clear.
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 02, 2017, 04:38:39 PM
This is theoretical cause I am with a woman, but I think a guy with a beard is kind of hot. One of the benefits of watching hockey at playoff time! If the beard is too long it is not attractive though. Of course, I don't have experience kissing with a beard involved so that is a possible sticking point. On me, I would rather have no hair. At Christmas I am doing an all out on my face to finish it up. If I have extra time scheduled after that the hair on the mons is going. I don't like the feel of it. Smooth is so much better. Let's face it, hair means friction. The rest of the genital area is already clear.
Moni
I don't know about kissing a guy with a full beard but kissing a guy with scruff can hurt. A few times after I kissed Tristan when he had scruff I got beard burn. I had a sunburn like rash around my mouth from his stubble.
Ahh yes, my mons isn't bare and I'll start waxing soon as it needs to be, especially now as I've tested the recipe on legs.
And yes I can say authoritatively beards are hot. I've made out with a guy with stubble also bit less hot but it still works.
Beards are pretty hot on women also, also best when shorn kinda close. I'd post a picture to prove that but ...
Quote from: Julia1996 on December 02, 2017, 09:14:28 AMI just can't understand why a cute guy would want to hide his handsome face with a nasty beard.
Could be he's a trans woman trying to pass as male. That's why I had my beard for 30 years. It's pretty good camouflage.
I have always found women that did not shave their armpits hot. I find it empowering for them, too.
I asked my wife about kissing me back when I was in boy mode with my beard and she said it hurt sometimes, but she didn't mind it. She is a keeper!! We've been together 28 years, so we are not in the new love/new dating stage, and body hair, no matter where it is, will not be a 'turn off' for either of us. lol
I tried a beard back in the 70's, part of my trying to fit in time. My face does not grow hair uniformly so I looked moth eaten. Have been clean shaven ever since. One advantage of shaving daily. If you want to dress up you don't have to explain why you shaved because you are clean shaven every day.
Quote from: ainsley on December 04, 2017, 09:22:21 AM
I have always found women that did not shave their armpits hot. I find it empowering for them, too.
I asked my wife about kissing me back when I was in boy mode with my beard and she said it hurt sometimes, but she didn't mind it. She is a keeper!! We've been together 28 years, so we are not in the new love/new dating stage, and body hair, no matter where it is, will not be a 'turn off' for either of us. lol
I don't ever have underarm hair just because I don't like it. But if a woman doesn't want to shave I see nothing wrong with that at all. A lot of guys do though. My brother was looking forward to going out with this girl he was lusting over. He came early and said she had really hairy underarms and it skeezed him out. I wonder how women shaving got started. Before the 20th century and bathrooms people only bathed once in a while (Ewww) so I know they didn't shave their arms and legs. How did it become a beauty standard for women I wonder? Why not men too? They would look a lot better if guys shaved their underarms before wearing tank tops. My brother has birdnests under his arms. I don't know how deodorant can even reach his armpits. I would think it would just sit on top of all that hair.
Body shaving probably started somewhere around the early 1920's when the hemlines came up with the Flappers. Prior to that, women kept their legs covered. It is possible that women shave their legs before that if they were actors wearing skimpy stage outfits or if their job involved entertaining men but it wouldn't have been common practice.
As for shaving underarms, I primarily do it because I have found I get more body odor when I don't shave. I don't have much hair there in the first place so it only takes a few quick swipes to solve the problem.
Quote from: Dena on December 04, 2017, 03:00:41 PM
Body shaving probably started somewhere around the early 1920's when the hemlines came up with the Flappers. Prior to that, women kept their legs covered. It is possible that women shave their legs before that if they were actors wearing skimpy stage outfits or if their job involved entertaining men but it wouldn't have been common practice.
As for shaving underarms, I primarily do it because I have found I get more body odor when I don't shave. I don't have much hair there in the first place so it only takes a few quick swipes to solve the problem.
Actually Dena and I may be mistaken shaving started way back in the Roman Empire. Pubes and all. Also Homosexuality.
The Barbarians that raided Roman outposts used to make fun of the women in the Roman outposts for being totally hairless.
Although I may be mistaken but don't fault me on that. 8) :-\
Quote from: Julia1996 on December 04, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
I don't ever have underarm hair just because I don't like it. But if a woman doesn't want to shave I see nothing wrong with that at all. A lot of guys do though. My brother was looking forward to going out with this girl he was lusting over. He came early and said she had really hairy underarms and it skeezed him out. I wonder how women shaving got started. Before the 20th century and bathrooms people only bathed once in a while (Ewww) so I know they didn't shave their arms and legs. How did it become a beauty standard for women I wonder? Why not men too? They would look a lot better if guys shaved their underarms before wearing tank tops. My brother has birdnests under his arms. I don't know how deodorant can even reach his armpits. I would think it would just sit on top of all that hair.
At least 2 of my male friends are always going on about hair removal. One is particularly obsessive about it. Way more than some chicks I know. I don't know many girls who would Veet their buttcrack (much less tell everyone they do), or go to this extent every 2 weeks, but this guy does.
I would imagine the practice comes from each one of the sexes thinking they need to be as opposite from each other as possible, and most women seem to like the feeling of hairless body and men seem to like that on women too. So the practice stuck in places where people have access to ways to get rid of the hair.
Then again there are places like France, lol.
Quote from: Jenntrans on December 04, 2017, 03:17:34 PM
Actually Dena and I may be mistaken shaving started way back in the Roman Empire. Pubes and all. Also Homosexuality.
The Barbarians that raided Roman outposts used to make fun of the women in the Roman outposts for being totally hairless.
Although I may be mistaken but don't fault me on that. 8) :-\
If you look at our primate cousins you'll see homosexuality, rape, warfare, bestiality, incest, biga- or poly-andry. Going by memory, I forget which of these knuckle walkers do what to what, but homo sapiens didn't invent homosexuality in any way shape or form!
They've found shaving implements in tombs from other ancient cultures, Egyptian royalty were big on smoothness I believe. What the peasantry of their culture did would be a different matter, though. I'd guess like other commoners they were doing busy laboring to spend a half hour in the morning scraping hair off their bodies.
Quote from: Lucy Ross on December 05, 2017, 06:51:44 PM
If you look at our primate cousins you'll see homosexuality, rape, warfare, bestiality, incest, biga- or poly-andry. Going by memory, I forget which of these knuckle walkers do what to what, but homo sapiens didn't invent homosexuality in any way shape or form!
They've found shaving implements in tombs from other ancient cultures, Egyptian royalty were big on smoothness I believe. What the peasantry of their culture did would be a different matter, though. I'd guess like other commoners they were doing busy laboring to spend a half hour in the morning scraping hair off their bodies.
Animals are not prone to homosexuality. When they mount another male or female it is for dominance purposes only and not sexual gratification. Just watch canids and even those that we consider pets and family. They hump but not for sex unless it is a female being humped by a male when the female is in heat. So animal behavior and what humans consider sexual the animal is purely dominance over another in the same sex and not sexual. we humans tend to enjoy sex but animals do not. It gets really rough and even violent at times. Then... when canids are mating they do get stuck together. then it may come to biting or whatever else. Most men when it comes to women or even transwomen or other men if they are gay seem to want to roll off, have a cigarette or grab a snack and go to sleep. cnaids don't have that option because I have never seen a male dog eat a bologna sandwich, go wash off if need be or smoke a cigarette after. Sometimes they are stuck together for a time to insure that the mating takes hold.
Humans are different than Animals when it comes to sex, gender and coming together. Some people tend to see it as a type of natural homosexuality but it isn't. There is nothing sexual about it. It is just a dominance thing. This goes for troops, pack, herds or whatever else when the animal has a social type of hierarchy.
Humans enjoy sex but to humans it is less about mating than it is emotional connections. Even if those emotional connections last only for one night. :embarrassed:
Do we really need to point to the animal kingdom to justify our own sexual desires. Should we not face them head on with no excuses or reasoning? We are humans and we are higher in brain and mind functions than all of the other animals on the planet. So instead of looking to animals now let us look at the humans from the past and how different cultures viewed sexuality and gender identity. Many native American nations recognized a third gender. If you look hard enough you will find it. But judging humans by animal behavior to me and only in my opinion lowering our self perceptions to the level of beasts instead of humans. Yes primates and humans share a common ancestor but no gorillas have built sky scrapers or learnd how to make fire or learned how to invent a firearm to make war or learned how to harness the power of a substance like the tarry oil and invent and engine to go 300 miles per hour though internal combustion. Animals when in front of a mirror see just another animal. Humans see themselves and that is self realization.
As for the incest in animals that is pretty much why we have thoroughbreds or specific dog species and so on in animals. With the human genome it is a little different. Maybe a hundred thousand years ago not so much in humans but now it poses a big problem in brain and mind development. Humans are still animals but we are way different than the rest that occupy our planet. We past the animal mark a long time ago and now we are different. so what happens with animals and yes some people are more animal than human but we don't have to be.
Quote from: Jenntrans on December 06, 2017, 01:46:37 PM
Animals are not prone to homosexuality. When they mount another male or female it is for dominance purposes only and not sexual gratification. Just watch canids and even those that we consider pets and family. They hump but not for sex unless it is a female being humped by a male when the female is in heat. So animal behavior and what humans consider sexual the animal is purely dominance over another in the same sex and not sexual.
Scientific studies on Bonobo Chimps would disagree. They have an even more sexually exploratative 'society' than humans do. They appear to have sex for greeting, bonding or passing the time purposes, not just dominance. They have same-sex sex all the time; they have far more sex than human beings on average and have incorporated it fully into regular social behavior.
I'm not sure where you're getting your surety about dominance from. I've seen female dogs trying to hump other female dogs in the manner of a male without any of the hallmarks of dominance behavior, but they were definitely in heat, and it only occurred
when they were in heat, and not when they weren't. It certainly looked to me like they were just really damn horny, and they preferred this behavior with other female dogs over any male dogs present.
You'll find instances of complex sexual 'play' in almost all species considered highly intelligent. Including dolphins. This sounds to me like you're trying to distance human beings from the rest of the animal kingdom by claiming there's no such thing as complex sexual behavior comparable to that of humans in animals. You may not be aware of the number of studies racking up out there of animals being sighted - in the wild - engaging in complex sexual activity. But they're increasing. Humans are not as elevated from them as you might like, and animals are not necessarily as mechanical and "beast like" as you would expect.
Quote from: Viktor on December 06, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
Scientific studies on Bonobo Chimps would disagree. They have an even more sexually exploratative 'society' than humans do. They appear to have sex for greeting, bonding or passing the time purposes, not just dominance. They have same-sex sex all the time; they have far more sex than human beings on average and have incorporated it fully into regular social behavior.
I'm not sure where you're getting your surety about dominance from. I've seen female dogs trying to hump other female dogs in the manner of a male without any of the hallmarks of dominance behavior, but they were definitely in heat, and it only occurred when they were in heat, and not when they weren't. It certainly looked to me like they were just really damn horny, and they preferred this behavior with other female dogs over any male dogs present.
You'll find instances of complex sexual 'play' in almost all species considered highly intelligent. Including dolphins. This sounds to me like you're trying to distance human beings from the rest of the animal kingdom by claiming there's no such thing as complex sexual behavior comparable to that of humans in animals. You may not be aware of the number of studies racking up out there of animals being sighted - in the wild - engaging in complex sexual activity. But they're increasing. Humans are not as elevated from them as you might like, and animals are not necessarily as mechanical and "beast like" as you would expect.
Look Vicktor my whole point was that we should not be looking for answers of who and what we are. I see it in wild wolf packs all the time and dogs especially females will challenge the female alpha but not for pleasure. Hell it may itch even. ;) But in pack animals there is an alpha male and an alpha female. Hell I have a puppy and he was humping my male dog which is fixed the other day. Not for pleasure because the little lipstick did not even come out and the older dog is fixed but he is seeing what he can get away with in canid behavior. Once the older dog got enough then they went at it and the puppy came to me yelping. It is the same way with the older male and I have an older female and both are fixed yet they will hump one another but being fixed what pleasure can they have?
This is a highly debateable subject and I admit I don't live in a place where there are primates other than humans so I don't know too much about Chimpanzees but still do we need justification to love someone? The sensual thing seems to be with more social animals so dolphins ususally congregate in pods and have a certain type of hierarchy. It is the same way with primates I assume. Man is a primate yet we have enough intelligence and I have been screwed so many times in day to day life but not sexual though or anything resembling sex but I have been screwed our of money employers, screwed out of promotions and so on. I have been hit, cursed, condemned and persecuted. That is why I chose to tdo what I do for a living because I got so sick of being screwed out of money. Well animals don't have money they use brute strength and dominance. So yeah I tend to believe that studies like what you mentioned seem to be trying to justify loving your partner and pointing to nature. The other side uses the same argument that I do against it and loving your partner as being a crime against nature. I personally think we as humans are more complicated than animals. We are still animals but I have never seen a chimpanzee drive a car on the 405.
To be totally honest if there are animals that are homosexual I really don't care. If there are then there are. But I don't need it for affirmation to love someone that some other human may say goes against nature. Since when did love either for one day or forever a "crime against nature"? I mean even for a one night stand you feel emotions for the person. It may not last for more than whatever but even with what I have done there was some type of emotion. I have been with my BF for almost ten years so definitely there is something there and I don't really need to feel justified by nature because if someone don't like it or is offended by it then they know what they can kiss and where they can go and what they can do with themselves when they get there >:-).
But when you look at studies you also have to look at agendas to either prove or disprove something. Since there are studies that are so differing I do believe that one side of the argument is trying to prove something and the other side trying to disprove something.
But to be honest I don't really care. I am who and what I am and just because I am I am justified to be me. Now when it comes to anthropology then we can begin to understand why humans do what they do. But I am no animal psychic, may just a psychotic human but still not psychic so I don't know what dogs are thinking. I don't even know if they feel love the same way as we do and that goes for all animals. The whole religion thing and society is what gets me. We should not look anywhere else other than ourselves to be who we are. We should not have to look for any kind of justification because throughout human history there have been homosexuals, trans genders and hermaphrodites. In some ancient cultures Hermaphrodites were considered special. I mean Hermes and Aphrodite. Male and female in the same body. Now it is called inter sexed. Not near as elegantly named but still the same. Native Americans had MTF in their midst and would be taken as wives. About the sex I really don't know if the warrior had sex with them but they were revered enough if their husband died they would be taken in as another wife by another warrior or higher up in the tribe after they did their grieving like any other wife. Joan of Arc was a great warrior or leader but when she/he or whatever was of no more use the Church decided to end her/his life. Now she has been Canonized. So there is more through anthropology that supports sexuality and gender identity than you will ever find in the animal kingdom because we can understand the minds of humans more than chimps, wolves or dolphins. We should be looking for any proof through the ages of mankind instead of animals that can't even recognize their own face in a mirror.
The reason I pulled you up there is because you were stating that a bunch of stuff absolutely does not happen in the animal kingdom as if you personally knew it was the case and were an animal psychic as well as some sort of biologist who had studied it. I figured that you didn't really care, and that you also had an agenda in your statement you were trying to put forward.
The truth is that we don't know exactly the nature of homosexual activity among animals, or the reasons for. We can only speculate and gather data at this point. You don't know, and I don't know. One day scientists might know.
Obviously human beings are more complex in behavior than animals, but they are still animals and they have all the basic animal wiring. Until we - who can talk and recognize ourselves in mirrors and self-aggrandize 'till the cows come home - can answer the question of precisely why we ourselves engage in hetero- or homo-sexual behavior, we can't make serious statements about why animals do it, can we. But the main pull up point was that quite a few species do engage in same sex relations, and it can't be assumed to be purely aggression or dominance based, given the observations.
Anyway, OT: I have heard of this no shave November but I'm not sure its purpose. Is it a charity thing? Or just an opportunity for men as a group to be able to not shave for a while and see how it looks?
Quote from: Viktor on December 08, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
Anyway, OT: I have heard of this no shave November but I'm not sure its purpose. Is it a charity thing? Or just an opportunity for men as a group to be able to not shave for a while and see how it looks?
I am not sure about the reason, and it may have to do with deer season in the USA and the guys not shaving as part of their prep for hunting season? I don't know, but I know a lot of the men around here grow a beard for hunting season in Nov. At any rate, I must confess, I am well into a no shave December. LOL My wife had to wear a maxi skirt today because she is a shaving slacker, too. ha!
Quote from: ainsley on December 11, 2017, 07:09:24 AM
I am not sure about the reason, and it may have to do with deer season in the USA and the guys not shaving as part of their prep for hunting season?
It's about men's health awareness, especially about prostate cancer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movember (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movember).
I guess the awareness part of it is a fail. :-\
Quote from: KathyLauren on December 11, 2017, 10:49:35 AM
It's about men's health awareness, especially about prostate cancer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movember (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movember).
I guess the awareness part of it is a fail. :-\
https://no-shave.org/
Is is for Cancer awareness:
No-Shave November has been a tradition for many years, but it wasn't until the fall of 2009 that members of the Chicagoland Hill family decided to use it as a means to raise money for charity. It was a project that held special meaning to the eight Hill children after their father, Matthew Hill, passed away from colon cancer in November 2007.
Thanks for clearing that up - a Google search gave me some quite mixed results as to exactly what it was for in the present. Some people I know do the no-shave thing but it's never been mentioned to have anything to do with cancer or charity by them. It's like it's been absorbed into pop culture as a thing to do now with some of the meaning from the origin having been lost, at least where I am. (Although even then, not many people locally seem to have heard of it).
Well, I have, admittedly, co-opted No Shave November for my own purposes. However, since I am a stage 4 colon cancer survivor, I feel like it was ok to co-opt it. :D
Quote from: Viktor on December 08, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
The reason I pulled you up there is because you were stating that a bunch of stuff absolutely does not happen in the animal kingdom as if you personally knew it was the case and were an animal psychic as well as some sort of biologist who had studied it. I figured that you didn't really care, and that you also had an agenda in your statement you were trying to put forward.
The truth is that we don't know exactly the nature of homosexual activity among animals, or the reasons for. We can only speculate and gather data at this point. You don't know, and I don't know. One day scientists might know.
Obviously human beings are more complex in behavior than animals, but they are still animals and they have all the basic animal wiring. Until we - who can talk and recognize ourselves in mirrors and self-aggrandize 'till the cows come home - can answer the question of precisely why we ourselves engage in hetero- or homo-sexual behavior, we can't make serious statements about why animals do it, can we. But the main pull up point was that quite a few species do engage in same sex relations, and it can't be assumed to be purely aggression or dominance based, given the observations.
Anyway, OT: I have heard of this no shave November but I'm not sure its purpose. Is it a charity thing? Or just an opportunity for men as a group to be able to not shave for a while and see how it looks?
Viktor all that I know is what I have witnessed in Coyotes, Bobcats, Mountain lions, Wolf packs and other animals that pack to hunt with the exception of feline species, pack up to hunt and have a hierarchy. The felines have a totally different approach than canines. Felines will kill and eat their young because they may see then as a potential threat toward mating. Fox species will too. All I know is only what I have seen. Yes I tried to do the whole man thing.
When I was 18 and 20 I spent winters in Northern Wyoming in what some would call line shack in the old west. It was a commercial cattle ranch more or less but still the same work and freezing your ass off and building fires in a wood burning heater. the wood was there, the food was there to last the whole winter and I brought all my girly stuff. Even toys. :embarrassed: Wyoming winters last a long time and I was alone most of the time so... Don't judge Wyoming by what happened in the 90s with they gay guy because you will find killers everywhere and that includes NYC and LA. I would have to ride everyday looking for cows and yes there were wolves in the area along with coyotes that would pack up to hunt bigger game. I was privy to a horse, snowmobile and three wheeler ATV. I drove there with my own horse and Jeep also my own guns too. So when the weather was nice I would ride my horse out to check if any cows were in the area. I have seen so many coyotes, wolf pack and even a couple of bears on my outings and I would watch them.
So I can take biology in a college course and be a full blown PHD holder in Biology but I saw it firsthand though. I have no idea what the wolves were thinking. Maybe they are horny but never ever saw the little "lipstick" thingy come out of the male wolves humping other males. All I really know is what I have witnessed. Now when it came March and April and the early part of May they didn't hump anymore for what I would say dominance but they would fight for their Hierarchy and mating rights. Even in may it is still cold up there and I have witnessed the mating habits too. Dogs get stuck while mating and even I know that being from the south and having dogs. Wolves are no different because one time and only one time I have seen two coyotes mating when a black bear walked up on them and they could not come apart. Both snarled and would have fought even though a few minutes before they were snarling and biting one another. The Black bear left and went on and ended up finding the ->-bleeped-<- I left out for them.
But then again I don't have a PHD in Biology either but I have taken a some courses but I have no agenda to prove. Yet I do hold a degree in Psychology and will tell you right now that we do not need any kind of justification for what we do as humans. We are a species that is set apart from instincts of the animal kingdom. We know ourselves and whatever else including who we love and what who we feel attraction toward.
Viktor I am a trans woman and I feel attraction toward men. I don't need any excuse nor will I ever search for a reason outside of the human soul or spirit. If certain people or groups don't like it then they know what they can do and what they can kiss and my horse died from old age so I will saddle her up so they can ride her there.
So all I know is from what I have witnessed while sometimes carrying a "big stick that shot fire from the end" just in case but it is from first hand accounts. I have no agenda nor do I need funding by some political action group. I would love to see homosexual or trans gender species in the animal kingdom. But all I have seen is dominance and submissiveness. Now when a canid that is bottom gets a little hard and the 'lipstick comes out of the tube' for the one getting humped I may think different but I have never witnessed it personally. I have seen it come out of the dominate male though but that is just a reaction like being "drunk on power". But then again I don't know what a canine is thinking and PHDs in biology don't either.
Just be careful of science because scientists need funds from the governments in the way if grants. So the more you agree with a political party the more money you will receive when they are in power.
But there need not be any kind of justification for anything other than killing for self defense. We love who we love and we are who we are and Anthropology, Archeology and History has proven that humans can be trans or homosexuals by nature in some instances. Trying to explain the human mind with the animal's mind is sort of like taking away from the complexity of the human mind. It is no different than trying to compare human spirituality by religious doctrines.
So Viktor look past all of that that I laid out and just be you. Who cares? I do and you do and everyone else should too but the only person we matter too is our selves and that may sound selfish but not really. DNA is specific to a species. So we have about 93 percent the same DNA with Chimpanzees but we evolved and Chimps didn't. ??? What does that tell you? It tells me that humans are not Chimpanzees and somehow we have smart phones, the internet, learned how to rid and use horses, learned how to make fire from sticks and or rocks with a spark in a bundle of dried refuge. With all of that aside we learned how to make and internal combustion engine, harness the ages of our past and drill for it, learned how to be human, for some anyway. Now we know where we are in the Universe and can see the whole of the universe but I still think there is something we are missing though. ??? We know how to split atoms to release a great amount of energy to either power our cities or destroy others. We have been to the Moon and yes Chimps were sent into space but I don't agree with it because they had no choice. We as humans do.
So you see where I am coming from. Chimpanzees, our closest relative to the past, are sometimes cannibalistic. We are not except is some severe cases like the Donner Party in NV/CA. They did what they had to do to survive but I don't think anyone killed anyone except possibly for one that I heard of.
So Viktor don't worry about scientific facts. Get out and make your own mind up. It is so easy to listen to those that claim to know more but when you see things firsthand it ain't so easy anymore. Then you have to come to your own conclusions by what you witness. Take Climate Change for instance. I believe in it. Do I think mankind is causing it? Not so much because the climate has been much warmer and way more colder way before humans came about on the scene. Do I think mankind maybe influencing it one way or the other? Yes. But not enough to make as big a difference as Meteorologists and Climatologists are making it out to be.
So you really have to take everything into consideration like Climate Change. One thing I have never heard blamed for Climate Change is urban areas AKA big cities. This is another thing I have witnessed first hand while driving through Atlanta GA, Dallas TX, Houston TX and so on. How many big cities do we have in the United States? NYC, LA, NOLA, and on it goes. I went through Atlanta one winter and it was a little foggy on the eastern side and foggy on the western side but the closer I got to ATL the more it rained. It is the same with all big cities. So who is causing Global Climate Change? Those that live in the country that drive an F350 duelly or those that take busses everyday to work that live in an uptown Studio apartment claiming the world is going to end when ranchers drive their diesel pickups filled with hey to feed their horses. Can you really blame climate change on cow farts?
Why did I say all that? We tend to vote by what we believe and the more BS we are told and believe the more we will vote. Personally I believe everyone should let nature take back the cities and everyone should spread out evenly. Someone that is living in a space of 1000 square feet in an apartment for 2000 dollars per month, leave and go in lesser civilized areas. ::) I have been to LA, NYC Chicago, NO and other major cities and I feel more accepted by so called "dumb rednecks" than in these other areas that is non specific. Humanity is not limited by political beliefs, religious beliefs or even society itself. It is changing and we are evolving beyond that and the ones that don't evolve are the ones we have to fear. That is sociology. So Science seems to be a political arm for one party and Religion a political arm for the other side but humans are not political puppets just like humans are not religious puppets either.
You my dear are a human. I am too and I don't need an animal to justify who I am and what I am. I am just me Viktor. I will never use and excuse or anything else nor will I ever apologize unless I am wrong about something. I am nothing more than me and I am unique and sometimes even special. Hell we all are. :P
Science isn't flawless and nor are scientists, but I'm going to go with established peer-reviewed facts and observations on animal behavior over your claim. Especially since you're not an animal behaviorist and seem to support the idea you don't need scientific evidence to make sweeping statements about things. (Plus you said you don't even really care about the topic). Call it a biologist's prerogative to prefer the deductive nature of the biological sciences over the part-presumptive ones of psychology, which I don't believe to be a complete "science" as yet. Especially when so many people bizarrely seem to think evolution STOPS above the neck, and psychology has little to do with it, lol. It's almost as if they want to deny the biological realities human beings are also subject to, just like other organisms, in order to maintain blame upon "social constructs" isn't it...
By the way, I wasn't making any judgements on you or your life. I am only pointing out you don't have all the facts on why animals screw other animals of the same sex, and you seemed to have some sort of bias or agenda towards claiming they only ever do it for one reason only, and toward widening the separation between animals and human. I want to correct that because I was a biologist and I've seen bodies of evidence on animal behavior that would contradict your claim.
No apology or justification is expected here - but if you were in the science department of any university it would be. I dislike seeing assumptions presented as if facts. Odd to see from someone who holds a degree in psychology. But then social sciences and psychology do not operate like the other sciences. The social sciences seem increasingly prone to pump out a lot of assertions that cannot be proven lately, with increasing numbers of people within them actually denying established science (such as those who claim there is no such thing as biological sex) without much in the way of real evidence to back up their assertions. It's quite concerning in the case of that last example, and also when they bang on about men and women being identical biologically and mentally when it's clear even statistically that they aren't, and are ignoring whole bodies of psychology work, brain structural studies and so on. I'm not sure some of these people
are actually interested in 'doing science' at all, but rather in social change agendas. But I digress. (And I'm sure this matters about as much as a ball of lint to you and most others).
QuoteSo Viktor don't worry about scientific facts. Get out and make your own mind up.
It's quite difficult to take this, and what else you've said above, along with you saying you hold a degree in psychology, and honestly put any more faith in the social sciences. You've basically said
a) who cares
b) make your own mind up about things instead of seeking to establish facts with evidence
c) Any comparison with animals somehow dehumanizes human beings, so we shouldn't ever talk about how they are similar to animals, or perhaps you think there's nothing at all we can learn from animal behavior
d) are saying climate change can't be caused by farming practices (that's a big contributor to it apparently, but moreso the big industrial output nations like China at this point are. Perhaps ask my mother, she's one of the world's leading scientists on the increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and how the world's flora responds to those atmospheric changes, I'm not)
c) because chimpanzees haven't been to the moon etc. we should ignore all the aspects of animal behavior humans hold in kind with other mammals and especially great apes - too numerous for me to go into here until you want me to, though I suspect you won't - and somehow claim we're nothing like animals? That's just untenable. Human beings have more in common with animals like chimps in their behavior than they don't - everything from forming 'tribes', having wars (yes, several chimp troops have been recorded as having long-term wars between chimps from other regions), to the structure of their troop society, to the behavioral traits and proclivities differences in aggression and bonding behaviors between male and female chimps.
But yes, I get it. You don't really give a rat's for the subject, and you probably don't think biological science has much to do with human behavior. Which is disturbing considered you're post academic, but... not my problem I suppose.
Quote from: Viktor on December 11, 2017, 05:20:04 PM
Science isn't flawless and nor are scientists, but I'm going to go with established peer-reviewed facts and observations on animal behavior over your claim. Especially since you're not an animal behaviorist and seem to support the idea you don't need scientific evidence to make sweeping statements about things. Plus you said you don't even really care about the topic. Call it a biologist's prerogative to prefer the deductive nature of the biological sciences over the part-presumptive ones of psychology, which I don't believe to be a complete "science" as yet. Especially when so many people bizarrely seem to think evolution STOPS above the neck, lol.
By the way, I wasn't making any judgements on you or your life. I am only pointing out you don't have all the facts on why animals screw other animals of the same sex, and you seemed to have some sort of bias or agenda towards claiming they only ever do it for one reason only. I want to correct that because I was a biologist and I've seen bodies of evidence on animal behavior that would contradict your claim.
No apology or justification is expected here - but if you were in the science department of any university it would be. I dislike seeing assumptions presented as if facts. Odd to see from someone who holds a degree in psychology. But then social sciences and psychology do not operate like the other sciences. The social sciences seem increasingly prone to pump out a lot of assertions that cannot be proven lately, with increasing numbers of them actually denying established science (such as those who claim there is no such thing as biological sex) without much in the way of real evidence to back up their assertions. It's quite concerning in the case of that last example, and also when they bang on about men and women being identical biologically and mentally when it's clear even statistically that they aren't, and are ignoring whole bodies of psychology work, brain structural studies and so on. I'm not sure some of these people are actually interested in 'doing science' at all, but rather in agendas. But I digress. (And I'm sure this matters about as much as a ball of lint to you and most others).
Like I said Viktor all I know is what I witnessed in the wild. I have lived with these animals and may have become prey to them at one time or another. Can a PHD in Biology say that? I can at least. I have even fed them.
Just because I have a degree in psychology don't mean that I don't know nature.
The thing about biology is that it is not limited. I live in the deep south now and Alligators have their own behavior but down here they are the apex predator. In Wyoming the wolves were the apex predator. I have been in the water with Alligators. Have you? How many Biologists have? My guess is probably not many. That is the problem my friend, people think they know animals and I don't and no one does. They are driven not by reason but by instinct. I had a Coyote pup as a kid and it bit me. I hit that SOB so hard that it never bit me again. I almost killed it even. That may sound harsh but that is what the coyote does. My Grandma was 1/4 Ogallala Sioux so... She definitely believed in nature and always said she would kill my "dog" and make me a hat. She never did but she could have.
Look man. Science does not know animals. No on does. Either you are or you are not. Learning in a class room or video is way different than experiencing first hand.
Yes I am all about Psychology but don't count that out because animals have a psychology too and all their own. So understanding the mind is not just limited to humans but all beings in the animal kingdom. I just happen to understand and have been lucky enough to see wild canines, and I am lucky to have lived among them and even possible prey to them.
Ughhh! This thread's all scratchy and prickly. I'm springing for the
razors, please clean yourselves up ya bunch of porcupines! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
Yes, and I've kept a multitude of pets and seen plenty of animals in the wild. That's anecdotal, what matters are the statistics and number of wild observations in establishing facts. Also, by feeding them, you're altering the conditions of their behavior. Which is why scientists studying animals in the wild don't interact with them, or it's no longer the conditions of "the wild" for those animals, is it. They are not going to behave naturally when someone comes along and gives them free food.
Science, I'm afraid, is in a better position to establish the facts of animal sex behavior from thousands of collated studies than one person who claims they've hung around with alligators and "knows nature" and also has a bias against the idea animals are in any way close to human beings. I've been to some extreme places on this earth and studied plenty of animals myself, plus I go out and hunt frequently - but science is in a better position than I am on the whole to talk about animal sex behavior. I might possibly have encountered the gayest dogs to have ever existed but that doesn't mean I can assert dogs have an established culture of lesbianism, lol. Nor would I - I didn't say dogs or any other animal are homosexuals or have homosexual feelings. I said they've been spotted engaging in same sex activity above and beyond what might be required for dominance display. Nor can you seriously assert that they only ever do what they do because you've hung around with a few and think dominance is the only reason ANY animal EVER engages in it, because you 'just know'. As I said I don't know why they do it. But they do appear to do it for more than just dominance in some species. You seem to interpret the idea an animal may do it for more than dominance as some sort of threat to your notions of the human being's intellectual or spiritual supremacy.
But I do suspect like many sociologists you're putting human behavior down to constructs and not biological realities. That you think human behavior is without biological limit or that biology itself is without limit suggests this. Of course biology on Earth and therefore human beings have limits - food, water, air, carbon and genetics for starters. That you think biologists sit in classrooms also - no, the modern researchers of animal behavior typically go out into the field (wild) now to study because they have long since established laboratory or zoo conditions produce unnatural behavior or even mental illness in caged animals. Plenty of 'em are out there with alligators, et al. I was a marine zoologist so, yeah, I've been out there with aquatic life, in the wild, incidentally. And in deserts. I'm not a desk jockey whose closest encounter with anything natural is Google images.
Anyway, yes. Veering off topic here. Apologies to admins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwqFPwOYeQo
The man got it right. Body hair sux and I have even grown it but Holy Hell there is definitely a Hygienic factor involved. Hair holds sweat. Hair provides insulation sort of. I mean the times that I stopped shaving, at the end of the day just sitting and driving I could smell the difference and feel the difference. But then again it is all about preference and your body is your own. Personally I like mine hairless It is way easier to clean and way easier to dry after a bath or shower and if you have to go a day without it smells better. But a dermatologist told me that although shaving comes with it's own discomforts and hazards, being totally hairy does too and maybe even more so. Yes ingrown hairs suck but when hairless the clothing soaks up the sweat but with hair the clothing still does but the hair will also keep a small amount next to your skin and bacteria breed there. But then again you can get infected ingrown too. So...???
But it comes down to personal preference though. Personally I prefer a man to trim at least chest and legs and even underarms. They don't have to shave. On me I prefer hairless. It just seems cooler in a hot and humid area and I don't stink as much if I have to wear long pants, long sleeve shirt and so on. But hell if guys would try panties instead of boxers or tighties they may find the panties are way more comfortable. :embarrassed:
Is it not common for guys to at least trim their pubes? I asked my boyfriend to trim his and he said guys don't do that. I wasn't asking him to shave it, just trim it with clippers. I even him offered to do it for him but he doesn't want to. Just for looks I don't care if his pubes are bushy I just hate getting pubic hair in my mouth and teeth.
Quote from: Julia1996 on December 15, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
Is it not common for guys to at least trim their pubes? I asked my boyfriend to trim his and he said guys don't do that. I wasn't asking him to shave it, just trim it with clippers. I even him offered to do it for him but he doesn't want to. Just for looks I don't care if his pubes are bushy I just hate getting pubic hair in my mouth and teeth.
LOL Julia. Yeah it is pretty common for guys to trim their pubes. They just may not want you to know they do. But I will say that if you ask him too because it bothers you and he don't want to then maybe let him see. >:-) maybe even just stop going there until he gets the hint. :o
My BF had long hair on his chest which looks good but bothers the hell out of me when I lay my head there. I heard the same thing along with somewhere else too. It is really hard to be loving when it tickles you nose so much and you end up messing with your nose so much that you can't have "pillow talk" with your head laid on his chest. But then again we have been together for a while so. In the beginning I just dealt with it because I was too embarrassed to tell him. :embarrassed:
But like I said before it is preference and I can't judge anyone for what they do with their own bodies. But I can voice what I like to my lover though and ask them.