Idk if this is the right place to leave this, but the question is mainly geared towards trans guys.
I feel more recently now then ever, I am way more comfortable now that I am becoming passable
and finally blending in like a normal guy.
I' m even starting to get along with all the guys at work, and even more male customers are having open conversations with me.
It's even to the point where they'll walk right past my manager (who is female) and talk to me.
I asked her how she feels about that and she told me it's probably because guys gravitate towards each other
or because we work in a tech store they feel more comfortable asking a young guy.
In other words she didn't seem bothered by it.
So story time
I work with another trans guy who is obviously very feminine, he doesn't care to pass at all, (he's told me this and that's fine. To each their own) I use to be a feminine trans guy so I totally get it, we go to trans social groups and we hang out sometimes, but he and his SO who is non binary and I been friends with the SO before I knew him.
They decided to tell me I'm slowly becoming truscum and a "unconscious misogynist".
Yes, their words.
They also think I'm being pressured to be more masculine because I want to pass.
I brushed it off.
Last night me and him were closing the store.
One last customer came in and was asking about a laptop.
The customer was an older gent and if you ever worked with 80 something year olds,
It's not easy to answer their TECH questions in very detailed techy language we would normally use.
So i jumped in and explained it enough for the gentleman to understand better.
So the gent started talking to me, and he (let's call him cody) started to cut me off blatantly mid sentence.
The gent ignored him and kept talking to me.
After all that he shook my hand and said thanks young man and turned to cody and said you too "young lady".
It was that when cody told me I'm becoming too toxic for him and I changed once i started T.
(Yeah, I become more sociable and he isn't)
Next morning when we went to our group cody decided to do a piece on toxic masculinity in the trans community and brought the situation up.
I didn't take it personal. I let it go.
NOW the leader of this group wants to do a day once a week where transmen come in wearing dresses and I refused to take part.
I told this person I have nothing against it, but It would bother my dysphoria and she told me
I have to break out of my comfort zone and this "idea" that femininity is disgusting.
I not once said this or even implied.
So long story short, I am no longer part of this group and Cody told me that I'm letting my "male ego" get in the way of our friendship and I told him he's letting his feelings get in the way of it.
I don't care to reply to him anymore.
I'm insulted that out of all the people in the world, a trans person basically told me to ignore my dysphoria and dress like a girl which Is what I've done for years before coming out.
What type of crap is that? ?
Honestly, it sounds to me as if Cody's dysphoria is taking over his life, and he's using you as a scapegoat for him "not being masculine."
Not all transmen are comfortable wearing dresses, (I certainly am not!) and the idea of "everyone MUST wear a dress or ELSE!" is plain silly to me. Isn't being forced to wear female clothes what has caused so many of us dysphoria in the first place?
Wanting to be masculine does NOT mean you hate women. Often its quite the opposite for many. Having been forced to be female, many transmen have a larger understanding of how difficult Life can be for both cis and trans women.
Maybe its a good thing that this coworker has made you think about your relationship with him. He seem to me to have major dysphoria issues that he need to work on. Maybe its a good thing that you distance yourself from him until he get his own issues worked out more.
Hopefully you can find another group you can join. We all could use some kind of support at times.
Either way, good luck!
Ryuichi
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 11:15:43 AM
NOW the leader of this group wants to do a day once a week where transmen come in wearing dresses and I refused to take part.
I told this person I have nothing against it, but It would bother my dysphoria and she told me
I have to break out of my comfort zone and this "idea" that femininity is disgusting.
That's seriously messed up. Imposing conditions and/or experimentation on someone else's life or transition is completely toxic. Run like hell.
Yes some men feel pressured by society to be masculine but for others it's simply how they feel most comfortable. Dressing fem for the sake of it to make the point men can be fem; is pointless. If it doesn't make a guy feel comfortable then it's hypocrisy and dispels the point you were trying to make. You can't make a person feel comfortable expressing their gender a certain way.
jesus, reading this made me mad. this kind of thing, which i've seen a lot elsewhere in online communities and heard secondhand from friends who know other trans people, is exactly why i don't bother seeking any kind of "community" beyond occasional posts in this forum. i know people like that are out there and i am not ready or willing to deal with them. sorry you had to do so; it's got to be really hurtful to find a group/people you think you share something with and can get support from, only to have them treat you just as badly as others on the opposite side of the fence would.
The moronic idea of toxic masculinity comes straight out of an ideological agenda (feminism) and is a political buzzword used against men. This has nothing to do with being transsexual or not. Your friend could have been a cis-woman and that person would have spit out the same garbage to you or any other masculine man trans or not.
If the transpeople in your group all agree to that idiocy and support things like that I would start to ask myself if that group was ideologically/politically motivated and whether that's the type of people you want to surround yourself with. I sure wouldn't want that and in the group for transsexual men that I am visiting we don't have any brainwashed followers of any such radical cancerous ideology in our lines as far as I know of and people are different with different stories and ways and respect their differences from what I've seen so far.
Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 11:15:43 AM
What type of crap is that? ?
That looks like the blatantly man-hating side of current day feminist attitudes to me.
Trans men are by definition somewhat problematic to them. Someone drawn to masculinity and masculine expression? Those things they've spent the last 3 or 4 decades painting as the root of all evil? Perish the thought.
Since your friend told you you had changed since starting T it sounds like he is maybe jealous you pass and he doesn't. Wanting transguys to wear a dress to the support group is the stupidest, most insane thing I've ever heard. That would serve no purpose except to trigger severe GD. Why not hand out razorblades and cyanide pills with the dresses? In my opinion you're better off without the friend and the group.
there is a lot of shaming within the trans community which is ridiculous. you'll have people say about the masculine thing. some people will say you need this and that to be trans. it's all pretty ridiculous imo. i wouldn't be part of a group that said that trans men need to wear dresses either. that is trigger inducing like hell for a lot of people. i get where some masculinity can be "toxic" where you're degrading women, etc to be seen as "one of the guys" and what ever, and it's all just very problematic in that sense but to be seen as a guy and act as a guy in a way that isn't problematic isn't something that should be shamed. there's also tons of dudes who pass without being super masculine. crazy, really.
God that's messed up, I'm sorry you're having to deal with that situation. The reason most trans guys don't parade around in dresses wearing make up is because of dysphoria, forcing you to partake in that can be so damaging to a trans guys mental health. Do they not realise that? I'm not surprised you quit.
It honestly sounds like he's jealous that you now pass because of T and he doesn't, he's taking out his frustrations on you. It's so laughable the way people around you are acting. Trans people want to transition for the most part to go into society as the gender they identify with, that's what you're doing. When I started T I also became more social and able to talk to people and assert myself because people were seeing me for who I am and were treating me as such, I think that's a generic change that happens to most trans people as we're usually quite subdued and introverted before transition.
They seem like the toxic, damaging ones telling you what you should be able to do and how you should be acting. Why can't they just let you get on with your life and stop dictating how all trans people should act.
Oh man, I've wanted to make a rant post about this for so long but I never felt like getting cremated.
Like Meatwagon, things like this are the reason why I'm not involved in any sort of 'community' that's trans-geared.
I've always had masculine endeavors and preferences and nothing changed post-T: lifting weights, woodworking, welding, building stuff, etc., are all huge hobbies of mine. I dress like I did pre-T but the clothes fit 10000x better. Apart from my unfortunate past, there's nothing female/feminine about me because that's just who I am.
Those things are apparently not favorable and not to be proudly proclaimed because doing so perpetuates 'toxic masculinity' (a phrase so overused its rapidly losing its intended poignancy), something I always thought had to do more with misogyny.
There's almost this pressure to either retain or acquire this femme edge as a transman and, if you opt out, you're too dull for the rainbow. It's bull****.
If I'd been in the same situation as you in that group, there's no way in hell I'd have stuck around either. Furthermore, what's putting on a dress really going to accomplish? Femininity isn't disgusting in the slightest--I have nothing but admiration and respect for it--but it's not who a lot of us are and it's a ridiculous requirement to remain in a group that's supposed to be helpful.
To be clear, I have absolutely no qualms with the way anyone identifies or feels (NB, femme, genderfluid, etc.) but it very much seems that it's not reciprocated for binary guys in a lot of circumstances.
Unfortunately too many people equate what I consider a form of hyper masculinity with all forms of masculine expression. There is a legitimate argument that can be made against self destructive behavior by some men that ends up being harmful to society at large, ie., the idea that the only way to truly be a MAN is to be violent, misogynistic, without feelings, etc. A machismo if you will. However this is not at all the same as just being a masculine human being in general. Society tends to over correct it self and the pendulum can swing too far in the opposite direction. I'm not one of these guys out here beating my chest and shaking my fist in the air about THE FEMINISTS though. I find both sides equally annoying tbh. <Edited - profanity removed by moderator>
As a counselor my question for you is, is the group you attend a social group or a therapy group? I ask because the group leader requesting that you all wear dresses to step out of your comfort zone is not the correct way to manage group dynamics. I would find another group. Your co-worker is struggling with...something. My guess is you are further along in your journey than he in terms of solidifying your identity. If anything I would simply feel sorry for him. It has no reflection on you whatsoever.
I remember when the gay marriage debate really took hold. There was a ground swell of mainly gay men who were not on board because they felt the community was becoming to mainstream. That part of gay identity is bucking the norm and challenging socially accepted forms of relationship and sex roles.
I feel like the trans community does the same thing in a way, not about marriage though. Those of us that are NB or genderqueer or agender what have you, have a visceral reaction to trans folks that do fall squarely on a side of the gender expression binary. Especially the masculine side. I think they feel we are conforming too much for their liking.
Quote from: TransAm on December 28, 2017, 07:40:01 PM
what's putting on a dress really going to accomplish?
It would be signalling their virtues for them in return for being part of the collective. Not for the OP's benefit, it's for the person who was bothering the OP, and their agenda. If you don't signal the right virtues with them, you're obviously against them, etc. people like this usually see in black and white, and they've already decided men are a problem unless they become more like women.
There's no argument to be had with them. They don't respect masculinity or see any use in it whatsoever unless it's their version or idea of it, which is the totally feminized "defanged" masculinity... and you don't get much more subjugated than a dude agreeing to wearing a dress because he wants the heckling to stop. And they don't listen to men's concerns in general, I would bet if the OP said no, the response would invariably be "you're part of the cis patriarchal problem". If you somehow support men or something male, they have a tendency to assume this is automatically "taking something away from women". Or perhaps threatening the NB crowd, or something like that. Can imagine the uproar if someone female or female-identified was told feminine looks and clothes were toxic, lol.
Pretty much the only way to treat these types is to walk away and leave them to their nonsense, if that nonsense is going to dictate every encounter you have with them. It's a shame the OP has to deal with this from a support network. Clearly whoever this person(s) are they don't understand or don't care about what male identified transmen feel or have to deal with. A lot of this type appear to carry a mission to destroy the concept of biological sex and gender altogether, and you've become just another patch of the battleground for them.
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 28, 2017, 07:52:52 PM
I remember when the gay marriage debate really took hold. There was a ground swell of mainly gay men who were not on board because they felt the community was becoming to mainstream. That part of gay identity is bucking the norm and challenging socially accepted forms of relationship and sex roles.
I feel like the trans commdoes the same thing in a way, not about marriage though. Those of us that are NB or genderqueer or agender what have you, have a visceral reaction to trans folks that do fall squarely on a side of the gender expression binary. Especially the masculine side. I think they feel we are confirming too much for their liking.
To answer your first posts question it was a social group, that started out with like 3 trans guys and including me and 2 transwomen. It went from that, to being predominantly NB, and GQ.
That's imo when the group started going downhill.
I have nothing against NB or GQ, but it's like the trans guys who i used to get along with are trying to accommodate them by being meek and timid and expressing how awful masculinity is, and while I agree some of it is, it's not all bad.
I just saw pictures they posted of them wearing skirts and it's hard to believe because 5 months prior they would've never done this. I don't have a problem with it, I can't stress that enough.
But the irony of it all is real lol
Some of femininity is toxic as well. But we never hear anything about that.
Sounds to me like they're just not accommodating all types of people in the group. And if you asked them why they are not happy to accommodate men who do not want to put on tutus and whatnot, I wonder what their answer would be. That masculine men deserve to sit in the back and be quiet, I imagine.
I'd put it to them making people wear dresses might be a grand idea - provided for an equal amount of time everyone has to wear male cut suits. Or even better, how about dispense with the stupidity and each person express how they are comfortable expressing....
Quote from: Viktor on December 28, 2017, 08:22:09 PM
Pretty much the only way to treat these types is to walk away and leave them to their nonsense, if that nonsense is going to dictate every encounter you have with them. It's a shame the OP has to deal with this from a support network. Clearly whoever this person(s) are they don't understand or don't care about what male identified transmen feel or have to deal with. A lot of this type appear to carry a mission to destroy the concept of biological sex and gender altogether, and you've become just another patch of the battleground for them.
Honestly, losing the group or Cody isn't a issue to me, my problem is forcing transmen basically back in the closet to accommodate their personal hatred of men.
It's even more insulting when I do not think of women or femininity as less than or weak
I am the first person to stand up against stuff like that.
I hate using this word, but it's problematic to put masculine trans men in dresses.
Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 09:04:36 PM
To answer your first posts question it was a social group, that started out with like 3 trans guys and including me and 2 transwomen. It went from that, to being predominantly NB, and GQ.
That's imo when the group started going downhill.
I have nothing against NB or GQ, but it's like the trans guys who i used to get along with are trying to accommodate them by being meek and timid and expressing how awful masculinity is, and while I agree some of it is, it's not all bad.
I just saw pictures they posted of them wearing skirts and it's hard to believe because 5 months prior they would've never done this. I don't have a problem with it, I can't stress that enough.
But the irony of it all is real lol
Here in Philadelphia we host the annual Trans Health Conference. I stopped going because it feels like the NB and GQ crowd began to outgrow the trans crowd. This is probably why social groups are having the same problem.
Actually, I'm not using the acronym GQ for gender queer anymore as it is reserved for a masculine publication which I have a subscription to lol.
This sort of shaming is so wierd to me.
whereas youre being shamed for being too masculine or binary along the masculine side, trans women seem to have to endure the opposite shaming of not being feminine ENOUGH.
Why cant people just mind their own business
Its such a double standard and unfortunate that even among our own communities we have to conform to certain ideals.
You'd think as trans people we would understand other peoples needs to exist within the spectrum and not have to fully be masc or femme.
And specially not to shame others for being too masc or not femme enough.
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 28, 2017, 11:51:04 PM
Here in Philadelphia we host the annual Trans Health Conference. I stopped going because it feels like the NB and GQ crowd began to outgrow the trans crowd. This is probably why social groups are having the same problem.
Actually, I'm not using the acronym GQ for gender queer anymore as it is reserved for a masculine publication which I have a subscription to lol.
What's funny to me, is that a lot of the I guess popular NB's present masculine. (Ash Hardell, Milo Stewart, Jake Edwards)
That's horrible! Let's call this what it is, misandry disguised as feminism. Now that you pass, you are the enemy.
:police: I have edited a couple of posts that were infringing on TOS 9 & 10. Let me remind everyone to be careful in what they say and how they say it. :police:
Quote9. If you disapprove of people who are Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual; or activities which cross gender boundaries; take your arguments to a more appropriate website.
10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others.
Suggesting that Trans people are not really men (FTM) or women (MTF).
Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.
Your friend doesn't seem to understand or accept you at all, or to even be willing to try. It sounds like he demonised you for no good reason at all, but I'm sure he had his reasons. Masculinity isn't toxic in and of itself and it's not wrong either, just like feminity isn't either. But sure, there are toxic aspects of both as well. But we don't choose what way of expression makes us comfortable or not, and that should be respected. Just like any of our boundaries. Also, forcing/coercing trans men to wear dresses seems incredibly messed up. It would have been fine if it had been an open choice like "for anyone who wants to" though. I thought the purpose of a trans group was to offer support to trans people, not to purposely trigger their dysphoria. I don't know if it's just willful ignorance or maliciousness, but either way, I think you made a good choice to run away from there och also keep the friend at a distance. If it was me though, I think I might have taken a dress and worn it tied around my waist over my regular masculine outfit, or around my neck like a scarf, just to mess with them cause that's how I like to rebel sometimes. (But maybe that's just me).
Wow, that is some toxic crap. I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing a dress either. Yeah, I did so in the past just like you, I mean they realize that, right?
Of course you have a male ego, you're male. Seems like "cody" is jealous that you are passing more and projecting a lot of his own issues on you. <expletive deleted> that whole toxic lot.
<Edit of unacceptable language by moderator>
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 28, 2017, 07:52:52 PM
I remember when the gay marriage debate really took hold. There was a ground swell of mainly gay men who were not on board because they felt the community was becoming to mainstream. That part of gay identity is bucking the norm and challenging socially accepted forms of relationship and sex roles.
I feel like the trans community does the same thing in a way, not about marriage though. Those of us that are NB or genderqueer or agender what have you, have a visceral reaction to trans folks that do fall squarely on a side of the gender expression binary. Especially the masculine side. I think they feel we are conforming too much for their liking.
I think you are right about this. I think some people even romanticize trans people mid transition and get annoyed when we complete our transitions and blend in with boring cis people. (Some of the people who are obsessed with this are ->-bleeped-<-s. Which is gross because you've eroticized the consequences someone else's self harm (that is, being in a chronic dysphoric state).)
Quote from: Viktor on December 28, 2017, 09:09:36 PM
Some of femininity is toxic as well. But we never hear anything about that.
You know, that is true.
You do hear about that in 2nd wave lit but it's not a well formed notion. Femininity is cast as the creation of patriarchy to bring women down, which of course is not true, but it seemed logical in a world where women in the workplace and in the home were forced to conform to a certain standard of femininity which was policed by men. That was horrible and oppressive.
Women absolutely do bully and police other women for not conforming enough, just as men do to each other. This absolutely does get talked about in feminist media a lot although I don't think there's a blanket term for it.
Quote from: kayla1618 on December 29, 2017, 12:15:26 AM
You'd think as trans people we would understand other peoples needs to exist within the spectrum and not have to fully be masc or femme.
Seriously. We are all going through the same pain. It seems like whatever decade within the trans community there is this push to balkanize into subgroups by sexuality or gender spectrum.
Quote from: RedSoxMichael on January 20, 2018, 10:24:02 AM
I think you are right about this. I think some people even romanticize trans people mid transition and get annoyed when we complete our transitions and blend in with boring cis people. (Some of the people who are obsessed with this are ->-bleeped-<-s. Which is gross because you've eroticized the consequences someone else's self harm (that is, being in a chronic dysphoric state).)
I realized I was harsh on the NB community as it's not all of their faults either.
But I agree with the romanticizing of the trans people among young cis girls and NB people.
Especially trans masculine identifying people.
I think that's when the trans movement went south for me. Everyone wanted to twist it and make it their own.
That group was really toxic because they went out their way to portray these fantasies in real.
I'm not the one to undermine someone's transition or trans status whatever you wanna call it,
But when you say you are trans with no dysphoria that really rubs me wrong.
I think most of what I think has been said.
I'm really glad that the people at Susans are accepting of every type of trans person. Where I live there is a trans group too and they are fairly into the nonbinary/anarchist thing. Which is fine but I know quite a few transguys in the area who don't go to their meetings because of it.
I think a lot of men (and by implication transmen) deal with socialized shame towards (their own) masculinity. This is really ->-bleeped-<-ty. Healthy masculinity is nothing to be ashamed of.
Quote from: November Fox on January 20, 2018, 11:54:41 AM
Healthy masculinity is nothing to be ashamed of.
Agreed!(We just haven't been given opportunity to see what it looks like yet)
Quote from: November Fox on January 20, 2018, 11:54:41 AM
Healthy masculinity is nothing to be ashamed of.
This is so important. As I take in all of the news about the #MeToo movement and come across story after story of violence committed by mainly unhinged young males, I am reminded of how important it is to promote and cultivate models for healthy masculinity. It's so important. I think the shaming of masculinity you see in the trans community and in society at large right now is born out of pendulum swinging hard in the opposite direction as as pushback towards toxic masculinity that has gone unchecked for eons. Ideally the pendulum comes back to center. But men and women alike have to teach men that to be a man does not mean violent, mysoginist, sexually aggressive, emotionally repressed neanderthal. In our community add to that the issue of gender identity and expression and we'll, it's a powder keg.
The main problem here is people are now equating normal male behavior with sexism and "toxic masculinity".
For example.
The other day I was watching a Jarmusch film called Paterson. There is a scene in the film where two guys are sitting next to each other on the bus talking about women. If you watch the movie there is nothing they say to each other that could be construed as hateful (i.e. misogynistic) toward women, they are only talking about the attractiveness and potential for a date of two women each of them had met. They both were interested in the women and I assume were hoping to meet them again, or for their interest to be reciprocated. The way they speak is quiet and relaxed, it isn't loud and obnoxious, the way they talk about the women is as if they (the men) are the passive actors in the situation, waiting for the women to show interest, not trying to force themselves on them or anything. If it was meant to be a nudge-nudge wink-wink sort of thing it was the subtlest and most harmless I have ever seen. Halfway through their conversation, a random female stranger gets up to leave the bus and gives them a dirty look as she leaves. The main character, who has been listening to the conversation sees this and stops smiling as he is listening to the men talk.
So you have two men talking about their interest in particular women and a third listening and empathizing with them, then a woman walks past and they all shut up, and the main character listening suddenly thinks about it from her point of view and stops smiling.
Fine.
Except what they were talking about and the way they were talking about it was hardly misogynistic or deserving of a dirty look. How many times had the main character heard a woman on the bus complaining about men, I wonder. Or a wife about her husband. Like I have in real life. Did men walk past and give dirty looks in response? I doubt it.
So then I happened to be reading a review on the film and whoever was reviewing it for The Guardian claims that: "There is a very real, nuanced moment when, listening in to his passengers' conversation, Paterson starts smiling at the machismo of a couple of bragging, sexist guys – but a female passenger frowns at them while getting off: Paterson sees that and thoughtfully corrects his own smirk."
That's right, men being interested in women, and talking about them (in non-derogatory way), is sexist.
This is a good example of the problem right here. This is perfectly normal, harmless behavior for men to engage in. No woman is being insulted, no woman is being treated like dirt, in fact the women are clearly the object of admiration and desire of the men, made evident by the way they speak about the encounter. They are not broadcasting it to the entire bus, at least it's not implied they are. It's a private conversation only they are having, that the driver is able to overhear, and the women who passes them while leaving the bus. But it's interpreted as two men being utterly skeevy about women. It's interpreted as bragging. If that scene was bragging, it was rather subtle. And what were they bragging about? Having slept with the women and dumped them after? No. One was "bragging" (or more likely excitedly relating, almost like a little boy) about how he had a nice conversation with the woman and how she was keeping eye contact with him. The other talked about how the woman he was interested in was being flirtatious and gave him her number. It was kind of sad really, how that scene felt to me - two guys so happy about the fact a woman looked at them or even talked to them. And even sadder that some idiot at the Guardian interpreted this as sexism.
It will be a miracle in the near future if men want to have anything to do with dating or with sharing their emotions at all if we are at the point where just talking about women is some kind of sin. The movie implies it's bad to talk about women, and the review implies it's sexist to open your mouth about them too.
But let's take the script and flip it shall we?
Two women talking on a bus about two guys they had met. One says,
"So you know that cute little guy who works at the Doner place?"
"Yeah, yeah, he's pretty hot."
"Turns out he was in my neighborhood. The other day after I came home from work, tired, I'm having a drink, I hear a knock at the door, I answered it and it was him. he was looking really good."
"So what happened?"
"We just talked there at the door for a while... he was laughing a lot, making eye contact... he wanted to hang out, you know?"
"What else?"
"We had a nice conversation but I was really tired, I hadn't showered or anything, so he left. But I think he was into me. You know?"
"Oh yeah, for sure. These guys are out of control."
[This is the point in the film a woman walks past and gives a dirty look].
Would that be sexist and should a man have walked past and given them the daggers?
If that's sexist I'm the Pope. It's like the movie actually went out of its way to make the conversation as sweet and nice as possible and a woman still gives them the eye.
I think we need to recognize what the hell sexism is actually supposed to be and stop equating it with everything a man might do or say. I find it highly disturbing. And more and more men I know are choosing not to risk relationships with women at all... I think that's down to several factors but the fact we aren't apparently even permitted to speak about women without being called pigs isn't helping. It's also a huge double standard, since the women I know will freely drool over men, as well as call them for all kinds, without anyone being upset.
If people think we can live in a world without any risk at all, without any possibility of hurt feelings or having to deal with a man's feelings by crushing men further and further into a box they do not fit into, or by "training" men to be more like women, not only does that leave you open to the truly predatory men out there, who will refuse to be trained and will be able to walk right through all the men who have been trained not to stand up for themselves or others to get whatever they want, but we are probably actually causing mental illness in men by thinking we can even do this. Our school systems are already better geared for teaching female children than male ones, and I am surprised to learn the extent of the pro-female sexism that we are heaping on kids these days. I have read that here in the UK there are far more female teachers than male ones and many have admitted giving higher scores to girls out of their own bias toward women. They also have admitted to punishing boys for being naturally energetic, and children in the US have had this happen to them as well - dosed up with pills for not sitting still and quiet for long enough in school, diagnosed with various disorders etc. We already know this affects boys more than girls, from the statistics. I know over here, energetic activities are slowly being done away with for children on the grounds of safety - they even banned playing tag for god's sake. But masculinity in general is being treated like a disease. It has to stop or society is going to create several generations of very, very screwed up men and that is never good.
The only place I have seen boys less affected by this society-wide grudge against them is in private boys-only schools, where the teaching is specifically geared for them and the intent is that their parents pay to have them excel. This is awful that only those boys whose parents have the money to send them to such places can really see them get the teaching environment that works well for them. Personally I think segregation based on sex is unnecessary in schools and shouldn't have to occur, but if the current situation is that if boys and girls learn together than everything should be geared to make only the girls comfortable (or indeed that boys are graded down just for being boys) this is also wrong. A compromise has to be made.
We sorely need some common sense brought into male-female relations and what society thinks they should be like, because at the moment they are insane. There can actually be a good balance. I believe we hit it and overshot it about 10-15 years ago. When there was increasing respect for women, but not some flat-out hatred and demonization of men. Now it's simply gone too far. A generation now believes everything around them is sexist, men are inherently evil, women are inherently good and pure, and that women deserve revenge against men. None of those things are true.
This thread has likely already been talked about in earnest, but they completely missed the point of what "toxic masculinity" is supposed to mean, assuming we're saying it exists.
Toxic masculinity is meant to refer to the extreme necessity of cisgender males who are homophobic/transphobic to not show ANY behavior or emotion that could constitute as feminine, and to shame and degrade other men who do not follow the masculine culture. Can they follow the "typical" masculine culture, yeah, but as soon as they do it to the point they're afraid of losing their masculinity by acting the wrong way and trying to enforce it on others, THAT'S toxic masculinity.
Those people are basically becoming the thing that they hate, and they don't even know it
Yea, I used to be like that at times, WolfNightV4X1, pre hrt. Aquawhatever, I think that cody was superimposing his will on you. Guys, can sniff out other guys, almost pheromonic I say. 5 years hrt MTF, guys nowadays just pass me up and attend to rugged dudes, over femmydude/her?(ie.me) at carparts places, home depot, automechanics places, welding shops. Having the group leader making you uncomfortable in wearing a dress, is a no no, if you don't want to do it, find another group.
Funny true story(ie.for me)similar to aquawhatever experienced the other day: I was at a tire/automechanic shop, having a passenger side cv boot/halfshaft replaced on my car(I bought the part), but could not remove it at home(i.e.guess I lost a lot of upper body strength/shrugs). So I am watching the mechanic take out the halfshaft at a lift, so I can do it at a later time and date on my cars(ie.save me the $140 I paid to have the part removed and replaced), mechanic dude advertently farted to get(i.e.femmydude/her) me away(i.e.school trained in small engine/diesel/automechanics/very little experience), I did not flinch an inch, and just focused on his workmanship and once I seen what I needed to know, thanked him, then I went my own way. No offense taken, just know dudes do that to get other undesirables away.
In my manly days, in the USMC, we used to have farting contests, you talk about disgusting and wanting to truly vomit at the smell, whoever dry heaved and/or vomited first, lost the bout/fight, it was hilarious, but turned disgusting after a time, so I know the drill.
It's just plain bullying. No rhyme or reason to it. Don't let this person upset you because they're trying to.
Yea, what Karl says, Cody is feeling insecure. Been bashed before too, especially because I won more, specific military awards, then my military brother. Scenario goes something like this:"Yea, you won more rifle and pistol awards than me, but I'm duel cool aka force recon, jump and scuba, MFer", I was like I can shoot straighter than you Mfer, but in my young mind, I was WTFO, he just wigs out at times because of it, even today, 30 years after the fact.
Trying to be the top dog, him, not me.
I think Cody has a lot of insecurities and he probably resents the fact that you pass better. I think it is absolutely out of place for one trans person to judge another on being either too masculine or too feminine. One of the things we learn is that we can build our identity as we see fit, so he should be able to respect your gender expression just as you respect his.