Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm noticing a pattern of alot of young trans kids around my age or younger have this thought that you do not need dysphoria to be transgender..

I honestly want to here from people who feel this way but please who ever reads feel free to share your honest and respectful thoughts because this is not a hate thread or anything like that.
I just want more open discussion on it and too understand the other side.

I will share my opinion on it.

I think it's harmful as someone who had crippling dysphoria to the point of wanting to end it all many nights.
I don't think being trans is the worst thing in the world, but it's not the greatest either.
I honestly thought that
Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis for someone transgender just like psychosis is for someone who is psychotic.
(God I hate that I had to compare the two in that sense but you know what I mean!)

I can't imagine how someone can be trans with no dysphoria at all!
I don't understand why someone would want to be trans with no dysphoria.

I've heard people counter that argument by saying they just ARE men/women/NB etc
Not trans.
But even so if a cis female woke up with male genitals she'd be mortified I'd imagine.

I can go on forever about the arguments for this.


Anyways...

Let's see how far we can get in this conversation before it gets locked.
Hopefully it won't lol.

I don't understand it either but I think it comes down to a matter of how you define trans.  Is it:
- A mental state of incongruent brain and body sex/gender (dysphoria)?
- The physical act of altering one's physical sex or gender presentation?
I don't think there is really any consensus on which of these is the definition but they mean two different things.


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Like, no dysphoria ever? My earliest memories are of gender dysphoria so I would consider dysphoria something I've felt all my life, but I've also had periods of my life when I was perfectly content to live as a woman, with no dysphoria. Those periods of my life do negate the fact that I am transgender. 

I guess it is possible these kids who don't have dysphoria are calling themselves trans simply because it feels like the cool thing to do or they're seeking acceptance they feel as though they otherwise couldn't get from their peers. It's also possible they truly are trans. I don't believe it's our place to judge, nor does it affect me personally as a transgender person. Everyone experiences life differently.

I would liken it to food allergies. I could die if I ate a piece of traditional cake (legitimately, life sucks sometimes), whereas someone else with the same allergy as me might just vomit until it's out of their system. We may have the same diagnosis/allergy, but are on different ends of the reaction spectrum. It's unfair of me to say their allergy isn't legitimate simply because they react differently than I do.

I didn't feel like I had dysphoria, my goal was to feminize my male body. Someone pointed out that wanting to change your body is  dysphoria in its purest sense. This was in the context of whether someone male identified but presenting female (me) could approach a doctor for HRT. It turns out that the answer is yes.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I've thought about this a lot lately, posted in one or two other threads on the topic even.  I hope what I am a bout to say isn't contentious, but regardless, if it is, I mean it as neutrally as humanly possible and in no way intend to judge others.

So, where I am at right now with this issue is that dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender, but perhaps is a defacto requirement to be transsexual (with allowances mentioned below, and the defacto explained as well). This hinges on the use of the umbrella term incorporating non-conformation to gender norms in relatively minor ways, beyond the common associations to transsexuality or more evident non-conformation and presentations such as with crossdressing/drag. This also inherently means that potentially less symptomatic identities, such as  non-binary and non-conforming gender expressions, are largely a matter of self-identification, and cannot be denied those who wish it.

Having said that, I do believe there are a large group of modern youth who have latched onto the transgender identity as a way to define themselves or rebel, similar to suburban white kids feigning hip hop personas. (I believe this may be the group that perhaps shaped the feelings behind the original post.) Essentially, there are people who self identify as transgender for potentially less than honest reasons, and to them it is more about progressive political cred, rebellion against tradition, or simply wanting to be something more than a random white kid without anything special about them in the eyes of society (because let's be honest, those types are overwhelmingly white middle and upper class kids). However, I do not believe that any of us the right to judge another individual, and that we must take everyone at face value as much as humanly possible. (Essentially, I draw a line between what I view as a probable social phenomena and how I would handle it on a person to person basis.) Is there harm? Probably not anything substantial, but at the same time it can feel a bit disrespectful. To return to the feigned hip hop personas of years past, kids would often adopt and lay claim to urban culture, yet at the end of day they would not share in the suffering that so many experienced within that culture. Likewise, someone may lay claim to being transgender, but do not share in potential dysphoria, depression, and so forth. In a few years, they may graduate college, forget about the whole thing, and go on to live a completely cis-hetero-normative life. And good for them, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. A lot of that can be more than excused in the name of personal exploration, though I do admit I would probably prefer a little less radical politics in the meanwhile. (Ie: Try not to speak for a group unless you are as sure as you can be you are actually part of that group is just a good standard for anything. If you joined any organization 2 weeks ago, probably not a good idea to start putting out your own press releases. ;D)

Ultimately, though, the world is a matter of degrees. (Not to delve off topic, but this is true in everything. Matt Damon was, in my view, recently unfairly attacked for his comments expressing this in regards to sexual harassment vs rape and pedophilia, and I believe we have to recognize the fact that there is no one size fits all for life.) You can have different degrees of a condition, require different types of treatment, but still share the condition--and it still not be a competition. For instance, if two people have the flu, one very light and the other quite severe... It doesn't mean that both don't have the flu, or that the person with a more severe flu is "flu-ier". Likewise, while someone with dysphoria may have a more severe condition, it does not make them "more transgender" than someone with a smaller degree of or no dysphoria. (This was a very destructive hang up for myself, as I believe for a long time I didn't qualify or was pretending to something I didn't deserve, simply because I was never suicidal or driven to extreme hatred of my body. Was a large source of confusion for me that took a lot to get past in order to begin transitioning.)


Allowances To the seeming lack of presence of Dysphoria and Transexuality:
- Not all dysphoria manifests the same. I know mine didn't. Just because someone does not have evident dysphoria in the same way as any other person may, it does not mean that dysphoria does not exist. Dysphoria is also tricky to recognize, and so there may be large degrees of dysphoria that an individual simply does not know is dysphoria. (This was the case for me for many years, as I compare myself past and present.) Some/most of us were not fortunate enough to recognize things for what they were when we were 15, much to our current chagrin.

Use of the word defacto:
- Surgery and hormones aren't something to be taken lightly, and the overwhelming majority of people do not do so (hence the low detransition and regret rates). In order to desire surgery and hormones, there is some driving force, that something most likely being dysphoria. Therefore, it stands to reason that dysphoria is often a prerequisite to transsexual transitioning. There are exceptions, and everyone is unique, this is simply what I believe is the case in the statistical majority.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 20, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
I didn't feel like I had dysphoria, my goal was to feminize my male body. Someone pointed out that wanting to change your body is  dysphoria in its purest sense. This was in the context of whether someone male identified but presenting female (me) could approach a doctor for HRT. It turns out that the answer is yes.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I've never been able to fully grasp the nature of your experience as you describe it, but then I remind myself that grasping it really isn't part of my job description.

I  dont identify as trans because of my dysphoria, dysphoria helped me identiy that i am trans. Thats the best and simplest way i can describe it.

That makes no sence i know but it does to me

I don't get it either.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 01:33:50 PM


I've never been able to fully grasp the nature of your experience as you describe it, but then I remind myself that grasping it really isn't part of my job description.

Not understanding me but treating me as an equal is all I can ask for.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Not understanding me but treating me as an equal is all I can ask for.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I have a vague concept after thinking about feelings I had at one point. During the period where being trans wasn't on my conscious radar, I nonetheless would look at certain things in entertainment (usually anime for this) or porn and wished I were a far more feminine male. ("Otoko no Ko" as per Japan style, or "femboy"ish in western, usually porn, terms.) In my case, it was a somewhat less earth shattering outlet for my true desires, a stepping stone of sorts, but nonetheless I thought about it for sure. If I were younger when I started, I might even have considered making a layover in that territory to see how I felt, though I have a feeling it wouldn't have lasted very long.

Following medical definitions, it is possible to be transgender (i.e. having a sense of identity at odds to some degree with the gender one was assigned at birth) without dysphoria.  In this sense, one could have a gender variant identity, but neither be bothered by it or feel any reason to do anything about it.

That said, I do think we are starting to encounter some "camp followers".  I was once berated by a teen girl, AFAB, who presented 100% female, for having the audacity to refer to them as "she" in a casual conversation during which I was given no cues to direct me otherwise.  It is a bit dreary to lift the millstone of being transgender every morning and plod dutifully onward, only to be called out as a phony by someone who doesn't appear to struggle with it at all.  Of course I can't read their thoughts.  I did, however, get the distinct impression that they found the interaction fun.  Screw that.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 05:37:48 PM
I was once berated by a teen girl, AFAB, who presented 100% female, for having the audacity to refer to them as "she" in a casual conversation during which I was given no cues to direct me otherwise.  It is a bit dreary to lift the millstone of being transgender every morning and plod dutifully onward, only to be called out as a phony by someone who doesn't appear to struggle with it at all.  Of course I can't read their thoughts.  I did, however, get the distinct impression that they found the interaction fun.  Screw that.

I've been told this is pretty commonplace in high schools now.

I don't (or extremely rarely) experience gender dysphoria. Occasionally I have dysphoric thoughts, however this is more often than not linked my bipolar depression making me view everything in my life in a dysphoric way (including gender).

If anything it is better to describe my transgender feelings as euphoria. When I was young (age 3-4), I used to dress up all the time and my mum would ask why i did it. I would say things like "I liked doing it", "It felt right". I never recall bad feelings or anxiety returning to my male gender.

In some of my past sexual experiences, it was not so much that I hated my body as much as I could only get aroused if I imagined I was a woman. Once again, this wasn't dypshoria, but more like I needed to affirm my gender to achieve a feeling of realness about myself.

Before transition I spent about a decade imagining what it would be like and how nice it would feel to be myself. I never focused on how horrible it was being me, and just accepted it as a fact that couldn't be changed until I transitioned.

I personally describe my journey as Gender Euphoria. Maybe my attitude is linked to my strong personal optimism, always viewing things in a good light, rather than a bad light. Maybe I have repressed the part of my brain that processes some of the bad emotions that people link to dysphoria.

When I have been to psychiatrists in the past they have assessed me as being gender dysphoric, as I clearly wanted to change my gender, and been having these thoughts all my life, however I personally think their assessment didn't match my own personal journey, but accepted it as there is only one clinical definition of what I have, and that is gender dysphoria.

Think about Birthdays when you were a child. You were extremely happy about the day (hopefully), you looked forward to it all year. Most people would say that you are euphoric on that day. But does that mean that the rest of the year is filled with dysphoric feelings? For the last few years since making the decision to medically transition, I have finally felt happy about my gender, I feel my entire life has lifted from normalcy to a new level of endless euphoria.

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 07:42:51 PM

In some of my past sexual experiences, it was not so much that I hated my body as much as I could only get aroused if I imagined I was a woman. Once again, this wasn't dypshoria, but more like I needed to affirm my gender to achieve a feeling of realness about myself.

OK, but how did you feel about that at the time?  Is it possible you are telling yesterday's stories with today's voice?  If so, it wouldn't hurt to say so...or would it?

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 07:42:51 PMFor the last few years since making the decision to medically transition, I have finally felt happy about my gender, I feel my entire life has lifted from normalcy to a new level of endless euphoria.

They say that laughter is the best medicine, but I think that title goes to decisions.  And again, if you have been euphoric since that decision, what were you before it?  Do tell...    8)

I think it is possible to view dysphoria as a comparative state. I would probably classify my own this way at least. It was never that I felt I couldn't be happy being male, it was that I felt I would be infinitely happier as female. And by this token, having experienced even a tiny bit of that happiness thus far, I could never go back to the previous state and to do so would cause extreme distress. (Though I also admit this is probably as well me still not coming fully to grips with my past dysphoria. It is still hard for me to comprehend that I spent so long as a shut-in, which I do now believe was in part due to exacerbation from unrecognized dysphoria, and logically may be at odds with feeling that I could have been happy to a degree as male.)

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 07:52:34 PM
OK, but how did you feel about that at the time?  Is it possible you are telling yesterday's stories with today's voice?  If so, it wouldn't hurt to say so...or would it?

I don't think I am using today's voice with yesterday's memories, I am fairly certain that is how I felt at the time. However it is hard to be 100% certain about anything I have felt in the past. All I have is memories and that is how I have always remembered it.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 07:52:34 PM
They say that laughter is the best medicine, but I think that title goes to decisions.  And again, if you have been euphoric since that decision, what were you before it?  Do tell...    8)

I would say before the decision I would have just been in a state of normalcy. I am sure that some time in the future that what I now call my current state - a happy state (euphoric), will become the new normal. In saying that someone who is always feeling dysphoric could also describe their life as normal. Either way life now is better.

In the end all I can say that before transition I didn't fixate on what was wrong, instead I fixated on what could be.

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
In saying that someone who is always feeling dysphoric could also describe their life as normal. Either way life now is better.

I think that most people with bad dysphoria recognized that what they felt was not normal.  It might be typical for how one feels all the time but suicidal ideation and the like is not "normal".



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For a very long time, I did not realize I had dysphoria.  I honestly thought that everyone felt the way I did, and my problem was that I was much weaker in mental determination or drive than most people, and that was the cause of my problems.

When I finally hit deep chronic depression and tried to end myself, I got help, was diagnosed, and eventually started HRT.  Several weeks into HRT I had periods of greater mental clarity and started to experience prolonged periods of what I called euphoria.

I asked my therapist about this.  What I felt was not euphoria, but rather how normal folks without the dysphoric depression and anxiety felt.  In retrospect, I had that dysphoria and related depression to some degree my entire adult life, and had nothing to compare it to before now.

So, yes, in one way I was trans without acknowledging or realizing my dysphoria.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 20, 2018, 11:17:51 PM
So, yes, in one way I was trans without acknowledging or realizing my dysphoria.

Interesting post, maybe I too have just been viewing my life through the euphoria lens, which conveniently covers dysphoria. Not acknowledging or realising dysphoria does not diminish someone's views. ie If someone says that they do not experience dysphoria, this should not a reason to assume someone is not trans.

At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter how you classify something, or even how someone classifies themselves, as long as a healthier outcome is achieved for the affected person, and they aren't hurting anyone else in the process.

I never really liked being bulky and my weight always went really low to 137 lbs from extreme dieting and then back up high even reaching 210 lbs. It's crazy how so unhappy with my body I was. I kinda still am because I'm only 4 months on hrt. I know what I like is slimmer upper body and big butt/hips. Which I feel I'm getting there now finally but my shoulders are wide and I have upper arm/stomach fat...

My point is I never knew this was dysphoria. I even fantasized having FFS without even knowing that's possible! Honestly Kaitlyn Jenner and Laverene Cox kinda helped me realize it would be something I could do too. So I "crossdressed" and it made sense.

I think it's common to not know what dysphoria is. Social dysphoria is very bad for me and I was always in denial. Drinking alcohol was my way to escape.

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Loxygen, our stories are much alike.  I didn't bother with psychoanalysis or therapy until I really began to contemplate wanting to change my body, which I'm really happy about doing, my therapist assured me that my feelings were genuine.  It took me quite a bit of researching to realize atypical cases like ours are valid forms of transgenderness, and every few weeks someone posts another thread wondering why they felt and acted like boys when they were young, why they aren't being torn apart by desperation, etc.

It's strange to me that my awakening is taking place at a time when regulations on transitioning are becoming rapidly more lax, that public awareness is at an all time high, that it's becoming some sort of fashion statement with youth.  I carried on forever not realizing who I was, if I'd recognized my true identity I'd have faced many more uphill battles.

As a kid and teen I struggled to define my own dysphoria when I look back at it in retrospect. As a kid, I thought I was okay with my body but looking male would be "better" somehow. I didn't know how or why. I felt jealousy, but at the same time I didn't really care if I was male or female. I had too much other stuff on my mind with being bullied and then the aftermath of having been sexually abused by two of those bullies. When I entired puberty I did feel distress over growing breasts but looked forward to getting periods (although instantly disliked actually getting them). I idolised looking pre-pubescent again but didn't really wish for male genitals and how I saw my gender kept switching between male, female and neutral. I preferred wearing feminine clothes over masculine. So I would say I had a slowly developing atypical form of dysphoria that was very uneven as I grew up. If it had to do with the abuse or not I can't say for sure but I think it was a factor in my confusion, and understanding myself in general.

I realised I was trans first when I was 15 but quickly shunned that realisation and made the decision to "try to be female" instead. Then followed 4 years of denial. I don't remember having actively been aware of much of any dysphoria during most of that time, likely because I kept telling myself that it's normal to be insecure about one's own body while I buried my true feelings in some kind of drag queen costume 24/7. I barely lived day by day and couldn't see a future. It was just "this day, then this day" cause I was more often suicidal than not with repeated attempts and never had any luck with getting medications prescribed that would actually work and not do more harm instead. Self harmed a lot and made it my hobby to romantisise mental illness.

At 19 though, my buried dysphoria started blowing up in my face as I couldn't contain it anymore. My feminine outfits started feeling like prison cells reminding me of the lie I was living, and the lie itself somehow made my dysphoria much worse even after I had stopped trying ty hide from myself. Then nothing I did to try to calm and treat my dysphoria seemed to help instead, while waiting for hrt. I knew I saw myself as a guy in my mind and desired a male body, but I didn't know up until then if that was the main issue or even an issue at all for me. Upon realisation, my dysphoria was mostly centered around my chest, genitals, over all curvy body shape and lack of male secondary sex characteristics, but it didn't reach that point until I was 19-20. Before then everything was just a blur that I couldn't sort out.

My mind has always been very chaotic and it's been a lifetime struggle to separate and understand most of my thoughts, feelings, comforts and discomforts. Usually I don't notice something is wrong until it explodes in my face and is extreme. The finer nuances get lost in the general goup that is my mind. So understanding what dysphoria is, if I actually have it, how I experienced it, if I'm actually trans or just delusional, and if transitioning would be the right decision for me - has been very difficult and those questions still on occasion pop up in my head when I get too entangled and lost in my own thoughts before I realise I'm just repeating the same questions that I already know I have the answers to by now. And this might not be so good, but the clearest answer I got to whether transitioning was really the right thing for me or not and if I really had/have dysphoria or not, was that taking T and having top surgery was a great relief and only made me far more comfortable with both my body and mind, and I wouldn't go back for anything. I feel so comfortable going about my life as a man compared to how miserable I was trying to live as a girl/young woman. So ultimately I know by experience rather than by thought.

So with that wall of text and a bit of oversharing (I don't mind though) said, my own idea of what constitutes as dysphoria may or may not be like anyone else's, but it has given me an idea of what it could maybe be like for kids and teens of today who say they're trans without dysphoria. Cause it's really not easy to know what constitutes as dysphoria and what doesn't. I've seen a lot of misconceptions going around about it and... I don't know, but I want to believe it might all just come from misunderstanding. I too think that dysphoria is a requirement for being transsexual. I personally prefer saying transsexual instead of transgender, but say "trans" as short for both, I consider myself transsexual but don't like using the word transgender for myself cause of what's going on debate wise regarding that word. I don't "identify" as being trans though, cause to me it's just something I have to deal with, and not an identity. In my opinion it is a medical condition with dysphoria being the symptom. I don't know how to respectfully word my opinion on what I think about identifying as trans without dysphoria if it's not a misunderstanding, so I'm just gonna shut up about it. All I can say is that I don't agree with it, and I have strong feelings about it.

 I feel like if I claim that transgender people can't be transgender without having dysphoria, I'd be labeled "transphobic". I know a lot of people have different ideas in the community so whenever I say I feel there's a medical significance I am automatically outcasting myself by people from parts of the extreme areas of the community

Honestly, as a medically sound basis I feel dysphoria is a good descriptor of the symptom of how being transgender is portrayed, and what makes us have the "drive" to transition. If no one had ANY feelings at all, they wouldn't be transgender. Any feelings which you conclude the need to transition, in my opinion, is dysphoria.

Not everyone has extreme physical dysphoria, it can be mild. If you can't feel it at all the discomfort probably manifests itself in apathy, and "euphoria" when presenting as the correct gender. In fact, this was even my case, I felt like I SHOULD have dysphoria, but I couldnt quite put my finger on why I didnt, and then I learned I did have in those ways I just stated. 


I can't speak for everyone though so if they think they do not have dysphoria then I can't make them think they do. It's a matter of discussing the information and leaving it out there for people to draw their conclusions, if someone is right and wrong in the end, it's fine...people are right or wrong about different subjects every day and it only hurts when the information causes  actual, violent harm.

First time commenting, so please take it easy on me.
As someone that has been researching gender related issues from medication to the mental aspects for the better part of 15 years, as well as being trans myself. I do believe that one can be trans without the dysphoria. I would say it's closer to being gender queer or gender non-conforming. But it is possible as there are some of us that don't believe that being trans is all that bad.
I could see it to become a more common occurrence in the newer generations as the world becomes more accepting of trans issues as homophobia and transphobia lessens. Unfortunately the world with never be free of such things, but over time things do become common place, kind of like women wearing pants, not that women wearing pants is a bad thing.
There will always be the religious families that will shun the issue and could make their children outcasts, but there are three religious families that will openly accept them for who they are as that is how their God, Gods, or Goddesses made them.
I myself have started to lose the dysphoric portion of the GD title over the past several years as I've come to accept the fact that, unless I win the lottery or something similarly amazing happens, I will never be that feminine in appearance. I won't say that I don't struggle with depression, but there are coming more pressing matters than my lifestyle going on in my life.

TLDR: I think being trans without dysphoria is more akin to gender non-conforming or gender queer. But it is possible.

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Quote from: salaniaseviltwin on January 22, 2018, 07:09:53 AM
First time commenting, so please take it easy on me.

Don't worry, no one here bites! ... No, wait, actually I can think of few people who bite. ... Maybe quite a few... Ok, well, maybe people here bite, but it's a friendly bite. A little too friendly perhaps.

... *ahem*, Sorry, I say weird stuff a lot. But seriously, you have nothing to fear. This forum is about the most welcoming place I've ever been online. :)

Quote
As someone that has been researching gender related issues from medication to the mental aspects for the better part of 15 years, as well as being trans myself. I do believe that one can be trans without the dysphoria. I would say it's closer to being gender queer or gender non-conforming. But it is possible as there are some of us that don't believe that being trans is all that bad.
I could see it to become a more common occurrence in the newer generations as the world becomes more accepting of trans issues as homophobia and transphobia lessens. Unfortunately the world with never be free of such things, but over time things do become common place, kind of like women wearing pants, not that women wearing pants is a bad thing.
There will always be the religious families that will shun the issue and could make their children outcasts, but there are three religious families that will openly accept them for who they are as that is how their God, Gods, or Goddesses made them.
I myself have started to lose the dysphoric portion of the GD title over the past several years as I've come to accept the fact that, unless I win the lottery or something similarly amazing happens, I will never be that feminine in appearance. I won't say that I don't struggle with depression, but there are coming more pressing matters than my lifestyle going on in my life.

TLDR: I think being trans without dysphoria is more akin to gender non-conforming or gender queer. But it is possible.

This somewhat mirrors my feelings, in that I believe dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender, but dysphoria may be a self-selecting lead in to being explicitly transsexual*. (* with exceptions, there are always exceptions, and those exceptions are no less trans anything for it.)

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Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 20, 2018, 11:58:13 AM
I'm noticing a pattern of alot of young trans kids around my age or younger have this thought that you do not need dysphoria to be transgender..

I honestly want to here from people who feel this way but please who ever reads feel free to share your honest and respectful thoughts because this is not a hate thread or anything like that.
I just want more open discussion on it and too understand the other side.

I will share my opinion on it.

I think it's harmful as someone who had crippling dysphoria to the point of wanting to end it all many nights.
I don't think being trans is the worst thing in the world, but it's not the greatest either.
I honestly thought that
Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis for someone transgender just like psychosis is for someone who is psychotic.
(God I hate that I had to compare the two in that sense but you know what I mean!)

I can't imagine how someone can be trans with no dysphoria at all!
I don't understand why someone would want to be trans with no dysphoria.

I've heard people counter that argument by saying they just ARE men/women/NB etc
Not trans.
But even so if a cis female woke up with male genitals she'd be mortified I'd imagine.

I can go on forever about the arguments for this.


Anyways...

Let's see how far we can get in this conversation before it gets locked.
Hopefully it won't lol.

Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 22, 2018, 12:20:29 PM
Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

Though even though it is in the transsexual section, the consensus tends to lean towards dysphroria is not a requirement regardless.

YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This ->-bleeped-<- is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

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You don't need it.

Quote from: EzriaDaniels on January 22, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This ->-bleeped-<- is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

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You must have dysphoria in order to be transsexual.  You must have dysphoria for treatments targeting dysphoria to be effective.  You need not have dysphoria to be transgender.  All you need is a sense of self which does not conform to the gender you were assigned at birth.  If this causes no distress, it causes no distress.

Does that make sense, Ezria?

Would you agree Devlyn? 

I do agree with that. I don't agree with absolute statements or personal circumstances presented as facts presumed to apply to everyone.

Quote from: EzriaDaniels on January 22, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This [stuff] is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

Ezria, I can certainly understand why you may feel that way, but please keep in mind that what you are describing is more associated with being transsexual than being transgender as per the umbrella term.

We are constantly told by many parts of society that we aren't really men(ftm) or women(mtf), that we just need to "get over it", or any of a billion things, it is self defeating for us to deny the expression of others simply because we may not understand it (in this case, "it" being trans without dysphoria). That is the very thing mainstream society has done to even people with the most severe dysphoria, and there is no reason to fall prey to the same mentality. We should respect those without any dysphoria, just as they should respect those with. (Unfortunately, the lack of respect can admittedly go both ways. I do recall one recent thread here, where a largely non-conforming/non binary support group wanted everyone to come to a meeting in a dress to celebrate femininity over masculinity, which was a huge trigger for some members. Likewise, the shaming of masculine interests among trans women and the desire to become more masculine among transmen is far, far too common in the larger trans movement.)

I never felt dysphoric per se cause I just recently learned the term, plus i had a superspiritual christian upbringing and only  became aware of my sexuality at 25. Since then I def have not enjoyed my anatomy. Ive tried hard but I just thought It was prolly related to my ocpd and just something id have to accept and repress. now at 29 it was only last fall I became truly conscious that I could actually change genders. Now alot of things are  making sense.

so yes im pre HRT and surgery but not hating your anatomy and masculinity seems to me highly incongruent with the nature of transexuality. This cannot be merely a fetish. Especially the "I am women" dogma. If there,s no dysphoria and no surgery how much of a women are you truly?

But im still thinking deeply about this topic.

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Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 22, 2018, 12:20:29 PM
Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

It is harmful when people take harmones and regret it later because it was "cool at the time" to do.
It's harmful to people who had/have dysphoria to see people make light of it as well.
It's harmful when for the sake of not offending people, trans people with huge audiences with many impressionable young people tell them they can be trans just by liking the color blue/pink.

ANY kind of discomfort with your assigned gender at birth is a form of dysphoria.

I agree with one of the comments if you have no dysphoria it might lean towards gender non conforming,
Which would be more logical, but gender dysphoria is literally the diagnosis for transgender.

It's the diagnosis for transsexual. But that's not the question you asked. You asked about transgender. Hence my comment about muddying the water.

Now, trying to deny people their transgender identity....that's harmful.

Quote from: jonsparks on January 22, 2018, 05:43:14 PM

I never felt dysphoric per se cause I just recently learned the term, plus i had a superspiritual christian upbringing and only  became aware of my sexuality at 25. Since then I def have not enjoyed my anatomy. Ive tried hard but I just thought It was prolly related to my ocpd and just something id have to accept and repress. now at 29 it was only last fall I became truly conscious that I could actually change genders. Now alot of things are  making sense.

so yes im pre HRT and surgery but not hating your anatomy and masculinity seems to me highly incongruent with the nature of transexuality. This cannot be merely a fetish. Especially the "I am women" dogma. If there,s no dysphoria and no surgery how much of a women are you truly?

But im still thinking deeply about this topic.

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Not everyone feels the need to fully transition physically, but prefer to socially.
And even so it doesn't mAke someone less trans. If you feel discomfort with being male
And would rather be read as female that is dysphoria.
You don't  have to hate your anatomy either, dysphoria is really just feeling uncomfortable with your assigned gender at birth. So yes, technically you experienced dysphoria.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 23, 2018, 12:14:00 PM
It's the diagnosis for transsexual. But that's not the question you asked. You asked about transgender. Hence my comment about muddying the water.

Now, trying to deny people their transgender identity....that's harmful.

But it's not harmful for people who never experienced dysphoria to speak on behalf of the trans community
And basically twist the whole movement to fit their narrative?

It's not harmful for people who experience dysphoria (you know, that thing that caused 40% of trans youth to kill themselves?) To be called transphobic for not painting transitioning as this beautiful luxurious lifestyle.

Is it not harmful that everything we been fighting for for years as far as medically, and scientifically to prove we exist and there's a reason for us to transition to be debunked by our own team because dysphoria sounds mean?

You do realize when trans people say you do not need dysphoria, cis conservative Christians take and twist that to say it's a choice.

And how is transgender dysphoria any difference than transsexual dysphoria?
It's called gender dysphoria for a reason.
Last I checked transsexual were trans people who went with through with surgery.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 23, 2018, 12:17:02 PM
Not everyone feels the need to fully transition physically, but prefer to socially.
And even so it doesn't mAke someone less trans. If you feel discomfort with being male
And would rather be read as female that is dysphoria.
You don't  have to hate your anatomy either, dysphoria is really just feeling uncomfortable with your assigned gender at birth. So yes, technically you experienced dysphoria.

my ocpd gets me hung up on wordage, syr. your refering to transgender. trans the prefix infers a crossing over like transverse and transform or transcend. transexuality isnt a feeling like transgender. its radical transfer of ones sex which culminates in surgery. Sex being the physical manifestion of sexuality. I hate blanket terminology. But im arrogant, admittedly. Ive been known to argue the dictionary is wrong lol.

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I think that we are getting hung up on terminology more than anything... Which has been only vaguely established at best, and to different people and even different cultures it means different things. Best course of action... Agree to disagree, and throw a pizza party.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 23, 2018, 12:08:10 PM
...but gender dysphoria is literally the diagnosis for transgender.

No, it literally is not.  Spend some time on the APA site or other transgender education sites.  Transgender and gender dysphoric are not synonymous, and repeating the claim doesn't make it more true.

This will be my last post in this topic. There are two things that really disappoint me here. One is this topic itself. It has no place on a site where the mission is "There is no right or wrong way to transition" and where "Am I trans enough?" isn't supposed to exist.

The second thing that bothers me is the long term posters I see viewing this thread and not saying a word. Suggesting we agree to disagree over the validity of our identities with a pizza party is akin to saying "You can't sit at the front of the bus, but have some fried chicken and watermelon."

I'll say that any absolute is a myth (except death and taxes). GD, gender identities, sexuality, society and life itself is a multifaceted rainbow.
Only a person, who's lived their own life is truly qualified to say what they are, and what they need to be happy, anyone else is just guessing.
Live your life, and let others live theirs,  then we'll all be happy [emoji4].

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Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 24, 2018, 12:12:14 PM
Suggesting we agree to disagree over the validity of our identities with a pizza party is akin to saying "You can't sit at the front of the bus, but have some fried chicken and watermelon."

:-\ That is absolutely not what I meant, and I sincerely apologize if it came across as dismissive. My only intent was to inject a little levity into a topic that was becoming far too contentious, in which terminology wasn't being used consistently(you can't really argue about if "x is y", if neither side defines in the most literal dictionary sense "x" the same in the first place). I'm in 100% agreement with what you've expressed on the topic, and have said as much, and I hope the poor attempt at peace making on my part didn't undermine that sentiment.

I already made a comment but I think I can elaborate/share a bit more on what I think about this now after having thought it through a bit more. And I'll try my best to be both clear and considerate, but I don't make promises.

As far as I see it, to be transsexual you do need to have dysphoria in some form or another, whether mild or more extreme. Also not really experiencing direct dysphoria per se but euphoria/relief upon transitioning I think counts as well.

I don't think the term transgender should be used as an umbrella term that includes transsexual, cause it's been very confusing for a lot of people whether they're trans themselves or not. Being gender non-conforming is not the same as being trans. You can be both, of course, but there's already a term for people who are gnc without dysphoria or any gender incongruence and I don't understand why that somehow isn't good enough. Why not just stick with calling yourself gender non-conforming if that's what you are. I don't get it.

However I could get on board with the term transgender including non-dysphoric people as long as their gender identity does not correspond with their birth sex, but that the definition for transsexual still requires dysphoria. Whether you're binary or non-binary doesn't matter, whether you actually transition or not doesn't matter either.

I don't think it's a good idea when gender and gender expression keeps being conflated with each other. Just switching gender roles/clothes doesn't make you trans, but it's absolutely fine to do so if you wish to. Just don't say it makes you trans.

I have no issue with people just being whoever they are, I only have issues with how the labels are being used, cause I think it should be correct. Cause the definition of the term transgender has been broadened over time to mean more than what the consensus once was on what it means. That I don't think was a good kind of change. It feels like the word is starting to lose it's meaning and I worry where that may lead in the future if the definition keeps broadening. I think it complicates things like communication a lot, especially when we within the community can't even agree on what is what. But regardless of which term means what and my own personal opinions, I think it would be important to eventually come to a generally established consensus on the matter to clear up the confusion and make communication, both within and outside of the trans community, a lot smoother. My suggestion would be to separate the two terms transsexual and transgender to have different meanings, or create new words for different kinds of gender experiences. Cause it's more important that words/labels have clear definitions that people understand, than to use whatever label anyone wants to cause they just want to be included or feel validated.

Roll: I understand what you're saying, but that we can't agree on the terminology is exactly the issue here. And that is also what would be important to sort out or I think there's a high risk of the trans community further splitting apart until it can't hold itself together anymore. Maybe that would be for the better or the worse, I don't know.

Quote from: SeptagonScars on January 24, 2018, 01:56:02 PM

Roll: I understand what you're saying, but that we can't agree on the terminology is exactly the issue here. And that is also what would be important to sort out or I think there's a high risk of the trans community further splitting apart until it can't hold itself together anymore. Maybe that would be for the better or the worse, I don't know.

Unfortunately, while there are attempts at establishing definitions, I think this is quite a bit more than terminology at issue in this thread since many posts are focused on establishing a nuance (the requirement or lack thereof of dysphoria) and not the term itself, without clearly establishing the definition they are going off in the first place. That's the problem with the entire argument even in a broader sense, because a matter of semantics should never be something that devalues another, and we are doing just that in a classic "cart before horse" scenario.

Whether it's possible to come to one commonly accepted definition of transgender in the first place is a different matter, and I think that is well beyond what we can hope to accomplish here. (Hence my poor attempt at diffusion.) Though having said that, it occurred to me there are the "official Susan's definitions" somewhere around here that at least as far as forum is concerned we should stick to most likely.  :-X

Regardless, I think I'm going to take Devlyn's cue and bow out of this thread. I've said more than my piece at this point. Kinnnnnnnnnda regret posting in it to begin with.

lots of people generally, especially in the queer community given the inherent counter culture element, explicitly and implicity shrug labels off as patriarchal and  some attempt to box one into some normative category. while there is a time and place to resist labels and deconstruct terminology, all the energy spent doing this is largely disingenuous. The insistence in being called a women, being refered to by the proper pronoun, being called by a new name, being upset at wrong queer designations like transgender or transexual.

Fundamentally, humans need words to bring order to chaos of experiences. Words matter. Insisting one be allowed to go with how they feel results in words meaning different things and ultimately becoming meaningless. The word once described a particular experience, now its a go-to term for experiences in general and now noone has a way of communicating the experience theyre having.

Granted, this is how languages evolve but its not an excuse. Those of us now without meaniful terms to communicate our experience because they've been watered down are frustrated and maybe even ostracized for not going along with the new blanket definitions.

it becomes a new normativity, a new patriarchal system that now we have to fight and contend with. 

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Quote from: Roll on January 24, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Unfortunately, while there are attempts at establishing definitions, I think this is quite a bit more than terminology at issue in this thread since many posts are focused on establishing a nuance (the requirement or lack thereof of dysphoria) and not the term itself, without clearly establishing the definition they are going off in the first place. That's the problem with the entire argument even in a broader sense, because a matter of semantics should never be something that devalues another, and we are doing just that in a classic "cart before horse" scenario.

Whether it's possible to come to one commonly accepted definition of transgender in the first place is a different matter, and I think that is well beyond what we can hope to accomplish here. (Hence my poor attempt at diffusion.) Though having said that, it occurred to me there are the "official Susan's definitions" somewhere around here that at least as far as forum is concerned we should stick to most likely.  :-X

Regardless, I think I'm going to take Devlyn's cue and bow out of this thread. I've said more than my piece at this point. Kinnnnnnnnnda regret posting in it to begin with.

Fair enough, and I understand that just arguing semantics doesn't really lead to anything good. But it seems to be very linked to the issue what the words mean and who fits under the label and who doesn't, cause it depends on what everyone thinks the words mean. Either way though, I understand your decision to bow out of this thread. I'm sure I'll see you around in other threads. I think your opinions did contribute to the discussion though.

The term "dysphoria" seems to suffer from a bit of circular logic. Every "symptom" of being transgender is labeled "dysphoria" even which it's quite clear that the mechanisms can't possibly be the same. For example, pubertal onset chronic hormonal depression is called "dysphoria", phantom penis is called "dysphoria", and anxiety triggered by misgendering is called "dysphoria". These are all transgender symptoms but they certainly are not all the same thing.

We obviously need a way to talk about dysphoria and distinguish it from other crap that we deal with like transphobia, homophobia, sexism, hostility towards GNC people. Feeling boxed in by a societal gender role is not a unique experience to transgender people and the cure for THAT is NOT taking a pill! (Decades of coercive psychiatric procedures to the contrary.)

But there is a continuing confusion factor with talking about our experiences this way. So frequently I see a young person post to trans forums that they think they're trans but they don't have dysphoria. Then they describe their experiences, ABC XYZ and other trans people say, "hey ABC isn't dysphoria but XYZ is, you DO have dysphoria". I'm not saying that the other trans posters are gaslighting the OP or trying to "trans" them or whatever; in fact, I agree with the other posters' opinions on what is dysphoria and what isn't. But that's the tricky thing--clearly you have a failure of communication of what dysphoria even is.

Frankly I think dysphoria is difficult to describe and understand because it's a bunch of psychological and neurological stuff that is mostly acting on parts of our brain too primitive for language. (Much like emotions, which can take a lot of training to verbalize and a lot of that verbalization is in metaphor, which can become a barrier to communication. Take the way people use the word "love" ... it's about 100 times worse than "dysphoria" for ambiguity and confusion.)

The other barrier to understanding dysphoria is that it's chronic, and with any chronic condition your conscious brain starts to filter it out and it becomes the baseline to your existence. How many people on their transition journey have expressed in retrospect how completely messed up their "normal" was? That they thought other people were just as confused and miserable and messed up and were just lying about it and putting on a front? That they were so numbed out they just didn't feel anything?

This is the problem with the conversation about trans and dysphoria. Dysphoria can be as difficult to recognize as the nose on your face. Your logical brain doesn't have a good grasp on it, and you just don't see the things that are there all the time. So many people find this conversation on gender and get obsessed with it but can't perceive their own dysphoria, making the talk about "dysphoria or else" very unhelpful.

And let's turn this cube over to yet another side. "Dysphoria" is actually short for, I guess, "gender dysphoria". Okay, there are other forms of "dysphoria" in psychology. Many of the (relatively tiny number of people) who attempt to transition for the wrong reasons and desist are in fact suffering from dysphoria. They are looking for a way to heal their dysphoria and when they see trans people getting cured they fixate on that because they want to be happy and get better too! And it's not always easy for therapists to disambiguate these conditions since so many trans people when untreated have comorbid mental illnesses from depression to depersonalization disorders.

It's funny how things run around back to the beginning. Back in the gatekeeping days, therapists used to push the RLE--an often cruel trial by fire for folks that were forced to draw all the scorn of a transphobic society just to prove they wanted hormones bad enough. Yet it seems like perhaps the most conservative treatment option in today's world would be to advise the individual who is confused about their gender to just go ahead and try new pronouns and a new name and see how they feel about it. And maybe there's room now in some spaces where this is a reasonable option. (Of course I wouldn't suggest this to someone with severe, persistent physical dysphoria--I'd suggest they try hormones for a few weeks or months and see how they respond to them--however there are so many people who are quite unable to make sense of what they're feeling, at least at first.)

Greetings all,

I think this has been a really good discussion. I do not agree with all that has been posted but that is the beauty of a forum like this. We don't all have to agree. When I read the first post, then the next 5 and so on right to the end (as of this moment) I had points I wanted to make. The weird thing is that at least 5 or more members posted a part of the points I wanted to make. So I really don't have to make it. However, I might do kind of a recap from my point of view.

I think Michelle P's description was closest to my own. When I hit the severe depression spot, I looked back. I assumed I was a cross dresser, because I did not have the normal narrative. I had happy moments, no trauma or abuse, I didn't "know I was a girl" since little. I ran across an article on line called, "That was dysphoria?" For me that was the key. I finally realized some things and kept researching. So here is what I have found to be my relative truth:

-dysphoria is a sense of discomfort. That was the definition I found. In retrospect, while I had happy moments I was just "off" all my life. I too think far too many people use the word dysphoria to mean whatever they want. Strongly felt emotions are not dysphoria. They are anxiety, shame, depression, rage....You're all smart enough, you get my drift. Pet peeve of mine is people saying they are having a dysphoric day when all the others have been good(after starting transition-whatever that  means to you). Maybe it is, but maybe the day just sucks. Everybody has bad days. Even happy, non-dysphoric people.

-like Michelle, it took me a long time to realize that everyone else did not feel the way I do. I just assumed what was diagnosed as severe depression was how everyone felt.

-words evolve. The words and their use of the 60's and 70's have evolved. Truthfully, even words from about 3 years ago have evolved. As much as we try to define and keep up with them, human societies and cultures will see to it that it will shift. The Strongest example was hearing Kate Bornstein(okay, they are on one of the radical edges about some thing) say that the culture of San Francisco 60s-70s, "->-bleeped-<-" was born as a word they used as a nickname for transsexuals. Not the meaning it has now. I am even taking a risk using that word as it both triggers some people and is pretty much a word that as a moderator, I have been instructed to edit. I hope all see the use of this example for what it is.

There is a lot more I could drone on about but I have to go teach and drone on to my students. I think most transgender people do have some form of dysphoria or they would not have an urge to change. If they are rebelling to be different, it is still a form of dysphoria. It just may not last.

I do not to belittle anyone or suggest their feelings are not valid. These are my points of view today at this time.

I'm not much of a biter just in case anyone is worried. Unless you act with no consideration.

Warmly,

Jacqui