So around what month of HRT did you get to that point?
Month 4 or 5 for me.
I'm a late bloomer so around month 10. Growing noticeable breasts definitely helped.
Interesting question.
The first male fail for me was pre HRT wearing guy jeans and a hoodie with no makeup. I'm a firm believer that attitude and presentation (movements, clothes, stance, ...) Are as important.
Feminine hair style counts for a lot too.
Consider the 50 foot (15m) back-lit test. When you see a person that far away with the sun behind them you probably can tell their gender identity.
Sure boobs, softer skin, makeup, styled hair helps but attitude is just as important.
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I never got an actual male fail in public. However, by month three, I knew I could no longer wear T-shirts, which pretty much committed me to going full-time before summer.
Quote from: Denise on January 23, 2018, 08:11:17 AM
Interesting question.
The first male fail for me was pre HRT wearing guy jeans and a hoodie with no makeup. I'm a firm believer that attitude and presentation (movements, clothes, stance, ...) Are as important.
Feminine hair style counts for a lot too.
Consider the 50 foot (15m) back-lit test. When you see a person that far away with the sun behind them you probably can tell their gender identity.
Sure boobs, softer skin, makeup, styled hair helps but attitude is just as important.
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My first was... like 50/50 when I was out in public as a kid. I got mammed alot. Happened less in high school though I suspect having buzzed off hair forced on me had something to do with that. In college? Throw on a wig I was mammed alot again. Hair finally grew out, now its like 99.9% of the time. I leave that 0.1% because .. well you never know. Then again I know cis women that fair far worse.
I know most women think catcalls are rude and obnoxious, but I'm looking forward to being whistled at. Is that just residual male thoughts that think women like it and take it as a compliment? In my male life, I would never consider disrespecting a woman like that, but as a woman it kinda thrills me.
Quote from: Denise on January 23, 2018, 08:11:17 AM
Interesting question.
The first male fail for me was pre HRT wearing guy jeans and a hoodie with no makeup. I'm a firm believer that attitude and presentation (movements, clothes, stance, ...) Are as important.
Feminine hair style counts for a lot too.
Consider the 50 foot (15m) back-lit test. When you see a person that far away with the sun behind them you probably can tell their gender identity.
Sure boobs, softer skin, makeup, styled hair helps but attitude is just as important.
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Excellent insight. Gives me something to think about. Thank you!
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I hit male fail somewhere between 3 and 4 months. Started off as an occasional, but by 6 months it was pretty much constantly. So much for easing into transition.
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I pretty much had male fail before hrt but there were some people who got confused. After about 2 months of hrt I had complete male fail meaning I passed completely with people who didn't know me.
Quote from: Denise on January 23, 2018, 08:11:17 AM
I'm a firm believer that attitude and presentation (movements, clothes, stance, ...) Are as important.
So far that's exactly what I've found as well.
If you waddle like a duck, act like a duck, dress like a duck, and even better
quack like a duck then people are going to assume you're a duck even if you're a slightly fuzzy and kind of goofy looking duck. (like me with stubble before an electrolysis session)
Confidence is huge as well. Going out of your way to avoid eye contact and whatnot merely arouses suspicion.
I had my first one just a few days ago, on 19 Jan, and I was not even trying. On HRT for 10 months, no make-up, women's jeans, men's polo shirt, women's jacket, and I had been letting my hair grow since Dec 2016. It really felt great!
Maybe something irrelevant: Before I ever transitioned and began estrogen I was referred to as "she" in one situation. That was a time when I was trying to suppress my dysphora and was trying to live a life as a man. It was in an office hour and one classmate referred me in this way. I was wearing man's clothes at that time, so I guess it could be my feminine posture.
Feeling: Euphoria.
Pre-hormones by a few months I went out presenting female and passed just fine a few times. As I understand it though male fail refers to bring gendered female despite presenting male (or at least neutral). Though I would point out that I had been growing my hair out for almost two years prior to discovering my gender issues, so I probably had a leg up on most. It just seems like there is some leeway within this thread as to what male fail is.
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I don't believe anyone was no longer able to pass as male after 3-4 months of HRT.
I've been on HRT for 3 years, had FFS and SRS, and had a few intimate rendezvous with guys who had no idea I am trans.
But I'm pretty sure if I put some effort into it, I could still pass as male.
Quote from: Claire_Sydney on January 25, 2018, 09:00:57 AM
I don't believe anyone was no longer able to pass as male after 3-4 months of HRT.
That's not what a male fail is at all. Male fail is when people start calling you by female pronouns while presenting male. It's not necessarily a constant thing.
Yeah I was mostly asking when after starting HRT and still presenting male, people read you as female. Not if it happened when you were a kid cuz you had long hair lol.
Oh Lordy, we need HRT to male fail?
Rowan
I haven't gotten to this point where I could just leave my house in whatever which way and be gendered correctly (I wish). But I think generally it does take time on hormones and even ffs for some.
I think also depends on the surgeon's work. But it's possible.
I just noticed after 4 months someone called me sir from the back and then as she came around to the counter to make my coffee she called me sweetheart. That was so affirming to me!! Even though I prefer "miss", I'll take sweetheart for now!
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I was about 3 months in when a friend of mine said I had the "worst bubble butt" she's ever seen. I still remember that... I was both embarrassed and happy at the same time. I was laying on my side in her dorm room bed and she just noticed the curves then... :)
Male fail?? Well I've failed as a male all my life. Oh you mean taken for a woman... Never.
Hugs,
Laurie
Laurie. I love this new definition of mail fail.
I think it should be adopted forthwith and throughout.
I hereby second the motion.
Quote from: Janes Groove on February 05, 2018, 09:17:47 PM
Laurie. I love this new definition of male fail.
I think it should be adopted forthwith and throughout.
I hereby second the motion.
I kinda liked it myself as a light hearted response. But the truth of it still torments me.
I know. I always failed as a man too. At least now I know why.
About 2 years before I started HRT, someone I knew saw me in the distance, and approached me to ask out on a date. When he recognized me, he got peeved at himself, and I realized he was just someone that approached just about anyone that appeared female.
After I had my tracheal shave, people finally stopped looking me straight in the throat and calling me "sir".
Not exactly male-fail, but more stigmatization: I get questioned about my gender literally every day by family, friends, and strangers (mostly strangers as I have a public life). I am not out yet, so it embarrasses my wife. I guess that's a good sign I'll pass?
It wasn't until my first round of ffs (type 3 forehead + rhinoplasty), and the few times I tried to go out dressed in my old duds I still got ma'amed by most people; ironically though I got called sir more often when dressing feminine, which was probably because I didn't start dresssing femininely in public until after the FFS, so my walk, voice, mannerisms, *confidence in myself*, and basic overall feminine presentation still needed a lot of work. So FFS alone will not guarantee that you pass; we need the complete package.
I'm pre HRT but living full time for a year now. About 2 months in I was gendered correctly, now it's rare that I'm not.
A lot of it is down to being comfortable in your own skin. If I don't try to match up to stereotypes and just be myself I pass. If my brain gets in the way or dysphoria descends on me I just confuse people or make them uncomfortable.
Peace and love and all that good stuff,
Sadie
I would occasionally get male fail years before I started HRT. Deb and I were walking through the booths at Pride one year. I was wearing, jeans, sneakers, t-shirt, a white ball cap with my hair in a pony-tail and no makeup. When we passed the booth for the Feminist Women's Clinic, one of the women working the booth stepped out and addressed us as, "Ladies," while putting stickers on each of our shirts. The stickers read, "Carpe Boobum" (Seize the Boob), a reminder to do monthly breast exams.
Another time I had been helping a lesbian friend build a rail around her porch. We took a break to drive around to the corner store for a Coke. I was hot & dirty, soaking wet with perspiration and the only feminine thing about me at the time was a pair of gold ball earrings. When I walked into the store I passed three kids about 11-12 years old and I heard one of them say, "Hey, that was a lady!" much to the delight of my friend who got a big laugh out of it.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on January 25, 2018, 09:10:33 PM
That's not what a male fail is at all. Male fail is when people start calling you by female pronouns while presenting male. It's not necessarily a constant thing.
We are talking about the same thing I think, Colleen.
I have never heard of anyone who was presenting male but was being gendered female after just three months of hormones.
It took me pretty much three years of hormones and FFS before I reached a point where I would still be gendered female even when wearing male clothes and presenting male.
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It started happening to me in month 4. On vacation in Ireland of all places.
Well, random update. Pre-everything and just got maamed at US customs. Must be body language because even my hair was up.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on January 23, 2018, 07:04:54 PM
So far that's exactly what I've found as well.
If you waddle like a duck, act like a duck, dress like a duck, and even better quack like a duck then people are going to assume you're a duck even if you're a slightly fuzzy and kind of goofy looking duck. (like me with stubble before an electrolysis session)
Confidence is huge as well. Going out of your way to avoid eye contact and whatnot merely arouses suspicion.
This is so true!
I started getting male fail three weeks ago and it was both exciting and bothersome at first. It's happening a lot at work. So what changed?
Wasn't the long hair.
Wasn't the pierced ears.
Wasn't the women's jeans.
Wasn't the androgynous grey/purple backpack.
Wasn't the mini boobs.
It WAS the attitude. I am full time outside of work and the way I carry myself, the body language and speech patterns is what is causing male fail. It happens early on in the week more often as I relearn how to act like a boy. Now three weeks later, I no longer care who wonders what. I'm pretty sure there's a ton of rumors about me going around work and I'm perfectly ok with that as it turns out. Prior to starting the transitioning process that would have truly mortified me!
We learn far more about humans and perception than I ever thought possible on this journey.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on February 22, 2018, 07:15:28 AM
It started happening to me in month 4. On vacation in Ireland of all places.
I guess age and genetics play a part - how your sex hormone receptors react to estrogens, how long you've been exposed to testosterone, what your natural body shape was before hormones, etc.
I know some androgynous looking cis people (mostly Asians) who get misgendered from time to time. And I've heard of it with some masculine lesbians and transmen I know. Just not with western transwomen in such a short period of time. And I've watched a LOT of transwomen go through transition - from starting off coming out at work to completely stealth (even with their boyfriends).
How long before transition did you go through 'male' puberty?
Do the people who are gendering you female (when you're presenting male) change pronouns or correct themselves during the interaction?
Yes your starting point definitely plays a huge role. I started at 35. I haven't presented male at all since October of last year, and even then it was only at work since my name change in September.
Currently I don't get misgendered by anyone who didn't know me from before.
But in any case, yes it absolutely did happen to me that people gendered me female while presenting male after only 4 months of hormones and 5 months of facial hair removal. I had a very thick beard as well.
If you're curious, my avatar is an untouched photo of myself. No faceapp or photoshop.
Nearing 6 months on hrt things seem to finally be swinging the opposite direction for me. I don't know if it's attitude or the way I look. I don't get "sir" at all. I used to be super sensitive about it. My hair is growing out but I see a lot of guys with long hair, even longer than mine.
I'm nervous to go back to work because people will be so confused. I'll be closer to 7 months by then, but that's not my problem. Maybe my job will be easier if people are confused by me lol I just really need the money I don't even wanna go back (since they knew me as a male).
I feel like when I do go back, there's no way they'll still see a male. If they do misgender me then I'm going to make sure I stick around until I go full time completely under the radar. I'm not coming out officially at work. When I legally change my name I'll think of something.
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I have always had male-fail... especially as a young boy and through my early college years, I was a skinny, short, runt with no muscle or bulk to speak of, a soft looking girlish face and a voice to match. It was a nightmare for me as a male... especially around my classmates that were all MALE in every way.
All of that was of great value as I transitioned.
The first picture is a "before" picture taken at a game while in college. The second picture is me after my celebration makeover upon completion of my 3rd year of HRT at the beginning of March this year.
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 20, 2018, 03:40:25 PM
I have always had male-fail... especially as a young boy and through my early college years, I was a skinny, short, runt with no muscle or bulk to speak of, a soft looking girlish face and a voice to match. It was a nightmare for me as a male... especially around my classmates that were all MALE in every way.
All of that was of great value as I transitioned.
The first picture is a "before" picture taken at a game while in college. The second picture is me after my celebration makeover upon completion of my 3rd year of HRT at the beginning of March this year.
Big success Danielle! Wonderful!
About 15 months into HRT & electrolysis. I'd grown my hair out to just below shoulders by then
Quote from: Jessica on January 23, 2018, 08:56:45 AM
I know most women think catcalls are rude and obnoxious, but I'm looking forward to being whistled at. Is that just residual male thoughts that think women like it and take it as a compliment? In my male life, I would never consider disrespecting a woman like that, but as a woman it kinda thrills me.
Well, let's see if you change your mind when it happens because it's often terrifying. And more often that that it's just a bit of a pain.
For me, I've always had mail fail. I used to go into gay bars, and lesbians would chat me up (I like men). So the only change is that people don't correct themselves anymore.
There's nothing pleasant about being followed through London at night, or masturbated at in public, or unsolicited sexual suggestions being made on holiday by strangers. There's nothing flattering about workmen in white vans shouting explicit things from the rolled down window.
Not going to lie that a whistle can be nice, if the man is. But it's usually not and anything more than that can be seriously disheartening when you're out and about trying to get on with something.
I don't think I can pick out a time, it has been a while though, it is complete now from what I can tell.
Had to pick up antibiotics today. I had thought that when I had called to make my appointment for the doctor that they said something about Michael, it was all Michelle when I was at the office though. Anyway the pharmacist kept searching and searching for my prescription, after about 5 minutes she said that they only have this prescription with Michael on it. Maybe they misspelled the name I will call them real quick. I was like no, that's okay. I can't believe that I still have my name change paper in my bag but I am glad that I did. It still took her a little to get it. Are you his legal guardian then, or is he your son? So I had to explain. Then I had to go to the doctors office and fix all that because the last time I was there was more than a year ago so before my name change. She said I thought that you just spelled your name differently, never even occurred to me that you had your name changed. Just then my doctor was behind her going through paperwork and he said, don't worry about it, I didn't know last year when I examined her and still had no clue today with an even more thorough exam.
That has to be some kind of male fail even though I haven't presented male in years, don't you think?
Had to clarify something. I go to the VA for almost everything, they have not had a good track record of fixing my small illnesses though so last year I had to go to an outside doctor. That is the doctor I went to today.
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 20, 2018, 03:40:25 PM
I have always had male-fail... especially as a young boy and through my early college years, I was a skinny, short, runt with no muscle or bulk to speak of, a soft looking girlish face and a voice to match. It was a nightmare for me as a male... especially around my classmates that were all MALE in every way.
All of that was of great value as I transitioned.
The first picture is a "before" picture taken at a game while in college. The second picture is me after my celebration makeover upon completion of my 3rd year of HRT at the beginning of March this year.
Absolutely beautiful, both before and after.
Quote from: alex82 on March 22, 2018, 03:11:56 PM
Well, let's see if you change your mind when it happens because it's often terrifying. And more often that that it's just a bit of a pain.
For me, I've always had mail fail. I used to go into gay bars, and lesbians would chat me up (I like men). So the only change is that people don't correct themselves anymore.
There's nothing pleasant about being followed through London at night, or masturbated at in public, or unsolicited sexual suggestions being made on holiday by strangers. There's nothing flattering about workmen in white vans shouting explicit things from the rolled down window.
Not going to lie that a whistle can be nice, if the man is. But it's usually not and anything more than that can be seriously disheartening when you're out and about trying to get on with something.
If we're counting this then it happened to me more than a year before starting hrt.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,211575 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,211575)
It's only happened a few times, but always at night when no one else is around, it can be scary. Though I also do have a bit of a thing where I feel I need to experience it more to truly be able to call myself a woman.
At the 18 month mark, when my hair got long.
I'm expecting it anytime now!
Quote from: Jessica on March 22, 2018, 07:56:57 PM
I'm expecting it anytime now!
Jessica: When it happens it will be a memorable and epic moment for you... after that it will start happening more often as you continue your transition journey.
Please keep us updated.
Danielle
Actually as a high school boy and also a young college man in my early 20's I had more than occasional male-fail long before I began transitioning and starting HRT when I was 34 or 35 ... thanks to my short and small, non-muscular frame, my soft looking girlish face and a voice to match. At the time I was devastated and demoralized but now of course all of this was a big advantage for me when I started to transition 4 or 5 years ago and then began HRT just over 3 years ago and then I transitioned to living full-time a year and a half ago. Now I am happy to say that I never have female-fail !!!
It first happened probably 15-20 years before HRT for me. The couple years before coming out as trans were filled with male fail events constantly. My wife and I joked about it every time we hit the mall.
I cant remember when it began , but it was long before I physically began transition. I think because I was an incredibly effeminate child my movements and social cues always read female.
I was 10-11 months in before my first male fail.
I've had my hair long since university, and it is rather wavy anyway. Even when dressed in male 'work' clothes I have been called 'love' (a non-controversial term here in Yorkshire, UK!) Happens a lot when I am in jeans and jumper, usually when someone has seen me from the back.
I think I've been guessed a few times when dressed, but really not very often thankfully, and not recently to my knowledge (I am kind of "half-time" at the moment until I change jobs) , being 5'2'' and working on my voice have really helped I think.
I got male fail quite a lot before taking hormones, then I started living as a woman almost immediately after going on HRT.
Quote from: Jessica on January 23, 2018, 08:56:45 AM
I know most women think catcalls are rude and obnoxious, but I'm looking forward to being whistled at. Is that just residual male thoughts that think women like it and take it as a compliment? In my male life, I would never consider disrespecting a woman like that, but as a woman it kinda thrills me.
Jessica, You are gorgeous; so I think you shouldn't have any problems getting them. I still have testes so I know what I'm talking about. As a girl, I also think you are gorgeous.
Best wishes,
Christine
EDITED: 04 August 2018 - cj78
I am 11 months HRT and had my first male fail last weekend.
I was in a crap mood and that quickly put a smile on my face!!
Long blond hair, boobs and bikini tan lines,
I would be total male fail at the beach if I wore boy shorts and no shirt, just the thought of that makes me feel icky 😐
I'm still not on HRT but I've grown my hair out more than 10 years ago and since that I get a lot more male fails than before.
Last year I bought a car and I've been fixing it up in my spare time. There are two gas stations nearby where they always great me with "Can I help you, Miss?" and most of the time I'm looking quite messy and not trying to present as female when I go there after playing car mechanic for hours.
Also there were two recent instances where beggars referred to me as Miss when I was not trying to present as female.
The latest male fail was when I was called in to the local eye-specialist's office. I entered after I heard my name and then she repeated my name after I entered thinking that the wrong person came in to her office and asked if I was the person she called.
My first male fail was in September of 2009 which kick started my premature start of full time.
Apparently last week. A couple of my patients that I had never met before called me ma'am or got onto our dispatch for sending out two ladies to pick her up. I imagine once I get rid of the stubble it will happen more often. Last weekend I had a random guy open a door for me. That was very unexpected.
Hi Everyone
I suppose in the light of the question being asked. I was never misgendered as far as I know. I had a complete fail because in Dec 87, I got dressed as Sarah and for a couple of days as I travelled across Australia to see my uncle and everybody I came across, just assumed I was female (well I was). Then in Dec 88 I did the same exact thing as last year for a whole week and nobody suspected anything. This was before I changed my life around.
Then in Feb 89, I travelled to Sydney as Sarah and I have failed ever since, because I have been living as me!
Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
I guess my first male fail was when I was in elementary school my great grandfather called me a girl. I Guess he new better then me.
As an adult it was before I accepted my truth and I had a goatee though he was drunk and it was evening time.
Last year when I was in Spain I got into an argument about which restroom I should be using, this was before I came out of the closet so I was dressed as a male.
There is a difference between passing or at least not being chuckled at and male fail. At least in my mind.
I have not arrived at male fail. Sometimes I do not pass. Especially so in bad traffic on two lane roads. Okay that is not what we are talking about.
Perhaps a brain fail as I am tired. Not mail fail.
Sigh.
I occasionally get mail fail. I changed my name in Feb 2018 and moved three years ago, yet once or twice a month I receive junk mail with my dead name.
Love always -- Jessica Rose
Quote from: Jessica_Rose on October 18, 2024, 06:14:18 AMI occasionally get mail fail. I changed my name in Feb 2018 and moved three years ago, yet once or twice a month I receive junk mail with my dead name.
Love always -- Jessica Rose
Jess,
Just because some Bozo send you a mailing with your deadname that does not mean you male failed, at least not in my mind. That is some computer somewhere accessing a mailing list, as it is junk mail.
But you are right it is
mail fail, it is not
male fail.
You are a beautiful lady and person.
Christine
The easiest way to 'male fail'.. is to pluck your eyebrows into a nice feminine shape.. you could be on day zero of HRT.. Likewise, you can be on day 6432 of HRT and don't shave or put on fake beard - and pass as male.. so, the whole premise is a bit flawed..
However, I started to 'male fail' a lot earlier than I realised, only looking back does it now make a lot more sense. Walking into a men's room and someone saying 'Hey, love this is the men's' - me then being so embarrased that I ran into a cubicle and they started laughing.. to the waitress, who was serving us at our table, came back to check on us and asked 'Everything okay ladies'.. embarrassing as I was with my then wife.
All of these things happened over 12 months before I transitioned at a time when I was not intent on actually transitioning. So at the time I was almost ashamed of them (though inside my head they were little victories).. I had not started oestrogen at all either - however, my body does make it's own so not exactly without any help.. But I still stand with my premise - HRT is not what is making you male fail, your want to do so is.