Hi,
I read a couple of comments in Charlie Nicki's Diary that really hit home with me. Two people realized that their attraction to the female's around them was more envy than sexual attraction.
I never really thought about this until now. Looking back, I distinctly remember going on dates in high school with very beautiful girls. I didn't really want to make out with them. I just wanted to look at them. I was so jealous of what they looked like. I'm sure they thought I was a little strange that I wasn't trying to make out with them. Sometimes we would eventually make out but the initial motivation was to be close to someone I wanted to be like.
When I look at women, especially beautiful women, I don't believe I'm looking at them sexually. I believe I'm just jealous of their looks mostly.
Does this sort of thing sound strange, familiar? I guess this confuses me a bit because I always thought I was attracted to woman.
Take care,
Paige :)
I'm guessing this can only happen if your sexuality is more fluid. I'm straight and I have never mistaken my jealousy for women as attraction. I'm only attracted to men.
Paige,
I can relate to that guy experience somewhat back in high school, but I was very much more physically attracted to the beautiful girls. I did say sometimes then wow, if I were a girl I would want to look as good as she looks. But I did not think at that time that I wanted to be a girl.
They did not have to look fabulous to be attracted to them, but if they did look beautiful, that
was a plus. Guys are very visually attracted for the most part I think.
But there are lots of interesting and otherwise attractive ladies who are not super pretty, so looks are definitely not everything. Good looks gets one noticed for that, good looks. But then you might not be an interesting or a good, warm hearted person, even with those good looks.
Chrissy
Little bit of attraction but mostly envy. Realized that from the beginning.
A lot of "I wanna wear that" along with the "I wanna be her".
I was always wishing I could wear what the girls were wearing and would try to copy things I liked when I had the chance to dress up.
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Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on February 06, 2018, 06:33:04 PM
I'm guessing this can only happen if your sexuality is more fluid. I'm straight and I have never mistaken my jealousy for women as attraction. I'm only attracted to men.
Same for me. I think if anything more recently I confused the two (attraction and envy) and that made me super dysphoric. Is that weird? I just knew I don't want to be with a woman, I want to be one. I think maybe hormones plays some role in sexuality. Maybe I'm bi after all but wanted to identify with my femininity through my attraction to men. Who knows, but I think it's kinda cute if a girl likes me when I'm a girl too lol
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Did you have sex with women? As in, did you put your penis in a woman's vagina and enjoy it? I'm pretty sure that counts as sexual attraction! Maybe it's also envy too, but it's definitely sexual attraction if you engaged in intercourse.
There's nothing wrong with that of course. It just means you're sexually attracted to women. Or maybe you've been bisexual all along and didn't realize it until later. That's fine too.
I have a hard time separating envy from sexual attraction, perhaps because I am probably closer to asexual than anything else. I never really understood sexual attraction. I realize now that it was both: I envied women and I was attracted to them, to the extent that I am attracted to anyone. My attraction to women is more evident when I realize that I am repulsed by men.
Quote from: KathyLauren on February 06, 2018, 07:25:37 PM
I have a hard time separating envy from sexual attraction, perhaps because I am probably closer to asexual than anything else. I never really understood sexual attraction. I realize now that it was both: I envied women and I was attracted to them, to the extent that I am attracted to anyone. My attraction to women is more evident when I realize that I am repulsed by men.
Almost mirror minds Kathy!
Paige!...Does it sound familiar?... Yes!!!... Quite!!!
For me...My entire life for 50+ years...I thought the attraction I had always felt for females was normal and my sexual relationships with women were normal...I had nothing to compare it to...
As I was starting out on the path of transition, I came to realize what I had always felt was closer to hero worship of women... All of the great loves of my life were the ones that I wanted to be the most... My attraction quickly slipped away never to be seen again and here I am... married for the first time in my life, to a man... life is amazing... Things we can assume are fact about ourself for a lifetime... can fall away, to reveal a deeper truth, when we are ready to receive it...
Onward we go brave sisters....
Ashley 😀❤️🌻
No sure which camp I fall into...Envy maybe...I fell head over heels in love with my wife the first time I set eyes on her and she felt exactly the same way about me. Up until that point I found the whole sex thing quite tiresome and really didn't understand what the big deal was....In my head I was always the woman.
Despite being totally, completely head over heels in love it did not change how I felt but I am still deeply in love with her.
on the other hand...
I had what could only be a crush on a guy I worked with when I was nursing...I used to think of him in ways I never had before...I didn't like that another guy would want me because I was a guy. I wanted him to want me because I was a girl.
I still remain ambivalent when it comes to sex....maybe when I get the right equipment it might be different ;D
Liz
It was a bit of both for me really. I was definitely attracted to women, though I was really too shy to do much about it early on in life. Back then the walls I put in my head interfered with me knowing exactly what I wanted. At some point though (early 30's maybe) I knew I wanted to be a woman (just didn't think getting there was possible) and especially after that point while still being attracted to women, I was also envious.
I also find men generally icky and am utterly unattracted to them, but as my desires of being a woman became harder and harder to ignore (last 4 years), I also had to start viewing myself as the woman when having sex with my wife. Stranger still (to me), while I still find men unattractive, my sexual fantasies started to incorporate penile penetration into my imagined vagina with either some generic mannequin-esque male figure or another woman with a strap on.
At this point I am very curious to see what happens once I am on hrt...*brave new world*. Scary and exciting :)
-Julie
Quote from: transgenx on February 06, 2018, 08:55:31 PM
I also find men generally icky and am utterly unattracted to them, but as my desires of being a woman became harder and harder to ignore (last 4 years), I also had to start viewing myself as the woman when having sex with my wife. Stranger still (to me), while I still find men unattractive, my sexual fantasies started to incorporate penile penetration into my imagined vagina with either some generic mannequin-esque male figure or another woman with a strap on.
At this point I am very curious to see what happens once I am on hrt...*brave new world*. Scary and exciting :)
-Julie
Pretty similar here, though no penile penetration or strap-on fantasies. Getting close to a year on HRT and I'm more convinced than ever that I am a lesbian. I read the posts here from girls getting excited about dates with guys and I while I'm happy for them, I just can't picture myself in their place.
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So much of this sounds familiar. I figured out early on that I was bi. I was more than capable of talking to and being friends with girls but I couldn't take it further and I kinda knew why, but not quite. Essentially I'd go to sleep and be a woman and I would have a gorgeous boyfriend and that would make me rather happy. I've only ever been with girls which is fun but I can totally relate to the envy. I think that ruined a few friendships over the years. In terms of my current sexual attraction I am attracted to my partner who is a woman and to women in general but I also fancy some men. I certainly dream about being with a guy as a woman (that's been a constant since I started puberty!). I doubt I will ever act on it though.
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I have always been curious what it would be like to be attracted to women, I think that my life would have been easier had I been attracted to them. The grass is always greener right?
😄 Like physically repulsed by men? Just to clarify, man hate runs rampant sometimes. So, do you girls get that, uuuuh in the pit of your stomachs with women that I do when I am around a man that I am attracted to? Also, I can't imagine a girl, wanting I guess, or having the physical desire that men do, it can be intoxicating being wanted that much. Just a need really that they have but it feels good to be the object of that need. Pathetic of me huh? 😆 I know we vilify men, I am guilty too, but they can be pretty incredible as well.
Hmmm, I am pretty sure that I have always had a feel for the distinction. Probably because of how difficult it was for me being with girls. It was always like, Okay, now what? That? Really? No I don't think I want to, pretty sure I won't like it. I was curious, you hear how guys talk about girls and it sounds wonderful, but I never managed to enjoy it. I would think that it would be easy to confuse the two feelings and I probably did before going out with a girl the first time. I do know that I thought about them all of the time but really I knew long before ever dating a girl that I wanted to be one.
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 07, 2018, 06:41:14 AM
😄 Like physically repulsed by men?
For me, yes. There is probably a lot going in for me subconsciously surrounding that. Probably some leftover homophobia from when I thought I was a man. Probably some body dysphoria about penises. But the idea of someone bringing a penis near me... Ugh! Get that thing away from me!
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 07, 2018, 06:41:14 AM
😄 Like physically repulsed by men? Just to clarify, man hate runs rampant sometimes. So, do you girls get that, uuuuh in the pit of your stomachs with women that I do when I am around a man that I am attracted to? 😆 I know we vilify men, I am guilty too, but they can be pretty incredible as well.
Just to clarify, I don't hate or villify men. But if I take any given male off of the street and think about being intimate with him, it gives me the willies! Now the crazy part, as I mentioned earlier, in fantasies if I take a generic male form without any features, it is a turn on to imagine penetration into a vagina (imagined on my part at this point) by said generic male's penis. So, I am open with myself about being trans and all that entails, but there are parts of my brain would only let me consider being with a man in the most generic sense. I suspect after HRT I will find myself in the bi category.
-Julie
For me its a bit of both. I am technically bi-sexual.. but I ended up marrying a man..
I was always jealous of women, that they got to wear such nice outfits.. and when it came to going out, women can wear open toed shoes anywhere..
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 07, 2018, 06:41:14 AM
I have always been curious what it would be like to be attracted to women, I think that my life would have been easier had I been attracted to them. The grass is always greener right?
[emoji1] Like physically repulsed by men? Just to clarify, man hate runs rampant sometimes. So, do you girls get that, uuuuh in the pit of your stomachs with women that I do when I am around a man that I am attracted to? Also, I can't imagine a girl, wanting I guess, or having the physical desire that men do, it can be intoxicating being wanted that much. Just a need really that they have but it feels good to be the object of that need. Pathetic of me huh? [emoji38] I know we vilify men, I am guilty too, but they can be pretty incredible as well.
I'm not physically repulsed by men, but definitely not aroused by them and cannot ever see having that "uuuuh in the pit of your stomach" feeling with a man. I cannot see me having any romantic emotional attachment with a man either.
I have wondered that if I had been attracted to men, I might have not tried to fight off the trans beast for so long. You know, the societal norm of heterosexuality.
Hard to overcome those norms that I grew up with, I did wonder if being trans meant that I was actually attracted to men subconsciously. That wonder dropped away completely after I figured out I needed to transition. Since starting HRT my sex drive has been close to nothing, but the few thoughts I've had have all been lesbian.
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I realized a few years ago that I was very envious over female the body the way the look, what they wear, just who they are, I never was happy in any relationship with a female before except one and it can't work out between us. I have never been in an actual relationship with a male yet. I have done stuff with them when I was younger always dress as a female and that was fine I tried to do stuff with them as a guy and could not it did not go anywhere it was not me. I am not real attracted to females do I look at them yes but I do not really think I want to be with them I think I wish I could have her eyes and her legs and her eyes and I love the way she dresses where did she get that I want it. I no longer imagine myself marrying a female, living with one, holding one at night, I want to be one.
Hey Paige,
I don't remember if I gave my opinion about this in my thread but here it is: I can relate to the envy part, not to the attraction part because I've always been attracted to men. But as I move forward in my transition, I've realized that silly and seemingly unimportant comments I used to make like "women are so lucky because all their clothes are great and they have so many options" etc...deep down showed some level of envy.
Yes I certainly have experienced both romantic attraction and envy of the female body.
I have never had much interest in sexual activity and am now asexual. However when younger it was occasionally women to whom I was attracted romantically never to men. But mainly I just wished and still wish to be close to women as friends or better still to be treated by women as a woman.
The main area of my dysphoria is a every day envy of the female body - face and curves and shapeliness.
I feel my envy is greater than my previous romantic attraction.
Hence I want my body to be corrected!
Pamela
😊 We are all so different. I think that is a good thing. I tried so hard to be with women so I could be normal and I just couldn't. I did wish when I was changing one way and girls were changing another, that I could change the way they did. When I told my family about my feelings it did not go over very well I am afraid. Then I tried to go out with my neighbor, who I wanted so much to be like, it was so weird. We had been friends for a two years and did everything together. We would lay on top of each other when we were sledding, sleep side by side on camp outs with their father in a tent or their basement in the winter, lay in her bed together listening to music, it all seemed right, normal. I could not kiss her even once though, I don't think she ever forgave me.
I think that I understand how some of you feel about men, it is probably the same way I am towards women.
In the 70s, before puberty... I. You know, I don't remember at all. I got tired of being made fun of so I tried to be like the other boys, I remember that. I also remember play experimenting with boys AND girls. I was not always the boy with the girls but I was never the boy with the boys, only the girl. I don't think anything can be read into that though, I was younger and they certainly weren't going to be the girl. Where does sexual attraction come from? I don't know. Some shrinks in the 80s suggested that my orientation was because of being molested, even when I was getting on hrt more recently they had the same concerns. Back then it was what made my grandmother finally take me out of the institution, 'He's always been this way you quack, way before then. Why am I wasting my money with you?' I don't know what about me changed their mind when I was going through the VA for hrt, 2 psychiatrists and 2 out of the 3 psychologists were completely against it at first. They didn't believe that transition was right for anyone, not just me, but they all changed. I remember sitting across from each of those men when it sunk in completely, the confusion on their faces. I was not like them, how it was possible they had no idea but I was not like them at all.
Went a little afield. 😁
I think that if one's attraction is towards women that it is not only possible but probable that the line between attraction and envy get garbled. If one's attraction is as of yet unknown it would be very hard to know the difference between the two. Possible why those of us who have only ever liked men have had less trouble separating the two.
I was always very envious of women but I honestly never had the slightest attraction to women. I find the idea if anything sexual with a female totally revolting. I really don't even like being touched by females. I've noticed a lot of girls and women are very affectionate with each other. That's one way I'm quite different from many women. I'm not at all affectionate with other females. If they get too physically close to me it annoys me and it's definitely an unwelcome invasion of my space. I had a friend who was very touchy/huggy and I finally told her to please stop touching me all the time. I've always been very affectionate with males though. I really don't know why I'm like that. It could be because of my mom. When I was little she didn't want me in her space at all. If I tried to crawl into her lap she would shove me away from her and sometimes she would even smack me. Not too long ago she told me I was an extremely needy and clingy child and that I had been extremely annoying when I was little.
Equal parts warring with each other.
Seriously did a number on my dating life.
Quote from: Julia1996 on February 07, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
When I was little she didn't want me in her space at all. If I tried to crawl into her lap she would shove me away from her and sometimes she would even smack me. Not too long ago she told me I was an extremely needy and clingy child and that I had been extremely annoying when I was little.
Wow, that sounds horrible. You sound very well adjusted for all of that. Maybe me not having parents was a good thing, I turned out messed up enough.
Makes perfect sense and I can totally relate! I am attracted only to women, with only a couple men that I have ever thought were kind of attractive. Mostly......if it has a penis, I don't want anything to do with it. ha ha. I definitely do have some of a sexual attraction to women.....but the majority of my attraction to them is absolutely envy. It was quite an interesting thing for me to finally recognize. For years and years I would admire the shape of their bodies, and admire the clothes they wore and their beautiful soft faces and long hair and things. And it didn't make any sense to me why the other "guys" around me were talking all sexual about them and objectifying them. And I felt like I was super attracted to them as well, but it was always just an envious "I want to be them" kind of attraction. So now that I am well into my transition and things, and I know what is going on, I am able to be more confident in my knowing that yes, looking at a woman does have some sexual element to it, but mostly it just turns me on to think of myself being them. So the sexual feelings are not actually for "them". They are just sexual feelings that get aroused when I think of myself BEING them.
I do think that may have some relevance. My first wife was beautiful and loved having sex. I was not all that much into it. But we did make a lot of memories over our seven years together. It was only after getting married that my gender confusion came to the forefront. The size of my penis has always been a cause for shame. It has always been in the background. My second wife, is not so beautiful, on the outside otherwise she is my rock and gorgeous on the inside. I think I was more into finding companionship than a sex life. Although we did have children, I was wasted the two times we conceived. I was self medicating after the death of my first marriage, my mother and my father and the fear I may have caused my mothers death. She had always talked of walking into traffic and the incident happened a week after she found me crossdressing in my motel room.Once the children were born I had found my "higher power" and quit all my bad habits cold turkey. I also got a vasectomy. But my confusion has always been there. Unfortunately at the time there were no answers to my questions. I think connecting with my current wife of 35 years was an acknowledgement that sex was not important. I do envy women for their ability to change their look. I envy women's ability to have babies. I appreciate woman's method of problem solving through consensus. I enjoy the attention pretty women get. Unfortunately the idea of anal sex makes me uneasy. Don't get me wrong if you enjoy it, go for it. and I can't get surgeries to make me more female. If I could do that I may be able to consider sex with men. God, I hope this makes sense as it's only taken a lifetime to finally open the closet door and acknowledge who was inside. I am thankful for the opportunity and especially thankful for having a forum to discuss the topic. I keep asking myself whatif this site and information was available in the seventies.
At the risk of seeming to butt in where I don't belong, I find this thread has sucked me in. Please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
When I first read this, as an SO, it seemed scary. Any of you with wives probably know one of our biggest fears is that our trans-spouses either realize their sexual attraction is not what they thought it was, or that hormones reveal a latent orientation, or that it changes altogether because of HRT. Those of us sticking with our spouses are doing so because they told us that no way are they going to change -- that they are certain of their orientation.
So initially, reading this, it is a little ominous to see that many trans people can be surprised by hidden feelings and attractions (or lack thereof) when they thought with so much certainty that they knew themselves.
BUT, I am wondering if I am not looking at it right. Maybe the envy feelings are just another level of attraction? I mean, do those of you with wives feel like any revelation about this puts your feelings for her into a different light? Or does it just add another layer to what you knew was there? Do envy and sexual attraction coexist for you or are they mutually exclusive? Are there some women you feel envy towards and some you are attracted to? The same women?
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 07, 2018, 11:27:15 AM
I think that if one's attraction is towards women that it is not only possible but probable that the line between attraction and envy get garbled. If one's attraction is as of yet unknown it would be very hard to know the difference between the two. Possible why those of us who have only ever liked men have had less trouble separating the two.
- I think this is probably right...
Maybe I shouldn't be asking these questions, but know that I am aware that everyone is different and that what anyone says here does not necessarily reflect the thoughts and feelings of MY spouse. And like Julie said, I get that you can be attracted to women and still have desires to be penetrated like a women. I am just trying to understand a mindset better that is truly foreign to me.
If anyone is curious, THIS CIS woman does not remember ever feeling any envy towards any man about appearances and very few towards women. Maybe for clear skin or a good sense of style. And while I can recognize that a woman is sexually attractive, I have not ever thought it strong enough that I wanted to be intimate with them (though I have kissed a few during parties in my younger days in SF but no tongue so pretty innocently).
Again, sorry if I am butting in, but I am fascinated by this discussion. Thanks for sharing :)
I think homophobia also plays a big part. I know it did for me.
I don't think it's all nature. There's a big nurture component here as well.
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
At the risk of seeming to butt in where I don't belong, I find this thread has sucked me in. Please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
When I first read this, as an SO, it seemed scary. Any of you with wives probably know one of our biggest fears is that our trans-spouses either realize their sexual attraction is not what they thought it was, or that hormones reveal a latent orientation, or that it changes altogether because of HRT. Those of us sticking with our spouses are doing so because they told us that no way are they going to change -- that they are certain of their orientation.
So initially, reading this, it is a little ominous to see that many trans people can be surprised by hidden feelings and attractions (or lack thereof) when they thought with so much certainty that they knew themselves.
BUT, I am wondering if I am not looking at it right. Maybe the envy feelings are just another level of attraction? I mean, do those of you with wives feel like any revelation about this puts your feelings for her into a different light? Or does it just add another layer to what you knew was there? Do envy and sexual attraction coexist for you or are they mutually exclusive? Are there some women you feel envy towards and some you are attracted to? The same women?
- I think this is probably right...
Maybe I shouldn't be asking these questions, but know that I am aware that everyone is different and that what anyone says here does not necessarily reflect the thoughts and feelings of MY spouse. And like Julie said, I get that you can be attracted to women and still have desires to be penetrated like a women. I am just trying to understand a mindset better that is truly foreign to me.
If anyone is curious, THIS CIS woman does not remember ever feeling any envy towards any man about appearances and very few towards women. Maybe for clear skin or a good sense of style. And while I can recognize that a woman is sexually attractive, I have not ever thought it strong enough that I wanted to be intimate with them (though I have kissed a few during parties in my younger days in SF but no tongue so pretty innocently).
Again, sorry if I am butting in, but I am fascinated by this discussion. Thanks for sharing :)
😊 Not sure about anyone else but I welcome you and your input. It's easy to see where it is relevant to you and your situation.
I won't say much here because your question is not directed at me or anyone with my orientation however, I did want to welcome you 😁 and give a little something that may ease your mind.
Yes we are all different and transition does change us, sometimes in ways that we didn't anticipate, but most of us are pretty set as we enter. Meaning, we kind of have a feel going in what our orientation CAN be as transition takes hold. Honestly, it doesn't change as much as you might think. Like, I don't know the actual number but I am pretty sure that the larger percentage of MtF prefer women after transition. Possibly bi being second, straight 3rd and asexual last. That is what I always see anyway. I have seen quite a few that their orientation DID change and they stayed with their wife. Some things are more important than sex I guess. 😊
I am glad that you can be understanding and work your way through what is tough for both of you. I really hope the best for you. :eusa_shhh: :icon_caffine:
I could have sworn that I posted in here, I can't find it.
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
At the risk of seeming to butt in where I don't belong, I find this thread has sucked me in. Please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
For me, your input is most welcome
Quote
When I first read this, as an SO, it seemed scary. Any of you with wives probably know one of our biggest fears is that our trans-spouses either realize their sexual attraction is not what they thought it was, or that hormones reveal a latent orientation, or that it changes altogether because of HRT. Those of us sticking with our spouses are doing so because they told us that no way are they going to change -- that they are certain of their orientation.
there's always the possibility of latent desires surfacing. It's as scary on our side as well. I, personally, don't have any inclination at all towards men. I can consider a man handsome, ugly, so-so, personality+-, etc. Attracted to ... nope. IF (big if) it occurs I hope it falls in line with my next comment.
Quote
BUT, I am wondering if I am not looking at it right. Maybe the envy feelings are just another level of attraction? I mean, do those of you with wives feel like any revelation about this puts your feelings for her into a different light? Or does it just add another layer to what you knew was there? Do envy and sexual attraction coexist for you or are they mutually exclusive? Are there some women you feel envy towards and some you are attracted to? The same women?
Not for me. I've seen women that I envy, attracted, no. Could I be? Yes, however, I am devoted to my wife and that truth stifles any further thoughts along that road. I will say, in regards to my wife, I am both envious and attracted. Does one amplify the other? I have no idea. If it does, that's OK by me.
Quote
Again, sorry if I am butting in, but I am fascinated by this discussion. Thanks for sharing :)
We need more SO input. I can't speak for others, however, you can butt right in on my topics or comments at any time - even to ask questions of your own. More information and viewpoints are better for everyone. IMO
I am both attracted to and envious of beautiful women. Have been since the moment I first had these thoughts, and only ever AS a woman. In a way I kind of wish I was attracted to men, it would make life a bit easier.. but nope its just not there for me.
I do not get being envious of women yet repelled by them at the same time, seems kind of incongruous... but I'm not one to judge.
Just my thoughts :)
Quote from: Doreen on February 07, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
I am both attracted to and envious of beautiful women. Have been since the moment I first had these thoughts, and only ever AS a woman. In a way I kind of wish I was attracted to men, it would make life a bit easier.. but nope its just not there for me.
I do not get being envious of women yet repelled by them at the same time, seems kind of incongruous... but I'm not one to judge.
Just my thoughts :)
For me it's very simple. I am envious of some women. I'm envious of the fact they were born female and have a natural vagina and don't have to have one created by surgery that won't ever be as good as a biological vagina. Though I don't like children and don't want them I'm envious they can give birth. I'm repelled by the idea of sex or intimacy with a woman but I'm not repelled by woman in general. Though I will say I really don't have any female friends. Since I've transitioned I have found that a lot of women my age up to about 40 years old don't care for me at all. I'm sure it's not that I'm being outed as trans because people I don't know almost never can tell I'm trans. It's hard to describe how women react to me. It's not blatant rudeness, it's a kind of subtle hostility. I have no clue why. I'm always nice to everyone unless they give me a reason not to be.
Gallinarosa, I don't find your input an intrusion at all. I enjoy hearing thoughts from SOs. We get so wrapped up in our transitions and worries we forget about how a SO is feeling. One thing to remember is that just because a woman has a desire for penetration that totally doesn't mean she wants to be with a man. Women use strap ons with each other and women also use them with their cis husbands. Because someone transitions doesn't mean their orientation will change. Obviously your SO loves you. If your SO does have SRS down the road and has the desire for penetration there isn't any reason you couldn't satisfy that need with a strap on. And forgive me if I'm being too personal.
Gallinarosa, please don't apologize for participating. We need to hear from more SOs, and this thread especially is just crying out for your perspective.
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
BUT, I am wondering if I am not looking at it right. Maybe the envy feelings are just another level of attraction? I mean, do those of you with wives feel like any revelation about this puts your feelings for her into a different light? Or does it just add another layer to what you knew was there? Do envy and sexual attraction coexist for you or are they mutually exclusive? Are there some women you feel envy towards and some you are attracted to? The same women?
For me, envy is mostly about appearance, Attraction is mostly about personality. So I can be envious without being attracted and attracted without being envious. I have really only felt both at once for one woman. I married her.
Which brings up what Faith said:
Quote from: Faith on February 07, 2018, 05:32:10 PM
Could I be? Yes, however, I am devoted to my wife and that truth stifles any further thoughts along that road.
It hasn't happened to me yet, but I suppose it could, that I might be attracted to another woman. But I feel passionately about committment; it is one of the "female" characteristics that convinced me that I really am who I am. I would never have considered cheating on my wife before, but now that she has demonstrated her committment to me by sticking with me on this incredible journey, I feel that even stronger. She has nothing to fear, ever, in that regard.
Perhaps your spouse feels the same way.
Hi Gallinarosa I was pleased to see your input and I will explain for me. I have been in some missed up relationships all my life basically. I have cheated on all of my girlfriends with other woman and men. I have never been happy in any of my relationships as I had to try to pretend to be something I am not. I was trying to act like as much of a male as I really possibly could. The only reason I cheated with males was I could totally act female and that made me happy I could be me. I could never have enjoyable sex if I did not imagine my self as a female and the person I was with as a male. I know I basically lied to myself and everyone for years. I have always loved the way women looked and I wanted so much to look like them and be one. Now I just want to be happy with myself no more lies no more cheating to try to be someone I am not or to get what I am not getting. Yes there is one female that I love but things will not work out she said she could never be with another female as she is not attracted to female she still likes my personality but nothing would happen. I did fall in love with everything about her. So that is my feeling
Quote from: Faith on February 07, 2018, 05:32:10 PM
I will say, in regards to my wife, I am both envious and attracted. Does one amplify the other? I have no idea. If it does, that's OK by me.
This is a great answer. I will say that many CIS wives I have spoken to have a knee-jerk reaction to feel hurt by the thought of their transwife envying them. But I think it is because the immediate fear is, "Do they ONLY envy me?" But it takes awhile sometimes to clarify that in your head. I think the other fear is about while you are having sex, wondering if your transwife is thinking about you and how much they love you, or are they thinking about being you. I'm not sure if it matters. Probably, for the CIS wife it matters if/when they are feeling insecure as it makes you feel more like a vehicle for desirous thoughts than the object of them. I don't know. It is all very complicated but at least at this point I find it fascinating instead of scary. I am now wondering if this is something lesbians have always dealt with? (This is one of those places where suddenly being in a lesbian relationship can be confusing for a straight girl.) I wonder if it would be too obnoxious to ask some of my friends ;-)
Quote from: Julia1996 on February 07, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
Since I've transitioned I have found that a lot of women my age up to about 40 years old don't care for me at all. I'm sure it's not that I'm being outed as trans because people I don't know almost never can tell I'm trans. It's hard to describe how women react to me. It's not blatant rudeness, it's a kind of subtle hostility. I have no clue why. I'm always nice to everyone unless they give me a reason not to be.
Julia, I cannot imagine why. We haven't met in person, but I love your posts. Maybe because I am over 40. Or maybe because all of my friends are sarcastic and witty and blunt. And no, that is not too personal.
Thank you all for being inclusive. It really is nice. And if my spouse reads this: I swear, dear, I am not freaking out. I am just uncontrollably curious. Hahaha!
Quote from: Julia1996 on February 07, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
... Though I will say I really don't have any female friends. Since I've transitioned I have found that a lot of women my age up to about 40 years old don't care for me at all. I'm sure it's not that I'm being outed as trans because people I don't know almost never can tell I'm trans. It's hard to describe how women react to me. It's not blatant rudeness, it's a kind of subtle hostility. I have no clue why. I'm always nice to everyone unless they give me a reason not to be...
Quick observation in here for you Julia. My sister-in-law faced this same issue quite frequently. I could see it happen and also could see why. The women felt threatened thus tried to excise her from their immediate circles. She did not do anything overt to cause it, she was just herself. She also tended the attract male attention without trying, most were unwanted and unsolicited. She couldn't understand it.
I am not saying that's the case with you. I'm just pointing out one similar scenario.
Hello LaRell
I couldn't agree more. You describe precisely how I feel and have always felt.
Hello Gallinarosa
You are very welcome. Always nice and worthwhile to see perspectives from the SO side.
Yes I see envy as another level of attraction; they coexist.
Hello FinallyMichelle
I agree with your statistical assumption. From reading so many posts over many months on Susan's. I have no doubt that most MtFs before and after transition are attracted by women; the older ones like me are probably asexual. Some are attracted by men or by both which is fine of course as we all different.
However it is extraordinary that 30 years ago, shrinks all seemed to think we must be attracted to men!
Pamela
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
At the risk of seeming to butt in where I don't belong, I find this thread has sucked me in. Please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
When I first read this, as an SO, it seemed scary. Any of you with wives probably know one of our biggest fears is that our trans-spouses either realize their sexual attraction is not what they thought it was, or that hormones reveal a latent orientation, or that it changes altogether because of HRT. Those of us sticking with our spouses are doing so because they told us that no way are they going to change -- that they are certain of their orientation.
So initially, reading this, it is a little ominous to see that many trans people can be surprised by hidden feelings and attractions (or lack thereof) when they thought with so much certainty that they knew themselves.
BUT, I am wondering if I am not looking at it right. Maybe the envy feelings are just another level of attraction? I mean, do those of you with wives feel like any revelation about this puts your feelings for her into a different light? Or does it just add another layer to what you knew was there? Do envy and sexual attraction coexist for you or are they mutually exclusive? Are there some women you feel envy towards and some you are attracted to? The same women?
- I think this is probably right...
Maybe I shouldn't be asking these questions, but know that I am aware that everyone is different and that what anyone says here does not necessarily reflect the thoughts and feelings of MY spouse. And like Julie said, I get that you can be attracted to women and still have desires to be penetrated like a women. I am just trying to understand a mindset better that is truly foreign to me.
If anyone is curious, THIS CIS woman does not remember ever feeling any envy towards any man about appearances and very few towards women. Maybe for clear skin or a good sense of style. And while I can recognize that a woman is sexually attractive, I have not ever thought it strong enough that I wanted to be intimate with them (though I have kissed a few during parties in my younger days in SF but no tongue so pretty innocently).
Again, sorry if I am butting in, but I am fascinated by this discussion. Thanks for sharing :)
As others have said, no need to apologize. A lot of us would benefit from more SO input everywhere on this site.
My wife also worries that I will become attracted to men, and since I do want GCS that I will be curious about it. She also reads here about some whose orientation flipped during or after transition, which hasn't helped her. I only want GCS in order to feel whole.
I said before that I'm not repulsed by men, but not at all attracted to them . I meant that in a general way, I still have some good friends that are male and did not run away or shun me when I came out to them. Sexually though, I don't want to be anywhere near a penis.
I can answer some of your questions but of course this is my view and experience and may not apply to others.
Attraction and admiration can be somewhat if not mutually exclusive.
Took a while to figure it out as younger me blurred the lines there and caused my wife a lot of pain. Partly because I was still hiding the "I want to be them" and partly because I wasn't totally aware of why I seemed drawn to certain women until I realized that I am trans. I could not explain that while yes, I was looking, its beacuase I want to be them, not be with them. I didn't want to be them as in trade lives, I just wanted my body to look like theirs.
My admiration tended toward someone more similar to my body type, tall and blond or redhead and a more girly girl style. My wife is shorter with dark hair and while feminine, certainly not a girly girl. So while I was ( and still am) attracted to my wife, I really didn't envy her, other than for being a cis female. ( I am talking my trans related envy only here; she is a kind, friendly, and smart woman)
This has caused some issues now, since I haven't been able to make her see that just because I like to use make up and wear dresses and skirts, I don't need her too.
I totally understand why she may feel the way she does. Historically I made it seem like that's what I was attracted too and that's the style I lean towards as I transition.
I think you answered one part yourself. You are a cis woman as you said, so you would not have the same type of envy that we are talking about here.
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 07, 2018, 04:10:53 PM
[emoji4] Not sure about anyone else but I welcome you and your input. It's easy to see where it is relevant to you and your situation.
I won't say much here because your question is not directed at me or anyone with my orientation however, I did want to welcome you [emoji16] and give a little something that may ease your mind.
Yes we are all different and transition does change us, sometimes in ways that we didn't anticipate, but most of us are pretty set as we enter. Meaning, we kind of have a feel going in what our orientation CAN be as transition takes hold. Honestly, it doesn't change as much as you might think. Like, I don't know the actual number but I am pretty sure that the larger percentage of MtF prefer women after transition. Possibly bi being second, straight 3rd and asexual last. That is what I always see anyway. I have seen quite a few that their orientation DID change and they stayed with their wife. Some things are more important than sex I guess. [emoji4]
I am glad that you can be understanding and work your way through what is tough for both of you. I really hope the best for you. :eusa_shhh: :icon_caffine:
I've noticed a similar split of attraction that you have, though I would add a couple of things.
******The following is totally unscientific data based mostly on about 18 months of my observations reading posts here on Susan's. ********
Those that were attracted to men before transition tend to stay that way.
It also seems that the younger transitioners tend to follow the same percentages of straight-gay-bi-asexual-etc as the general population.
The older transitioners seem to be in three roughly equal groupings. Lesbian identity (women only), straight identity (men only) with bisexual and asexual and all the rest in the last group.
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This is a very interesting topic. For me, there were always certain aspects of women that I envied. But I was also always sexually attracted to women, and still am. The envy part encompassed things like fashion-sense, personality traits that I admired and desired, and to some degree physical aspects that I desired in myself. It was never so much make-up, hair, or clothing. Sure, I appreciate well done make applications that compliment looks, or what I see as nice hair, or flattering clothing. But those were things to me - objects.
My sexual desires never changed. I know my spouse was very worried about that but I wasn't. My sexual desire for or attraction to women is different now, but still just as strong. It's gone from the usual hormone driven "I want it I want it" mode, to more of a warm, sensual, loving, "I wanna cuddle and caress and kiss" kind of desire. While happy endings are still important, more for my spouse than me I believe, it's the intimacy with being with another woman - my loving wife, that rings my bells.
We both look at women and do the usual "she shouldn't wear that outfit" to "ooooo...I love that outfit...or purse...or shoes" kind of people watching. Well, really woman watching. LOL And yes, we see some curvy beautiful figures and we both envy them.
Wow thanks everyone for all the responses. It certainly sounds like others have a bit of uncertainty in this area. :)
Gallinarosa as far as my attraction, I'm not 100% sure, perhaps there's a bisexual side to me. I've never explored this, I may be in denial but I have so many hangups with maleness I some how doubt I would ever go there. Perhaps I would end up asexual.
It's kind of academic for me. My SO isn't the least bit happy about me transitioning. She barely tolerates me taking low dose E. If I do take the plunge, we will probably divorce after 30 years together. She doesn't want to be in a lesbian relationship.
Take care,
Paige :)
I wondered about this when I began my transition. I knew I was definitely attracted to men. I've only ever dated women (long long ago), and remember how uncomfortable I felt about sex. Yes, I enjoyed it physically, but not mentally or emotionally. I know now that I was just not comfortable with who I was and my supposed role.
Now that I've been transitioning, I can say without a doubt that I am definitely attracted to men AND women. Right now I think I lean more towards men, but that may be because I've repressed that side of me my entire life & want to finally explore it. But I'd definitely still be open to a relationship with another woman.
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 07:58:09 PM
I am now wondering if this is something lesbians have always dealt with? (This is one of those places where suddenly being in a lesbian relationship can be confusing for a straight girl.) I wonder if it would be too obnoxious to ask some of my friends ;-)
Well having lived as a gay man for most of my life, I can tell you it can definitely happen. In my case, I was never envious of any of my ex boyfriends, it was more like I felt the need to keep up and be just as good as they were in whatever they were better than me. In my head it was some sort of competition where I couldn't allow myself to be less attractive than they were. This can of course get really mentally and physically exhausting, for example if you're not naturally motivated or inclined to be a gym rat yet your significant other is one. This is probably one of the things I'm happy I will never have to feel again! Although knowing my luck, I'll end up being a lesbian and will still have this problem lol. Kidding!
maybe not.
Quote from: gallinarosa on February 07, 2018, 07:58:09 PMThank you all for being inclusive. It really is nice. And if my spouse reads this: I swear, dear, I am not freaking out. I am just uncontrollably curious. Hahaha!
You are the best.
I wonder how often trans women hook up with each other?
This is a very interesting topic.
Like Ashley, for my entire life I have had a lot of relationships with women. I have been married and had live in partners. However what I never knew until about 5 years ago was that I had very very low Testosterone levels (about 5.2 when I restarted HRT) which is below normal for a male. Having transitioned twice , I realised early on especially with my wife (who was incredibly beautiful, talented (although when I met her full of self doubt), although with my encouragement she eventually became a very successful author, She was very sexual, but the thing I could never give her and which eventually led to the break-up was sexual penetration as basically I was impotent. Of course in my mind I always envied her. But with her and all the other women in my life we have always had great "Lesbian" sexual relationships.
Of course as I became older I realised that basically over the many years I had always envied these women. With some especially my wife I adored her - sort of put on a pedestal. So when she had an affair (for the sexual penetration) and I made the mistake with her blurting that I thought I was trangender, this destroyed the marriage instantly.
Interestingly the one relationship with a woman that did last a long time was with a woman that I never found sexually attractive with us forming a firm bond.
These days especially in the last 4 years since I re-started my transition (the first time I lived for nearly 3 years full time) where I have been on a full HRT dose and especially in the last 4-6 months my sexual attraction has changed to probably more like bi-sexual. I am still attracted to women, but increasingly find men very nice. Its probably because from my latest blood assays, it turns out that my body is no longer producing any Testosterone and my T levels are very small, with LH levels well below 1. My Oestrogen levels however are consistently between 450-610 depending on when during the day my blood tests done. Also I have just completed my 3rd month on Progesterone (Promethium) which is also having an effect. As my doctor explain, Judith you are very definitely Hormonally female.
Now my hero worship of women is over, although I do still notice when a women is nicely dressed or with attractive make-up, but I am starting to really be attracted to men.
I am probably too late to be married to a man, but a nice relationship with a loving man (or dominant woman) would be nice at my time in life.
Judith
Quote from: JulieAllana on February 08, 2018, 03:54:38 PM
I wonder how often trans women hook up with each other?
In older lesbian social circles in my region, that is about all that is considered acceptible by many. Some social groups here look down on and may ostracize a cisgender lesbian that associates or 'hooks up' with an out or non-passing transgender lesbian. I dislike this behavior, but engaging in this sort of thing is their choice.
They don't know what they are missing. ;)
I know several transwoman couples. Hey, they are happy, and love each other. I'm good with that.
I can relate to a lot of the other comments. Only looking back on it now does it seem very clear that is was more envy than attraction, at least in high school and college. The attraction aspect was and still is there, but now I'm able to distinguish between the two (most of the time, haha).
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Hello Paige
You initiated a really deep and interesting debate.
I am sorry your SO is opposed to your transition and does not want to be in a lesbian relationship. I hope you can find an amicable solution. Perhaps that would be transitioning and staying with your SO in an asexual friendship just like so many of us older ones do.
I wish you happiness.
Pamela
Quote from: pamelatransuk on February 10, 2018, 05:18:41 AM
Hello Paige
You initiated a really deep and interesting debate.
I am sorry your SO is opposed to your transition and does not want to be in a lesbian relationship. I hope you can find an amicable solution. Perhaps that would be transitioning and staying with your SO in an asexual friendship just like so many of us older ones do.
I wish you happiness.
Pamela
Thanks for the support Pamela. We've talked about an asexual relationship but I don't think she would really be interested in that. I'm starting to believe this is my destiny and I'm hoping we can figure something out but if we don't, we certainly tried.
Take care, glad you like the thread :)
Paige :)