Poll
Question:
(See my 'dreaded Locker room' post) Would you ask or wouldn't you ask if they knew I was transgender?
Option 1: ABSOLUTELY NOT!
votes: 28
Option 2: Sure. Why not?
votes: 5
Please see my "dreaded locker room" post (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,234584.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,234584.0.html)) for the exact situation.
Monday is the last class. It will not include any pool work so no more locker room drama in my mind. BUT I want to ask if they knew I was transgender.
I would word it this way:
I would like to ask a question. The possible answers are, "Yes", "I suspected" and "Nope" and the question is "did you know I'm transgender." I give it a 50:50:50 (?) chance.
The dive shop is LGBTQ friendly so that's not an issue.
I've felt very comfortable for the past few weeks and even my neighbor has commented that there has been a marked improvement in my appearance, disposition, etc... and I'm really curious if two people I had just met, spent about 10-12 hours with knew I was transgender. I'll probably never see the woman again. The instructor I probably will see as he works in the dive shop where I'll probably do future training and buy supplies.
Why would you ask them that? I would leave it alone and volunteer nothing.
I would treat them as I would any woman in there, and would expect the same.
Never would I consider saying anything, it's as bad as asking a woman if she is pregnant. What if your wrong? And beside ...how rude is that!!
Quote from: Jessica on February 23, 2018, 06:31:06 PM
I would treat them as I would any woman in there, and would expect the same.
Never would I consider saying anything, it's as bad as asking a woman if she is pregnant. What if your wrong? And beside ...how rude is that!!
I don't understand your response. I'm telling them I'm transgender. What I'm really looking for is "Do I pass well enough in close quarters?"
Quote from: Jessica on February 23, 2018, 06:31:06 PM
I would treat them as I would any woman in there, and would expect the same.
Never would I consider saying anything, it's as bad as asking a woman if she is pregnant. What if your wrong? And beside ...how rude is that!!
OMG, my dad did that once. One of my mom's friends was over that he hadn't seen in a while and she had gained a lot of weight in her stomach. He said " oh, and congratulations by the way". She said "about what"? He said " your pregnancy ". She gave him a scathing look and said she wasn't pregnant. He got so embarrassed! Even his ears turned red. I had to leave the room so I could laugh!
Based on the question in your poll, I'm inclined to agree with Julia and not ask anyone. I don't see what purpose it would serve other than to preempt something you have a feeling may come up later.
If no one in your vicinity says anything then, were it me, I would just leave it alone.
I am curious why you want to ask, though.
Let them wonder. What do you care? If they ask, talk about it. If not, move on.
Quote from: Sephirah on February 23, 2018, 06:47:24 PM
I am curious why you want to ask, though.
Some people will not like this answer but everyone at least will understand my answer. I want to know "DO I PASS?" If for no other reason than that. This is for ME not for them. A totally selfish question.
Quote from: krobinson103 on February 23, 2018, 06:50:36 PM
Let them wonder. What do you care? If they ask, talk about it. If not, move on.
That's my question - Do they wonder? Did they even consider it as a possibility?
Remember I'll probably never see these people again. Hey, you never know. Maybe they will become an ally. Consider this - I'm pretty normal doing something normal that they both thought was normal. I may be the first Trans person they've ever talked to. Let's put a nice face on what it is to be transgender. I'm just a person out living their life.
Denise, I have meet you and you pass.
If you are accepted then you are accepted.
Let's say you did pass. They didn't suspect a thing. And they are extreme transphobes and now feel they have been 'tricked'? Not pretty. Why even take the chance?
Quote from: KathyLauren on February 23, 2018, 07:26:21 PM
Let's say you did pass. They didn't suspect a thing. And they are extreme transphobes and now feel they have been 'tricked'? Not pretty. Why even take the chance?
Why take the chance? It's a public location with lots of people around so if they "blow up" it's on them with lots of witnesses. The male instructor is "G" friendly at least (He's talked about his gay roommate in fond terms) and the woman is uber friendly and it wouldn't surprise me if she were "L".
BUT all that aside - It's quite possible they have never had the opportunity to talk to or meet a transgender person. I know that's possible because I had been on hormones for 5 months before I talked to anyone I knew to be transgender. I wish I had the opportunity years ago.
It might help people "behind me" get accepted if the people I talk to better understand that we're not freaks as some would make us out to be.
I feel I'm an advocate for the Trans community. I will answer all but one question (and not it's not what's in my pants) and this is yet one more opportunity to spread "the gospel" of what it is to be transgender. I don't really care if people know. I feel being a "normal" person is a good face to put on the "T" community. It's possible the only thing the woman knows of the LGBTQ community is the Pride Parade and that's like comparing dirty dish water to fine soup.
I'm surprised that NO ONE (so far) would ask and how adamant you all are about it. Please keep going. I'm really interested in everyone's opinion.
I kind of feel like you would be putting them in an awkward position by asking; for example if someone asked me if I could tell they were trans (well, since I'm a trans person I probably already be questioning in my mind, but for this example I'm a cis woman [wow, it is better on this side of the fence, even the colors seem brighter somehow!!!], and someone asked me that direct question); if I sespected they were trans and they asked me, I would not want to hurt their feelings and tell them I wondered if they were trans, I would probably say I had no idea, and would have never guessed, and then I would feel awkward around them; and if I didn't suspect they were trans I would probably be annoyed, because they were asking such a question out of the blue, and then after that I would feel awkward around them (anyway that's the impression I get about how cis people would feel if a trans person asked them if they passed or not). And how would you feel if one or more of the people you asked told you you didn't pass?
My personal philosophy about my own ability to pass is that I assume some people can tell I'm trans, some people wonder, and some people may not know, but what is really important is that I am treated respectfully wherever I go, and everyone I encounter addresses me with female pronouns; so it's all good.
Asking one person if you pass is relatively uninformative. Like in school, some instructors are easy graders and others are hard graders. You may pass 99% of the time but if you bump into the hard grader, your confidence in yourself will be blown. It's far better to take a passive approach and see how people react to you. If your accepted by others, that's all that's important.
It might be less harmful to you if you ask "so, what do you think about transgender people?" before telling them anything. That way, if the response is less than what you want to hear, you can exit the scene.
I met gay folks that literally HATE trans people. The same goes with straight cis people. You never know when spilling the beans is going to blow up in your face.
My thought is that this is an emotional thing for you Denise. All the logic of 'you should not care and you should accept yourself,' I don't think you are doubting. I have had this same thought and have been tempted to ask someone. A new teacher at my school now knows I'm trans. I had a conversation with this young woman and she was quite excited about my 'situation.' So, I said, "Am I really that obvious?" She responded that she didn't know at first. I am gonna ask how she found out when I get a chance. Was she enthusiastic about knowing a trans person and told me what I wanted to hear? I don't know. I think I would have more confidence in her response if a third person asked her about if she clocked me. I understand the feeling of wanting to know how I am perceived. There is a price to pay if you are perceived as cis. That perception then vanishes. Of course, if it is a stranger, why not?
Moni
The real question, to me at least, is would it matter if they thought you were or not? And if they did or didn't, what then? Rule #208: Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer.
Quote from: Denise on February 23, 2018, 07:04:23 PM
Some people will not like this answer but everyone at least will understand my answer. I want to know "DO I PASS?" If for no other reason than that. This is for ME not for them. A totally selfish question.
That's my question - Do they wonder? Did they even consider it as a possibility?
Hi Denise,
I get it. I'm intensely curious about the same thing. As I try different things to feminize myself, there's no real way for me to know how well I'm doing without some kind of feedback.
I won't engage in the "you shouldn't care what people think," or the "passing isn't important" arguments. My personal goal is to pass, to get as close to ciswoman as I can, and to just live as the girl next door. If anybody reading this has different priorities, good on ya. The rest of this message is aimed toward anyone who shares my goals (and I think Denise's, too.)
When out in the real world:
If there's a negative reaction, you've been read and need to do more work.
If there's a positive reaction ("You're doing great, you look good"), you've been read, too, you're headed in the right direction, but still have work to do.
But if there's no reaction, you can't know how you're doing:
Did they read you and are just being nice?
Did they read you and just don't care?
Or did they just not know?
That last one is my personal goal, but there's no good way to know without outing yourself. And the consequences could go so many different directions, some of them double-plus-ungood.
So I restrain myself and continue to wonder...
- Stephanie
Quote from: Steph2.0 on February 24, 2018, 02:47:19 AM
Hi Denise,
I get it. I'm intensely curious about the same thing. As I try different things to feminize myself, there's no real way for me to know how well I'm doing without some kind of feedback.
I won't engage in the "you shouldn't care what people think," or the "passing isn't important" arguments. My personal goal is to pass, to get as close to ciswoman as I can, and to just live as the girl next door. If anybody reading this has different priorities, good on ya. The rest of this message is aimed toward anyone who shares my goals (and I think Denise's, too.)
When out in the real world:
If there's a negative reaction, you've been read and need to do more work.
If there's a positive reaction ("You're doing great, you look good"), you've been read, too, you're headed in the right direction, but still have work to do.
But if there's no reaction, you can't know how you're doing:
Did they read you and are just being nice?
Did they read you and just don't care?
Or did they just not know?
That last one is my personal goal, but there's no good way to know without outing yourself. And the consequences could go so many different directions, some of them double-plus-ungood.
So I restrain myself and continue to wonder...
- Stephanie
Thank you! You understand.
For those who think it's a risk, dangerous, etc... Consider this. I'm in a friendly city in a friendly dive shop with people who live in "boystown". There is no safer opportunity for me.
No consider that in a few very short months I'm going to be traveling to some very conservative areas of the US. If I can pass here in close proximity to people then I should be okay there for less personal contact.
If they knew, it would also give me the opportunity to work on what they picked up on.
Again, thanks for everyone's input and opinions. At the end of the day, we all make our own decisions, right or wrong.
I'll post Monday or Tuesday the results.
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If you want to know if you pass, lets the children tell you. They are brutally honest and aren't tainted by adult culture and expectations.
Quote from: Faith on February 24, 2018, 08:02:15 AM
If you want to know if you pass, lets the children tell you. They are brutally honest and aren't tainted by adult culture and expectations.
Faith - Great idea! Now to find some ankle biters.
Quote from: Lady Sarah on February 23, 2018, 08:27:18 PM
It might be less harmful to you if you ask "so, what do you think about transgender people?" before telling them anything. That way, if the response is less than what you want to hear, you can exit the scene.
Sarah - Thanks for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate your angle.
It is interesting the responses I've received here are all assuming I want to hear - YOU PASS. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I want is HONESTY. (see Faith's response!) I'm about to go to the middle of the ocean with a group of people I don't know to do one of the most dangerous things people do every day (scuba dive). I want to know if I can worry a little less than I normally would.
Sure, I want them to say "OMG, your what???" that would be cool. But "I knew right away" would be just as good. I know this is bad, but I spend time (less and less) wondering if the person across from me knows/suspects/has-no-idea. That will go away in time, but as you all know, time marches to its own drummer.
I hope I've explained WHY I want to know if I pass or not. It's not that I need or must pass to be happy.
Now, I wonder about the lesbian group I'm in if they know. This is a group I would NEVER ask as I'm trying to make lesbian friends and that would make things weird.
Thanks again
Denise, I understand why you want to ask the question because I felt the same way. I wanted to ask the question because I wanted to know if I really did pass. And you know what? I did ask. Here's what happened: I joined several social groups and eventually became good friends with a few women. We ended up meeting for lunch or dinner several times, just the two of us. We got to know each other, talking for hours about all kinds of things. We spent time together on outings to like the museum or whatever. And it was usually in a one-on-one friends situation, so that we could get to know each other better.
After a while, I asked each of them separately and privately if they knew I was trans. They were each very surprised and had no idea. They thought I was just another woman like them. It really boosted my confidence to know that I passed, even after many conversations and time spent with them. And you know what else? Our friendships became stronger because I shared a vulnerable part of myself. They accepted me completely and we're still good friends to this day.
But for your specific situation, I'm not so sure I would ask. For two reasons. First, you took a class with them. You didn't really spend a lot of time with them. If you really want to know if you truly and fully pass, you want to ask the question after you spend a lot of time socializing with them. Because in my opinion, the true test of passing is social, not physical.
Second reason, you were in a locker room with the other woman already. It might make her feel very uncomfortable and awkward if she knows that you were transgender and possibly pre-op and all this time she was in the locker room with you. A lot of cis people support trans people, but when it comes to the locker room issue, they take a harder stance. It's better if they don't know.
So yes, I encourage you to ask the question as it may help you as it did me, but try to set up another scenario where you can do it. Because of the reasons I explained above, I would not do it in this case.
I concur with echo7's opinion.
It is my opinion that if I were in that situation I would keep my mouth shut, smile and do my business and not respond and NOT ASK. Why give anyone, particularly the persons that want to make an issue out of transgenders, the satisfaction of an argument that can not be won... no way I could ever nor anyone else could ever change their mind and their bigoted thinking no matter how I would debate the issue with them. Silence is the loudest and most effective response.
Regarding echo7's answer, I pretty well agree with mostly everything she stated.
Quote from: Denise on February 23, 2018, 06:38:34 PM
I don't understand your response. I'm telling them I'm transgender. What I'm really looking for is "Do I pass well enough in close quarters?"
Hi Denis, I think I misunderstood your question. I read it as you asking someone else if they were trans. My apologies. I still myself would not ask someone else if I pass, unless the conversation was heading that way.
Jess
How did I miss this topic?! Denise I would wanna ask too. But probably not do it. Then if it comes up randomly I would be bothered a bit. Do you think that plays a role in you wanting to know what they think?
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I often wonder how well I pass but I just go by how people react to me. I wouldn't ever ask someone because if they didn't know and I ask then they and everyone around them will know. I get very uncomfortable around non family members who know I'm trans. I attended my dad's Christmas party for work and everyone he works with knows I'm trans and I expected it to be awful but actually it was fine. No one said anything about me being trans. My dad introduced me to this one lady as Julia because he thought everyone knew I was his daughter. I got a very stiff hello from her and she got this disgusted look on her face and I thought ok, here it comes. She said " god Jack, she's young enough to be your daughter!" He told her that's because I WAS his daughter. Lol. After that she was very friendly. Lol.
echo7, stated two good reasons for not asking. There is so little good that can come from asking and so much bad.
I wouldn't ask, I don't see the point in doing it.
I'd say go for it. But don't go in serious mode, ask them to sit and say you have something important to say as if you were telling them they are going to die. I'd do it more casually. Have a simple chat and let go something about your "male" past like "When I was a boy..." or "I went to an all-male college" if that applies to you, and see their reactions.
This is a question that only you can answer, and be truly satisfied; and that will come when you you truly accept yourself. If we need to ask someone if we pass then we are really saying please tell me I pass! And you are opening yourself up to a subjective opinion. And if you ask a few people, and they say you pass you feel good, and then you walk across the street, and a few people say no, then you will feel bad untill someone else tells you you pass; and the cycle continues...
When you are out and about observe how people interact; and if they treat you equally the same, then you probably blended in and passed. This especially works well at a checkout line; observe how the clerk interacts with other customers, and when it's your turn try to be objective and observe any differences in the way you are treated.
I had an opportunity after class to ask the instructor alone his response was matter of fact and conversational. Then he went on to a new subject like I asked about the weather.
So no harm no foul no disaster.
Thanks for everyone's input and interest.
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Quote from: Denise on February 27, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
I had an opportunity after class to ask the instructor alone his response was matter of fact and conversational. Then he went on to a new subject like I asked about the weather.
So no harm no foul no disaster.
Thanks for everyone's input and interest.
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I knew that would be the case! That's why I said I would wanna ask too in my last reply lol
I have to disagree with some others. If you're insecure you're insecure no matter what. Now on the other hand, if you don't give a flying you know what then you just don't... especially, well specifically, with strangers!
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I don't think the public in general is even sure what a Trans is.
Interesting development.....
In order to get certified you need to make 4 "open water dives." That means getting into a lake or ocean or some other body of water outside that's 60 feet deep (or so). I was going to go to Las Vegas but the water temp there is in the low 50s then Phoenix and it wasn't much better. So I decided I would go visit my parents in Florida (yes they know and accept me) and do my 4 open water dives in the ocean.
I was conversing with the other student and she decided that diving in the converted quarry in northern Illinois in May was not sounding like fun. (It's very cold) So she's going to join me in Florida and we're going to buddy up and do the dives together. She's going to stay with some friends in Sarasota.
This could be fun. We're getting together next weekend for dinner. You never know.
I think its so cool, your taking scuba diving. I hope you maybe able to pave the way towards instructorship in scuba diving(ie.stealth of course for you) and include tg's who may want to be able to scuba dive, but its cool if its for you. It was one of my hobbies I wanted to do pre hrt, as well as martial arts(GJJ/Gracie Jiu Jitsu/Combatives), once your on hrt, things change dramatically.
I wish you much success Denise and apologize if I seemed a naysayer in my opinion. Trailblaze it girl! :)
Quote from: Denise on March 03, 2018, 12:26:41 AM
Interesting development.....
In order to get certified you need to make 4 "open water dives." That means getting into a lake or ocean or some other body of water outside that's 60 feet deep (or so). I was going to go to Las Vegas but the water temp there is in the low 50s then Phoenix and it wasn't much better. So I decided I would go visit my parents in Florida (yes they know and accept me) and do my 4 open water dives in the ocean.
I was conversing with the other student and she decided that diving in the converted quarry in northern Illinois in May was not sounding like fun. (It's very cold) So she's going to join me in Florida and we're going to buddy up and do the dives together. She's going to stay with some friends in Sarasota.
This could be fun. We're getting together next weekend for dinner. You never know.
Denise:
YES, the warmer waters in Florida sound much better than the old quarry in Illinois!!!
I have never thought about Scuba Diving but I have done a lot of Snorkeling... especially in the much warmer waters of Hawaii, the Caribbean and just last November, the Great Barrier Reef in Australia (the warmest water)... it was wonderful..
On the boat in Australia there were several Scuba Divers and one of them wanted me to take private lessons from him when we got off of the boat. Hmmm, "private lessons" ... LOL
Aspiringperson
Quote from: Aspiringperson on March 03, 2018, 09:33:48 AM
Denise:
YES, the warmer waters in Florida sound much better than the old quarry in Illinois!!!
I have never thought about Scuba Diving but I have done a lot of Snorkeling... especially in the much warmer waters of Hawaii, the Caribbean and just last November, the Great Barrier Reef in Australia (the warmest water)... it was wonderful..
On the boat in Australia there were several Scuba Divers and one of them wanted me to take private lessons from him when we got off of the boat. Hmmm, "private lessons" ... LOL
Aspiringperson
I just booked a week long dive trip to Hawaii for labor day week. I can't wait.
I assume you didn't get the (cough cough) "private lessons". (I ask with a smile on my face.
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Quote from: Denise on March 03, 2018, 10:04:14 AM
I just booked a week long dive trip to Hawaii for labor day week. I can't wait.
I assume you didn't get the (cough cough) "private lessons". (I ask with a smile on my face.
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No, I did not take him up on the private lessons.... I think that looking back about that ... I regret it now.
The good thing about diving and snorkeling with wet-suits and with the sting-suits I had in Australia ... they are tight fitting and show off the curves, now that I have curves that is a good thing.
Quote from: Aspiringperson on March 03, 2018, 10:15:06 AM
No, I did not take him up on the private lessons.... I think that looking back about that ... I regret it now.
The good thing about diving and snorkeling with wet-suits and with the sting-suits I had in Australia ... they are tight fitting and show off the curves, now that I have curves that is a good thing.
Like this? I hear ya sister!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/d646daf8379613a425d52ca5b2e9baa8.jpg)
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Quote from: Denise on March 03, 2018, 11:23:03 AM
Like this? I hear ya sister!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/d646daf8379613a425d52ca5b2e9baa8.jpg)
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@ Denise:
EXACTLY !!! Those suits show just about all... maybe that's why I was offered "private lessons" >:-)
In your case it is good that the suits show the curves, you look great. Thanks for sharing your wet-suit photo.
Aspiringperson
Wow, the Phantom or Girl Who Walks!!!!!!