Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So...

Yeah Jack Sparrow - I reckon he's either Androgyne or FTM.

FTM tend to be cool guys, and Jack is one of them.
but
His slightly off-balance view on things, and ability to see many sides of a situation and work them through seems to be something androgynes often do.

But mainly, pure gut instinct.  ;D

I don't think he's TG... never got that impression.

Who is Jack Sparrow??  ???

The eyeliner and braids was just his go at fuzzing the gender binary a bit (a phrase I believe I have never typed). You see how tidy most of the FTM minds around here are, that's a loose ended androgyne brain that.

Quote from: Kiera on December 20, 2007, 06:59:09 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 20, 2007, 06:39:27 PMBut mainly, pure gut instinct.  ;D

LOL! Nice try Pica, no cigar! I was thinking more in terms of especially her mannerisms, her eyeliner, braids, which, as I only musta implied, is definitely latent MtF!

And did "He" ever kiss Elizabeth? "I'm sorry, but you and I would have never worked out"

:icon_bunch:

Posted on: December 20, 2007, 06:51:55 PM

---

And every other woman in the saga who "slapped" him across the face . . .

. . . was that for being impertinent, or was it impotent?

Once again Kiera thinks of the unthinkable.

That face slapping is a keen observation.  What if he always does something to make them slap his face because he needs to prevent himself from being allowed beyond a certain point in the romancing.  Like he can't allow anyone to see his genitals.

I haven't seen all of the movies so if he does show his genitals to people at some point, I would be wrong.

Quote from: Rebis on December 20, 2007, 09:24:44 PM

Quote from: Kiera on December 20, 2007, 06:59:09 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 20, 2007, 06:39:27 PMBut mainly, pure gut instinct.  ;D

LOL! Nice try Pica, no cigar! I was thinking more in terms of especially her mannerisms, her eyeliner, braids, which, as I only musta implied, is definitely latent MtF!

And did "He" ever kiss Elizabeth? "I'm sorry, but you and I would have never worked out"

:icon_bunch:

Posted on: December 20, 2007, 06:51:55 PM

---

And every other woman in the saga who "slapped" him across the face . . .

. . . was that for being impertinent, or was it impotent?

Once again Kiera thinks of the unthinkable.

That face slapping is a keen observation.  What if he always does something to make them slap his face because he needs to prevent himself from being allowed beyond a certain point in the romancing.  Like he can't allow anyone to see his genitals.

I haven't seen all of the movies so if he does show his genitals to people at some point, I would be wrong.

Since its a Disney trademark, Reeb, I really don't think you're going to be "proven" wrong!! *smile*

Jack's a very self-assured 18th-century lower-class but upwardly mobile metrosexual. Make-up was actually quite common among the aristocrats when Jack lived. He's expressing his ability to raise his social status. Just another metrosexual like David Beckham.

The proof? Why Keira Knightley of course!

No. Character was gender variant (for modern times and the fictional world he was placed in) but not T.

I thought the running joke was that J. Depp modeled the character on Keith Richards of the Stones.

That wasn't a joke.  It's true.

But Johnny is so much better looking than Kieth Richards.

There needs to be a choice on the poll for those of us who live in a cave and have no clue who Jack Sparrow is.  ;)

y2g

  I thought even cave-people knew Captain Jack Sparrow  :o . I mean he is sometimes the Captain of the Black Pearl (some political stuff that I don't fully understand), and he isn't bad looking to boot.
  I'm going to go with Pica on this one, He is FtM AND metrosexual.  :laugh: 


P.S. *whispers* Jack Sparrow is a character on the movie series Pirates of the Caribbean played by Johnny Depp.

Quote from: Ayana on December 21, 2007, 12:12:22 PM
P.S. *whispers* Jack Sparrow is a character on the movie series Pirates of the Caribbean played by Johnny Depp.

Oh! I had no clue. I am not a big fan of fictional films. Documentaries are much more interesting in my opinion.

I like docs too, but PotC (just the first one really) is the kind of thing that Hollywood does do very well.  All star cast, great F/X, good fun.  Its fluff.  But its pretty good fluff.

I rule my life by fictional stuff.       

Quote from: Ayana on December 21, 2007, 12:12:22 PM
P.S. *whispers* Jack Sparrow is a character on the movie series Pirates of the Caribbean played by Johnny Depp.

<whispers> thanks

At least I've heard of that movie  :) although haven't seen it yet. Now that I know there's possibly trans character, I'll put it in my netflix queue.

y2g

QuoteAt least I've heard of that movie   although haven't seen it yet. Now that I know there's possibly trans character, I'll put it in my netflix queue.

I don't think the writers meant for him to be trans, but yeah, he is a little 'odd'.  It is a very entertaining movie irregardless.

Genderly & sexually ambiguous.

What if Pica's premise is all wrong?

What if the qustion should not be

QuoteIs Jack Sparrow one of Us?

but rather, is Jack Sparrow several of us?

Love Pirates of the Caribbean. But I never got that impression of Jack Sparrow. Sure he wore eye makeup and had long hair but I cant really think of anything else.

i think that's for jack sparrow and jack sparrow alone to know.

Don't ask.  Don't tell.

No, it's just eyeliner and mascara.

I still want him to do me though...he's so hot!

Quote from: tekla on December 21, 2007, 09:19:25 AM
I thought the running joke was that J. Depp modeled the character on Keith Richards of the Stones.

Depp did admit that he modeled Jack Sparrow's physical mannerisms after those of Keith Richards. The swaying and the hand-gestures which are both jerky and liquid. I have not observed Keith Richards enough to know if it was an accurate imitation. I believed, on seeing the original film, that Depp was portraying Sparrow as suffering from the kind of motor-control anomalies that occur with neurosyphilis, which would have been historically accurate. Everybody in the early eighteenth century had syphilis.

Yeah, it's true, about men wearing makeup then. And holding hands and kissing each other without it being a sexual thing, precisely. Fruity pirate garb is indeed a poor man's version of the 'metrosexual' of the day, who would have been called 'macaroni' and worn make-up, mixed in with naval costumery.

To further muddy things, Depp read a book called Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition (by Barry Burg) and liked it. Knock a couple of points off Depp, because I thought it was dumb. In any case, historian Burg attempts ceaselessly to convince us, with thin and often silly evidence, that all early eighteenth century anglo-american pirates were gay as christmas trees. Anyway, Depp said that the book was very interesting and that he would henceforth play Jack Sparrow 'more gay.' And the world said, "More gay?"

Probably Johnny Depp is interested in gender ambiguity. He could play any part he wanted, but very often chooses to play characters who are sexually and gender ambiguous in one way or another.

does that say something about johnny i wonder? Do i care i also wonder?

To begin with, I find J. Depp as good as any actor I've ever watched.  He has an amazing array of roles that he has done so far.

But (and I don't do this often, it seems like tales out of school or something) I spend a few days last year constructing a ramp from the stage (20 feet high) to the dressing area for the Stones last tour in SF.  It had a couple of switchbacks, and we padded and taped some of the edges and corners on them, as a precaution.  As we were finishing one of the Stones management people (and the Stones have more management than General Motors or Citibank, largely because they make about the same amount of money) comes by and inspects the work.

"Nah, it needs more, see Keith is going to come down (at this point he starts to do this sort of half stumble / half walk / half swagger down the ramp bumping into places), and you need to pad it for him."  So we did.  Hey, we were in OT anyway, another hour easy.  Fast Forward to two days later, when I was running a truss spot that was right above the ramp I had built.  And I look down and watch Keith walk down that ramp just like Mister Manager said he would, hitting every point this guy hit.  Amazing.

And pirates (not the romantic notion of today, but the true terrorists of yesterday) often wore women's clothes, they wore whatever they could plunder.  Name of the game there.  Nothing sexual to it.  Women were raped and tossed overboard, as traveling with a woman on a ship was considered unlucky.

Quote from: tekla on December 27, 2007, 08:54:20 PM
And pirates (not the romantic notion of today, but the true terrorists of yesterday) often wore women's clothes, they wore whatever they could plunder.  Name of the game there.  Nothing sexual to it.  Women were raped and tossed overboard, as traveling with a woman on a ship was considered unlucky.

Oh, actually there is a fair amount of good historical documentation showing early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates having opportunities to rape women and not doing so. My major objection to Barry Burg's Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition is that he claims this as evidence that they were gay.

There is also quite a lot of historical evidence of female-bodied sailors dressed as men, throughout the 'Age of Sail.' Very often these stories end somewhat boringly, with the FTM sailor being well-known to be female among the ship's company, and everybody just politely pretending not to notice.

It was also common practice for certain members of the crew to bring their wives along. Said wives were respected and useful crewmembers. What was 'unlucky' was bringing along prostitutes, 'girlfriends' or other females of questionable sexual loyalties, as this tended to cause men to fight. Which was, by the way, forbidden on early eighteenth century anglo-american pirate ships -- their articles consistantly demand that if crewmembers have a quarrel and want to settle it with violence they've got to wait 'til the ship reaches land and duel on shore.

very democratic lot on the whole, in those conditions it was needed. Isn't that another bit of evidence in the book, he does try to make it sound like a camp floating civil paradise away from the tyranny of land.

Indeed, they did 'invent' democracy. Pirate captains of that period had extremely limited powers, and basically only had decision-making powers when the ship was attacking something or fleeing, and he did not recieve special rights like captains of merchant or naval ships, who got private rooms and special food. Aside from the emergency combat/flee situations, everything was decided by a vote. Though it seems that sometimes the voting had a funny rule attached to it, that you needed to be drunk or at least inclined to be if supplies to do so had been at hand.

The egalitarian nature of 'pirate culture' is pretty well documented, those guys wrote up quite detailed articles that essentially outlined a system of government for the ship, all more or less the same during that hey-day period of piracy, and very much directed at preventing tyrannical rule aboard the ship.

Sort of a civil paradise, except the population has to steal everything it needs and is at war with approximately everybody else in the world.

History books about pirates by Marcus Redicker are a lot of fun, and very well researched.

Except for a few "hell's angels" type pirates, most operated under what is quaintly known as a "Letter of Marque" making them state-supported, economic terrorists.

AND.... "eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates" is not exactly the majority of pirates, its was not called "The Spanish Main" because there were so many English types hanging out there. (we just don't get it, they have been here in the Caribbean for years, but they never tan)  Most pirates were French or Spanish.  (Hint, because the French and Spain were at war, more or less - but mostly more - during that time.)  Most of the English were smugglers, violating British Colonial Trading Policies, not outright pirates.  Though their violation of trade laws rendered them unto pirates when caught on the high seas (think: hung by the neck until dead) that was not what they were really doing.

And they might have 'invented democracy' had those darn Greeks not beat them to it a few centuries before.

Those aren't pirates, they're privateers.

The end of the War of Spanish Succession in 1713 caused a staggering drop in sailor's wages and a couple of years later an explosion of piracy in the Atlantic. Essentially, poor and infrequent and often stolen pay coupled with deadly working conditions and a legal system that allowed even merchant captains to do things like beat you to death with a dried elephant's penis that he calls 'the Persuader' caused a bunch of workers to murder the management and take over the factory. Ship, rather. There was a decade or so where there were a lot of these ships going about where the crew had disposed of the ship's owner's representatives and made the vessel their own, complete with its own interesting system of psuedo-government, and were using it to attack other ships and steal stuff out of them, and recruit new pirates. It's this specific little period that our whatchocallit, cultural-image-thingie of 'pirates' is recollecting.

True enough that a lot of the historical 'pirates' you can name were from outside that period, and were privateers, or were privateers who didn't stop when their letters were withdrawn and thus became illegal and pirates.

-------------

Uh, the above'd make more sense but you edited your post. And sure, early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates cannot be the majority of pirates, what with all the rest of the history of trade by sea. They're just the pirates we're talking about, movie pirates are a fun romaticized depiction of early eighteenth-century anglo-american pirates.

Outside of Hogan's Heroes, is there say, a "fun romaticized depiction of early" Nazis?  Didn't think so.

I hate romantic versions of anything.  Mob guy are not cute movie types or Soprano types.  They are cold blooded killers.  Nazis are nazis, pirates are pirates.  Not much cute about either one in real life.

However... "Those aren't pirates, they're privateers."

Touché, but that's a distinction that few of us really understand.  After all, we do label, Sir Francis Drake as a pirate, when in fact, he was a privateer.

Quote from: tekla on December 28, 2007, 12:27:21 AM
Outside of Hogan's Heroes, is there say, a "fun romaticized depiction of early" Nazis?  Didn't think so.

Not yet, anyway -- the Nazis are still pretty recent, and have got a rather extreme reputation (and deservedly so). Their time will come, though: there is already a rather nasty fringe that romanticises them, and in a couple of centuries it won't be illegal to show swastikas in Germany. Anyway, the point is that it's hard to think of a group which was so atrocious that it did not eventually get romanticised.

Quote
However... "Those aren't pirates, they're privateers."

Touché, but that's a distinction that few of us really understand.  After all, we do label, Sir Francis Drake as a pirate, when in fact, he was a privateer.

Originally, there was not too much of a distinction: the first letters of marque were pretty much along the lines of "Oh, the French stole your ship? Please gather some men and recover your losses from them. Love and kisses, King Edward".

However, long before Sir Francis the kings started using letters of marque also as a way to raise extra fighting ships, somewhat as a naval analogue to modern-day Blackwater. Drake himself, while mostly on the profit-oriented side of privateering, was a vice admiral during the Grand Armada incident, commanding the English fleet (along with vice admiral Sir John Hawkins and under Baron Howard of Effingham, who as Lord High Admiral laid out the overall strategy but stayed ashore). Not that these naval ranks mean exactly what they do nowadays, of course.

  Nfr

Say.  Where did I leave my dried elephant penis?   :laugh:

If you see it, please return it. Oh.  And DON'T get it wet.

Ummm, Reeb. I was sure you wouldn't miss it. I have sent it by pm. Sorry, it was just laying there and I was curious. *blush*

Nichole

Quote from: Rebis on December 28, 2007, 08:03:29 AM
Say.  Where did I leave my dried elephant penis?   :laugh:

If you see it, please return it. Oh.  And DON'T get it wet.

cos no one wants a wet elephant penis

Yuck, Pica!!! It WASN'T WET!!!! *terribly blushing now* And still isn't!!!

Stop bickering you two and get me my penis back.

I have a crew to whip.

 :D spit me drink :D

Here. But you're gonna have to get it off the elephant!!! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_FrLNt1Vfo

Whoever filmed that was giggling.

Yes, possibly a ship's captain hunting for a disciplinary instrument? LOL

Quote from: Nichole W. on December 28, 2007, 12:14:01 PM
Here. But you're gonna have to get it off the elephant!!! LOL

But the penis used to be dried, and that elephant had clearly had a couple of drinks too many. Anyone seen rum rations lately?

  Nfr

yuk

Here I was always fond of the Captain's Daughter.

Jack Sparrow likes rum!
I like Rum!

ARRR!

Methinks he is definitely one of us!

Quote from: Laura91 on December 20, 2007, 07:10:18 PM
Who is Jack Sparrow??  ???

Me, luv!  ;)

Okay, not really. Jack Sparrow is a Character played by Johnny Depp in the movie Pirates of the Caribbean.

--Natalie :)


PS  I know some guys what where guyliner, I think it's hot. I used to wear it... oh, wait a sec, I'm m2f, so, er, I don't really count. But I used to wear eyeliner and lots of make up before transitioning, and pretty much every day, eyeliner at least for sure. I looked pretty androgynous for a long time before I went full-time as my wonderfly woman true self. It's ironic now that I don't wear as much make up now then I did back then. And now, I actually have some color in my dark wardrobe... which is different, too.

I think Jack's body language is decidedly ambiguous. You could say foppish, but it definitely crosses the gender line IMHO.

Johnny D is a lot more creative than your average Hollywood blockbuster star. Not many points of resembalnce with, say, Sylverster Stallone

I always thought he was a pretty ambiguous character in terms of gender, which is one reason why I like his char so much, he's not a cookie cutter type. I love Jack Sparrow as a character. Jack is wacky, spontaneous, witty, mysterious, etc, not to mention very attractive.

J. Depps characters Edward Scissorhands, Ichabod Crane, Willy Wonka and Jack Sparrow were all somewhat ambiguous in the gender category. I'm not sure if he does actually wish to play his roles like this or not, but there's no question that he is a very gifted actor.

Also when I found out what androgyne meant, he was one of the first (famous) people I thought of.

Off-topic- One of his children is named Jack :D (Edit- But the name, and his daughter's name Lily might/probably be from 1985 film Legend, but, I don't know.)

Hi Natalie. I use to do the same when I started full time considering I was a skinny runt and was not on hormones yet. I use to trowel the Cover Girl make up on my face to hide the 5 o'clock shadow. It was awful, what a nightmare. The good thing is that after Wing Walker moved in with me I was already a couple of years on the hormones and then she put a little bit of meet on my bones, she's a good cook. Really. I prefer she cooks and I just goof off on the Internet. Now I look like a well proportioned pregnant Hobbit.

Cindy

He is FTM for sure! ;D I love his style! *jealous*

Pregnant Hobbit alert!

Hi Rebis, you want a pet? Lots of fur two little beedy eyes and a pink snout. No that's my whatsisit who lives under the rock, "blink, blink."

Cindy

Sorry, Cindy.  I can't do pets.  I have a hard enough time handling my SO.  :laugh:

Well if you are ever in need of a pet I have a hmmmm let me see. Ya I have a dragon complete with the flame, saves on heating during the winter. I also have  a Pterodactyl, And of course can't forget Gertrude she lives in a close by gulch and she chases wingbats all day. Let's see, oh yes can't forget my ghost, but she's mine, her name is Casandra. And oh yes all those pesky little fairies constantly flying around the apartment dive bombing us.

A but my friend, I still love you  ;D

Cindy