Is it me or are more people criticising trans people on the internet in recent years?
I'm guessing politics is at the root of anything like that.
They feel they can be rude and say any bigoted or racist thing they want now without consequence because they are following the example of their (unnamed) national leader. Additionally, worldwide there is a resurgence of the far right wing reactionaries.
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Not seeing it, in fact, it seems to me that acceptance is growing.
Hugs, Devlyn
Haven't seen more of it IRL.
Quote from: Priya on March 03, 2018, 05:45:07 PM
Is it me or are more people criticising trans people on the internet in recent years?
Were you reading lots of stuff having to do with trans people 4 years ago? It may just be perception due to it being in the news more.
In practice I have not been treated any differently. I feel as though we lost support and in many ways we have. There has been a wave of different political officials and anti trans laws are being enacted.
If you are seeing that, I suspect it may be due to the current political situation in the U.S. Bigotry, in general, seems to be rising over the past year or so and not just in the U.S.
Quote from: AnneK on March 03, 2018, 08:56:47 PM
If you are seeing that, I suspect it may be due to the current political situation in the U.S. Bigotry, in general, seems to be rising over the past year or so and not just in the U.S.
I totally agree with you and I think it started January 20, 2017 When LQBTQI was take of the white house website.
Bigotry is rising in general.
The far left refuses to accept free speech and opinions unless it's speech and opinions that they like, the far right just sits in its corner feeling more and more justified at hating the "liberals" for the former.
Both are feeding off each other while the actual liberals and those in the center are stuck rolling their eyes knowing where all this historically leads.
QuoteThe far left refuses to accept free speech and opinions unless it's speech and opinions that they like, the far right just sits in its corner feeling more and more justified at hating the "liberals" for the former.
Perhaps you should read up on what happened in Charlottesville VA last year, where a woman was killed by a white supremast. Tell me again it's about free speech. Also, I just watched a movie tonight "Denial", about how David Irving, a holocaust denier sued an author who pointed out how he was fabricating nonsense about the holocaust. Watch that and tell us again about how the left refuses to accept free speech.
Are you aware of who the far left is? That is people like Antifa. People who tend to wear masks to hide their identities while rioting, being violent, setting fire to things and attempting to disrupt free speech events. Yes, free speech events. Google Antifa and free speech events. Antifa do not like free speech:
(https://i.imgur.com/L4f4WqK.jpg)
I'm well aware of what occurred in Charlottesville. The far right had an organized (legal) gathering there, Antifa and others showed up to (legally) protest that event, the police mismanaged the crowd separation during the evening leading to the two meeting when they shouldn't have. The following day one man in a car drove into a crowd of protestors causing death and injury. That man has been identified as a far right individual. You might also like to know Antifa - the far leftists - were being violent there as well. Or is this man waving a makeshift flamethrower at people with flags just another well-meaning "anti-fascist"?
(https://i.imgur.com/OYE64Wr.jpg)
Both sides have been acting despicably.
Holocaust denial? If you have free speech then you have the right to believe (or deny) whatever you want. That's what freedom is. If someone else wrote a book about this person claiming something about him that sounds like a libel case waiting to happen. But don't worry - we don't have free speech here in the UK any longer, so David Irving isn't likely to be publishing anything like it in future if someone here can claim he offended them.
Quote from: Kylo on March 03, 2018, 09:10:40 PM
Bigotry is rising in general.
The far left refuses to accept free speech and opinions unless it's speech and opinions that they like, the far right just sits in its corner feeling more and more justified at hating the "liberals" for the former.
Both are feeding off each other while the actual liberals and those in the center are stuck rolling their eyes knowing where all this historically leads.
I don't think free speech is the problem. The part of the problem is the hate filled words that people consider free speech which is there right you can only poke a bear so many times before the bear attacked back.
I do.
Why?
Because I've noticed that if people don't have the release valve of speech, they feel persecuted and justified in being violent. And I prefer speech over violence. Anyone with sense ought to prefer speech to violence.
When we have people on the left claiming "free speech IS violence" or that people should be jailed for not using our pronouns, where does that eventually lead? Do you reckon it leads to people getting along better? More love, less hate?
Here's a summation of the problem:
(https://i.imgur.com/bWA8MTx.jpg)
We won't end hate by silencing people. We won't get respect from disrespectful people by persecuting them. They will feel justified in their bigotry. Eventually they will feel like victims, and a when a person feels enough of a victim, he or she can feel justified in lashing out. Some of the greatest crimes against humanity were perpetrated by people who perceived themselves as victims. This applies to both the far left AND the far right. BOTH at this point in time are now perceiving themselves as victims of bigotry and persecution. A universal rule of thumb when dealing with humans and their psychology is that if you try to get something - respect, love, acceptance - by force, you will get nothing but force in return. The same is happening here.
And currently it's the "tolerant left" who have more means to silence the far right. They have the means to disrupt free speech events, they have the backing of the press when they want to defame, denounce or smear someone as far right, they have the backing of established anti-discrimination laws in many cases. Not all, but many. They are in the better position right now. However the more they refuse to allow their ideological opponents an outlet, the more are drawn to the far right. The allure of the forbidden and the taboo, for one thing. For another, people who are fed up of being called bigots even when they're not. People who are aware of the sudden increasing pressure on white people to feel guilty for things their great-great-grandfathers did. All reasons I've heard lately for why people feel pushed away from the left.
Being closer to the left myself I find it self-defeating to create more of this, and I find it especially self-defeating to try to force acceptance of people like me on people in the far right. They will never accept me by force. Only by meeting them on a level playing field and giving them their say can you even hope for it. And you may not get it. But you are assured to get nothing but abject hatred if you make them victims of your persecution.
This seems to be beyond many people on the left these days, and I'm increasingly beginning to think it's because actual liberalism, true classical liberalism, has gone out the window among us. A real liberal accepts there is a point of view he may not like, he may not want to hear, but he ought to defend to the death someone's right to have it. For simple reason that today's tolerance may be tomorrow's tyrant. And without your free speech, you have NO way of protecting yourself from tomorrow's tyrant without resorting to violence. SO DON'T THROW IT AWAY. The freedom to express ideas and the constant expression of wholesome ideas is the only steadfast defense against Nazism and real bigotry. Unless of course we want a repeat of some of the worst parts of the last century. The reason the bigotry is rising - on both sides - has a lot to do with the fact we are not doing this and we are not respecting the right of others to have their views. We are all too ready to scream in their faces, shut them down, disrupt and persecute.
Well if we keep on doing it we'll get what's coming to us. A state without freedom. And the next day who knows. Bloodshed not a distant possibility.
I know this is a mistake to get involved in this conversation. The thing is, the far left is not being incorporated into the mainstream. The far right is in the US right now. There is no equivalency.
The CDC can't even mention the word transgender on orders from the present executive branch.
Not saying the mainstream is far left, but it is of the left. The establishment appears to be more liberal than not. Certainly not pro-Trump if your news outlets are anything to go by.
Quote from: Kylo on March 03, 2018, 10:30:32 PM
Not saying the mainstream is far left, but it is of the left.
Guess that is a matter of perspective. :)
QuoteThe establishment appears to be more liberal than not. Certainly not pro-Trump if your news outlets are anything to go by.
Really??
Who was it that tried to keep trans out of the military?
Who was it that created a law that legalizes bigotry against trans?
Who was it that cut Medicaid to millions, while handing out billions in tax cuts for the wealthy?
Who was it that's clearly bigoted against Muslims, Puerto Ricans & Mexicans?
Who is it that denies science and climate change?
Who created the banned word list for CDC?
Whenever I look at US outlets, they're endlessly complaining about anything and everything Trump, from NK to his hair to his kids. All kinds of outlets from Vice to TNYT to CNN to Metro to The Guardian, MSNBC, NBC, Buzzfeed, Huffpost, Washington Post, the Economist, Politico, and the BBC all appear to have leftist bias on most issues. On the other end of the scale sites like Breitbart / Drudge are regarded as dens of bigotry and deserving of being shut down. About the only one left with any remote 'cred' on the right of center appears to be Fox.
Yes, I'd say there's a liberal bias in the mainstream today for the most part.
That's not even mentioning that Google and YouTube have begun censoring independent commentators on their platforms who don't have leftist bias, or making it increasingly difficult for them to output content without strikes. And I'm not even talking about people on the far right. They've been demonetizing leftists and centrists who dare discuss "controversial issues" for more than a year now, because advertising companies have a leftist bias and don't want their ads shown on these channels. They've now stepped up the censorship against many of those for real as well.
Quote from: AnneK on March 03, 2018, 10:39:53 PM
Really??
Yes, really. Trump himself is not the establishment. He wasn't supposed to win, by the looks of things, but did on a technicality. By the establishment I refer to the machinery that runs/underpins government, including elements of the government itself, and I'm referring to academia, and the press, and globalists, most of which appear to loathe him with a passion. If he was their golden boy, he wouldn't be having any optics issues. As it happens they seethe every time the man's terrible hair so much as blows in the wind.
Big difference between free speech & offending someone. On the whole I can't say transphobia is any worse or better over here (UK). There is a lot more racism/xenophobia however
I would say there are more people speaking negatively about trans people in the media, but I've been on a road trip for the last month, which included two weeks spending time in cities in the deep south. I never had any problems. People were either friendly, or minding their own business. I didn't spend a whole lot of time in rural areas, but the few times I did make stops I was treated well.
QuoteYes, really. Trump himself is not the establishment.
And who is it who's backing him? Take a look at the shady deals that seem to be going on around him. Look at VP Pence, who used to be Indiana governor. You think he supports us? Look at all the recent stuff about gun control, with Georgia blocking a fuel tax cut for Delta Airlines, simply because they no longer give NRA members a discount? It that left wing?
My take is a generalization and then I'm out of this topic.
Extreme left == bad
Extreme right == bad
Extreme anything == bad
When you go extreme views on anything you lose objectivity for things (anything) as a whole.
my opinion on the actual topical question based on my personal experiences:
vocal anti-trans is high. human nature is that what you disagree with gets the loudest voice. If people were as loud with compliments and agreements as they are about disagreeing or complaining I believe the perception would change.
I have run into avoidance but not hatred. The avoidance seems to be based on discomfort, not hate, they just don't know how to act. Overall people are more friendly with me now then ever. People as a whole are accepting, individuals stand out when in opposition.
Why do people seem more transphobic than 4 years ago?
Because that is what is being spouted the loudest right now. Media is ratings and entertainment, they will go with what's most dramatic. Don't let the vocal few taint your perception.
yes, I know, there are areas very anti-trans, really anti-anything that upsets their simple b/w belief system. Your local area experience is likely different than mine. Like I said, this is a generalization from my experiences and that forms my opinion.
Quote from: Kylo on March 03, 2018, 10:52:50 PM
Whenever I look at US outlets, they're endlessly complaining about anything and everything Trump, from NK to his hair to his kids. All kinds of outlets from Vice to TNYT to CNN to Metro to The Guardian, MSNBC, NBC, Buzzfeed, Huffpost, Washington Post, the Economist, Politico, and the BBC all appear to have leftist bias on most issues. On the other end of the scale sites like Breitbart / Drudge are regarded as dens of bigotry and deserving of being shut down. About the only one left with any remote 'cred' on the right of center appears to be Fox.
Yes, I'd say there's a liberal bias in the mainstream today for the most part.
That's not even mentioning that Google and YouTube have begun censoring independent commentators on their platforms who don't have leftist bias, or making it increasingly difficult for them to output content without strikes. And I'm not even talking about people on the far right. They've been demonetizing leftists and centrists who dare discuss "controversial issues" for more than a year now, because advertising companies have a leftist bias and don't want their ads shown on these channels. They've now stepped up the censorship against many of those for real as well.
Yes, really. Trump himself is not the establishment. He wasn't supposed to win, by the looks of things, but did on a technicality. By the establishment I refer to the machinery that runs/underpins government, including elements of the government itself, and I'm referring to academia, and the press, and globalists, most of which appear to loathe him with a passion. If he was their golden boy, he wouldn't be having any optics issues. As it happens they seethe every time the man's terrible hair so much as blows in the wind.
I could sit here and point out how I know a very different reality from what you stated here. What good would it do? My blood pressure goes up, maybe you get upset with me. It really doesn't address the original post. The fact is trans people are under attack by the waste majority of 'right' sided politicians in my country. They either are actively working against us or are silently standing by while their colleagues work their hate or play games with our lives for reelection purposes. The 'liberal' media said absolutely nothing about the anti LGBTQI organization that this Billy Graham created who was lying in state at our Capitol recently. It is neither liberal nor conservative to call someone out when they act like a jerk. No disrespect to you personally Kylo.
Quote from: big kim on March 04, 2018, 02:25:15 AM
Big difference between free speech & offending someone. On the whole I can't say transphobia is any worse or better over here (UK). There is a lot more racism/xenophobia however
Look at it this way. Anything - anything at all that you or I might say has the potential to offend
somebody, somewhere. I could say, for the sake of argument, that your last post offended me. And if there was a law in place that said the person who felt offended has the right to get you censored to protect their feelings, then you will be censored.
And what if that post was something gravely important, something about the state of things or their own situation that needed to be said? Some truth that needed out. Anyone who didn't want you to say it now has
carte blanche to get you shut up under such offence laws. That's what we've allowed to happen in the UK now. It's a mistake.
Yes, it's not nice when people get their feelings hurt, but it is so much more important than mere feelings that speech remains free, and we don't make it so that people's rights and speech ends where someone's sense of feeling offended begins. Because there is no end to what they might be offended by. No way to limit or police that, and it
will be abused, because that's human nature.
Take the immigration issue. There's good and bad sides to that and people should be free to discuss those. Germany however recently passed laws that mean criticizing immigrants or government policy on it could be a potential criminal offense, and over here now if you start tweeting about it and someone gets offended by what you said you might just get a knock on the door from the bizzies. If people can't see what's wrong with this picture, there's no help for them. These aren't real crimes. Real crimes are the ones happening out on the streets. Why on earth is our police force worrying about and spending public money arresting twitter users and prosecuting opinions and racist jokes when we have actual terrorism and criminals to worry about?
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 04, 2018, 07:33:51 AM
I could sit here and point out how I know a very different reality from what you stated here. What good would it do? My blood pressure goes up, maybe you get upset with me. It really doesn't address the original post. The fact is trans people are under attack by the waste majority of 'right' sided politicians in my country. They either are actively working against us or are silently standing by while their colleagues work their hate or play games with our lives for reelection purposes. The 'liberal' media said absolutely nothing about the anti LGBTQI organization that this Billy Graham created who was lying in state at our Capitol recently. It is neither liberal nor conservative to call someone out when they act like a jerk. No disrespect to you personally Kylo.
If you live in the US and I don't, I'm sure you see much more. I'm just saying what I see from here when I look at the news outlets - and I look at them all, I don't have a favorite. You can't have a favorite if you want to avoid the rampant bias and omission that goes on. There's generally little criticism that I can see of the behavior of the left or the far left, on average compared to the coverage of the far right activity. I would expect local news between states might vary a bit since the states themselves have different political demographics too. There are people on the right calling out people like us. But how frequently and at how much volume compared to people who don't, or people who are in protest on our behalf, or people who don't say anything? I can say that during the election, the mainstream media appeared to be almost wholly in support of Hillary and had been ridiculing Trump for over half a year beforehand, and the general tone after his election among it was hysteria. I was genuinely surprised he won because I figured the press had well and truly ground him underfoot in the eyes of the public, and they
were trying to. I've never seen them try so hard at it in my entire life.
We should make this a separate issue from Trump's decision about trans folks, because what he says and does is not the will of the average American citizen. The press is also largely independent of him and he seems to have a little war going on with some of it, doesn't he? Just the sizes of the protests and marches that have been going on since he got in is enough to tell me Trump's word isn't America's word. I'm not surprised many right-side politicians would be on board with his policies for trans people though, I'd expect at least some of them to in the same way I'd expect the Pope to be against gay marriage. So when he makes decision for the military on us or removes us from official websites, I can't assume
most Americans are cheering it on. I also noticed several of my friends in the US chose to vote Trump in the hope he will take measures to revive the economy that Hillary wouldn't, not because they're xenophobes or bigots.
But I agree, the current government will use this opportunity to try to knock our progress down a few notches if they can, that's to be expected... the more high-profile an issue we become for positive purposes (and we have lately) the more visible a target we are for negative ones also, earning a few cheap brownie points from some of their voting block to knock us back. My main point though is that from the outside, there is an extreme amount of media and public panic over "the rise of the far right" and almost none over the dangers posed by the rise of the far left, which has actually done a great deal of damage and meted out uncalled for violence as well, and now we seem to have got to the point where progressives can burn signs with free speech on them in America of all places, or start calling for a reintroduction of racial segregation in universities, and nobody seems equally hysterical about this. Perhaps it's because most people are aware of what the far right and "modern Nazis" are, but have almost no clue just what Antifa is, where it comes from or what its plans are.
It would appear the extremists say that the only freedoms anyone should have, is the things that those extremists do. That goes for extremist conservative and extremist liberal, just as it does extremist Muslims. Fortunately, most people are moderates. The extremist views posed by certain groups are encouraging such behavior in those that are seeking a way to express the anger they've been keeping inside them for years, even if the anger being expressed has nothing to do with whom they are expressing it at. The internet certainly has it's share of trolls, those who hide behind the anonymity of a computer screen to make other people miserable. Sadly, these trolls have learned they can even swing a political election in a direction they like.
@kylo
The situation you describe with free speech is nothing like the USA. People here remain free to say the most outlandish and often insanely idiotic things to their heart's content. This is to the point that some of our "free speakers" who never suffer any domestic consequences for their words are banned from many other countries in Europe, Africa, and some places in Latin America. This is particularly true for some of our monotheistic exclusionary preachers who take such joy in telling people they're going to burn in Hell and that the latest natural disaster was their fault. We're used to those idiots and they face no legal restrictions. They do however face the reaction of public opinion and the free market, as it should be.
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In public discourse it easy to find many examples of disagreement with any position other than your own being attacked with far more vitriol than not than long ago. Or maybe that is just tainted by the idea that the past is much more golden than the present. Both are fed though by tons of channels of information from mass media to websites devoted to the most extreme.
The media and by inclusion our internet may be contributing to the demise of intelligent people agreeing to disagree POLITELY as it is now so easy to find believers of nearly any extreme position. I try to read information from a variety of sources even those I disagree with. It is important to know your enemy as was pointed out by Sun Tzu.
I suspect, if we could get a good count, there are many more positive trans events than not all that long ago. But, the voices of dissent have platforms galore. With confirmation bias we can find nearly anything we expect to find. Find good where possible, be good with others, and hope it keeps working. We could live in areas with significantly less freedom.
It's many years of reactionary behavior reacting to reactionary behavior reacting to reactionary behavior. It goes back a long time, but nobody wants to hear me talk about Oswald Spengler again lol.
What I want to see is less time lamenting the situation and more time spent doing something about it; learning self-defense, getting a carry permit, reaching out to people in proximity to us instead of fretting about what's going on 1000 miles away, and being open to accepting kindness or tolerance from people that the news would have us believe want us dead - or be skeptical of people that the news tells us are our allies.
The US's two-party system is largely a lie used to keep people divided and scared of each other. Try not to buy into it.
Quote from: BT04 on March 04, 2018, 10:50:39 AM
The US's two-party system is largely a lie used to keep people divided and scared of each other. Try not to buy into it.
George Carlin pointed this out many years ago and in all to many of his presentations.
This video from 1992 pretty well sums it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ltrdNp_v2g
Warning about language and anti-political correctness required for any Carlin work. But he spent a career
pointing out that we focus more on what divides us--possibly to our own demise.
It's a byproduct of exposure. People hardly knew trans people existed when I started in 2012. Caitlyn and Laverne put trans women on the map. In my opinion, neither are the best examples. Either way, once people are aware of something, there is an adjustment period before acceptance. My guess is it won't take as long as it did with gays because these things are exponential.
QuoteWe should make this a separate issue from Trump's decision about trans folks, because what he says and does is not the will of the average American citizen.
I guess you haven't met the Walmart crowd. ;)
Quote from: yayo on March 04, 2018, 11:39:51 AM
Caitlyn and Laverne put trans women on the map. In my opinion, neither are the best examples.
There is no best example, unfortunately. Social conservatives are not a monolithic voting demographic who could all be swayed by a single 'best example' trans person. Liberals would do well to remember the concept of plurality whenever they see to it to try to convince anyone of anything.
RE: George Carlin, yes! Political correctness is a disease of rhetoric as far as I'm concerned - there is being rude to the company that you're in or not. We'd do well to remember Carlin and other truth-sayers who give far more of a damn about polity than politeness.
Quote from: yayo on March 04, 2018, 11:39:51 AM
It's a byproduct of exposure. People hardly knew trans people existed when I started in 2012. Caitlyn and Laverne put trans women on the map. In my opinion, neither are the best examples. Either way, once people are aware of something, there is an adjustment period before acceptance. My guess is it won't take as long as it did with gays because these things are exponential.
Transgender matters only really came into the public domain around 2000. Certainly since 2010 there has been a gradual increase in discussion generally - media, news, internet and of course people coming out of the closet.
So basically I agree with Yayo. More exposure meaning more trans news good and bad. More of us breeds sadly more opposition on internet and elsewhere. But again just like gays had to wait, our time for acceptance will come as times are gradually changing.
Pamela