To all the girls that are thinking about having VFS w my suggestion to you is to do voice therapy instead,
Here are some problems that are very common among patients, myself included:
1) Hoarseness/raspiness that never goes away, you sound like you have a cold
2) Volume is much lower than before, it will be hard for people to hear you in loud places
3) Speaking at higher volume does not sound feminine
4) Frequent phlegm at the back of your throat, so you have to clear your throat many times throughout the day
I've heard two horror stories from clients, their voice unfortunately sounds a lot worse than before and is very weak. Every time I think about them, I get chills because that could've happened to me. So here's the most IMPORTANT thing you should understand:
there's a risk that you will end up sounding WORSE than your pre-op voice.
Think long and hard about what I said, you will thank me later!
Hi Risingphoenix 🙋♀️ Welcome to Susan's Place! I'm Jessica.
I plan on the voice therapy option myself. I think that is the safest route to at least start. Surgery has so many risks and there are no guarantees.
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I am an unfortunate example of poor results and I agree with your warning. I would never tell anyone what to do, but I would urge them to be well informed and consider warnings such as this one. Some surgeons have a better track record than others and I've heard from many, many girls who have the symptoms you described (myself included) after his procedures. These potential problems were never mentioned in any of my pre surgery consultations dating back to 2015. I am still to this day searching for an answer to restore some functionality to my voice, although it's very unlikely because the damage is permanent.
"you will thank me later."
(sigh)... :eusa_wall:
I'm so glad this can finally just be its own topic so it hopefully will not end up being inexorably spammed in every single thread about this otherwise honest and accomplished surgeon.
Look, you may as well warn about Yeson, as well. Everybody was praising them left and right over finally creating the impossible - a natural, feminine voice surgery outcome - until other surgeons started being mentioned, and now they're not talked about as much here because they're taken as a gold standard. But honestly, you don't have to look hard to find Yeson outcomes that sound unnatural: from their marketing face, I wonder if they even know the difference themselves.
I don't want this to detract from your own personal experiences, since bad outcomes as in any surgery can range from irritating to catastrophic. But while I empathize with all this, it is simply inaccurate to generalize on such a scale. I saw Dr. Haben last year. Everything went like clockwork. I even still have almost all of my lower register from before, and don't feel I've gained much pitch (largely because of factors that by any stretch of the imagination had nothing to do his work, but that's a different story) and even at that, what has clearly changed is:
- A lot of the masculine overtones have left my voice
- I no longer have a point where my voice 'fracks' into falsetto
That, on its own, is enough for me to call my own outcome a modest victory. I didn't lose volume. I can still yell and speak up. I don't have throat phlegm or constant raspiness. Would I see him again? If I had some kind of problem that I needed to, I think I would. It wouldn't be unreasonable for me to want a revision for locking in the pitch gain, but given the more subtle changes I've experienced, I'm not even sure that's necessary.
When you say WARNING it makes people think there's either something shady or infectious afoot. That's not the case here. If you have a basic common sense understanding of what you're getting into when you try a surgery and are doing it for the right reasons, this is pretty much business as usual, really. :icon_pepsi:
PUBLIC WARNING
I have modified posts to remove reference to a particular surgeon as I have no evidence that the success rate is any higher or lower with this surgeon than any other.
VFS is high risk surgery and you need to be aware of that.
ALL surgery is high risk.
Failure in surgery is not uncommon.
You need to be very aware of the risks and if you accept those risks then go ahead. If you do not then don't have the surgery.
I will not have the Forum open to libel for such comments.
Cindy
Forum Admin
I would say reference to any specific Dr's is out of bounds, on any level.
Given that.... I have never personally met anyone who has had FVS and would love to. I have not had it and my lack of practice and my comfort level with myself have pretty much kept me from working on my current voice much. I HAVE had professional coaching and training from a large private college voice therapy dept in Dallas. It was very good and gave me all the resources to use should I chose to continue training.
So....I have no personal experience with VFS, but have had training.
I have heard hooror stories and stories of "magical" success. Once again, my personal experience is nill.
TY moderator for not letting this turn into a "this dr or that dr or that one" thing. Very professional moderation says I :)
J
I had good results in my surgery with Haben. Feel free to contact me on Facebook Messenger, if you wish to hear it. Make sure when you send me a friend request you specify Transgender or Susan's Place.
Pre-surgery I was almost 100% male identified when I called people or they called my phone number (blindly not knowing who they were talking to in advance). Post surgery same situations identified 100% female. I also don't generally have any hoarseness problems, and I was a ex-smoker. Occasionally in loud environments people do have issues understanding me but even my genetic female friends often have the same issues. As Cindy said your results may vary. In my case:
1) Hoarseness/raspiness that never goes away, you sound like you have a cold
2) Volume is much lower than before, it will be hard for people to hear you in loud places - Maybe a little but this is why women have to be so careful with their enunciation.
3) Speaking at higher volume does not sound feminine
4) Frequent phlegm at the back of your throat, so you have to clear your throat many times throughout the day
If you are not happy with your voice try talking to your doctor and see what can be done.
Voice therapy never hurts and if you decide to have surgery at a later date, it's only money. Even with voice surgery you have to say and phrase things in a feminine manner, something I did naturally. But the biggest advantage in my opinion is that my voice never snaps back to the old male voice when I first wake up, get angry, upset, or stressed. I don't ever have to think about it, it's my natural voice.
I consider my surgery with Haben as some of the best money I have spent on my transition. I have a voice therapist friend who listened to my voice post surgery, and even she was impressed.
I will add two cents. Bad results can happen. I had a lot of issues with facial surgery that took a lot of money to fix. If it is elective surgery, it is on your dime. Make sure you know the risks and be ready to deal with it. Voice is the hardest, most difficult thing to me.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 20, 2018, 05:02:55 PM
I will add two cents. Bad results can happen. I had a lot of issues with facial surgery that took a lot of money to fix. If it is elective surgery, it is on your dime. Make sure you know the risks and be ready to deal with it. Voice is the hardest, most difficult thing to me.
Love the new picture, hon!
Hugs, Devlyn
Posts by Rising Phoenix has been removed and they have been banned for 30 days for violating TOS 2. This makes the second user in the last few days for the same reasons so I am going to share this with everyone.
The doctor's name has been removed for the following reason.
QuoteThe problem is on the internet we have no way to know that you are a real person, that you had the surgery by the doctor in question, and that you had the problems you portray, for the reasons you portray. We have had cases in the past where one doctor's people would register multiple accounts on the site to bash a competing doctor. It happens a lot in the FFS arena. If we allowed slander on a site moderated as this one is we can be sued. So for this site's protection the policy is general discussion and warnings are fine, but targeting specific doctors is not.
If you want to provide proof such a copy of your drivers license, verified medical reports/records, a copy of a lawsuit bearing your name, and the resulting judicial judgement on that lawsuit in your favor, etc. Then we can consider allowing a more detailed posting. But otherwise we will stick with a more general discussion of the subject matter.
The same applies equally to everyone, and to every doctor.
If you have an issue with a moderator's actions or site policy, keep it off the forums. PM Cindy or myself. Posting it on the forums will simply get you banned!
I think many of you know my story. A redo by the same surgeon enabled me to have a successful outcome. I rely on my voice on a daily basis. As a yoga teacher, I am in the public eye and, not long ago, I was in newspapers and such in Philly, so my voice is what makes me money. I lost tons of volume after the surgery and I lost my ability to sing, but just like OU812, the masculine tones in my voice have gone. There is a distinct difference between my old voice and my new voice and I cringe every time I hear recordings of my old voice. I used to be able to teach yoga in a huge room without the use of a headset but now I almost always use a headset unless I teach in a small room. Over the phone, maybe 10% of the time I still get clocked but that's because I revert to old habits, not because of my voice. I sound like Winnie the Pooh sometimes after I drink lots of soda (I know, I know, stop drinking soda) and I have to take breaks every now and again to rest my voice because it wears easily, but that's okay. The feeling of waking up next to a boyfriend (or husband) and not even needing to be conscious of adjusting my voice is a priceless thing. The feeling of talking to people who treat me like a human being and not like some odd duck is a beautiful thing, too, especially when most people aren't aware that I'm trans. So, VFS has been a modest victory for me as well, and all the modest victories I've had add up to a pretty damn good victory overall and that's all many of us can hope for. Life goes on and at some point you have to find peace within yourself and just be happy with who you are and what you have.
I think it's great that you are satisfied with your voice, but we all have different expectations. If my surgeon had told me I would get a voice that "passes" but I would sound constantly hoarse, have almost no volume, and be completely unable to sing then I would not have gone forward with the procedure. I made sure to ask very specific questions about those symptoms and was told "not to worry about it" because "the only risk is little or no pitch gain." I hope that in the future, all surgeons are honest and open about the possible outcomes.
That is why it is important to take into account the voice you have and what can be gained by doing voice training first. It's also important to be educated and know that surgery doesn't come without risk. Then considering all the facts and options determine if it is right for you or not. For me voice surgery isn't a good option because I could lose far more than I probably would gain from such a surgery. The big thing is to ask the surgeon specific questions and if the responses are not to your liking then look elsewhere. No surgeon is perfect and finding the right surgeon for you and your own situation is crucial. In the end, you also need to have realistic expectations or you will never be happy with the result no matter what it is and you do that by going in knowing things can go wrong or not exactly as planned, expected or hoped. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: kwala on March 21, 2018, 02:36:11 PM
I think it's great that you are satisfied with your voice, but we all have different expectations. If my surgeon had told me I would get a voice that "passes" but I would sound constantly hoarse, have almost no volume, and be completely unable to sing then I would not have gone forward with the procedure. I made sure to ask very specific questions about those symptoms and was told "not to worry about it" because "the only risk is little or no pitch gain." I hope that in the future, all surgeons are honest and open about the possible outcomes.
I have made the decision to go to Yeson for VFS in October. I've been following this topic for a little while but I'm too worried about breaking any kind of rule now which is why I haven't commented.
Quote from: Mariah on March 21, 2018, 02:48:48 PM
That is why it is important to take into account the voice you have and what can be gained by doing voice training first. It's also important to be educated and know that surgery doesn't come without risk. Then considering all the facts and options determine if it is right for you or not. For me voice surgery isn't a good option because I could lose far more than I probably would gain from such a surgery. The big thing is to ask the surgeon specific questions and if the responses are not to your liking then look elsewhere. No surgeon is perfect and finding the right surgeon for you and your own situation is crucial. In the end, you also need to have realistic expectations or you will never be happy with the result no matter what it is and you do that by going in knowing things can go wrong or not exactly as planned, expected or hoped. Hugs
Mariah
Mariah, I so agree! It's just unfortunate that in my case I made it know how important singing was to me, and despite several pointed questions and concerns- I was told there was no worry I could lose my singing voice. This, and many other answers, turned out not to be true.
Ellement of freedom- I've been to Yeson to try to correct my problem and I can tell you that they are a total class act. Dr. Kim was not my original surgeon, but he did help me with another (non VFS) procedure after my glottoplasty in the states was botched. If you have Jesse's email already, I would not hesitate to ask as many questions as you wish. His procedure does differ from most others and is probably why he boasts such a high success rate. I truly wish I had gone to see him instead of where I ended up. In any case, every person has to make up their own mind, but I would not be shy about asking them any questions that pop into your head. You only get one set of vocal cords and you should definitely know what you're getting into. The Yeson staff is professional and easy going and I have no doubt that they will respond to everything you ask.
Quote from: kwala on March 21, 2018, 09:45:19 PM
Ellement of freedom- I've been to Yeson to try to correct my problem and I can tell you that they are a total class act. Dr. Kim was not my original surgeon, but he did help me with another (non VFS) procedure after my glottoplasty in the states was botched. If you have Jesse's email already, I would not hesitate to ask as many questions as you wish. His procedure does differ from most others and is probably why he boasts such a high success rate. I truly wish I had gone to see him instead of where I ended up. In any case, every person has to make up their own mind, but I would not be shy about asking them any questions that pop into your head. You only get one set of vocal cords and you should definitely know what you're getting into. The Yeson staff is professional and easy going and I have no doubt that they will respond to everything you ask.
I'm very content with my decision to go to Yeson. Thank you for reaffirming!
I'm too scared of surgery of any kind. So I have no right to say anything.
But :) after reading a few medical publications on the subject I found this good one:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a414/c9f19dbd717438f3fa988514ae077430d863.pdf
I glanced over the procedure bit and only read the Discussion part, but 2 points that stood out to me were:
"surgery alone does not seem to achieve the optimum results that MTF transsexual patients wish. Neither do the use of merely functional techniques (vocal technique) by themselves. Consequently, the success of the surgery through the Wendler technique appears to depend as much on correct ENT intervention from expert, well-trained hands as on the participation in the process of post-surgery treatment; such treatment covers functional techniques of voice emission, modulation and projection, with the help of an experienced speech therapist,"
and
"In conclusion, it can be said that the Wendler glottoplasty, properly applied and with the necessary precautions not to damage the vocal ligament---which is the main risk---seems to be a very effective procedure, less aggressive than other techniques, to achieve acceptable voice feminization "
Plus this publication:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315704080_Transgender_Phonosurgery_A_Systematic_Review_and_Meta-analysis (which has links to other studies)
"Preoperative speech therapy, postoperative voice rest, and reporting of patient satisfaction were inconsistent"
Recently, I've encountered several instances in real life and on television where a woman was speaking and if you didn't look at her from the beginning, you would swear the woman had a man's voice. In most cases, it was pitch or lack of cadence/prosody. I believe both men and women are starting to use similar ways of speaking so the result is a more ambiguous/androgynous voice for both men and women. If you want an example of ambiguous/androgynous cadence/prosody for men, think of the man who speaks and always seems to sound like he's asking a question when he's really making a statement. Nowadays, younger men can speak with female sing-songing so long as they still have the break-pause moments in their speaking to anchor other people's minds that a man is speaking (think Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor in Batman vs Superman).
Women media personalities who have men's voices that come to mind: Leslie Jones from SNL and Ruth McCabe (see in My Left Foot and http://www.voicebank.ie/profile/Ruth_McCabe). Those are deep. Then there's Alissa White-Gluz who sounds like a guy with laryngitis when singing and like a 16 year old boy when speaking. Plus, see here for an interesting article on "The hell of being a woman with a MAN'S VOICE: Is having a deep voice socially advantageous - or just plain irritating?" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3689324/The-hell-woman-MAN-S-VOICE.html ). So it seems that when a woman has a deep man's voice, it's considered warm and romantic sounding, maybe even sultry, which is just a nice way of saying the obvious... hey, she has a man's voice but she still speaks like a woman.
When I had my original voice, the only times I was clocked consistently was over the phone. In person and after many years of real-life-experience, because of my presentation skills, I was rarely clocked unless someone was looking for it. I liked the fact that I could sing even if I did sound like a man. With my new voice, I can sound great on my best days but pretty androgynous on bad days and when my voice is tired at the end of the day it could sound like I have laryngitis. I can't sing anymore. I wish I could, but I can't. My range is way too limited to sing much more than an octave. I think there is something to the differences in the size of the throat and not just stitching up the vocal cords to raise the pitch.
On the whole, though, even after almost two years after my second surgery, I still think of my outcome as a modest success. I look at it this way... if I'm a reasonably attractive person going for surgery to make myself look like a supermodel, chances of looking like a supermodel no matter who the surgeon is are slim to none. However, there is a better chance I could look 1% to 10% better than I originally did and possibly a much higher chance of looking worse (think of all of those women who get new lips or cheek implants that are way too big for their faces). Overall, I'm 10% better than I was before, so that's a modest success (maybe even considered a success) given the good and the bad. I think doctors need to curb patients' expectations. These days we rely too much on the one word of mouth person who praises a certain surgeon to no end just because that person got a great result, never thinking that there were many factors that led to that great result. Many factors that the rest of us may not have.
This is why listening to all the praise and listening to all the really bad reviews is not the way to go. I would like to know what the average person can expect and that's the type of surgeon I usually gravitate towards.
A question was recently asked on ->-bleeped-<- about whether VFS is worth is or not and here is what I know and responded with.
I have one friend that had VFS with Yeson about 4 years ago. It did help her pitch tremendously, but it still took as much work as me with voice training and therapy. So it's not a shortcut. I do sound like a cis woman (which is important when your 6'5") and I get gendered female on the phone. My friend is also a HAM radio operator and to her, her voice was super important and she does sound cis. If you do go with VFS, I would only recommend Yeson. I don't think her voice is as good as she was promised it was going to be, but I do think it's good and sounds cis, but it's not any better than mine and we both had similar pitch prior to transitioning. I have another friend who went to a different doctor and lost most of her speaking voice and she can only whisper now. So that's a big risk to take with surgery.
I decided to try voice therapy first and if that didn't work, then I would do VFS, but I didn't need VFS. I've co-moderated trans support groups and presented at the Philadelphia Transgender Health (now Wellness) conference for several years. After other trans women find out I'm trans and I speak, I've had many ask if I've had voice surgery. So voice therapy alone worked well enough for me. I also know a handful of trans women who also have cis sounding voices without surgery, but it's a minority to the ones I know. However, I think it's bewcause they haven't had the right voice therapy and not a case where surgery is required. So I would try the voice training/therapy route first and if that doesn't work, then VFS may be needed to achieve the voice right for you.
A common question with voice therapy method is if you have to think about it all the time. After a while, it just becomes muscle memory. I don't even think about it anymore. It took about 9 months of using my voice consistently to get that. (It's been over 4½ years now.) My wife tells me that even in my sleep my voice is feminine and doesn't revert to the old voice. The thing is that I've been using this voice so long I can't even do my old voice anymore without a lot of effort and even then it's not as deep.
When I first started voice training on my own, in person I never had an issue but on the phone, it was 50/50 on how I was gendered. (Phones can even masculinize even a cis woman's voice.) After I went to an advanced voice class for transgender women, then it was fine tunes and I started to get gendered on the phone correctly 95% of the time. There was still some slight improvement even a year after that and I get gendered female on the phone 100% of the time now. So don't expect your final voice until at least a years and a half of voice therapy and using it everyday. This is because you have to strengthen muscles you've never used before. Also resonance (using head voice) is much more important than pitch, but pitch is still important.
Quote from: OU812 on March 17, 2018, 08:48:44 PM
"you will thank me later."
(sigh)... :eusa_wall:
I'm so glad this can finally just be its own topic so it hopefully will not end up being inexorably spammed in every single thread about this otherwise honest and accomplished surgeon.
Look, you may as well warn about Yeson, as well. Everybody was praising them left and right over finally creating the impossible - a natural, feminine voice surgery outcome - until other surgeons started being mentioned, and now they're not talked about as much here because they're taken as a gold standard. But honestly, you don't have to look hard to find Yeson outcomes that sound unnatural: from their marketing face, I wonder if they even know the difference themselves.
I don't want this to detract from your own personal experiences, since bad outcomes as in any surgery can range from irritating to catastrophic. But while I empathize with all this, it is simply inaccurate to generalize on such a scale. I saw Dr. Haben last year. Everything went like clockwork. I even still have almost all of my lower register from before, and don't feel I've gained much pitch (largely because of factors that by any stretch of the imagination had nothing to do his work, but that's a different story) and even at that, what has clearly changed is:
- A lot of the masculine overtones have left my voice
- I no longer have a point where my voice 'fracks' into falsetto
That, on its own, is enough for me to call my own outcome a modest victory. I didn't lose volume. I can still yell and speak up. I don't have throat phlegm or constant raspiness. Would I see him again? If I had some kind of problem that I needed to, I think I would. It wouldn't be unreasonable for me to want a revision for locking in the pitch gain, but given the more subtle changes I've experienced, I'm not even sure that's necessary.
When you say WARNING it makes people think there's either something shady or infectious afoot. That's not the case here. If you have a basic common sense understanding of what you're getting into when you try a surgery and are doing it for the right reasons, this is pretty much business as usual, really. :icon_pepsi:
I agree, seems melodramatic to say the least.
I had VFS / CTA back in 1994 or so with Dr. Menard (now retired) in Montreal.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON I met warned me not to. I am incredibly strong willed.
Guess what? It worked. My voice is wonderfully female. Granted my singing range isn't as good as it was, but I can still sing just fine, and in alto/soprano range. My voice registers female. I have worked in plenty nursing homes so can get much louder depending on need.
Don't be an alarmist... not everyone, of course, went through it fine. I did. I sound great. So there.
I am very happy with Dr. Haben working on me. It was the last piece of the puzzle to being just another girl. Risk be dammed it was worth it!!!!!!!!!!!
I can vouch for Katie's success as her videos were very inspiring to me and convinced me that Dr. Haben was a good choice for me.
Okay, so like others here my success in my job does depend a lot on how cis I sound. It's sad to say this, but many people do not want a trans woman invading their little yoga bubble, so I'm forced to hide my past so they don't feel uncomfortable. If something looks or sounds a little off to my yoga students or in one of my telephone occupations, I would probably not be as successful as I am. That little 10% help that voice surgery gave me, which is basically a lower limit on my pitch so it wouldn't go below a certain pitch, is well worth the $10k or so I spent.
As for my telephone occupation, I've been told my voice sounds really nice. Maybe only one person didn't believe I was cis and he was really searching, I think. I attribute my voice success to not my pitch but the way I speak, which is basically to be authentic and not try so hard.