This is a post about voice and speaking but not about the actual sound. I am talking about the psychological side of speaking differently. Am I the only one? I seem to have trouble allowing myself a more feminine voice including intonation around some people. I tend to be okay with people I am comfortable with and, for whatever reason, ordering in restaurants. Some people who knew me before as a male though, cause me to tense up. I have thought about this a lot and came up with a thought that I am not especially proud of, but I think I am afraid of sounding like a stereotype of a gay man. Keep in mind that I have no hesitation to accept my femininity in other ways, but I feel I am really struggling with mentally letting go of the old in regard to my voice. Any thoughts?
Is it leftover misplaced fear that you had from the start of your transition. We all have or have had that fear of rejection from old acquaintances, loved ones or friends. Maybe finding that strength you had then and reapplying it could put you in the right frame of mind and not worry about it. Just be you!
Hugs, Jessica
It's kind of the same for me. My voice is pretty feminine when I speak with strangers, but not so with some people I've known for a long time. I also sound more female when speaking with females. I think part of it is habit. A lot of it may also be due to having to learn to adapt to circumstances, since we moved around quite a bit as I was growing up.
I also sound more female in some languages than others. For example, I remember when I was little I insisted on using the female form of words in hebrew—but lost the language pretty soon out of disuse. In the languages that have fairly distinctly different male/female patterns it seems easier to also adjust my voice.
And then I guess there also are a few situations where I do present male on purpose. That's something I'd really like to overcome, though.
Hi Moni!!!!
I have had four speech therapy sessions and this topic has actually been discussed. First off, to my surprise my therapist said that I could have a passable voice due to how I already spoke.
The most difficult part for me because my brain can get stubborn sometimes is the issue of the "Head" voice. Once I understood the difference and my therapist mentioned the difference between "z" and "s", I understood and remembered that quite often I'll speak to strangers on the phone in what I use to call my "Whinny" voice which was my head voice. I have become pretty good using my head voice if I'm comfortable and if I gesture with my hands - probably sounds weird. But I've noticed when talking to my daughter in the car and gesturing (which irks her off), my voice is more fem. So the humming, singing and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'ing promotes my fem voice.
But, as I am at the relative beginning of my adventure I tend to go back to the throat voice. I feel quite confident as I grow more as a woman on the outside my voice will become more permanently fem.
Moni,
Yes, I totally understand what you are saying and do much the same thing. It is easier to speak in my feminine voice with strangers. If I am speaking with family, I still have yet to get it right. At the moment I am working on other aspects of voice when with family and just trying to get my voice different. Trying to break out of old habits and work on the actual pitch as time goes on.
Thanks ladies! Hi Cassi! I remember my early transition and I was dressing somewhat femininely to start with. I wore a purse for the first time and I remember thinking, "There is no more hedging Moni, you have to own being female in public." From then on, I owned it and very happily so. My voice started transitioning before I even came out. I made it much softer, used more of the head voice. I got to a better place, but not to a good place. If anything clocks me, my voice is probably the thing that does so most readily. I know I need to make a second jump of owning it, but I haven't. I have to put my voice on switches at work so my students can communicate, but I cringe when I hear my own voice on them. I know it is fear that holds me back, fear of failure. I also don't have a therapist local to see face to face. I feel weird about Skyping with something like this. I set this artificial goal of finishing my hair removal first and that is close. (All this stuff is so expensive.) I have to break through my hesitation and long held fears.
One of the reasons voice is so hard to get down, I think, has to do with memory. When we're in new environments, our comparatively new "programming" kicks in; in old environments, we subconsciously invoke old patterns... including old ways of speaking (which is a subset of "interaction patterns" in general).
What's the way through this? For me, it was setting boundaries: I just stopped participating in environments that would dredge up the old stuff. This won't work for everyone, I understand... so maybe it's going to take something more concrete to break the old patterns and invoke the new. But I have really no idea how this would be done.
Hi all!
Initially, during my first session with my speech therapist, she wanted me to download a piano program and work on matching keys. I downloaded 3 or 4 and could never get it right. Then, I think it was Laurie who mentioned the Voice Pitch Analyzer which I downloaded and it was awesome; records voice, measures pitch and keeps track of progress or lack thereof. My therapist had never heard of it and was also impressed with it.
She had mentioned that women tend to talk and gesture which after observing a number I confirmed. Interestingly, growing up and in a public speaking role I recall being told not to speak with hands.
I will sit and talk to my therapist and she'll say you've been talking with a woman's voice for the past 10 minutes but in my head, my ears still hear my own voice which will always sound different.
I am lazy. I find it distracts from what I have to say to try and control my voice at the same time. I can reliably hit my head voice, and I do usually start out speaking with it. But then I get into the conversation, and forget to keep it up. If I am tired or dehydrated, it becomes more difficult. I tend to make more of an effort with strangers.
I highly doubt if my voice is passable.
I enjoy being able to be more animated in a conversation, with both my voice and gestures.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 21, 2018, 09:47:19 AM
One of the reasons voice is so hard to get down, I think, has to do with memory. When we're in new environments, our comparatively new "programming" kicks in; in old environments, we subconsciously invoke old patterns... including old ways of speaking (which is a subset of "interaction patterns" in general).
What's the way through this? For me, it was setting boundaries: I just stopped participating in environments that would dredge up the old stuff. This won't work for everyone, I understand... so maybe it's going to take something more concrete to break the old patterns and invoke the new. But I have really no idea how this would be done.
I think that's spot on,
I haven't worked on voice in any systematic way yet, my vocal volume has always been low and pitching it to softer enunciation isn't hard. The exception is what I recently saw called here "male command voice". Working in glass is a loud environment and when something requires attention due to safety, I cannot afford to indulge my usual bias to quietly unobtrusive.
And I cringe every time, it's my full on masculine mode and feels jarring, out of keeping with how I want to present.
I should probably get some help with that, eh?
Quote from: SadieBlake on March 21, 2018, 11:09:40 AM
I think that's spot on,
I haven't worked on voice in any systematic way yet, my vocal volume has always been low and pitching it to softer enunciation isn't hard. The exception is what I recently saw called here "male command voice". Working in glass is a loud environment and when something requires attention due to safety, I cannot afford to indulge my usual bias to quietly unobtrusive.
And I cringe every time, it's my full on masculine mode and feels jarring, out of keeping with how I want to present.
I should probably get some help with that, eh?
That kind of goes along with one issue that I have faced and that's dealing with my dogs. If I talk to them in my girl voice they ignore me :(
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 20, 2018, 09:33:44 PM
This is a post about voice and speaking but not about the actual sound. I am talking about the psychological side of speaking differently. Am I the only one? I seem to have trouble allowing myself a more feminine voice including intonation around some people. I tend to be okay with people I am comfortable with and, for whatever reason, ordering in restaurants. Some people who knew me before as a male though, cause me to tense up.
Yes, Moni, absolutely! When ordering at a restaurant, at the post office, or with any strangers really, my voice automatically goes into femme mode. I'm not even really aware I'm doing it until I hear what comes out. But when I'm with people who knew the old me, or with whom I'm completely comfortable, everything clicks back. With my wife especially, I feel so self-conscious about it that I'm continually fighting with myself.
I'm going on a road trip this weekend and will be seeing my sister (who is awesome about my transition) for the first time, along with old friends and former coworkers. I'm going to try so hard to make the voice right, but the self-consciousness is already creeping in as I think about it.
Cassie is going with me and we have pinky-sworn that we're going to monitor and correct each other for the whole trip. Maybe we can both make some progress.
- Stephanie
Thank you ladies! I have found transition to not be one momentous event leading to my arrival of the real me. Instead, it is a series of acceptances of the new and surrenderings of the old. The patterns you mentioned Sophia are a good thought. I have to find a way to surrender those patterns. Speaking with my hands is a good example of accepting the new. I keep coming back to thinking about my interactions. At work I have spoken and been perceived as one thing and now I am very different. My transition was gradual on purpose. I didn't wear heals and evening wear on my first day as Moni to give an exaggerated example. Now I feel like if I make a big change in the way I talk, how is that perceived? (Please don't say that I shouldn't care what they think :).) I want to be perceived as more female. I don't want to be perceived as trying too hard. If I'm talking to a guy, I don't want them thinking I am awkwardly trying to be too friendly with them. I am being totally honest that these are thoughts I have. Maybe I need to practice in front of the mirror. I have often said that the voice is the hardest part of this journey.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 21, 2018, 11:33:02 AM
Thank you ladies! I have found transition to not be one momentous event leading to my arrival of the real me. Instead, it is a series of acceptances of the new and surrenderings of the old. The patterns you mentioned Sophia are a good thought. I have to find a way to surrender those patterns. Speaking with my hands is a good example of accepting the new. I keep coming back to thinking about my interactions. At work I have spoken and been perceived as one thing and now I am very different. My transition was gradual on purpose. I didn't wear heals and evening wear on my first day as Moni to give an exaggerated example. Now I feel like if I make a big change in the way I talk, how is that perceived? (Please don't say that I shouldn't care what they think :).) I want to be perceived as more female. I don't want to be perceived as trying too hard. If I'm talking to a guy, I don't want them thinking I am awkwardly trying to be too friendly with them. I am being totally honest that these are thoughts I have. Maybe I need to practice in front of the mirror. I have often said that the voice is the hardest part of this journey.
I've been wondering about going away for some time, maybe two weeks or so, on a vacation, but tell people I'm having some unspecified "work" done. Then come back and use nothing but the new voice. Let them think you had surgery or some kind of therapy or something. Most people have no idea what those things really entail, and it could be a way to avoid the self-consciousness. Just a thought.
- Stephanie
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 21, 2018, 11:33:02 AM
Thank you ladies! I have found transition to not be one momentous event leading to my arrival of the real me. Instead, it is a series of acceptances of the new and surrenderings of the old. The patterns you mentioned Sophia are a good thought. I have to find a way to surrender those patterns. Speaking with my hands is a good example of accepting the new. I keep coming back to thinking about my interactions. At work I have spoken and been perceived as one thing and now I am very different. My transition was gradual on purpose. I didn't wear heals and evening wear on my first day as Moni to give an exaggerated example. Now I feel like if I make a big change in the way I talk, how is that perceived? (Please don't say that I shouldn't care what they think :).) I want to be perceived as more female. I don't want to be perceived as trying too hard. If I'm talking to a guy, I don't want them thinking I am awkwardly trying to be too friendly with them. I am being totally honest that these are thoughts I have. Maybe I need to practice in front of the mirror. I have often said that the voice is the hardest part of this journey.
To each their own anguish, lol. Mine's hair. My brain tells me that if I had a fuller head of hair I would naturally fall into where I'm suppose to be. Ironically, one thing I do enjoy and whipping my head and feeling my hair flip after shampooing, lol.
And no, I don't whip my brain up before commenting on Susan's :)
Quote from: SadieBlake on March 21, 2018, 11:09:40 AMThe exception is what I recently saw called here "male command voice". Working in glass is a loud environment and when something requires attention due to safety, I cannot afford to indulge my usual bias to quietly unobtrusive.
And I cringe every time, it's my full on masculine mode and feels jarring, out of keeping with how I want to present.
I should probably get some help with that, eh?
If you use it in the appropriate setting, there's no reason why you should try to change it.
I had to use my "parade square" voice not long ago, when I was crossing the street and someone tried to blow through the crosswalk without looking. Safety dictates that you use a voice that commands obedience, and will MAKE them stop. I got an odd look from the driver, because my presentation is completely femme, but I did make him stop.
Quote from: KathyLauren on March 21, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
If you use it in the appropriate setting, there's no reason why you should try to change it.
I had to use my "parade square" voice not long ago, when I was crossing the street and someone tried to blow through the crosswalk without looking. Safety dictates that you use a voice that commands obedience, and will MAKE them stop. I got an odd look from the driver, because my presentation is completely femme, but I did make him stop.
Did you like say "Freeze, M.......
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:06:37 PM
Did you like say "Freeze, M.......
I'd never be so un-ladylike. I think the actual quote was "STOP!!!!!" He did.
Quote from: KathyLauren on March 21, 2018, 01:12:35 PM
I'd never be so un-ladylike. I think the actual quote was "STOP!!!!!" He did.
Good for you! I'm still dealing with my life experiences when dealing with an event that needs to be controlled. Kinda worried that despite all the changes, I may be a wee bit "bi**hy at times :)
Old habits die hard :(
Moni... One of the best tools I have used with the encouragement of my vocal coach. Is an instrument tuner. like "Da Tuner" for maintaining pitch. Study interviews with ladies you would like to emulate. Record your voice to understand the difference. Practice in front of a mirror is a good thing. Practice as often as you can even if only a few minutes at a time. Practice while driving. Study the gestures also because that is also speaking without a sound. Eventually it will become second nature. At our age we have a lot of bad habits to overcome.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:06:37 PM
Did you like say "Freeze, M.......
One only says that to fridges.
Quote from: Steph2.0 on March 21, 2018, 01:50:35 PM
One only says that to fridges.
Ahaaaaa!
Thank you Sis!
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 20, 2018, 09:33:44 PM
This is a post about voice and speaking but not about the actual sound. I am talking about the psychological side of speaking differently. Am I the only one? I seem to have trouble allowing myself a more feminine voice including intonation around some people. I tend to be okay with people I am comfortable with and, for whatever reason, ordering in restaurants. Some people who knew me before as a male though, cause me to tense up. I have thought about this a lot and came up with a thought that I am not especially proud of, but I think I am afraid of sounding like a stereotype of a gay man. Keep in mind that I have no hesitation to accept my femininity in other ways, but I feel I am really struggling with mentally letting go of the old in regard to my voice. Any thoughts?
Yes! Around my brothers and my ex, I always seem to revert back to old habits. Around all the people I met before my transition, it's been hard for some of them to adjust and hard for me, too, because they knew me a certain way. As a "boy," I was like a larger than life Bugs Bunny - crazy, animated, and opinionated. Around all the people I met after I transitioned, no problems at all unless I am really comfortable around them and they remind me of my brothers (in other words, if they're guys and just friends). Around women, no problem at all. Around guys I don't know, no problem at all. Around my ex, well, she and I have had a very bad divorce. Let's just say she was one of the first to accept me and one of the last to accept me, too.
you're totally not the only one on that, I was not able to let my feminine voice out when my dad was around, I used to feel ashamed about me with him, but as time went by I swear my throat changed or something and now I'm physically incapable of producing a male voice, adding to the fact that I'm now living with my husband and don't see my parents as often, I was able to establish a voice that can't be changed even if I want to, now my dad appears, I still feel a little anxious but my voice comes out as feminine as with all the other people in my life.
Quote from: Alanna1990 on March 21, 2018, 02:11:51 PM
you're totally not the only one on that, I was not able to let my feminine voice out when my dad was around, I used to feel ashamed about me with him, but as time went by I swear my throat changed or something and now I'm physically incapable of producing a male voice, adding to the fact that I'm now living with my husband and don't see my parents as often, I was able to establish a voice that can't be changed even if I want to, now my dad appears, I still feel a little anxious but my voice comes out as feminine as with all the other people in my life.
I heard that while HRT doesn't give you a female voice, it can in some small way effect muscles and I think that with that and exercise the Head voice's cord, it makes a difference. I enjoy singing in a higher voice and sounding less male when I can.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 02:15:39 PM
I heard that while HRT doesn't give you a female voice, it can in some small way effect muscles and I think that with that and exercise the Head voice's cord, it makes a difference. I enjoy singing in a higher voice and sounding less male when I can.
That's what I heard, that it wouldn't change, I never practiced though, I just let my voice come out and in the lapse of a year it changed enough to stop being misgendered (even on the phone), about singing... I had an accident where I got hit in the neck and my voice ended up without any volume, that's why I don't sing anymore, I can't.
I think adjusting to the voice is 50% technique, 50% confidence, 50% mental adjustment, and 60% relaxing with the whole thing. I haven't had luck self teaching with an on line course or using the frequency thingy. I need an expert person to help. I have to dig deep for the mental changes I need to make. I think that the fact I started this thread says my discomfort with the status quo is growing and so is my motivation.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 21, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
I think adjusting to the voice is 50% technique, 50% confidence, 50% mental adjustment, and 60% relaxing with the whole thing. I haven't had luck self teaching with an on line course or using the frequency thingy. I need an expert person to help. I have to dig deep for the mental changes I need to make. I think that the fact I started this thread says my discomfort with the status quo is growing and so is my motivation.
The point of being relaxed and rested was brought up during one of my sessions and until that time that the Head voice is in charge, it will require effort.
Might I suggest to just start humming alot and singing? It seems to me once the mechanics are understood, at least by me, practice and exercise the head cords kind of brings everything together.
And honestly, I wouldn't have even thought this two months ago and I still have a very long long way to go.
I don't know if I can or ever will ... I can't seem to get past the 'feel silly' part.
Quote from: Alanna1990 on March 21, 2018, 02:41:21 PM
That's what I heard, that it wouldn't change, I never practiced though, I just let my voice come out and in the lapse of a year it changed enough to stop being misgendered (even on the phone), about singing... I had an accident where I got hit in the neck and my voice ended up without any volume, that's why I don't sing anymore, I can't.
Wow,I'm sorry to hear that. As far as singing, I gave up singing, except for cadence close to 50 years ago. Now my daughter complains that I do it all the time and I never thought I could or would.
Quote from: Faith on March 21, 2018, 03:21:01 PM
I don't know if I can or ever will ... I can't seem to get past the 'feel silly' part.
I think your "Silly Part" is what Moni was referring to as the mental part.
I too get that feeling when I'm trying in front of people I've known for a longtime.
Quote from: Faith on March 21, 2018, 03:21:01 PM
I don't know if I can or ever will ... I can't seem to get past the 'feel silly' part.
For me, I used to imitate all of these different cartoon characters (Marvin the Martian, Foghorn Leghorn, Sylvester, Tweety, Bugs, Daffy, Kermit the Frog, Yoda, Miss Piggy, etc) and was well known for it among my friends, so for me to do a femme voice pre-VFS was a challenge and I'd invariably go back to a male-sounding voice or female voice with male prosody. That's the cool thing about VFS. I'm now forced to sound femme as a foundation and that helps jar me in the right direction. Still, around people I'm very familiar with, the male prosody sneaks back in, especially after an hour or so of talking.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 02:15:39 PM
I heard that while HRT doesn't give you a female voice, it can in some small way effect muscles
I think that my relaxed voice, which is definitely male, has changed since I started HRT. It feels softer, and a little bit higher than it used to, even when I am being lazy.
Hi Monica,
I had a lot of voice change concerns. Somewhere along the way they are gone. It helped me to ask a few female friends at work for their help. I explained to everyone I normally deal with at work that I was retraining my voice. So i deflated the situation. It was really difficult to make the switch even with this helpful aid.
I went to a very good voice pathologist for 7 months. I had a vocal procedure and am seeing the surgeons voice pathologist and singing coach. I think I have learned much more seeing three different professionals. I also have been doing vocal training in my car to and from work for years using A voice program I purchased.
Prior to the vocal procedure I had about 190 hz and I used a lot of the learned voice techniques. Post op I want to get a glottoplasty to raise my voice pitch. I am 160 to 190 now. Post op I was upset with my voice, it has been about 3.5 months post op. My voice and range is improving.
What I concentrate on now most is: streatching my vocal folds with specific practice, Having a straight back and neck, Appropriately using my articulators, Using diaphramic breathing, Opening the back of my throat, Using more air, Rate of speaking and crispness. Stretching my vocal folds has helped greatly in regaining my pitch range.
You can practice a different speaking pattern by learning one technique at a time and practicing several at a time.
Changing my voice was a big issue. It took me weeks to just use what I was practicing with my therapist.
Monica, you are a strong woman and apparently limber from your avitar picture. I know the first thing to help me in my vocal change was talking it out with my friends. There is strength in sharing and asking for help from friends.
Rach
Quote from: KathyLauren on March 21, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
If you use it in the appropriate setting, there's no reason why you should try to change it.
I had to use my "parade square" voice not long ago, when I was crossing the street and someone tried to blow through the crosswalk without looking. Safety dictates that you use a voice that commands obedience, and will MAKE them stop. I got an odd look from the driver, because my presentation is completely femme, but I did make him stop.
Sure, I have no qualms about using command intonation or volume, I am simply looking for a way to have it be
feminine in tone and I haven't found a way.
On a technical side, my normal range is quite low and falls right in the range of the shop's ambient sounds which are around 52dB and if I can pitch higher I might even be more readily heard.
Anyway, work in progress :-)