When my daughter introduced me to her new boyfriend she said "this is my dad". I have no problem with that. I am her dad. But later she tells me of conversations with him regarding me and in all of them both refer to me with male pronouns. I haven't met his family yet but when I do I have no desire to be introduced as "he".
My daughter and I just had a discussion about that and she insists in her mind I will always be male no matter what surgeries I have. She was pretty adamant. When I talked about meeting her boyfriend's family I said I don't want either of them to refer to me in the masculine because I don't want to be seen as a man in a dress. "Well you are a man." She then cited all sorts of things including "it's illogical to want to be something you're not". It never got heated but she stood her ground firmly.
Maybe in time she will relent. I don't know. Last night as we were going to our rooms to retire for the night she said, "Good night mom, um , er ah, dad." I could see an uneasiness in her eyes. I had just come back from a nice restaurant and was dressed accordingly. It was very hard to see me as male. She then made up some lame excuse as to why she called me mom but I have little doubt she gendered me as female. So there's hope.
What have been your experiences with those closest to you as you've worked through your transition? Does anyone really hang on to your old gender, refusing to let go?
Julie
Hello Julie,
I know what you are saying here, believe me. I have been lucky in that my oldest daughter has been extremely supportive and always calls me Izzy and uses she and her when she it talking about me. There have been a few sticky situation, like when I took her to school to get her registered for classes...I went as myself. Now, we hadn't thought this through before hand, but I suddenly became her Aunt Izzy...for every success there is always those who present us problems...
My mother has not been what I would call accepting of my transition at all. She still always referrers to my as he, him and my boy name. I know that it can be difficult for them to make that mental switch in their minds. They have always known you as a male and to suddenly make a switch throws a wrench into the works. You have had time to come to grips with yourself and the way you feel about yourself, you may or may not have had a lot of therapy before coming-out to them...They have not had the benefits of any of these things...it takes time and you just need to be patient. There is a chance they may never come around to truly accepting you and that is something you'll have to prepare yourself for as best you can.
I won't even go into what the ex calls me :eusa_snooty:
Just give her time. Talk to her about things and try to include her as much as possible in your life and the changes taking place. One day she just might surprise you...
Peace and love,
Izzy
Re: When They Insist On Calling You "He"!
I'd warn them once, maybe twice. If they carry on, why would I want to keep a relationship with peeps that don't respect me?
Hi, Izzy, Julie,
I have no children so I might be on "thin ice" here discussing this with you.
If, in your eyes, your family has had sufficient time to learn your name and how to use the female pronoun when referring to you, calling you by any male name or pronoun must be stopped by using a firm approach that you hope won't alienate them.
I consider being addressed in the incorrect gender to be a manifestation of gender harassment and I don't tolerate it. When someone calls me by the male pronoun I simply ask, "What did you say?" If I hear the wrong word again, I ask again, "What did you say?"
Note that I do not say "I beg your pardon," or "Excuse me?" To do that would not allow for me to maintain the dynamic of grabbing the upper hand, so to speak. After being asked enough times, "What did you say?" the party in error will almost always get it right and call you as you should be called.
I hope that this helps.
Wing Walker
If a man calls you he and you're a she, call them she.
If a woman calls you she and you're a he, call them he.
If a man calls you he and you're a she, call them she.
If a woman calls you she and you're a he, call them he.
See who gets wound up first.
Julie, I think close relatives do that when introducing you to someone new. It may be deliberate and it can be unkind. It can also confuse the person they introduce you to who will see you as nothing more than female.......
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 26, 2007, 07:14:20 PM
What have been your experiences with those closest to you as you've worked through your transition? Does anyone really hang on to your old gender, refusing to let go?
This has been an interesting issue with me as my past is important for what I've accomplished, which I very proud of, and I intend to take it with me where I just move from one gender to another. I'm not hanging on to being male, but integrating my history into me as a new me. It is my reality, and I don't have to invent a past, it's simply there.
But that said, sometimes I think it's harder as people can and will mix pronouns - and names in my case, but I go with the flow of people. I want people to be comfortable and personally I don't care what they call me, with humor and/or a smile, a long as they're still my friends (most of family gone now and the rest aren't communicating) and don't embarrass, ridicule or humilate me. If someone uses "he", and it becomes an issue or question, it's just something to say, "I was and now I'm not.", and leave it at that.
After all we accept their faults as they accept ours as well as differences of opinion, perspective and experiences. Why force this one issue as a demand? If people find my transistion difficult to accept, I move on saying, "I'm sorry, I'll miss you, and I hope someday you'll find it in your heart to be friends." I'm not going to waste my time and energy fighting people's prejudice.
I don't see where making an issue of this helps and only reinforces people's insistence to continue. If you treat it as a non-issue they may come around sooner and easier to see it's who you are now that matters. Just my $.02 and worth about as much.
--Susan--
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 26, 2007, 07:14:20 PM
What have been your experiences with those closest to you as you've worked through your transition? Does anyone really hang on to your old gender, refusing to let go?
All the time. It's extraordinarily frustrating and the thing I'll miss least when I move out.
My daughter calls me dad every once in a while. I think she just forgets. She has always had a learning disability. I just let it go with her. After all I am her dad. I know she really tries and she doesn't make the mistake in public very often. She doesn't call me mom, but calls me Sheila. Her new husband is very good at it though and my grandson calls me grandma Sheila.
I also call people the opposite gender when they want to call me he. I made one person very mad, I think he was about ready to hit me. I'm still big enough to take care of myself. Pat seems to think I couldn't. I hope I never have to find out. I've lost a lot of muscle and things hurt more than they did before and I don't have that aggressive attitude either. Pat says that I would probably scream and run. I hope so.
Sheila
...I've got an old male friend who does it.. >:(...... but it's him who gets the funny looks if we are out.... ;D
especially when they think I'm his new girlfriend...
You cut those people out of your life. Plain and simple.
Quote from: Natasha on December 27, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
You cut those people out of your life. Plain and simple.
...so you cut out all the people you have known for nearly 15 years?
Quote from: Berliegh on December 27, 2007, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: Natasha on December 27, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
You cut those people out of your life. Plain and simple.
...so you cut out all the people you have known for nearly 15 years?
I said bye bye to many of my relatives because they didn't want to address me with the correct pronoun. Calling someone a "he" when that person looks
undoubtely female is beyond humiliating.
This year I overheard close relatives such as my mother use gender appropriate pronouns but there was a shift on Christmas Eve. When I finally get everything wrapped up, I will be withdrawing my presence. If they ask why I will tell them. I hope to start a job search for the same reason. I have one person who constantly calls me by the old pronouns on purpose and a few that keep doing it on accident. Management does nothing and I have learned that those who did not know me before do not ever do this. Therefore, a change in who I deal with is needed for my own peace of mind.
So yes, cut them out completely for awhile. If it keeps up after renewed contact, make it a perm condition.
Quote from: Natasha on December 27, 2007, 06:36:07 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 27, 2007, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: Natasha on December 27, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
You cut those people out of your life. Plain and simple.
...so you cut out all the people you have known for nearly 15 years?
I said bye bye to many of my relatives because they didn't want to address me with the correct pronoun. Calling someone a "he" when that person looks
undoubtely female is beyond humiliating.
I can understand that but I still find it hard to ditch people I've known all my life......but I agree is is completely upsetting and humiliating......my mother even does it on perpose......She has a house keeper who I met one day while visting her and the house keeper said 'is that your daughter' and my mother said...'no it's my son'.....and the house keeper looked very confused......
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 26, 2007, 07:14:20 PM
She then cited all sorts of things including "it's illogical to want to be something you're not".
I would guess that you need to have a conversation about what you are and what you are not, and whose opinion about that counts the most. Your womanhood is part of your self, and your self is not defined by your crotch. Your daughter needs to understand that part of respecting her dad is to respect you enough to believe what you say about yourself, and value that expression more than she values the implications of your past or present pedunda.
I'm sorry somebody you love is devaluing you like that.
Quote from: LostInTime on December 27, 2007, 06:54:19 PM
This year I overheard close relatives such as my mother use gender appropriate pronouns but there was a shift on Christmas Eve. When I finally get everything wrapped up, I will be withdrawing my presence. If they ask why I will tell them. I hope to start a job search for the same reason. I have one person who constantly calls me by the old pronouns on purpose and a few that keep doing it on accident. Management does nothing and I have learned that those who did not know me before do not ever do this. Therefore, a change in who I deal with is needed for my own peace of mind.
So yes, cut them out completely for awhile. If it keeps up after renewed contact, make it a perm condition.
Sadly that is what it takes sometimes...to make a clean cut and a fresh start. There are often people who for one reason or another refuse to address someone who has transitioned by the right pronouns...and others will continue to slip up for a long time. It can be most embarrassing a couple years down the road too when you're with some new people to the company and someone slips up on the pronouns...makes one want to strangle the %#$%...sorry I digress...yet again...
It's harder when the people who won't change are family...but alas, sometimes you need to break-off contact with some family members too...I went through a period where I refused to talk to my mother...it lasted 5 years...and we still don't talk too often.
Transitioning is the hardest thing anyone can ever do in their life...and sadly there are often people we can't bring forward with us to our new lives...but you know what?? It's truly
there loss...for often it's not until people transition...and start to feel comfortable within their own skin that they truly start to live and be happy...and those who we have to leave behind won't have the opportunity to see us for who we truly are...
Peace and love,
Izzy
This is an interesting thread, and lots of personal experiences. If you're young and/or easily pass, it's understandable to be anger about pronouns, but if you're not either, then it's an I don't have an answer. Clearly to me, however, we make our choices, our demands, and if we choose to walk away from someone, we should understand and accept that we did for whatever reason we did, and not blame the other person for the whole issue or choice.
I don't like people using wrong pronouns or other inappropriate descriptions about people, and if it's clearly intentional, I'll be the first to speak up. I do think, however, we have to remember we're making the change and the choices, and also the demands of them. How many times or with some thing have we not agreed to or followed someone else's demands? And how did they feel about us when we failed them?
The hardest thing is to see ourselves, and maybe before we become intolerant with someone or about something, we should look in the mirror. And ask ourselves is it really worth the loss of the friendship or love of someone else? If yes, then accept it's your choice, not their problem. Changing doesn't make us better, just different, and staying the same doesn't make them bad, just the same.
--Susan--
I have suffered as you have Julie. Our children are so different from others, whether they be friends or other family members. I would gladly give my life for my daughter. We conceived our children, our blood is their blood, they have vested rights, rights that no others have, for no matter what, you will always be her Dad it is the one thing that you will "Never" be able to change, not with all the science and surgeries in the world.
Try to understand, for to loose your children would be so devastating. I have only one child, she is now married and 29. She is still not comfortable with me and I do not worry that she doesn't always call me by the correct pronoun, I have never imposed my will or beliefs on her, I simply gave her the information and support that she needed while we raised her, I will not start imposing my will or beliefs on her now.
She is my daughter, I am her Dad, I can never be her mother, I am not and do not want to be an aunt. Give her time, as much time as she needs. Cutting yourself off from the situation will not solve it.
Steph
Quote from: SusanK on December 27, 2007, 09:44:48 PM
The hardest thing is to see ourselves, and maybe before we become intolerant with someone or about something, we should look in the mirror. And ask ourselves is it really worth the loss of the friendship or love of someone else? If yes, then accept it's your choice, not their problem. Changing doesn't make us better, just different, and staying the same doesn't make them bad, just the same.
--Susan--
Very well put. Yes, it is difficult for people to see things in themselves then in others...it's just human nature really. Everything in life is about choice and only
you can decide what is truly right for yourself; sometimes having an objective third person helps and that is where having a good therapist/friend (friends are far less expensive then therapists ;)) can come in. We all need that reality check from time-to-time.
The truth of the matter transitioning is completely and totally about yourself and how you view yourself. My ex-boss perhaps said it best and seemed to get it; when I came out to him his comment was 'This isn't about us, it's about you. You're the same person I hired so why should it matter to the company what gender you are.'
The truth of the matter is that there will always be some who refuse to see you for the new you; only you can decide if you want to keep that person in your life or not. Sometimes they will actually make the decision for you by cutting off all contact with you after you come-out. I know it hurts to loss people just because you are changing and becoming who you feel you should be, but the truth remains that it can and most likely will happen. It hurts, yes, but try not to dwell on it...
I have lost contact with 3 of my 4 children because the ex has issues with it...so I know just how hard it can be...but at the same time I also know that in time I may be able to reconnect with them somewhere down the road...there is
always hope!
Peace and love,
Izzy
I want to tell a story (and the old timers here have heard it before). This happened six years ago minus a week and a half.
In 2002 when I got back from the New Years holiday I went in and talked to the IT director about my transition. We had made this appointment at the company holiday party a couple weeks prior. (That was the last time I wore pants to an office holiday party.) Over a couple of days we went through how this would all work out, and on January 6 she individually met with every employee in the building to briefly explain what was happening. She asked each of them if they would please call me "Lisbeth" and use female pronouns with me.
That afternoon, my boss called me into his office. We had known each other for a lot of years, and he said that this was a big change and he wasn't sure he would be able to adapt to it. I told him that I didn't want to make him uncomfortable and that he should do what fit into his comfort zone. He thanked me for that. By the next Monday he was on board with everybody else. Since then there have been few slipups, and the majority of the new employees haven't any idea I'm not a genetic female. That included our current HR director until I told her.
Hi, Julie,
You didn't say how old your daughter is, but I get the impression she is about the age of my now 17 y/o son. He has been, to all intents and purposes, very accepting. Yet, he has also told many of his friends and consistently with them and others refers to me as 'Dad' while with me he calls me 'mom.'
I have also gotten the 'you will always be 'male name' to me regardless how you look and who other people all think you are.' That talk generally arises when he is stressed-out about social relationships, school, college-to-come, etc.
I think we have a great relationship together. He brings me so much of his life, his worries, his trials and hopes. He says that he finds it easier to talk with me than with his birth mom. He lives with her so he can maintain his old school.
Anyhow, I think the struggle here is about 'who am I.' That young adult time is, as I recall, a major struggle. If my friends are any indication it is not a tumultuous time just for teenagers who are trans. *smile*
My son, and, I expect, your daughter are struggling for their own identities during their late-teens and early twenties. Their own confusion about who I wanna be, who people think of me as, who will I be, etc. To have a gender-dysphoric parent, particularly, I suspect, one who cannot any longer pass as their birth-designated gender especially, can cause some really added problems that are probably exacerbating the usual identity diffiuclties our children have anyhow.
I know it's hard, as it is for me. But the confrontation and explanatory position is probably the exact wrong one to take at this point. She, as my son, have obviously had this explained to them throughout the process. They are both still majorly involved with and obviously love their 'second-moms.' That is what it is.
And I don't know about you, but I really love that. He accepts me and gives me high regard. Will he shift his focus from what is bothering him about himself to what he would like to be bothered about and blame me for sometimes? Yes, he does.
But, I am convinced that if we leave them to their own devices, love them, hold them and help emotionally when we are invited, that we will find that our children not only love us, but maybe even admire us and certainly respect and accept us.
Time is a healer, if we give it time.
HUGS,
Nichole
Like some here have expressed, I find it hard to understand why anyone would use male pronouns for someone who looks, acts and dresses like me. Work is the only place I'm not out yet and more often than not I'm gendered female when out to lunch or stopping at the store on the way home. But I know those who have known me so long in male will tend initially to look past the physical presentation and use terms that were only appropriate before I began transition.
I'm perfectly okay with my kids calling me dad. That's who I am. I'll never insist they call me mom. They have a mom. But when in public, especially when meeting new people, I have to put my foot down. When we meet or even see new people the first thing we do is gender them. It's not even a conscience thought, it just happens. When someone new sees me they will gender me female. Why add confusion to what could be a pleasant meeting by calling me "he"? That alone could destroy any chance of having a normal relationship with them. And when you start off male you'll have an uphill fight with them to get them to see you as female. Why add any more difficulty to this trans life?
I'm not saying I pass perfectly and that no one will know if they aren't told. My physique to some degree and my voice to a larger degree will give me away to anyone who's mind allows them to go there. (Yes, I believe there are those around us who won't let themselves "go there". It's called denial ;) )But it's one thing to suspect and another thing to know. I want people to know me first for who I am in my heart. If they continue to be in my life then we can talk about my male past. But that should be my decision and not the decision of those who once knew me as male.
When my daughter came back home my ex stopped over. We went out to dinner. During the dinner she kept referring to me in the masculine. When she did that in front of the waitress I referred to her as "him". She immediately protested, "I'm a woman!" I said so was I. "No you're not. You're a man." I told her my brain is wired female but rather than cause a scene I politely asked if she could refer to me in the feminine when in public. She hesitantly agreed. My 25 year old daughter didn't have any problem with that. Seems her mom can learn a few things from her.
I know this will be just another challenge in the life so many of us live. But this nor any other challenge will prevent me from completing my transition. Then again, is one's transition ever really complete?
Julie
My kids are the only people that I have allowed an exception for myself. My oldest daughter always refers to me in the feminine or she calls me Izzy when we're in public places. My other kids, who live with their mother, all still call me dad and that's fine with me for I will always be their father. The problem I have had is when the younger one slips up in public and calls me dad...she's only five so I can't really get too angry with her can I?
This has led to some rather interesting situations to say the least...but I have learned to just let them go. What do I care in the long run what someone on the tram at the zoo thinks of me when one of my kids slip?? I don't...I'll most likely never even see that person again in my life and even if I do there is a good chance they won't remember the incident anyway.
There is only so much in life that we have control over...so why bother worrying about those things we can't control??
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 29, 2007, 03:53:54 PM
What do I care in the long run what someone on the tram at the zoo thinks of me when one of my kids slip?? I don't...I'll most likely never even see that person again in my life and even if I do there is a good chance they won't remember the incident anyway.
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
Another way to look at this is that these strangers are realizing we not only exist but we are parents with kids we are raising. They might walk away with a better understanding that we are people just like them. Maybe, hopefully.
Julie
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 29, 2007, 06:10:27 PM
Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 29, 2007, 03:53:54 PM
What do I care in the long run what someone on the tram at the zoo thinks of me when one of my kids slip?? I don't...I'll most likely never even see that person again in my life and even if I do there is a good chance they won't remember the incident anyway.
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
Another way to look at this is that these strangers are realizing we not only exist but we are parents with kids we are raising. They might walk away with a better understanding that we are people just like them. Maybe, hopefully.
Julie
giving them "enough" time to cope with your transition is perfectly fine. the problem is that sometimes "enough" is never enough and months become years, years become decades and what do you know? one day you turn 92 and they're still calling you,
he. pathetic, don't cha think?
When it is someone I need to deal with, I correct them, immediately, just as any genetic woman would. When it is someone I will never deal with again, I usually let it go. My mother will still not call me Nickie, or daughter, or her, but she hasn't seen me since transition. I let it go, for now, she is 80 years old.