I would like to start off with saying that this is simply my opinion and am totally okay if people disagree with me.
Second, I really do not want to offend anyone or trigger dysphoria.
I was curious what you guys on here thought and figured if I wrote what I thinking down it make more sense *Shrugs*
With that being said I'll put it short than explain.
As a transgender guy my sex will always be female while my gender is male.
Now, I tried talking about this with a few people I know, some trans some not, and they always shut me down saying both my sex and gender are male. But put simply I can not change genetics, my wide hips, etc. With that said I really do not care about that. As long as people do not argue about my gender being male and if I can express/change myself however I deem fit I will be my happiest and truest self.
Quote from: acidonangles on May 24, 2018, 02:10:14 PM
I would like to start off with saying that this is simply my opinion and am totally okay if people disagree with me.
Second, I really do not want to offend anyone or trigger dysphoria.
I was curious what you guys on here thought and figured if I wrote what I thinking down it make more sense *Shrugs*
With that being said I'll put it short than explain.
As a transgender guy my sex will always be female while my gender is male.
Now, I tried talking about this with a few people I know, some trans some not, and they always shut me down saying both my sex and gender are male. But put simply I can not change genetics, my wide hips, etc. With that said I really do not care about that. As long as people do not argue about my gender being male and if I can express/change myself however I deem fit I will be my happiest and truest self.
This sounds like how I don't agree with being called transsexual, and prefer the term transgender. Genetically, I'm female, adding testosterone isn't going to get rid of my high predisposition to primarily female diseases, and it won't get rid of my chance of things like cervical cancer. Just like I will never have testicular cancer. I am female genetically, my sex has not changed, and no matter what I do to myself, it will never completely change. But, don't socially treat me like I'm female, my gender is male.
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Quote from: acidonangles on May 24, 2018, 02:10:14 PM
I would like to start off with saying that this is simply my opinion and am totally okay if people disagree with me.
Second, I really do not want to offend anyone or trigger dysphoria.
I was curious what you guys on here thought and figured if I wrote what I thinking down it make more sense *Shrugs*
With that being said I'll put it short than explain.
As a transgender guy my sex will always be female while my gender is male.
Now, I tried talking about this with a few people I know, some trans some not, and they always shut me down saying both my sex and gender are male. But put simply I can not change genetics, my wide hips, etc. With that said I really do not care about that. As long as people do not argue about my gender being male and if I can express/change myself however I deem fit I will be my happiest and truest self.
Let me try to phrase this from heir point of view, expressing how "they see it" how much do men really know about female life? Most guys look oh she's hot, let tease her make her laugh and try to get her into bed.
Males are really ignorant of females, and likewise females are often clueless about males. Ask anyone who is married and why their marriage lasts, they'll all agree that It takes patience, listening and work and respect.
Transgender are in a situation where medical evidence doesn't fit the complaints of the patient. I have been reading a lot of ligature lately, both recent and old. There is outstanding agreement on the theories of transsexualism that happen to fit the facts.
But the treatment is the same, if the social problems are severe enough allow transition. Because while the theories can't be disproven yet. They do nothing to help the patient. So transition is a band-aid that seems to stop the bleeding. What has caused the injury is still unproved, only a theories that happen to fit the cause.
So when people are saying umm no, you are both gender and sex male. While you may not like it. They aren't lying. They just have no interest into buying into your argument. Why should they? There is no proof stating cross genders even exist.
This will never change until doctors can prove cross genders exist with biological, tested, and confirmed medical evidence. At present there is none. Only theories.
Hence non-transgenders have no reason to accept this view point. At best they can do is accept you for you, whoever that is.
Quote from: Grunt on May 24, 2018, 02:27:22 PM
This sounds like how I don't agree with being called transsexual, and prefer the term transgender. Genetically, I'm female, adding testosterone isn't going to get rid of my high predisposition to primarily female diseases, and it won't get rid of my chance of things like cervical cancer. Just like I will never have testicular cancer. I am female genetically, my sex has not changed, and no matter what I do to myself, it will never completely change. But, don't socially treat me like I'm female, my gender is male.
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I'm happy to see that someone agrees :P Although what bothered me was the fact that the people I talked to before shut me down before I explained why.
Quote from: Ashley0808 on May 24, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
Let me try to phrase this from heir point of view, expressing how "they see it" how much do men really know about female life? Most guys look oh she's hot, let tease her make her laugh and try to get her into bed.
Males are really ignorant of females, and likewise females are often clueless about males. Ask anyone who is married and why their marriage lasts, they'll all agree that It takes patience, listening and work and respect.
Transgender are in a situation where medical evidence doesn't fit the complaints of the patient. I have been reading a lot of ligature lately, both recent and old. There is outstanding agreement on the theories of transsexualism that happen to fit the facts.
But the treatment is the same, if the social problems are severe enough allow transition. Because while the theories can't be disproven yet. They do nothing to help the patient. So transition is a band-aid that seems to stop the bleeding. What has caused the injury is still unproved, only a theories that happen to fit the cause.
So when people are saying umm no, you are both gender and sex male. While you may not like it. They aren't lying. They just have no interest into buying into your argument. Why should they? There is no proof stating cross genders even exist.
This will never change until doctors can prove cross genders exist with biological, tested, and confirmed medical evidence. At present there is none. Only theories.
Hence non-transgenders have no reason to accept this view point. At best they can do is accept you for you, whoever that is.
Your last sentence, in the end, is all I really care about. That those around me and say they care about simply accept me.
Quote from: Ashley0808 on May 24, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
Let me try to phrase this from heir point of view, expressing how "they see it" how much do men really know about female life? Most guys look oh she's hot, let tease her make her laugh and try to get her into bed.
Males are really ignorant of females, and likewise females are often clueless about males. Ask anyone who is married and why their marriage lasts, they'll all agree that It takes patience, listening and work and respect.
Transgender are in a situation where medical evidence doesn't fit the complaints of the patient. I have been reading a lot of ligature lately, both recent and old. There is outstanding agreement on the theories of transsexualism that happen to fit the facts.
But the treatment is the same, if the social problems are severe enough allow transition. Because while the theories can't be disproven yet. They do nothing to help the patient. So transition is a band-aid that seems to stop the bleeding. What has caused the injury is still unproved, only a theories that happen to fit the cause.
So when people are saying umm no, you are both gender and sex male. While you may not like it. They aren't lying. They just have no interest into buying into your argument. Why should they? There is no proof stating cross genders even exist.
This will never change until doctors can prove cross genders exist with biological, tested, and confirmed medical evidence. At present there is none. Only theories.
Hence non-transgenders have no reason to accept this view point. At best they can do is accept you for you, whoever that is.
I may be misunderstanding everything, but I don't understand a FtM being told their gender and sex is male just because they added testosterone. I can understand being told I'm female, and having to argue that, but...
Also, I don't understand what "oh, she's hot, let's get her in bed" has to do with anything.
I do agree with the last sentence, though. Accept us, regardless of whether they agree with what we identify as, or not.
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You should at least run your unpopular opinions past me first. I'm an expert! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on May 24, 2018, 05:31:02 PM
You should at least run your unpopular opinions past me first. I'm an expert! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
And what is your verdict on my possibly unpopular opinion? :laugh:
Quote from: acidonangles on May 24, 2018, 06:01:24 PM
And what is your verdict on my possibly unpopular opinion? :laugh:
You have the right approach. Be yourself and be happy about it.
I like the genderbread person image. It shows that sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears, orientation is in the heart, and expression encompasses the individual in their entirety. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
QuoteThis will never change until doctors can prove cross genders exist with biological, tested, and confirmed medical evidence. At present there is none. Only theories.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/)
There is actually lots of data concerning the sexual dimorphism of the brain.
I agree with the OP, in the sense that the situation is difficult, and doubly so to describe to someone who hasn't had the same experience. The part of me that experiences my gender is 100% male, but even with all the surgery and hormones in the world, I'll be stuck with a female skeletal structure. This, coupled with a few other things, makes me feel like the sum total of how my existence presents is non-binary, though I internally identify as male, and taking what medical options are available will alleviate my dysphoria immensely.
To complicate the discussion, however, I also think about how if I had started hormones early enough, maybe I would have gotten extra growth in terms of skeletal structure.
The lines are blurry and fluid.
Quote from: Devlyn on May 24, 2018, 06:35:40 PM
You have the right approach. Be yourself and be happy about it.
I like the genderbread person image. It shows that sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears, orientation is in the heart, and expression encompasses the individual in their entirety. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
I keep that gingerbread picture on hand to help explain this type of stuff to those willing to listen to my rambles.
Quote from: blackcat on May 24, 2018, 06:58:24 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/)
There is actually lots of data concerning the sexual dimorphism of the brain.
I agree with the OP, in the sense that the situation is difficult, and doubly so to describe to someone who hasn't had the same experience. The part of me that experiences my gender is 100% male, but even with all the surgery and hormones in the world, I'll be stuck with a female skeletal structure. This, coupled with a few other things, makes me feel like the sum total of how my existence presents is non-binary, though I internally identify as male, and taking what medical options are available will alleviate my dysphoria immensely.
To complicate the discussion, however, I also think about how if I had started hormones early enough, maybe I would have gotten extra growth in terms of skeletal structure.
The lines are blurry and fluid.
I actually did a research paper cover the differences between cis and trans brains. Also on how the brain changes with HRT. It was some pretty cool stuff!
I agree with you 100%. I see my gender at nothing but male, but that my body's biological sex is female no matter what I try to do about that. Sometimes that gets me down, but for me it's really just a fact, and appearing male is ultimately more important to me than what my chromosomes tell me my sex is. (I know for a fact I'm XX, cause it was tested.)
That's why I prefer to call myself a transsexual man instead of transgender, cause well my gender is fixed and not in any sort of transition. It's always been male. My sex however, although cannot be literally changed, was in transition from female to appearing male.
I came out as trans and started finding language for that in 2009 and back then was before the general language about trans terms had started changing to what's more commonly used now. So I have an "older" language for how I'm trans, than perhaps most of my peers do.
At this point I think I look mostly male, but my hips and genitals look and are female. Having female genitals does not bother me anymore, nor does it bother me to refer to them as female, but my wide hips have been a constant eyesore for me since my childhood.
I'm pretty much post-transition, and over the years of going through it, my perspective on being trans has changed along with my body. When I say "I'm a man" these days I do mean the actual me beyond the purely physical. Body-wise, I see mine as a mix of male and female at this point. And it will always be. Usually I'm fine with that nowadays.
I think I will just continue to let people define themselves as they wish. Some people are transgender and some are transsexual. I mostly identify as transgender, I am aware of the way I was born, but my gender doesn't mesh with my body. Causing great distress. Especially when my body does things that are specifically male. I have always called myself a half and half. But my experience is just that mine. I won't define others anymore than I want them defining me. That's just my opinion.
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Yes it is not a popular view of things, but I agree with you. Just would never have the courage to say it out aloud in some tg support group.
But for example, the breasts that I have are nothing more than decorations, they serve no real purpose, I couldn´t feed even a guinea-pig with them. And no, don´t tell me to trigger milk with some medication...it is not the same thing and missing certain vital things from the milk, which are added during the moment you give birth...
I can appear as female...and that unfortuantely is all I can do. The body is what it is, cannot help it that much.
Better that than being dead, but still...
Quote from: SeptagonScars on May 24, 2018, 08:50:05 PM
I agree with you 100%. I see my gender at nothing but male, but that my body's biological sex is female no matter what I try to do about that. Sometimes that gets me down, but for me it's really just a fact, and appearing male is ultimately more important to me than what my chromosomes tell me my sex is. (I know for a fact I'm XX, cause it was tested.)
That's why I prefer to call myself a transsexual man instead of transgender, cause well my gender is fixed and not in any sort of transition. It's always been male. My sex however, although cannot be literally changed, was in transition from female to appearing male.
I came out as trans and started finding language for that in 2009 and back then was before the general language about trans terms had started changing to what's more commonly used now. So I have an "older" language for how I'm trans, than perhaps most of my peers do.
At this point I think I look mostly male, but my hips and genitals look and are female. Having female genitals does not bother me anymore, nor does it bother me to refer to them as female, but my wide hips have been a constant eyesore for me since my childhood.
I'm pretty much post-transition, and over the years of going through it, my perspective on being trans has changed along with my body. When I say "I'm a man" these days I do mean the actual me beyond the purely physical. Body-wise, I see mine as a mix of male and female at this point. And it will always be. Usually I'm fine with that nowadays.
You just explained how I feel so much better than I did. I would also like to add that I don't think it matters what anyone's sex is, well besides for medical reasons.
Quote from: Laurel D on May 24, 2018, 11:12:29 PM
I think I will just continue to let people define themselves as they wish. Some people are transgender and some are transsexual. I mostly identify as transgender, I am aware of the way I was born, but my gender doesn't mesh with my body. Causing great distress. Especially when my body does things that are specifically male. I have always called myself a half and half. But my experience is just that mine. I won't define others anymore than I want them defining me. That's just my opinion.
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I would never tell someone else how to identify or describe themselves. I mostly wanted to see if anyone shared same thoughts and to see where everyone is coming from :P
Transsexual men have female chromosomes and bodies (I personally haven't had the chromosomes tested but I am probably not lucky enough that it isn't XX though if it wasn't and I would know I'd celebrate the hardest I have ever had before) and that's not changeable. That's biology and a fact that shouldn't count as an unpopular opinion and that everyone who has ever taken a biology class is supposed to know. It sucks that it is how it is but that doesn't change reality and I rather accept a depressing fact that I am unable to change than denying scientific facts. And I think that people who actively deny biology and science are primarily lying to themselves first and foremost and are trying to shun a realty that might be hurtful and hard to accept for them and they rather hide behind an illusion some ideologies offer to them than dealing with that reality.
However though that gross abomination of a body I am caught in is female - what is the whole problem to begin with as I can only see it as my mortal enemy I have to fight because of that very fact, if my body was male I would not be transsexual and there wouldn't be any suffering and problem at all - I, as a person, have never been a female per se as I am neurologically male and females are neurologically female. That's why I can refer to that body as a female body as it is that but I would never refer to myself now or in the past as female as I am not and never was that.
Transsexual men are an anomaly; we are born men with a serious medical condition that made our bodies develop wrongly into the opposite direction of our brains in our mums wombs what causes gender dysphoria.
I personally don't understand and don't like the term "transgender" and it doesn't make any sense to me at all as I don't have to change my neurology because that is and always was male, I was born with my gender being male. What I am changing artificially is my anatomy as good as it is scientifically possible as that is the aspect that is wrong and has to be repaired and the anatomy is part of one's sex so what I am changing are sex characteristics. That of course doesn't mean that it is possible to change ones genetics because it's sadly not but to adjust the anatomy to the brain within the limits of possibilities.
So I am not a "transgender" but a transsexual!
I hope it is understandable what I mean and am trying to say.
Agreed with Corax, and I´m copying that text and memorizing it for myself for futher reference...just replacing man with female ;D
I go with science and logic which is what my first professional background was in.
Therefore if a doctor asks me my biological sex, it is female. I would be an idiot not to mention it, and also that I am on HRT and have had transsexual related operations. Disclosing my full biological and medical history regardless of my feelings is sensible so they can treat any issues properly.
For most other areas of life while I consider myself as good as male I take into account the unique nature and physical limitations (or advantages) of a female body on testosterone, and adapt.
For all philosophical and personal areas of life I consider myself male and live my life the way I see fit. I see no reason to lie to myself about how and what I was born. The body is female, the mind might even be female but seriously disrupted due to male tendencies and characteristics, and I've done what is necessary to fix these problems. If that's considered unpopular, let it be. It's the truth. My biological sex will never NOT be female. In every single cell of me there are markers - chromosomes, Barr bodies, and so on that show it.
That said there is almost no need to disclose these things outside of these sorts of discussions in normal life. It doesn't serve much purpose announcing one's origins, medical history or chromosomal make up to everyone you meet, and only confuses people. I'm a man to the people that see me in the street and talk to me on the phone, and that's good enough for those interactions. I'm a man to myself, and I'm a man to my friends. I don't need to force any more than that.
tl;dr:
in strict medical and scientific terms = female
and in most everything else = male
I mean, is this seriously a unpopular opinion? (Not to mock you OP).
I see myself the same way. Biologically I am and will always be female.
Brain might be female but wired wrong.
I'm comfortable presenting as male and looking male and going by male pronouns because
in my brain that connects more to me than female.
Quote from: acidonangles on May 25, 2018, 11:04:35 AM
You just explained how I feel so much better than I did. I would also like to add that I don't think it matters what anyone's sex is, well besides for medical reasons.
I'm glad I could help putting your feelings into words better. The only times someone else's sex matters to me is if I'm deciding whether I'd want to date/have sex with them or not. Other times, except from medical, no I don't think it matters either.
I don't really give a damn anymore. At some point the semantics and the hair-splitting really has to stop. All that matters in the end is being as comfortable as humanly possible. How I refer to myself behind closed doors with my doctor is between me and them; how I refer to myself in the company of strangers is between me and them, how I refer to myself in the company of close friends is between me and them, how I refer to myself between me and my husband is between me and him, and how I refer to myself when I'm alone is nobody's business.
There's no one way to go about it. Let the doctors do their thing, let the layfolk do theirs, and let me do mine. I care about what science says about as much of the time as I do traffic laws - that is, when it's important to civility, keeping reasonably safe, and if it's absolutely vital to getting to where I need to go. But beyond that, get out of my way.
considering that being transgender is at least partly physical (something something brain differentiation) and not just some "mental condition", i'm not really inclined to say that my sex is purely female.. because clearly on some level it's not, even if the visible external parts had enough female characteristics to be labeled as such. that's why i say "assigned female"; just because it couldn't be seen from the outside doesn't mean it wasn't there. obviously if we're talking about going to the doctor, whether or not your brain counts as intersex tends to be irrelevant. when the external parts are all that count, sure. but those are the only cases in which i would use/accept that terminology.
I have much the same view, though I still prefer the term transsexual as it is my sex characteristics which cause me distress, not my assigned gender role.
Biologically I'm male, but so long as I appear female to people, I'm satisfied. And if they know I'm trans and want to call me a "man", "he", etc. it's really not as hurtful as it would be for others since I feel I am wholly and completely myself and calling me "he" is akin to calling a cis woman "he."
This is the ideal view because it is both affirming of my social experience (being perceived as biologically female and thus experiencing sexism) and grounded in reality (that I am biologically male).
I'm just happy that I only require SRS in order to effectively "change sex." Any more and I would feel artificial. Objectively I may be a highly feminine male, but it's better than the alternative.
Quote from: BT04 on June 07, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
I don't really give a damn anymore. At some point the semantics and the hair-splitting really has to stop. All that matters in the end is being as comfortable as humanly possible. How I refer to myself behind closed doors with my doctor is between me and them; how I refer to myself in the company of strangers is between me and them, how I refer to myself in the company of close friends is between me and them, how I refer to myself between me and my husband is between me and him, and how I refer to myself when I'm alone is nobody's business.
There's no one way to go about it. Let the doctors do their thing, let the layfolk do theirs, and let me do mine. I care about what science says about as much of the time as I do traffic laws - that is, when it's important to civility, keeping reasonably safe, and if it's absolutely vital to getting to where I need to go. But beyond that, get out of my way.
^^ this! cis people don't think about their chromosomes and neither do i. pronouns are semantics, not biology, and so i don't see how it's really relevant to anyone but me, and even i'm not interested.
even medically it's not 100% relevant, and if we're on HRT, or have had a hysto/ phallo etc, we aren't medically going to have (all of) the same health needs or risks as an average cis woman. medical relevance also varies on how you define sex - by genitalia, by predominant hormones, or by chromosomes. If it's genitalia, well you
can change that; predominant sex chromosomes also can be changed; chromosomes aren't actually as important as people seem to think and most people never even know what they have for certain. blood type is medically more important that chromosomes.