How would the police or judge decide if you were guilty of indecent exposure? Cup size? Passability ?
I wonder if this has happened before or in states where topless strip clubs are illegal but topless male strip clubs are ok.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on July 29, 2018, 12:41:31 PM
How would the police or judge decide if you were guilty of indecent exposure? Cup size? Passability ?
I wonder if this has happened before or in states where topless strip clubs are illegal but topless male strip clubs are ok.
Wow, I've never thought about that, but what a great question! I hope somebody responds with the answer, because I would truly love to know! Especially with my being MtF, I should probably find out since it will eventually apply to me too.
Danielle
I would think whatever standards exist for the gender marked in that persons license would be applied.
However (my understanding is) in the us topless is rarely considered indecency since the case in the nineties in ny that challenged the decency statutes that allowed men to go topless but not women. I would think there would be more social stigma than legal repercussions for the transwoman.
It depends entirely on the jurisdiction. Some places like New York City, Toronto, Seattle etc have specific topfreedom statutes. This allows men and women alike to remove their tops in public. Other areas have more antiquated laws that allow for the double standard.
There are no laws against complete nudity on federal lands actually like National Forests etc unless specific parks have specific guidelines. This is why nude beaches are often on protected National Seashores. State or local law enforcement does not have jurisdiction over those matters there. Then there are actual government authorized nude beaches (We have two in Oregon on state-owned lands ) where the possibility of nudity is posted.
Private property use laws usually, but not always, protect you in places like yards etc. even if this space is casually viewable by the public.
In areas where public toplessness is illegal, a trans woman could easily test that law and I'm guessing it would come down to what your gender legal status is, as to whether you could be cited.
Social media sites like Instagram, Facebook and others have struggled with topfreedom as well, whether it be pictures of mothers nursing or other, artful nudity vs. other forms etc. There have been trans women that have tested these during their transition. In other words, ok Instagram when do my breasts become offensive? The result has been loosening of terms and conditions around nudity and there are a lot of Instagram users like "the naked traveler" that have been the result.
Quote from: RobynD on July 29, 2018, 01:27:01 PM
It depends entirely on the jurisdiction. Some places like New York City, Toronto, Seattle etc have specific topfreedom statutes. This allows men and women alike to remove their tops in public. Other areas have more antiquated laws that allow for the double standard.
There are no laws against complete nudity on federal lands actually like National Forests etc unless specific parks have specific guidelines. This is why nude beaches are often on protected National Seashores. State or local law enforcement does not have jurisdiction over those matters there. Then there are actual government authorized nude beaches (We have two in Oregon on state-owned lands ) where the possibility of nudity is posted.
Private property use laws usually, but not always, protect you in places like yards etc. even if this space is casually viewable by the public.
In areas where public toplessness is illegal, a trans woman could easily test that law and I'm guessing it would come down to what your gender legal status is, as to whether you could be cited.
Social media sites like Instagram, Facebook and others have struggled with topfreedom as well, whether it be pictures of mothers nursing or other, artful nudity vs. other forms etc. There have been trans women that have tested these during their transition. In other words, ok Instagram when do my breasts become offensive? The result has been loosening of terms and conditions around nudity and there are a lot of Instagram users like "the naked traveler" that have been the result.
I have been wondering if any of the challenges on these local double standards laws have failed. In the northeast it seems every challenge that has made the news has resulted in the freedoms to go topless being upheld.
Quote from: jill610 on July 29, 2018, 01:30:24 PM
I have been wondering if any of the challenges on these local double standards laws have failed. In the northeast it seems every challenge that has made the news has resulted in the freedoms to go topless being upheld.
I think you're right. Any such law would easily fall to the equal access clause under the law. I've not heard of one that hasn't. Personally, I've gone topless in swimming holes, parks and beaches and other than quizzical looks and some feigned shock, nobody has ever said a thing.
I'm legally female and my California Driver's License has that all important female gender marker, so I won't be showing my 36B's anywhere except at the adults only topless swimming pools in Las Vegas.
I'm just not willing to risk a cite for public indecency so I won't be dropping my top unless I know I am in a place where women can legally be topless.
It would depend on the laws in the area/state/country and your passability, I think. The more feminine you look the more they are going to see it as feminine [indecent] exposure. Even if you had a very small chest, if people see you as a woman and your nudity is causing "breaches of peace" in your culture, that's what matters in the eyes of police.
One of my schoolteachers said that when he was in California, in what must have been the 1950s or 1960s, "men" with breasts used to run through the streets topless. He said that they were called Hormonies and that the police couldn't touch them. I can't find anything about them on Google, though.
The law isn't always logical and it definitely doesn't have a sense of humor. One woman tested it (https://manicsquirrel.com/2011/11/15/topless-transsexual-served-23-days-in-jail/) and unfortunately it didn't work out very well. Best not to tempt fate unless your ready for a real battle.
Hi folks, 29 July 2018
I belong to a nudist resort here in north Texas. Have been a member since 2016. When I first joined I was a cis male. I still belong and am a trans female. They have an all inclusive policy. if anyone would give us grief at the resort, the grief giver would most likely be expelled from the resort and would be reported to the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR) and The Naturists Society (TNS). I belong to both of these organizations; they promote healthy family nude recreation.
If you enjoy a cloth free romp in the sun or relaxing at the dinner table with like minded people, nudist resorts are the place to be.
Like any other type of resort, all are not created equal. Before I joined my resort, I vetted everyone (4) in the north Texas area. I joined the largest, most beautiful, well managed, and strictest resort of the four. They are in Decatur Texas. Hope to see you there sometime.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
Quote from: Dena on July 29, 2018, 04:45:38 PM
The law isn't always logical and it definitely doesn't have a sense of humor. One woman tested it (https://manicsquirrel.com/2011/11/15/topless-transsexual-served-23-days-in-jail/) and unfortunately it didn't work out very well. Best not to tempt fate unless your ready for a real battle.
How on Earth did they get away with refusing to legally recognize her as a woman and putting her in a men's jail, but charging her with a crime that only a woman can commit? The law really doesn't make sense, sometimes.
Further down in the article, it also says that her former employer refused to recognize her as a woman, but required her to wear a bra. Huh?
I'm up to 36B and definitely can't hide them anymore since I have a small frame, that and the nipples got big a poke out if I don't wear a bra. I don't think I would tempt fate and go topless since I'm starting to look more female then male; passed the "strangers always call me miss in public" test a few months ago. The only time they call me sir is when I am at certain doctors offices and see my name and gender and then start calling me sir even though a minute ago they said "can I help you miss?" Why would you say miss then sir? I never get pissed as I don't want to be "that person" that makes us all look bad.
Quote from: Lucca on July 29, 2018, 05:34:04 PM
How on Earth did they get away with refusing to legally recognize her as a woman and putting her in a men's jail, but charging her with a crime that only a woman can commit? The law really doesn't make sense, sometimes.
Further down in the article, it also says that her former employer refused to recognize her as a woman, but required her to wear a bra. Huh?
Sometimes the 'law' is more about power than what is right or even legal. If the judge has an ideological bent, they do what they want not what is obviously legal. We have that with this crazy law saying corporations themselves are people. They have all the rights of people except we can't jail a corporation can we? Yeah, it is about power, not what is legal. Since I am legally female, me showing mine as a test case could only end badly for trans people. Some folks unfortunately are just looking for reasons to take trans people's rights away.
I asked my dad about this. He said what action he would take depends on different situations. He said he couldn't arrest someone for being topless specifically because that would start crossing into the whole breast feeding in public thing which isn't against the law in this state. It's not the same thing of course but it could be argued that it is. But there are other situations where he could site her. For example if her being topless in public was causing a ruckus that would be considered creating a public disturbance. So he could charge her with that. Second if a woman was topless around children that could be considered indecent exposure. It's a very fine line with the police and anything involving anything considered to be inappropriate around kids.
My dad said if he saw a topless woman in public he would suggest she put something on but he wouldn't do anything else unless she was causing a major disturbance. In the case of a transwoman the same rules apply as with any woman. He said in the case of an overweight dude with hairy man boobs he couldn't do anything legally but if he could he would charge the guy with endangering his eyesight and send him a bill for eyebleach. He said the cops deal with naked people more than you would think. Ewww.
I saw a COPS broadcast of Mardi Gras in New Orleans (long time ago) and there was a trans woman baring her breasts and the officer made her stop and cover up. I think it just depends, really.
Us "West-coasters" have been enjoying a liberal interpretation of these archaic laws for years. It is not about what you are wearing, or not wearing, but rather about what you are doing that defines if some action is indecent.
I personally expose my breasts often in public spaces and have only been asked to cover up when entering the 7-11.
Quote from: Dena on July 29, 2018, 04:45:38 PM
The law isn't always logical and it definitely doesn't have a sense of humor. One woman tested it (https://manicsquirrel.com/2011/11/15/topless-transsexual-served-23-days-in-jail/) and unfortunately it didn't work out very well. Best not to tempt fate unless your ready for a real battle.
I find it interesting that she seems to have spent the 21 days in jail without being found guilty of anything or even being tried, and that she could have left at any time after two days, if she had admitted guilt. (Is it not reminiscent of the days when the so-called Witchfinder General denied torturing anyone but admitted using exhaustion and sleep deprivation to obtain confessions to crimes that would be unlikely to be proven in court? I am not specifically criticsing the US or Tennessee, as British suspects are also offered reduced sentences for admitting guilt.)
But what happened when she did have her day in court? I can't find anything about that on Google.
Quote from: MaryT on July 30, 2018, 02:56:49 PM
I find it interesting that she seems to have spent the 21 days in jail without being found guilty of anything or even being tried, and that she could have left at any time after two days, if she had admitted guilt. (Is it not reminiscent of the days when the so-called Witchfinder General denied torturing anyone but admitted using exhaustion and sleep deprivation to obtain confessions to crimes that would be unlikely to be proven in court? I am not specifically criticsing the US or Tennessee, as British suspects are also offered reduced sentences for admitting guilt.)
But what happened when she did have her day in court? I can't find anything about that on Google.
Welcome to "Real Reporting" by fake reporters. My guess is they dismissed the charges, made her sign a non-disclosure agreement and hustled her out the back door. As far as the authorities are concerned, "It Never Happened."
Hope I'm wrong and that she is well compensated.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
Quote from: MaryT on July 30, 2018, 02:56:49 PM
But what happened when she did have her day in court? I can't find anything about that on Google.
If you check at the bottom of the article, you will find a link to the follow up. The link isn't live so you will have to copy and paste it into your browser.
Quote from: MaryT on July 30, 2018, 02:56:49 PM
...
But what happened when she did have her day in court? I can't find anything about that on Google.
Quote from: Dena on July 30, 2018, 06:42:31 PM
If you check at the bottom of the article, you will find a link to the follow up. The link isn't live so you will have to copy and paste it into your browser.
Thanks, Dena.
So, they couldn't convict her of the indecency for which they arrested her, so they got her for resisting arrest instead.
Andrea Jones Update (http://manicsquirrel.com/2016/12/20/andrea-jones-update/)
The moral if the story is: right or wrong, try not to attract the attention of the police.
Quote from: RobynD on July 29, 2018, 01:27:01 PM
It depends entirely on the jurisdiction.
....
Private property use laws usually, but not always, protect you in places like yards etc. even if this space is casually viewable by the public.
Yes it depends on jurisdiction, in most of the US exposing nipples or any genitalia is illegal particularly if it can be shown that the individual had intent to offend / etc. I would not want to test NY law on this. Just because a court can't convict you of a crime due to appellate law doesn't mean a cop won't enforce a law that's still on the books.
Where I live, an otherwise quite liberal state, there is an explicit law that national seashore (so federal land) is not clothing optional. Also here and as far as I know, most states you're totally off base on being nude in your yard or in view through an open window. Yes, there's case law, mostly people get convicted. Some go on the offenders registry.
The only exceptions I know of are pride parades. Otherwise being nude in public is on a par with sexual assault. (not saying I think that's how it should be but that's how it is. We are a nation founded by puritans)
This is an interesting topic. It occurs to me that the bigots who raise such a stink about transgenders using women's restrooms should be just fine with double D cup transsexual going topless. They'd consider her a man anyway.
I'm sorry but my memory doesn't serve me very well on this one. But, I do remember seeing a news report (I think it was a new report) about a person that was sun bathing on a beach without a top. The life guard asked the person to put on a top but the person told the life guard he was male and refused to comply. The police showed up and told the person that he had to prove he was male. This person was wearing board shorts but the police were not convinced. He actually showed them his genitals. They finally left him alone. Some one here has to remember that one?
Quote from: Lyric on August 05, 2018, 01:03:47 PM
This is an interesting topic. It occurs to me that the bigots who raise such a stink about transgenders using women's restrooms should be just fine with double D cup transsexual going topless. They'd consider her a man anyway.
Yea. Too bad logic does not often enter into their equations...
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I've watched COPS on tv & cops would a actually cover the girls up