Susan's Place Transgender Resources

2:02 AM Disclaimer: Alcohol and possibly cannabis may be involved in the following post?

Although I'm working to be slightly more social in this online community, some may not be familiar with my "story" so to recap briefly, I dealt openly with my "transness" as a child growing up and by 15, my incredible parents had long since acknowledged that I never had been and never would be a boy. I started HRT at 17 and by the time that my "transition" was formalized right out of high school in 1973 when I was 18, I was able to blend into the woodwork as they used to say or in today's parlance, was fortunate enough to be "stealth". (I have to use all these quotes because it seems like I'm using language or concepts in order to be commonly understood and for convenience but they don't really feel like they fit or were never part of how I've described things.)

For the most part and pretty much exclusively, I've lived my entire adult life without people knowing that I wasn't born female. I have no family but certainly, I do have a small inner circle that knows of my history but anyone that has gotten to know me in the last 45 years or so would have a hard time believing it if I told them because I'm so thoroughly and completely accepted into the world as female even if by my trans brain's perception, I have some physical ambiguities. There's absolutely no reason in the world to tell anyone, even in the midst of a sexual relationship without some deep emotional or psychic connection that this was going to be a significant thing in my life or that this person had touched my heart and soul in some way.

Nobody has ever asked and it's something very deeply personal for me to share with someone and not something I'm in the practice of doing. I just don't like it when people know I wasn't exactly a girl as a child (but I was never really accepted as a boy either) and it's hard to explain. As an example, I had known my future husband for almost a year and had been having sex with him for two months before we had "the talk" so you can see the depth of how big of a deal sharing the trans part of my history is to me. I just don't do it in the real world. I'm a non-disclosurist!

The only real reason to tell anyone is this crap that rattles around in my brain and that's probably what is prompting me to sit down and write this?

There are three young women in my life I developed close friendships with. All look at me as a wise and caring person they can talk to, share their feelings with and they value my advice and opinion. I've turned to them as well and we've all cried with one another at some point. I'm seen as a trusted friend, big sister and as the cool kickass mom they wish they had and individually, I love all them just the way women do love each other and it's warm and physically affectionate and so uplifting, sustaining` and life giving. Even the dozens of guys I've gotten to know in the last year and a half seem to love me and some I've gotten to know well enough for them to open up to me too. All of these connections and bonds have become so rewarding and such a part of where the joy in my life is right now.

One of these women, I'll call her Karen, and I have become almost spiritually or psychically connected to in some ways and we just click? She's 23, forty years younger than me but wise and experienced beyond her years and is indeed an "old soul". We recognize each other's spirit and heart and see the world and life and people in so much the same way. We both see and connect with a lot of ourselves in each other and this has grown over the last year to where we really do love and care about one another (platonically). There's such an easy comfort between us.  It's amazing and so pure and truly something beautiful but in the last month or so particularly, the thought of sharing  my trans experience with her has been at the back of my mind and I don't know why? It would be a dumb thing to do.

We've talked about a lot of personal things and some of our deep feelings and emotions. We've shared our triumphs and our failures and our loves and heartbreaks and have opened up and been emotionally vulnerable to one another. We've also gossiped a lot too, have had hours of just girl talk and really respect the other as a valued friend and as someone to just enjoy being with. Many times, we just know what the other is thinking or can sense the other's mood and there's so much non-verbal communication between us, a quick glance or expression can say everything. I get her and she gets me and I cherish that immensely. When we share our cheek to cheek goodbye hugs, hold each other and say nice things, recently her friendly girl kisses or mother/daughterly pecks or whatever they are have been right on the lips and we always say I love you. We're both a bit on the queer side but this isn't that, at all. I have no interest in her romantically. It's just a natural warm bond between two women on the same wavelength that does seem to share a lot of the mother/daughter dynamic in some ways. My other two girl friends and even a couple of the boys are pretty open that they think of me as their second mom. (Keith is 39 and Jennifer is 36 and boy does that make me feel old!) :)

I feel close enough to my one special friend to share my tea but I don't know why or what would be gained by it? It would bring us closer and she would love me more, I'm sure of that but why would she ever need to know? What is even making me think about this when I would even have sex with someone or start a relationship and not say anything? (Don't judge)

It's not that I feel I'm being dishonest because I've never lied to her about anything. I don't have any made up stories to tell. Most of our childhood experiences and interests were similar. I was never socialized as a boy and we did the same kind of things, played the same way and I was a teenage girl once too so there's no legitimate or logical reason that I would even want her to know.

Part of me does though so why I am even thinking about telling her is the question I am asking myself? I feel it is a burden to tell someone and expect them not to tell anyone else because this is something that is hard not to talk about and as much as I know she does care about me and would never do anything to hurt me, I also know she's shared things with me about other people she wasn't supposed to and I can guess two people she'd share with immediately, her boyfriend and her best friend, both of which I also know and I really don't want that.

They say discretion is the better part of valor and I keep telling myself that and know no good will come of it but something in my heart wants her to know anyway. I've been wrestling with this for the last month and coyly mentioned to her tonight that there were things I wanted to talk about and she got it immediately that it was something important and personal so now she's probably going to bug me about it but I think that's what a part of me wanted anyway or I wouldn't have said anything? (Trying to self analyze here. I confuse the hell out of myself sometimes!)

I've spent a few nights sitting here and writing to myself about this trying to sort out my feelings and where my own head's at and why and have repeatedly come up with convincing arguments to just keep my damn mouth shut but yet again, here I spend another night having the same internal discussion with myself except this time, opening up the floor for comments because I can't seem to do the smart and noble thing and just let it go.

I understand my situation might be a bit different than a lot of folks here but for those that get where I'm coming from, how have you handled wanting to tell someone when all you can think of is good reasons not to? I'm pretty sure I won't ever actually tell her? I know I should just suck it up and get over it because it would make things simpler for her to not know. It's the part of me that does want her to know in spite of it being stupid that I can't figure out. Any ideas? Have other people dealt with something like this?

I know, probably "first world" problems not everyone can relate to. Please don't point out that being out and proud avoids situations like this but I'll live my life, you life yours. We all do what works the best for us. In this case though, I'm not yet sure what that is? Will logic and reason rule out or will what's in my heart speaking to me in a little voice? I don't know?

What say ye any that have managed to wade through this mess?

Hi Lisa 🙋‍♀️ One of my biggest desire I have is to be accepted as a woman by society unquestionably.  To reveal otherwise defeats that want.  But I'm within in your age range and only started in earnest a year ago.  The fact that I feel I will never achieve this has made it necessary for me to be open with some friends.  This has made me feel I need to tell more of my friends, so at least someone will recognize me for who and what I am.  I think it's my sense of honesty that moves me in that direction, because it's obvious I wasn't born that way.
You on the other hand have no real reason to reveal except to bring a close friend closer.
I do feel that doing so will do just that in this instance.  But if you reveal to too many in your life, it could change the dynamics of how you're perceived.

Hugs and smiles, Jessica

I'm sorry but this topic almost seems like it should be in the coming out forum section of Susans.

The way I have understood coming out was that it is a 2-stage kind of deal.  There is:

1.  Coming out
2.  Being out

From my years living as an openly gay man, number 2, I can tell you, is the hardest part,  as it involves having to repeat all the anguish of number 1 all over again with new relationships where people "assume" that one is straight.  It is something that is a very large drag because it never ends.  But in the end we do it because every human soul desires to have their story told.

I wrote this last year which expands on this idea:

QuoteTelling one's story is a basic part of being human.  It's why we have a project of western literature.  I have heard it said that people are just basically a story wrapped in skin.  When we have to edit our story in order to fit a non disclosure narrative that suggests that we are different.  The very fact that we feel a need to edit our narrative is evidence of that difference. An acceptance of it.  Ironically, in attempting to remove ourselves from trans space we are entering into the center of it. Our need to elide, edit, conceal our story in order to fit more cleanly into cis space is understandable given the burdens of disclosure.  The transphobia and the attitude in cis space that what we are doing is wrong, deeply upsetting, perverse.  The ultimate taboo.  And in many settings an invitation to violence against us.  An edited narrative for the purpose of trying to avoid that pain is totally understandable.  Also, why not partake in the pure joy of being accepted as a woman among women.  We certainly deserve it after the ordeal we've been thru.

But it is a very trans thing.  Quintessentially trans.

While the great storytellers of the past draw upon their struggles to make their story fit into a universal struggle for acceptance and synthesis with a universal truth of being human.  We edit.  Sort of like Odysseus eliding the Trojan war from his epic.  To feel a need to conceal the very thing that most makes an interesting character interesting.  Mmmmmm.  Very trans.

I mean just go to an AA meeting and try to find people who don't want to talk about their lost years as drunks.  Just try. You will not be successful.

Denying ourselves what every cis person takes for granted on a daily basis, i.e., the ability to strive to tell our own unique and true story and share it with our community, to weave our past into our present in one's unique narrative in an attempt to find unity with our past and present without having a ton of bricks fall on one's head is a very trans thing.

I have to ask. What would be gained by either of you by telling her?

I get the feeling that you feel some kind of responsibility to her, to be as open and honest as you can be about where you came from. But... this is tough. Sweetie, the reason a great many people go through transition is so they can be as honest and authentic about themselves as they possibly can be. To live as who they are. Not who they were born as.

By the sounds of it, this person sees you for who you are. And honestly the only thing I can see coming from telling her anything would be complications and awkwardness. You're living as you. People see you as you, and value you as you. I can't help feeling that the reason you feel this way is that part of you feels obligated. And that part of it isn't how you feel about her, but how you feel about you. The fact that it's still on your mind, you know?

If I were in your place, I wouldn't say anything. Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who we were. Only who we are and who we want to be. Live in the moment, sweetie.

*extra big hug*

My take on this -
If you intend to disclose your past, it can go either way, either losing them as friends or perhaps forming a stronger bond.
For me, the former is always evident. I have 2 very good friends one of 15 and 27years respectively whom distant away when i disclosed of my gender issue. Of course many others too follow in the eventual path upon my disclosure. I was prepared for it thou, its something that you cant force others to accept, so I was prepared to lose them. If you ask me, was it worth it the price to do so, well I really dunno cause part of myself cant live with that pretence when I am with them. As time passes, I came to foster new friendship and bonds with others and unless they are of really importance to me and my family which them I will disclose.

It might change teh relationship significantly... or it might not...

Given we graduated HS the same year we are likely the same age... But I transitioned 21 years ago (SRS 20 years ago) and have had very few people in my life that did not "know", and none long term... but I value those experiences/memories a lot...

I guess it really just comes down to how you think she will react and how much it matters to you for her to know...

I don't have enough experience to advise you what is best... just be sure of how you feel about telling her or not..

Best wishes in whatever you decide...

- karen

Your question is a tough one to answer Lisa.  I'm a longtime post-op like you (though not as long - 15 years as of this November [I had my SRS in 2003 at age 40]), and within months of having my surgery, I moved to another city, and took a different job.  I also went stealth bigtime (I did the "out and open" thing in my old job, and got sick of the notoriety that sometimes came with that).  Very few people outside of a few old friends, and family know about my past.  Like you, every now and then I debate telling somebody about my past to connect a little deeper - for instance, a coworker of mine I've known since 2010, who I get along with very well.  The chances are that she might react pretty well to the information, considering that one of her husband's (and to an extent her's too) friends is a post-op op FTM, that her husband has known since long before the friend transitioned.  But, then I remember how much of a blabbermouth my coworker can be at times, and I back away from the idea. 

Telling a guy - he'd have to be really special for me to tell him.  Frankly, at age 55, dating is kind of sparse (not many 50-something guys in the dating pool [I prefer to date guys closer to my age]), so I don't think too much about that situation.

Ellen - also in the same boat as you to an extent

   I don't have the type of experience you might be looking for as I don't practice non disclosure as a general rule. I will try to offer an idea as to why this might be something that wants to be aired out. Even though you are so used to life in non disclosure mode, I wonder if in the back of your mind, there is a little bit of tension created by having this life history that never gets discussed. In your day to day life, you probably don't think much at all about being anything but a woman without the trans thought process. You have this very close relationship with this young woman and maybe telling her might be your way of sharing yourself completely. I see that as kind of a natural thing. Think about it, that forbidden          fruit that hangs there, isn't it tempting at some point to take that bite. It's human nature.
   My thought on your course of action would be that if you tell her, doesn't that put a burden on her not to disclose your secret. If she can't talk to anyone and she is not a 'professional' non discloser as are you, then maybe it gets to the point of causing her distress. I almost wonder if telling a complete stranger rather than her might satisfy the desire to disclose. Of course if this is about not holding anything back from this particular person, telling a stranger would be of no use.
   I don't know Lisa, there seems to me to be something that you want to get out. After all, you are here at a trans website. It is not completely in your past even if your history as a woman is really long.
   Notice, I am giving no real advice. I only hope to maybe give food for thought.  Can you let us know what you decide to do?
Moni

Lisa,

I really don't know. The one thing that does seem clear to me is that you love her dearly.

For some reason, what you wrote brings to my mind several fairy tales. I don't think e.g. Bluebeard gave his beloved the key to the forbidden door because he wanted her to open it. Rather, I believe he must have done so fervently hoping that she wouldn't.

I am not sure I have an answer for you but I do have a question to ask yourself. In you posting I view you to be an honest person. This causes a conflict because your stealth life may make you feel your lying by omission and you want to come clean by removing all secrets between you. One way to resolve this issue is by considering the fact that everybody has secrets though not of the same magnitude as yours. Your friend most likely has a deep secret that few if any are aware of. If your not comfortable coming out, then it's best not to do so. You are fully aware of what can happen and it's not really important she know if she isn't trans. The decision is yours but you have permission to keep your secret if that's what you want.

I am "out" all the time.  I found the burden of keeping a secret too great for me to handle, which is why I came out in the first place.  I don't want to go back to keeping big secrets, so I won't go stealth.  I understand your motivation to come out to some of your friends: keeping secrets doesn't feel right.

But I have to agree with some of the others who ask, what is to be gained?  Is relieving the burden of your secrecy worth the possible consequences to your friendships?  True, it will evaluate your friendships: the ones worth keeping will stay, and the others might leave.  A bit of social Darwinism.  Is that what you want?

You have given me much very good advice. Now I will try to return the favor. All I will say is I think it would be a profound mistake to tell this person.  No good will come of it. You are not involved in a sexual relationship with this person which is the only circumstance in which you would be at all obligated to tell someone. If your friend "accepts"  you or not the relationship will change. It doesn't matter how close you are, if you tell her your trans she will see you as less female or "not real". Also consider if you want your entire circle of friends to know your past. Even if this person accepts you and swears not to tell anyone you're trans she WILL tell everyone the 2 of you know. You have already said she enjoys gossiping. Finding out you're trans would be a very "juicy" piece of gossip.  People just can't help themselves, trust me. Unfortunately Tristan felt we were obligated to tell his family I was trans. It went fine and they had no problem with it. However his mother told a couple of her friends. I found this out when I was over there one day and one of her friends stopped by. She looked at me like I was an alien. I at first thought maybe it was because I'm albino but it became obvious when she said I was very small and that she thought I would be much bigger. Then she asked me if I had a period after " that surgery".

Tristan later asked her why she had told that woman I was trans and she said she was sorry and that it had "just slipped out". Yeah, ok. The whole thing caused me to dislike his mother and I absolutely will not go to her house or accept any further offers from her to go places with her unless there is just absolutely no way to get out of it. I refuse to be a freak show for her friends or anyone for that matter. That could be a possibility for you if you tell your friend about your past. People are unpredictable when it comes to how they will react to a trans person. I strongly advise you to keep your past to yourself. There is absolutely no good reason to share it with anyone. Think of it like a virus. If you tell just one person, that knowledge will spread and spread fast. Please consider this very carefully. I would very much hate to see you outed among your circle of friends. Also consider that once you tell someone about your past there is a very good chance that knowledge will be disclosed to the guys you're friends with. Cis people seem to think they have a duty to tell a guy a female he interacts with is trans. You know, so the perverted ->-bleeped-<- won't " trick" or seduce the poor straight guy thus "turning" him gay. People make me ill sometimes.

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 21, 2018, 10:03:43 AM
You have given me much very good advice. Now I will try to return the favor. All I will say is I think it would be a profound mistake to tell this person.  No good will come of it. You are not involved in a sexual relationship with this person which is the only circumstance in which you would be at all obligated to tell someone. If your friend "accepts"  you or not the relationship will change. It doesn't matter how close you are, if you tell her your trans she will see you as less female or "not real". Also consider if you want your entire circle of friends to know your past. Even if this person accepts you and swears not to tell anyone you're trans she WILL tell everyone the 2 of you know. You have already said she enjoys gossiping. Finding out you're trans would be a very "juicy" piece of gossip.  People just can't help themselves, trust me. Unfortunately Tristan felt we were obligated to tell his family I was trans. It went fine and they had no problem with it. However his mother told a couple of her friends. I found this out when I was over there one day and one of her friends stopped by. She looked at me like I was an alien. I at first thought maybe it was because I'm albino but it became obvious when she said I was very small and that she thought I would be much bigger. Then she asked me if I had a period after " that surgery".

Tristan later asked her why she had told that woman I was trans and she said she was sorry and that it had "just slipped out". Yeah, ok. The whole thing caused me to dislike his mother and I absolutely will not go to her house or accept any further offers from her to go places with her unless there is just absolutely no way to get out of it. I refuse to be a freak show for her friends or anyone for that matter. That could be a possibility for you if you tell your friend about your past. People are unpredictable when it comes to how they will react to a trans person. I strongly advise you to keep your past to yourself. There is absolutely no good reason to share it with anyone. Think of it like a virus. If you tell just one person, that knowledge will spread and spread fast. Please consider this very carefully. I would very much hate to see you outed among your circle of friends. Also consider that once you tell someone about your past there is a very good chance that knowledge will be disclosed to the guys you're friends with. Cis people seem to think they have a duty to tell a guy a female he interacts with is trans. You know, so the perverted ->-bleeped-<- won't " trick" or seduce the poor straight guy thus "turning" him gay. People make me ill sometimes.

My afterthoughts are in line with Julia's.  The repercussions can be life shattering.  Please consider well.

Thank you for your comments. If this young woman wasn't part of the circle of friends and acquaintances I socialize with frequently and I knew her outside of that realm more privately, this would probably be easier for me and I would just tell her. As it is in this microcosm of society at the local neighborhood drinking establishment which is where my social life is centered and where I know her from, I'm popular, well liked and known as somewhat of a fun, quirky and funky character more or less at the pinnacle of the social hierarchy, a regular and part of the "in-crowd". Woo me.

It's a rowdy blue-collar sports bar and grill and a total dive 95% full of young guys, mostly mid 20's and 30's and fewer in their 40's and 50's. There's hipsters, weed smokers, cowboys, bikers, rednecks, sports nuts, everyday guys and even a regular crew of off duty cops I've gotten to know that come in there. There's often couples but women that just go in there to hang out like me are really rare.  At 63½, I'm usually the oldest of anybody and I'm treated with nothing but the greatest reverence, respect and courtesy by everyone and there's well over a dozen different guys that always give me hugs, kiss me on the cheek, put their arm around me or chat me up or want to sit with me or share their vaporizor or a joint and I love hanging out with them because it's always fun and playful even if most of them are of the age they could be my children. I am treated very well. Once the women get to know me and that I'm not some stuck up catty, aloof blonde bitch, they love me too and at least this part of my life couldn't be better. I've put a lot of time, effort and money into crawling out of my cave and seclusion to make this environment work for me. That first time venturing in there alone by myself was one of the scariest things I had done in a while.

Most people think I'm a good 10 or more years younger than I am and it's kind of fun blowing people away when they find out how old really I am. When the people that do know me, like most everyone does, introduce me to somebody new, they go on about what an awesome lady, groovy chick and cool person I am to the point it's embarrassing and this always happens. Some refer to me as their "bar mom". Even people I don't know seem to know my name and those that don't come up and introduce themselves to me. I met and hung out with three new guys just this last weekend and that's pretty typical. As has been noted, this is almost the ideal situation (other than being a bar). I spent most of my 20's centered around bar community so it all seems quite familiar.

I've gotten to know a few of these men well. I held this one guy, the above mentioned 39 y/o Keith that I had a raging crush on last summer (don't judge!) that has gone on to become one of my closest guy friends and is one of the place's true alpha males and a simply gorgeous tall, dark and handsome 6'5" masculinity dripping old school chivalrous uber charming gentleman that everyone including the other guys love and look up to or want to be and the women all want to bang sat with me on the outside patio's big bench seat one night for an hour last month while he laid his head in my lap and cried about breaking up with his girlfriend - that kind of "know well". He's one of the only two guys there that have seen me cry. That I don't like but I'll cry with other girls anytime the feelz come.

I seem to be someone everyone can talk to for some reason and they do? I've had crushes on other guys too and have been going on with this one fellow 15 years younger than me for over four months with an on and off again almost relationship that is still evolving so you'd think naturally, I wouldn't want to do anything to risk screwing any of this up and it's not hard to imagine that a good half of these people might probably feel differently about me and I'd feel weird about it too if word were to get around as it's not the kind of place or type of people you would think of as being "trans friendly". I probably wouldn't feel as safe going in there as I do. I am not ashamed of what I went through in my youth but it's just not something people need to know. Some I'm certain would still think well of me and be equally respectful and courteous regardless because my presence as an not unattractive and fun youthful spirited mature lady kind of commands that for some reason and that's been my experience, but I do prefer to keep my private business and medical history private. I'm not paranoid or distressed about it but my desire for discretion is very high.

Women regulars are few and most are part of a couple but those of us that have gotten to know one another tend to clique together as it's nice to not feel alone and to know someone's got your back even though all the guys would stand up for any of us if there was any trouble. Three or four times when someone was being a jerk or rude to me or was being a little bit too drunk and handsy,  have my man friends stepped in and it's somewhere I can go by myself and feel safe, protected, relax and have a good time. One of my girl friends, not the girlfriend I'm thinking about telling, won't even go in there unless she texts me to make sure I'm there and just her and I will often sit together and talk by ourselves for four or five hours straight or we'll act as each other's "wingman" hanging out and having fun with groups of guys which happens a lot because she's really pretty, outgoing, a little slutty and the same age as most of the crowd.

Telling my friend could put all this at risk and I'm more than well aware of that. She is the bartender and the absolute leader of the cool insider crew and ruler of the roost that everybody loves and adores. She is simply an infectious, irresistible five foot tall,  80 pound bundle of life, spunk, personality, charm and wit and probably half the reason that I'm so well liked is because people know she likes me and we're bffs. I know she would understand the gravity, consequences and potential danger of having people know I wasn't born female but I also know having this information about me would be a Pandora's box she couldn't resist opening. I don't fault her for that, it's human nature but it's why so much thought has gone into sharing the parts about my life with her she doesn't know because it is a responsibility and as the older and supposedly wiser and more mature party in our friendship, I shouldn't put that on her because of my feelings, whatever they are?

It's turning into a bit of conundrum that has me spilling my guts on a stupid internet forum where I'm still an somewhat of an odd duck.

Quote from: Jessica on August 20, 2018, 10:30:54 AM
Hi Lisa ???? One of my biggest desire I have is to be accepted as a woman by society unquestionably.  To reveal otherwise defeats that want.  But I'm within in your age range and only started in earnest a year ago.  The fact that I feel I will never achieve this has made it necessary for me to be open with some friends.  This has made me feel I need to tell more of my friends, so at least someone will recognize me for who and what I am.  I think it's my sense of honesty that moves me in that direction, because it's obvious I wasn't born that way.

From a position of having this level of acceptance, which I've always been fortunate and blessed enough to have, I've had to ask myself if my feelings of wanting to tell my friend has something to do with my own sense of honesty and I really don't think it is that? I've never been dishonest with her, I've just left a few minor details out and she tells me I'm one of the most real people she's ever known, whatever that means exactly? We've been so freely open with one another it just feels like this is something she should know as some of my true lifelong friends do but in other respects, I do see it as a better thing for her if she remains blissfully ignorant. Maybe you can understand why I'm slightly conflicted?

QuoteYou on the other hand have no real reason to reveal except to bring a close friend closer. I do feel that doing so will do just that in this instance.

Thank you for your opinion and for sharing your feelings about that. I feel that it would bring us closer and be part of the bond between us but is it really necessary and do I want her to get any closer is what I ask myself? I don't understand my motivation as this isn't something I usually discuss outside of already established romantic relationships and even then, it's not something I'm fond of doing. I've talked about the trans aspects of my life with two people in the real world in the last 15 years and one of those, not until after living together in a relationship for two years and not even with other people of trans experience until about a year ago when I signed up for this, my first ever forum of this nature. Why now and why her? That she herself is bisexual and her younger brother is openly gay so sex and sexuality has always been part of our conversations might have something to do with it?

QuoteBut if you reveal to too many in your life, it could change the dynamics of how you're perceived.

Indeed and one of my concerns. Been there and done that. I've dealt with this trans crap being part of my history a lot longer than the majority of folks here ever will. Maybe not in the same way and from different perspective but nevertheless, I have learned enough about life to know how this pear shaped stuff can go.

I appreciate the feedback.

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 20, 2018, 10:34:01 AM
I'm sorry but this topic almost seems like it should be in the coming out forum section of Susans.

It does, doesn't it except maybe not from the same perspective most of the people here are commonly dealing with or for the same reasons?

I know all about being out as that's how I unavoidably was until I was 18.  My differences were on display for the whole world to see throughout my entire childhood and most of my adolescence which was completely beyond my control and I didn't have to say anything because it was obvious and not something I could or wanted to conceal because I didn't know what was so wrong about how I was?

So what does "coming out" for someone like me mean anyway? That I was a man? That's something I've never been or lived as or ever even tried to be and considering I was never accepted or had a moment of normalcy as a boy either and never even thought of myself in that way, what exactly would I be coming out about anyway? Some giant upheaval and crisis filled transition full of trauma and hardship on my way to becoming a girl? That's not really been part of my experience either as it's just how I grew up and big drama and huge night and day change hasn't really been part of my life and except for some extreme social problems during my school years that my friends already know about but not why exactly, the only thing  left out of my narrative when I talk about my life and my past is that my body wasn't naturally born female or that I faced life threatening homophobic violence in high school because of it. I can't even think how my family would have treated or raised me differently if I had been born with a girl's body so really, outness for me involves little more a relaying of a medical matter of fact rather than some huge part of my identity or a part of a community or ideology.

Thank you, Jane for your comments and thought provoking quote. There's no doubt that I'm not immune to wanting to tell my story too which is why I've found an outlet for that here that's not part of the real world or my daily life. Other than the things that carry on between my ears, and the things I may post here, transness isn't really part of my deal and why I am thinking about telling someone is so unusual for me.

Quote from: Sephirah on August 20, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
I have to ask. What would be gained by either of you by telling her?

All I can come up with is an intensified bond and deeper emotional connection between two people that already have an existing connection that's so rare and special enough you may only come across something like that a few times in your lifetime. I've had plenty of close women friends before but there's something almost magical and multi-faceted in the friendship that we have that is not only mother/daughterly in some aspects and while not sexual, is almost a bit emotionally romantic in nature as well to some degree? Love is love, right? For the same reasons and feelings I wanted my husband to know before we got married which were not because I thought I was deceiving him, being dishonest or not being completely genuine and authentic but just because I wanted him to know everything about me without boundaries, warts and all are some of the same feelings I'm having in thinking about telling my friend.

It's more about making yourself vulnerable and opening your heart to someone so that they will do the same thing with you on the same level. We have shared thoughts and feelings and deep down things before, shared our weaknesses, our fears and shared our tears together. Telling her would only be strengthening to that connection but on the other hand, I don't want it to get too weird or too close either. Both of us are aware of our capacity to have real feelings for another woman, both of us are expressive and both of us are more about hearts than parts but I think also we're smart enough or disinterested enough that wanting to be close any way other than emotionally is super unlikely. (Haha! Because she looks like a 12 year old, is not "my type" and I'm 40 years older!) :)

QuoteI get the feeling that you feel some kind of responsibility to her, to be as open and honest as you can be about where you came from. But... this is tough. Sweetie, the reason a great many people go through transition is so they can be as honest and authentic about themselves as they possibly can be. To live as who they are. Not who they were born as.

That's just the thing that may be hard to conceptualize? I've always been honest and authentic about myself and openly, unconsciously and organically expressed who I am and have always known myself to be regardless of what name I was called or what I looked like. I didn't know how to be anyone else but me and I am still that same "me". This is why my young life was so tumultuous, why I was allowed to grow out my hair in the 3rd grade and had girl haircuts against all conventions of the day, why I was put into therapy when I was 10 and why I went to 14 different schools before the 7th grade and why I was nearly beaten to death when I was 15. This is why I spent the last 2 years of high school living, looking like, passing and being accepted as a girl that had to go to school every day just like that and be known as a boy. This is why my parents busted their ass to find me qualified medical help and why there was no debate about starting me on HRT at 17 way back in 1972 when this simply wasn't done and why once I graduated I effortlessly disappeared seamlessly into society and the world at large. I wish my mom was still alive so she could come in here and tell you my "gender" has never changed because it sounds stupid and delusional when I say it.

If you could, would or did hide, repress, adjust, change, compensate or over compensate to fit in and play the hand you were dealt until later in life or lived as something not as who you really are, maybe it's hard to understand how things had never been like that for me? That almost seems like being lucky in some respects because you've had snippets of normal lives even if they were never real to you and many have had careers, wives, family and children that I've never experienced. I know that internally, many of you have always known who you were supposed to be from the time you were young children but you couldn't let that out until the time and situation in your life was right to do so. I could not, not let that out and never had the opportunity to be seen as a boy because I wasn't one and we're talking more than just something secretly internalized in my head. There was no intellect or logic or calculation involved in this happening, it just did, genuinely and authentically.

Much of my desire to tell my friend is not about where I came from or things I've been through socially or emotionally due to not being born female, it's more about what my body has been through because my personality, my identity and my inner sense of self have been an openly expressed lifelong constants. If you're friends with other women and part of the tribe, you know we talk about sex and our bodies, sometimes a lot. I mean you can't really mention that you weren't born with your vagina without it unleashing the whole trans debacle, right? We all have insecurities. She's talked about some of hers and I've talked about some of mine but I would kind of like her to know why I have some of the ones that I have is because I had surgery down there which ties back into all the trans bullsh!t because I'm not going to make something untrue up to explain the things that may be different about me.

QuoteBy the sounds of it, this person sees you for who you are. And honestly the only thing I can see coming from telling her anything would be complications and awkwardness.

That's hard to disagree with.

QuoteAnd that part of it isn't how you feel about her, but how you feel about you. The fact that it's still on your mind, you know?

What's still on my mind? The fact I have a sex changed body? That's something that can never be forgotten and I absolutely know how I feel about that (it's okay) or is it that I'm contemplating telling someone who doesn't know about that? If it's that I have some big secret past life and some hidden former identity I'm feeling somehow guilty for not revealing, it isn't that.

Thank you for your comments and opinions, for giving me plenty of things to think about and for the space to work all this stuff out.

Quote from: Brenda80 on August 20, 2018, 05:04:51 PM
My take on this -
If you intend to disclose your past, it can go either way, either losing them as friends or perhaps forming a stronger bond.

I am sorry that your transition has brought these things into your life and that people have disappointed you. That has got to be hard.

In my situation though, this is not someone I would lose as a friend if she knew. It would only make our friendship stronger. The concern for me though and probably the biggest overriding reason for not telling her is that I have doubts she would keep things shared privately between ourselves private. Expecting someone to places a burden upon them and I don't want to do that to her. There's a lot of Catch-22's in the whole deal. Want to do one thing but can't help but think of unintended consequences.

I'm glad you tossed in your 2¢. Thank you.

Quote from: Karen_A on August 20, 2018, 05:19:00 PM
It might change the relationship significantly... or it might not...

Yeah. It may not change much of anything and if it did, it wouldn't be in a negative way. If it did make a significant impact, it would be in a positive direction. It's not like I haven't known this person over a year or am not around her 3 or 4 nights a week where we always have time to sit and talk or that I don't know her heart. I'm pretty good about understanding a person's character and am good at reading people so If there was any doubt it could be damaging to this friendship that I highly value at all, then I wouldn't even consider talking about those things she doesn't already know.

There's two other women I've known since before the holidays that I've also spent countless hours with talking about everything and anything under the sun and we've grown close and have a nice connection. We've had some really personal conversations and shared tears as well. I have no desire whatsoever that either of them know anything other than what they do as things are perfect just the way they are.

Quotejust be sure of how you feel about telling her or not.

I know how I feel about it. I would like her to know that I care about her enough to share something like this with her and I know she would be appreciative. But then, there's all the downsides and drawbacks and things holding me back.

If I was a person to get upset, angry or depressed about things absolutely beyond my control, I would curse about being trans and how it somehow manages to be a factor that sticks it's nose into most everything in some insidious little way or another. The people that I have loved that have loved me and in all the relationships that I have had, no one has ever cared and no one I've ever let get really close to me has ever rejected me. It's how having trans be part of your life history and how it can be a barrier letting people get really close to you that you have to be careful about is what I would whine about. But I won't because that's just the way that it is.

Glad you chimed in!

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on August 20, 2018, 07:57:31 PM
Your question is a tough one to answer Lisa.

Yes it is and I appreciate that you can see that and understand where I am coming from.

QuoteLike you, every now and then I debate telling somebody about my past to connect a little deeper...

You get it. It's not about coming clean to clear one's conscience of some misdeed by omission, it's just to connect a little deeper. It is only with those I have had deeper connections with in life that I have told and that has always been a part of those deeper connections.

QuoteBut, then I remember how much of a blabbermouth my coworker can be at times, and I back away from the idea.

It's not that this friend is a blabbermouth per se but there are at least two people in her life she couldn't help herself not to tell. One would be her boyfriend. I've actually known him longer than her and he already knows more about me than any of the guys do as we've talked about a lot of unusual things, people, sexuality and politics, etc. He likes me because he says I think differently than other people and am aware of what's going on in the world. If it was just him and her, I wouldn't really mind so much. It's her other friend that wouldn't keep her mouth shut not by ill intention but because she's a dingbat. I would expect this from my friend and not find fault with her because of it. I know her well and the way she is. Undoubtedly, this is the overwhelming reason to not ever tell her and what the smart and thinking side of my brain that tells me what's best. It's that other side of my brain though that keeps poking me with a sharp stick but I think after reading all the responses and the things I've written and thought about it, that the sharp point is rounding off.

QuoteTelling a guy - he'd have to be really special for me to tell him.  Frankly, at age 55, dating is kind of sparse (not many 50-something guys in the dating pool [I prefer to date guys closer to my age]), so I don't think too much about that situation.

I've always been way more careful and selective in telling guys and just don't. Yeah, I'm old but it doesn't mean I'm dead yet. There's been 3 potential guys I've thought about sleeping with if such a thing were to happen. One of them is still potential and while the popular mindset of trans ruledom is to talk about things before they get sexual. WHY? I don't hook up randomly as I got that out of my system in my 20's and I have to get to know a guy and who is and what he is all about before I am even interested or attracted (although that first guy I had a crush on that has gone on to be a good friend was/is pretty hot!) As a part of someone getting to know me and having some sort of a relationship, I want them to know all of me including sexually before I know if we click that way or if it's going to go anywhere and if it's important enough to even bother saying anything.

Telling a women? (Huh?) - I'm on the radar of two and would actually consider or have thought about one of them! Yikes! She's made her intentions perfectly clear and as far as women go, she embodies everything I find physically beautiful and attractive in another woman and she is so sweet and sensual. If anything were to happen (extremely unlikely) I wouldn't tell her first either.

Which makes it even all the more curious why I've contemplated telling my friend? Usually got to be sleeping with me before I'm ready to disclose.

If anyone in my entire social network learns of my history the same risk exists that they could contaminate my social environment. In fact, anyone that knows my history is likely to do so but I don't live with some hugely massive fear or paranoia that my "big secret" is going to get out or that would drive me nuts. I just strongly prefer that it doesn't. It could happen. I would hate it and be pretty unhappy about and it has happened in the past and been crushing it but it wouldn't be the end of the world. Honestly, I'm surprised some drunk guy that didn't know me hasn't thought he clocked me and started sh!t talking. (I'm sure that's a nightmare I had at some point in my life?)As things are now if something like that happened, my guy friends would kick his ass for disrespecting their bar mom but if they all knew about my history, I'm not so sure about that? Naw, yeah they would. People that like me gonna like me.

Quotealso in the same boat as you to an extent

Yeah. Thanks, Ellen. Cheers!

[

Quote from: HappyMoni on August 20, 2018, 08:12:45 PM
Even though you are so used to life in non disclosure mode, I wonder if in the back of your mind, there is a little bit of tension created by having this life history that never gets discussed.

Well sure there is. It would probably be a little weird if anyone in my situation didn't feel this from time to time but I have a very, very long history with this.

There were no people to talk with this about when I was a kid. I met a lady 30 years older than me when I was in the hospital in 1977 having SRS and we corresponded via snail mail for a few years but then I buried my head is cisgenderland and talked about my history for the next nearly four decades with very few and very little until 3 years ago. That's when I accidentally met someone online by random chance that became a friend and forever a part of my narrative. She was young, just 20 but had grown up almost exactly like me other than she was able to suppress puberty and socially transition before going to high school. For the first time ever, I did talk about my history with someone that really and totally got it. It was enlightening and I learned so much from her. It helped me have a lot more self-acceptance and a better understanding of myself and it set me off on a multiyear quest to learn everything there was to know about trans stuff and the lives of other trans people in the modern era. Somewhat over a year ago, I joined this board which has become my outlet for relieving any sort of tension about not ever having my life history discussed... Of which having any at all is questionable.

QuoteIn your day to day life, you probably don't think much at all about being anything but a woman without the trans thought process.

Being of trans experience is not something that affects my day-to-day life and I don't think nor have I ever much thought about being something I am but it would be a mistake to think that every day, I don't think about or at least acknowledge I have a trans body or that there are trans things going on in the world that might somehow have influence over my life. Whether it's a pill or shot I have to take, plastic I have to shove in my vagina or some tweet from our Orange Overlord, "trans" always has been a part of my life in one way or another and always will be.

It's become part of trans ideology that once transition is complete and things settled down, you move on with life and never have to think about it again which if you think that's what's going to happen, you're living in LaLa land.

QuoteYou have this very close relationship with this young woman and maybe telling her might be your way of sharing yourself completely. I see that as kind of a natural thing.

Yes, I do see it as kind of a natural thing to do with people you have close relationships with. If I was to talk about getting married to someone that didn't know, I would get ragged on because I've seen it. People would wonder how you knew someone really loved you if they didn't know or that there would be a missing level of trust so most people can and do see the significance of disclosure in our most important relationships.  I find it a little curious and maybe a bit of a double standard when it comes to not understanding the significance of disclosure in a close relationship like the one I have with my woman friend. Women to woman bonds, friendships and relationships have all been equally as important to me as ones I've ever had with any man and probably more so?

QuoteThink about it, that forbidden fruit that hangs there, isn't it tempting at some point to take that bite. It's human nature.

Sorry, no. I do not think opening up and confiding from the heart to a dear friend as some great irresistible temptation too hard to resist.

QuoteMy thought on your course of action would be that if you tell her, doesn't that put a burden on her not to disclose your secret. If she can't talk to anyone and she is not a 'professional' non discloser as are you, then maybe it gets to the point of causing her distress.

Oh yes. Of great concern to me to me also and mentioned in first and I think one or more of my subsequent posts. I know how it is with this. I've learned by experience never to expect telling one person means just telling one person I've been to this rodeo before. This is the second highest ranking reason for keeping my mouth shut.

Quotealmost wonder if telling a complete stranger rather than her might satisfy the desire to disclose.

No, no, no, no!!! I do not have a desire to disclose. I honestly f'ing hate doing that and if I want to ramble on about my life, there's no better place than here to do that, right? It may actually have some small benefit to others where they might learn a bit about history how some things actually were in the dark ages but what I think most importantly I want people take away from my lifetime of experience from the things I might share here is that there were trans kids more than over 50 years ago, they had parents that didn't reject them and helped them and that some of us did make it out alive and are still around to tell the tale even if apparently we are rare AF?

Disclosure or having people know I'm one of them g'damn ->-bleeped-<-s is the last thing on earth I want people to know except when it comes to this one stupid girl that's weaved her ways through my walls and defenses.

QuoteI don't know Lisa, there seems to me to be something that you want to get out. After all, you are here at a trans website. It is not completely in your past even if your history as a woman is really long.

Newsflash. Being trans will never be "completely" in your past...ever. I don't know what you all are hoping for or if the popular narrative has misguided you? You may put a lot of things behind you: dysphoria, anxiety, depression and all the things that are crippling to your life and be completely happy and fulfilled but since this is a "post-op" room, if you've changed your body, "trans" is always going to be part of your life somewhere. Being a woman has nothing to do with it.

What originally brought me here? I was looking for information about hormones and to see if women from my era were having problems with their long ago performed surgeries and to find out what the latest and greatest was in clinical treatment and surgical standards. In other words, it was my trans body that I will always have is why I came here, not in some quest for community and a place to fit in or for support. Cis girls talk about their bodies and sex all the time. I talk about my body and sex right along with them too because like Geico, that's what we do but since my body is different from theirs because it didn't come from the factory the same way like theirs did, there are only things that someone who is female in the same or about the same way I am will understand or be able to relate to. There are some types of girl talk we can only have with the same type of girl. Capiche?

Seeing as those that started and had surgery and stuff 20 years ago begin to dwindle in numbers and those 30 years ago become increasingly uncommon while those from 40 years ago seem to number in single digits if I squint and look for them really hard and think creatively, I haven't really found a "like me" community here or many peers from my generation that are actively posting at least. Consider also that those I can mostly relate to are other trans youth like Julia and Aurorasky and I'm 40 years older than both of them so "fittin' in" ain't why I'm here or I'd be pretty disappointed.

Some of you knuckleheads here have kind of grown on me though and I'm still amused if not amazed by some of crazy things I read about. Getting feedback about telling my friend has been kind of handy actually and I'd like to say thanks to everyone that hasn't seen my walls of text and run for higher ground.

QuoteNotice, I am giving no real advice. I only hope to maybe give food for thought.  Can you let us know what you decide to do?

I greatly appreciate your food for thought. Thanks! If I do anything, It won't be rashly or impulsively. Hashing all this stuff out here should give some indication that I'm not going to fly off and do something stupid and I'll probably have to think about this and further assess things for weeks.

Quote from: zirconia on August 21, 2018, 01:10:16 AM
The one thing that does seem clear to me is that you love her dearly.

Thank you for this observation. If I didn't, none of this would matter.

Quote from: Dena on August 21, 2018, 01:51:44 AM
I am not sure I have an answer for you but I do have a question to ask yourself. In you posting I view you to be an honest person. This causes a conflict because your stealth life may make you feel your lying by omission and you want to come clean by removing all secrets between you.

Thank you, Dena but no, I am not conflicted that I'm lying by omission nor do I feel the need to "come clean" by purging my guts out to my young friend. Any guilt, conflict or remorse I may have ever had or felt about this or even if at times I have told untruths and outright fabrications is something I processed, dealt with and learned to address well before I had surgery when I was 22 so none of that has anything to do with me thinking about a conversation with her about it. If she were to ask me, I would answer completely and honestly. Besides that, she already knows almost everything about my life and my history so if she did know the trans part, it would only be the last 5% of the picture.

Quote...If your not comfortable coming out, then it's best not to do so. You are fully aware of what can happen and it's not really important she know if she isn't trans.

Okay but I'm not really sure why it would be more important she know if she was trans?

QuoteThe decision is yours but you have permission to keep your secret if that's what you want.

Thanks again but wow. Like I'm seeking absolution for whatever the hell I do? Understand your sentiment though and am glad that you have added to the discussion.

Quote from: KathyLauren on August 21, 2018, 08:18:23 AM
But I have to agree with some of the others who ask, what is to be gained?  Is relieving the burden of your secrecy worth the possible consequences to your friendships?  True, it will evaluate your friendships: the ones worth keeping will stay, and the others might leave.  A bit of social Darwinism.  Is that what you want?

Burden of secrecy, guilt by omission, etc. has been addressed and so not what this is about. What I want to remark on is "possible consequences to your friendship."

Here's what I think those might be:

She has stress from expectations of her keeping things strictly confidential putting her in a bad spot
Her inadvertently telling the world and me getting mad at her for it
Her falling asleep or committing suicide because I talked her ear off and she was bored to death
It would give her ammo to annoy me with private jokes and she would tease me for fun

What it would not do is:

Make her freak out
Make her reject me as a friend
Change how she feels about me as a person negatively

If you're talking about the relationship between her and I, it is not in need of evaluation nor do I consider her knowing to be a measure of it. She would not "leave" if I told her, and if there was even a hint in my mind that she would or that this would somehow be not something that would cause us to be only better and closer friends, it wouldn't even be something up for consideration.  She is not someone I have connected with superficially or not had intuition and insight into her heart and her spirit and who she is as a person.

If you're talking about an scenario where my telling her ends being the best damn juicy bar gossip in the last decade and acquaintances and people that don't know me well have to figure out if they're going to kill me or run me out of town on a rail, yeah, that's a possibility but I can't really be responsible for or worry about or own what other people think about me. I can think of a couple of guys that might be a little freaked out about it and maybe a few that might not be so casual about hugging me or putting their arm around me but I just ran through a mental list in my mind of at least a dozen guys I've become friends with that would still be friends with me. They may have a few questions and this puts everything about you up for their scrutiny and you probably won't ever be looked at the same but people that like me still gonna like me and at least some of the guys that would stick up and defend me in a heartbeat now still would. Brad, Logan, Keith, Jesse, Jeremy, Anthony, Rick, Jimmi and unquestionably my gf's bf, Sean would for sure. I'm pretty good at knowing people. At times my life has depended on it and while innocent and demure, I gots hella street smarts.

I'm happy you've taken the time to participate. Thank you!

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 21, 2018, 10:03:43 AM
You have given me much very good advice. Now I will try to return the favor.

Ah, my young padawan. The student becomes the master and the return of favor is greatly honored.

QuoteAll I will say is I think it would be a profound mistake to tell this person  No good will come of it..

Concise, direct and to the point but I wouldn't have expected anything less from you.  ;) Thank you for cutting right to the chase.

QuoteYou are not involved in a sexual relationship with this person which is the only circumstance in which you would be at all obligated to tell someone.

I touched on this earlier but what makes having a sexual relationship some ethereal obligation to tell someone? Says who(m)? I spoke to this somewhat way up yonder talking about "coming out" and probably again later when I mentioned I would rather get to know someone sexually before telling all the juicy details of my past. Predicated of course on this already being someone you knew well and there were feelings and trust (or if it was with a complete stranger you'd just met and were never expecting to ever see again.) (don't do that)

As long as you can have sexual relations and use your body the same as any other woman would, what exactly would you be coming out about? That you're something less or other? Eff that patriarchal, misogynistic bs that men are so delicate there feels might be hurt so we need to treat them special because we aren't "real" women and they will kill us which immediately puts down as something other. Why would I want to do this? Especially if I knew a man well enough and had spent enough time with to sus out how he might feel about such things. If someone likes you and is attracted to you as a woman, then just be one. Some want to make this more complicated than it is and I know there's more than one school of thought on this. There's potentially un-comfortableness involved at some point no matter how you play it. It's up to you and the situation to decide which way and when you play your hand is the bigger risk. Questions about your safety take highest priority on when you decide to tell over if you think it less of a problem to tell before or after.

Last thought on this... In these "rules", can someone clarify what constitutes a "sexual relationship"? Do we need Bill Clinton's advice? Does this involve making out? Are touched breasts a dividing line? Does manual or oral genital play count or does it just mean screwing the traditional PIV or anal way? I never got the trans handbook explaining exactly what is and what isn't allowed before humbling ourselves as second class goods.

Danger, safety and common sense are one thing. Blindly following these unwritten rules just because that's the law and it's what we are "obligated" to do doesn't exactly sit well with me because it doesn't automatically to apply to all situations or all people and I would say someone like you would definitely qualify as not all people.

Gods forbid should you and Tristan break up, but if you did, you'll probably go out in the world on your own at some point to see what's there and if you're anything like me when I was a young 20-something girl with a shiny new red Ferrari, you're gonna try different things to find out what works for you and you may even screw up and make mistakes. I sure did and it took me a while to learn what most natal girls do in high school about dating, boys and self-respect and stuff but play it by ear, be smart, know your intuition and what's in your heart without being beholden to rules probably written by somebody not anything at all like you.

QuoteIf your friend "accepts"  you or not the relationship will change. It doesn't matter how close you are, if you tell her your trans she will see you as less female or "not real".

Oh, I got that. It's something all of us know or feel about the differences in how we're seen by those that know and those that don't. The way it can change things can be different for men and women too. It makes people look for or see things they otherwise wouldn't have noticed or given a second thought about. They judge not only your gender or if your level of femininity meets their standards but your physical attributes as well are suddenly "not real". I don't like that either one bit but think back to your own experience of "coming out" (hate that) to Tristan. Did it completely change what he thought about you negatively? Did it create distance or did it make you closer? Being outed against your will by or with people you don't know or don't want to know, that instant change in their perception we  immediately pick up on can sting pretty sharply and it does make you feel awful but outing yourself on your own terms to someone special you care about can be special and an important part of taking a relationship further.

There's a lot of reasons and a lot of ways people can put us down or put us in a box and how much of it you can deal with it and how much you let them get away with this crap is up to you. Personally, being just a woman without any extra modifiers or adjectives is how I'd always rather roll but not every single person in the world that knows is always going to think you are a freak or think of you as something less.

Other people may only have these judgments about you initially but once you've just been yourself and they've gotten to see who you really are, all these things fade away and don't matter. What people you don't care about being in your life think about you, like I said earlier, is not under your control and it is not your responsibility or your problem . It's theirs, not yours.

I've not had much to say about the rest of your post about how the complications, pitfalls and dangers about disclosing to someone can turn into a real sh!tshow because I agree completely and know this myself to be true by more than one experience, however, extreme stress and worry about these things and avoiding living life or putting yourself out there to make connections because you are afraid of these things happening, takes a bigger toll than them actually happening sometimes.

QuoteI would very much hate to see you outed among your circle of friends.

Yeah, so would I but in doing all this writing and thinking of all the different scenarios, I've tried to imagine what my response and attitude would be if that were to happen but it would kind of depend on how it happened or how I had learned that it had happened.

Rumors go around and if they're about you, you're usually the last to know unless someone that knows you cares enough to fill you in or warn you. Even if I told my bartender friend and she was personally responsible for word getting out and said rumors were flying around, as much as she knows I would be very upset with her, she would be the very first one to come to me and tell me what was going and I know she would cry and be heartbroken about it and feel lower than dirt. She is that kind of person, full stop. I'd also like to think the 5 guys that know and like me the best would also step up and be in my corner.

So then what? Every time I go in there there's snickers and stares and huddled conversations and I know everybody is talking about me, then what do I do? Probably cry al lot in my pillow alone by myself a bit and maybe take one or two my usual 3 to 5 day long "weekend" nights off but then most likely I'd wear my most complimented outfit, do up my look and then proudly, confidently with my head held high and with a big FU attitude, march right in and take up a seat like I have been doing since Superbowl Sunday 2017. Go ahead, come at me bro. Guarantee ain't nobody gonna F with this bar mama. Yeah, like I'm such a badass but seriously, unless things get physical, I can hold my own in a battle of words and wit.

But let's be real for a minute. This joint is pretty low-brow and blue-collar and even if we aren't in the most progressive part of the country and don't have any LGBT discrimination protections, we're also not some uncivilized backwater in the deep south and while this place may be a little rough around the edges (and the interior and the patios!), it's also not somewhere I feel that would be particularly or inherently dangerous although I would certainly be more a little more alert and on guard. I know the people I hang out with would still hang out with me. My friends have been chosen wisely. I know if they did have questions or want to hear things straight from the horse's mouth, they would ask them respectfully and not be jerks about it. I know that all of the four regular bartenders are still going to like me and all I could ever do about the rumors would be to be nothing but pleased that I was so popular that I was the talk o' the town.

Alternatively, I could just walk away from this place and never go back but losing those friends that I haven't yet established let's get together somewhere else relationships with or don't have their numbers would be heartbreaking and I would feel defeated like the world had won. I'm enough of a fighter and stubborn enough and stupid enough to rise over this and not let this social crap win or destroy me. If I wasn't, I would have never made it out of high school. and certainly never made it as long as I have.

Yes, it is hard and different when people know and I can't say how much more than I've already said about how much I don't like this but I do have to live my life even when sometimes it ain't pretty.

QuoteCis people seem to think they have a duty to tell a guy a female he interacts with is trans. You know, so the perverted ->-bleeped-<- won't " trick" or seduce the poor straight guy thus "turning" him gay.

We've all heard this story, seen it in a movie and somewhere read this always happens and it seems to be a popular "how it is" perception within the trans community and there's certainly no way I can debunk this because I'm sure it has happened to some but geez! Hang out with grownups that are halfway civilized or educated and be thankful the world is more trans accepting and friendly than it's ever been (said by your ->-bleeped-<- granny from the 1970's!)

I'm glad you checked into the party, Julia. We haven't talked much lately but I'm glad to see you're doing well.

PS
Sucks about what happened with Tristan's mom. :(


____________________________________________________________________

Here's where I'm at with this and I am grateful for everyone's thought provoking comments helping me to get to this point.

I've tried to get this through my head:

1) Confiding in my friend is not a wise choice
2) Expecting discretion and confidentiality places an unfair burden of responsibility on her
3) Potential social damage by being inadvertently outed


Feelings that I still have about this:
1) I still have feelings about this
2) If I'm not going to tell her, I need to get over my feelings that I am limiting our friendship
3)This would bring us closer emotionally BUT I don't want to get too close
4) If my "big secret" gets out some other way and she hears about it, she'll be hurt I didn't tell her

As someone who hid for most of their life the joy of finally revealing my real identity has been so liberating and well worth any negativity. I did not reveal to my first wife and we ended up divorced. Luckily I found a better one four years later and she has been so supportive of me finding myself. I told her before we married 35 years ago and she never brought it up and when I revealed two years ago what I wanted to do she has allowed me to pursue my true identity. We still say I love you before we go to bed and I love you when we wake up. An interesting note, I have been taking spiro for twenty five years and it ruined all sexual impulses We deal with it with intimacy. I'ts your life, honor it. Most my friends, I have known for 50-60 years. Yes I'm that old. But I haven't lost any of them for revealing my secret. I have lost some for not supporting Trump. You might want to read through this before you decide. I know it answered many questions I had. Whatever you decide we will support you.  http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 21, 2018, 10:03:43 AM
You have given me much very good advice. Now I will try to return the favor. All I will say is I think it would be a profound mistake to tell this person.  No good will come of it. You are not involved in a sexual relationship with this person which is the only circumstance in which you would be at all obligated to tell someone. If your friend "accepts"  you or not the relationship will change. It doesn't matter how close you are, if you tell her your trans she will see you as less female or "not real". Also consider if you want your entire circle of friends to know your past. Even if this person accepts you and swears not to tell anyone you're trans she WILL tell everyone the 2 of you know. You have already said she enjoys gossiping. Finding out you're trans would be a very "juicy" piece of gossip.  People just can't help themselves, trust me. Unfortunately Tristan felt we were obligated to tell his family I was trans. It went fine and they had no problem with it. However his mother told a couple of her friends. I found this out when I was over there one day and one of her friends stopped by. She looked at me like I was an alien. I at first thought maybe it was because I'm albino but it became obvious when she said I was very small and that she thought I would be much bigger. Then she asked me if I had a period after " that surgery".

Tristan later asked her why she had told that woman I was trans and she said she was sorry and that it had "just slipped out". Yeah, ok. The whole thing caused me to dislike his mother and I absolutely will not go to her house or accept any further offers from her to go places with her unless there is just absolutely no way to get out of it. I refuse to be a freak show for her friends or anyone for that matter. That could be a possibility for you if you tell your friend about your past. People are unpredictable when it comes to how they will react to a trans person. I strongly advise you to keep your past to yourself. There is absolutely no good reason to share it with anyone. Think of it like a virus. If you tell just one person, that knowledge will spread and spread fast. Please consider this very carefully. I would very much hate to see you outed among your circle of friends. Also consider that once you tell someone about your past there is a very good chance that knowledge will be disclosed to the guys you're friends with. Cis people seem to think they have a duty to tell a guy a female he interacts with is trans. You know, so the perverted ->-bleeped-<- won't " trick" or seduce the poor straight guy thus "turning" him gay. People make me ill sometimes.

VERY good points Julia, and pretty much in line with my experience. 

In 2006, I made the mistake of telling an ex-coworker (she was fired 4 years later due to a long term attitude problem, that made it increasingly difficult to work with her) in private, to get her off of my back (I hoped by telling her I was a post-op TS, she would see that I had been through a lot, and wanted things to settle down, so "please quit constantly nagging me, to do this or that thing to better my life" [she was quick with "giving advice" in a not so nice manner, but very poor at taking advice]).  I regretted doing so within a short time.  My ex-coworker (whom I'd only worked with for a short line when I told her about myself) turned out to be a bit of a loudmouth, and while I did not see any indication that the average person at the place I work knew about my past, there was at least one indication that she told somebody else about my past - a lesbian ex-coworker of ours (no, she was not fired - she was bipolar, went off of her meds, and not being in the best of mental states, decided to quit, and stormed out the door; she never did come back to work [despite all of my boss' efforts to get her to come back]), who one day made the comment to me about how "people like us need to stick together" (I assume she meant in an LBGT sense).  I was a bit surprised to hear it.  For all I know Jen (the lesbian) told Jenny (the coworker, who I mentioned in an earlier post, is friends with a post-op FTM), since they are friends to this day (though not very close any more, since Jen has become a bit of a drifter, who does the carnie thing), and Jenny just hasn't mentioned it to me out of respect for my personal privacy, but I'm not about to ask Jenny about it, assuming she already knows - I made that kind of mistake back in 2000 a few months before my name change, when I was under the impression from what my boss had told me, that "everybody knew about my situation."  Figuring it would be no big deal ("everybody knows"), and due to the fact that my female coworkers wanted to see what I looked like, when I was dressed up a bit more feminine (in other words wearing a skirt and sandals instead of my typical work clothes of girl jeans, girl tee), took a vacation day, and stopped off to visit with my female coworkers (who meant no malice towards me - they supported me every step of my transition), while I was out running errands, wearing a khaki skirt, a tee, and my favorite pair of casual sandals.  BIG MISTAKE!!!  It turned out the most people did not know what was going on with me (just that something seemed to be happening to me), and it caused a ruckus to say the least.  I'm not going there again.

The above two incidents I mentioned have made me VERY hesitant about disclosing to others.  Lisa, think very very long, and very very hard before you consider disclosing your past to your friends.

Ellen

P.S. - Julia, the comment about cis-people seeming to feel it's their duty to tell a guy that he's having a relationship with a trans woman - I experienced that situation in a different way when I was still working at my old job (where everybody and his dog knew about my transition), where people had the annoying habit of acting like they were duty-bound to tell just about everyone (new employee, visitor to the company, etc.), that I was transsexual, despite the fact that it was my business to do so as I saw fit - not theirs.

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 22, 2018, 12:22:00 AM
Ah, my young padawan. The student becomes the master and the return of favor is greatly honored.

Concise, direct and to the point but I wouldn't have expected anything less from you.  ;) Thank you for cutting right to the chase.

I touched on this earlier but what makes having a sexual relationship some ethereal obligation to tell someone? Says who(m)? I spoke to this somewhat way up yonder talking about "coming out" and probably again later when I mentioned I would rather get to know someone sexually before telling all the juicy details of my past. Predicated of course on this already being someone you knew well and there were feelings and trust (or if it was with a complete stranger you'd just met and were never expecting to ever see again.) (don't do that)

As long as you can have sexual relations and use your body the same as any other woman would, what exactly would you be coming out about? That you're something less or other? Eff that patriarchal, misogynistic bs that men are so delicate there feels might be hurt so we need to treat them special because we aren't "real" women and they will kill us which immediately puts down as something other. Why would I want to do this? Especially if I knew a man well enough and had spent enough time with to sus out how he might feel about such things. If someone likes you and is attracted to you as a woman, then just be one. Some want to make this more complicated than it is and I know there's more than one school of thought on this. There's potentially un-comfortableness involved at some point no matter how you play it. It's up to you and the situation to decide which way and when you play your hand is the bigger risk. Questions about your safety take highest priority on when you decide to tell over if you think it less of a problem to tell before or after.

Last thought on this... In these "rules", can someone clarify what constitutes a "sexual relationship"? Do we need Bill Clinton's advice? Does this involve making out? Are touched breasts a dividing line? Does manual or oral genital play count or does it just mean screwing the traditional PIV or anal way? I never got the trans handbook explaining exactly what is and what isn't allowed before humbling ourselves as second class goods.

Danger, safety and common sense are one thing. Blindly following these unwritten rules just because that's the law and it's what we are "obligated" to do doesn't exactly sit well with me because it doesn't automatically to apply to all situations or all people and I would say someone like you would definitely qualify as not all people.

Gods forbid should you and Tristan break up, but if you did, you'll probably go out in the world on your own at some point to see what's there and if you're anything like me when I was a young 20-something girl with a shiny new red Ferrari, you're gonna try different things to find out what works for you and you may even screw up and make mistakes. I sure did and it took me a while to learn what most natal girls do in high school about dating, boys and self-respect and stuff but play it by ear, be smart, know your intuition and what's in your heart without being beholden to rules probably written by somebody not anything at all like you.

Oh, I got that. It's something all of us know or feel about the differences in how we're seen by those that know and those that don't. The way it can change things can be different for men and women too. It makes people look for or see things they otherwise wouldn't have noticed or given a second thought about. They judge not only your gender or if your level of femininity meets their standards but your physical attributes as well are suddenly "not real". I don't like that either one bit but think back to your own experience of "coming out" (hate that) to Tristan. Did it completely change what he thought about you negatively? Did it create distance or did it make you closer? Being outed against your will by or with people you don't know or don't want to know, that instant change in their perception we  immediately pick up on can sting pretty sharply and it does make you feel awful but outing yourself on your own terms to someone special you care about can be special and an important part of taking a relationship further.

There's a lot of reasons and a lot of ways people can put us down or put us in a box and how much of it you can deal with it and how much you let them get away with this crap is up to you. Personally, being just a woman without any extra modifiers or adjectives is how I'd always rather roll but not every single person in the world that knows is always going to think you are a freak or think of you as something less.

Other people may only have these judgments about you initially but once you've just been yourself and they've gotten to see who you really are, all these things fade away and don't matter. What people you don't care about being in your life think about you, like I said earlier, is not under your control and it is not your responsibility or your problem . It's theirs, not yours.

I've not had much to say about the rest of your post about how the complications, pitfalls and dangers about disclosing to someone can turn into a real sh!tshow because I agree completely and know this myself to be true by more than one experience, however, extreme stress and worry about these things and avoiding living life or putting yourself out there to make connections because you are afraid of these things happening, takes a bigger toll than them actually happening sometimes.

Yeah, so would I but in doing all this writing and thinking of all the different scenarios, I've tried to imagine what my response and attitude would be if that were to happen but it would kind of depend on how it happened or how I had learned that it had happened.

Rumors go around and if they're about you, you're usually the last to know unless someone that knows you cares enough to fill you in or warn you. Even if I told my bartender friend and she was personally responsible for word getting out and said rumors were flying around, as much as she knows I would be very upset with her, she would be the very first one to come to me and tell me what was going and I know she would cry and be heartbroken about it and feel lower than dirt. She is that kind of person, full stop. I'd also like to think the 5 guys that know and like me the best would also step up and be in my corner.

So then what? Every time I go in there there's snickers and stares and huddled conversations and I know everybody is talking about me, then what do I do? Probably cry al lot in my pillow alone by myself a bit and maybe take one or two my usual 3 to 5 day long "weekend" nights off but then most likely I'd wear my most complimented outfit, do up my look and then proudly, confidently with my head held high and with a big FU attitude, march right in and take up a seat like I have been doing since Superbowl Sunday 2017. Go ahead, come at me bro. Guarantee ain't nobody gonna F with this bar mama. Yeah, like I'm such a badass but seriously, unless things get physical, I can hold my own in a battle of words and wit.

But let's be real for a minute. This joint is pretty low-brow and blue-collar and even if we aren't in the most progressive part of the country and don't have any LGBT discrimination protections, we're also not some uncivilized backwater in the deep south and while this place may be a little rough around the edges (and the interior and the patios!), it's also not somewhere I feel that would be particularly or inherently dangerous although I would certainly be more a little more alert and on guard. I know the people I hang out with would still hang out with me. My friends have been chosen wisely. I know if they did have questions or want to hear things straight from the horse's mouth, they would ask them respectfully and not be jerks about it. I know that all of the four regular bartenders are still going to like me and all I could ever do about the rumors would be to be nothing but pleased that I was so popular that I was the talk o' the town.

Alternatively, I could just walk away from this place and never go back but losing those friends that I haven't yet established let's get together somewhere else relationships with or don't have their numbers would be heartbreaking and I would feel defeated like the world had won. I'm enough of a fighter and stubborn enough and stupid enough to rise over this and not let this social crap win or destroy me. If I wasn't, I would have never made it out of high school. and certainly never made it as long as I have.

Yes, it is hard and different when people know and I can't say how much more than I've already said about how much I don't like this but I do have to live my life even when sometimes it ain't pretty.

We've all heard this story, seen it in a movie and somewhere read this always happens and it seems to be a popular "how it is" perception within the trans community and there's certainly no way I can debunk this because I'm sure it has happened to some but geez! Hang out with grownups that are halfway civilized or educated and be thankful the world is more trans accepting and friendly than it's ever been (said by your ->-bleeped-<- granny from the 1970's!)

I'm glad you checked into the party, Julia. We haven't talked much lately but I'm glad to see you're doing well.

PS
Sucks about what happened with Tristan's mom. :(


____________________________________________________________________

Here's where I'm at with this and I am grateful for everyone's thought provoking comments helping me to get to this point.

I've tried to get this through my head:

1) Confiding in my friend is not a wise choice
2) Expecting discretion and confidentiality places an unfair burden of responsibility on her
3) Potential social damage by being inadvertently outed


Feelings that I still have about this:
1) I still have feelings about this
2) If I'm not going to tell her, I need to get over my feelings that I am limiting our friendship
3)This would bring us closer emotionally BUT I don't want to get too close
4) If my "big secret" gets out some other way and she hears about it, she'll be hurt I didn't tell her

Being involved sexually with someone is the only "possible"  good reason I can think of for telling someone. I totally HATED telling Tristan but I hadn't had SRS at that time so I had no choice. He started wanting to do more than me just giving him oral so I had to explain things to him. I probably would have told him at some point but if I had already had surgery and could have had normal sex with him I know for sure if I did tell him it would have been at a later point in our relationship. As it was we had been dating for almost 2 months when I told him and I know the fact he had that long to get to know me helped him accept the whole thing. I asked him once to tell me honestly if he would have asked me out if he had known I was trans from the start and he said no he would not have. Until he met me he really didn't know anything about transwomen except what he knew from the media so of course he had misconceptions.

As for telling anyone else, future friends for example, I wouldn't. The way I see it being born trans is an awful birth defect I had corrected. I am not obligated to share that or any other medical condition I may have with anyone. The way I see it, if you had been born with a tail and had it surgically removed, would you tell your friends? " oh, by the way I was born with a tail".  And until I was about 6 years old my brother had me convinced I actually had been born with a tail! He told me they removed it after I was born before I came home from the hospital and not to ever ask my dad about it because it made him sad. Lol! Even as a child Tyler's favorite past time was messing with me.

As for people considering you less female or not real I only know about my own experiences. I had a friend who told me she fully accepted me as female,  blah, blah. That all went out the window when she got jealous over some guy flirting with me when we were at the mall. She told me it wasn't right that all these guys always flirted with me because I wasn't even "really a girl". She also got jealous because my dad pays for my phone and car insurance. She said " you're just a spoiled daddy's girl, excuse me, daddy's BOY"!  My uncle always told me I would never be a real woman and if I had surgery I would just be a boy wearing a " female costume" I could never take off. And my mother has told me a couple of times that I need to prepare for the fact that at some point Tristan will want children and when that happens he's going to dump me for a "real" girl who can give them to him. If my own family has that attitude I hold out little hope any future friends would ever accept me as fully female and I would never tell them I was trans.

As for the need of cis people to out a transwoman to any guy she's with, this has happened to me twice. Both times it involved people who knew me from school. Once at the mall this hateful girl I went to school with and 2 of her friends felt the need to approach us to inform Tristan that I " used to be a guy". Tristan told her he was aware I was transgender and to "piss off". Then she said " well if you want to be with THAT I guess you're a ->-bleeped-<- then".  He said " you're pretty uppity for a swamp donkey aren't you"? That made her friends start laughing and embarrassed her so she scampered away.  And once when we were in line at the movies this guy I went to school with came up to us and asked Tristan if he knew I was really "a dude". Tristan said " she's not a dude she's a transwoman.  We can go outside if you have anything else you want to say mate". The guy said he was just trying to do Tristan a "solid" by letting him know I was trans and that he didn't want any trouble. Thankfully these incidents turned out ok but they could easily have been disastrous. Cis people just think they have an obligation to out a transwoman to guys. This seems especially true among guys. They think they are doing someone a big favor by telling him the girl he's with is trans.

I'm glad you decided not to tell your friend. I do understand you wanting to share your past with her but in my opinion the possible disastrous result isn't worth the risk.

Quote from: DawnOday on August 22, 2018, 12:50:43 AM
As someone who hid for most of their life the joy of finally revealing my real identity has been so liberating and well worth any negativity.

I can only visualize myself in your shoes but it isn't hard to imagine how powerful and as you said liberating it was letting the hidden side of you finally see the light of day. The strength that some of you have keeping what you know in your heart bottled up for so long continues to amaze me and then to be able risk everything you've built throughout so many years to live as your best self is certainly more that I think I could have ever done.

I am not hiding my "real identity"! I've never had alternate identities. Beyond the sanctuary of my home and family life, which means school when you're a kid, this had always made things problematic and distressing. At 15, with everyone just assuming I was gay, to quickly summarize, it was like "hey mom and dad, I'm a girl" and they were like "no ->-bleeped-<-e Sherlock".

Already coming from the tipping point where strangers weren't quite sure if I was a boy or a girl and getting to the place I was less confusingly just a girl didn't take much more than a few subtle cues here and there. At 16/17, everywhere except school, I was seen and affirmed as just a regular girl. A little plain maybe but I had long pretty blonde hair and others just picked up on my girl vibe, or something? At school, I was outwardly seen as that same girl, same look, same everything, no alternate identity or personality because I'd never had one but... I was known by a boy's name and it was a challenging. By the time I graduated, I'd been on HRT for a year and basically in transition for three and a quick documentation change marked the end of my social transition. That was 45 years ago. SRS came a few years later in 1977 which was a quick, discrete blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things.

From the time I was 18 and for my entire adult life, I've been seen by the world as a cisgender female with very few knowing I wasn't born that way or I have lived in stealth if that's an easier concept to absorb? People only know this about me if I tell them or they hear it from someone else I've told which is a key theme in the topic of this thread.

Disclosing my history is not a matter of revealing my real identity. That's been on display for the whole world to see my entire life and there is absolutely no joy for me in people knowing that I wasn't born with a female body. That's my opposite of joy. What all this has been about is for reasons of building trust and emotional intimacy with a close friend, I had begun to have thoughts about telling her that I wasn't female by birth. Certainly there are parallels to your situation. Disclosure takes both of us from normal to trans but for you this is a good thing. For me, it isn't. Why would it be?

Quote...I told her before we married 35 years ago and she never brought it up and when I revealed two years ago what I wanted to do she has allowed me to pursue my true identity. We still say I love you before we go to bed and I love you when we wake up.

That's amazing and very sweet!

QuoteYou might want to read through this before you decide. I know it answered many questions I had. Whatever you decide we will support you.  http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

Glad you found something that fits. I am familiar with Vitale's theories. Julia and I would be G1s under this paradigm. We would be HSTS's under Blanchard's and if you want to go there, a Benjamin Scale type VI.

Disclaimer - this thread is TLDR.

I'm sure there are many very good responses and replies.  Here's my take.  Don't do it.  Full stop.

I've seen relationships ruined, ended or irrevocably changed from this very thing, time and time again.  It's simply a need to know thing - and they really don't.  This isn't the enlightened age popularized in the media - the real world is much harsher.  It's all risk and very little reward.

One can argue that being woodworked is closeted (like stealth is somehow bad?) - but that's really stupid when you're just being who you are without running all over broadcasting that you had some previous medical condition.  My very best friend has never once told me of her bout(s) with cancer.  I found out through acquaintances.     Not quite the same thing but it's not relevant and she doesn't wish to be perceived as "that cancer patient".  I respect that.

OK, let flip it.  What would any of us think if someone we knew for years suddenly revealed having transitioned?  Yea, we're all super accepting, but you can't tell me it wouldn't change your fundamental perception of this person.  Instead of "there's goes Bob or Mary"  it instantly becomes - "there's goes Bob* or Mary*".  With that little tiny caveat.  And that's to the most accepting people in the world.  Imagine what the other 99.9% think. 

It's always YMMV, and I didn't transition super early, but having married going on 18 years ago and moved many times (thanks to headhunters) my life is complete and intact, but also compartmentalized - and I can't ever image any scenario where I would want to break down those old walls.  My husband knew before we married - my 1/2 of the family knows (his doesn't) and a very few old friends or acquaintances scattered in different states.  It's just not an announcement that even occurs to me to blurt out no matter how close the friend is.  The closer and longer the friend has been - I think the higher the risk they will feel lied to and betrayed - without even yet getting to processing TSity.

Lisa. Thanks for the kind comments.
One of the big advantages I have over the younger members is that I don't have to worry about making a living. Because of the times and not really wanting to go to war (Vietnam) I got a decent education so I didn't have to work low paying jobs. My first job paid $4 an hour while everyone else was getting $1.65. I thought I was on top of the world. Unfortunately my education was in fire science and then I could not pass the physical so I went on to Materials Management and computer systems. Without having to worry about being found out. Transgender was not even a word until the mid 80's. I was a transvestite, a totally vile term. By then the reason for flunking the physical reared its ugly head and I have been dealing with it since then. I wish I had known all that was available in the 70's but at the time I was just trying to show my manhood and having a terrible time doing it. I don't have a femme bone in my body ahh, but my brain is a different story. I have always sought relief from daily life by crossdressing. So for a few hours each evening I had some private time.                                                                                          I admire the courage of the younger generation. I also admire the desire to take the stigma off of being Transgender. In my state the results of that activity has shown great results and our rights are written into the state law. I have a couple of grand daughters and I want them to be whomever they want to be. As most of us have found. We had no choice.

Quote from Lisa
"Seeing as those that started and had surgery and stuff 20 years ago begin to dwindle in numbers and those 30 years ago become increasingly uncommon while those from 40 years ago seem to number in single digits if I squint and look for them really hard and think creatively, I haven't really found a "like me" community here or many peers from my generation that are actively posting at least. Consider also that those I can mostly relate to are other trans youth like Julia and Aurorasky and I'm 40 years older than both of them so "fittin' in" ain't why I'm here or I'd be pretty disappointed.

Some of you knuckleheads here have kind of grown on me though and I'm still amused if not amazed by some of crazy things I read about. Getting feedback about telling my friend has been kind of handy actually and I'd like to say thanks to everyone that hasn't seen my walls of text and run for higher ground." 


   Lisa I get it as far as you not relating to most on this sight. I respect our differences. I enjoy your perspective and am in awe at your staying power at the keyboard. lol I would say, to use an animal analogy, that all of us here are birds. You might be a swan and me a yellow breasted, knuckleheaded sap sucker, but we have a commonality of being birds. As much as we are different, we do share some aspects as well.
   Oh, I agree, that I will always be a trans woman. I have no illusions of that ever not being a part of me. Thank you for responding.
Moni

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on August 22, 2018, 05:56:02 AM
P.S. - Julia, the comment about cis-people seeming to feel it's their duty to tell a guy that he's having a relationship with a trans woman

Back over 20 years ago when I was still doing electrolysis I asked my electrologist if she would tell a male relative or close friend that they were dating  pot-op if the post-op had not revealed...

She said she would... and she was very trans friendly and was good friends with a number of her TS clients... so it most definitely is (or was) a real phenomenon.

Quote
- I experienced that situation in a different way when I was still working at my old job (where everybody and his dog knew about my transition), where people had the annoying habit of acting like they were duty-bound to tell just about everyone (new employee, visitor to the company, etc.), that I was transsexual, despite the fact that it was my business to do so as I saw fit - not theirs.

I lived through that... and I stayed on my transition job for 10 years post transition...

Anyway we probably should stay on topic as I'm sure this aspect of the conversation won't help Lisa.

- karen

I have a couple of replies to some of the more recent comments I haven't posted yet because I'm trying to whittle them down to a manageable level because they're more ridiculous walls of text but in the mean time, I've been asked by those who were interested to keep things up to date so this wall of text is the latest and maybe the last of it?

Did my hair, stepped up the look a bit and tried to put things together in a way other than how I'd put them together in the last couple of weeks. I can go three nights a weekend for a month without wearing the same things together then it becomes a question of rotating things in different ways. It's fun to have a reason to get cleaned up and make a bit of an effort. It's hot where I live, damned hot so it's usually just shorts and a light top with lots of skin and flip flops . Classy but this place ain't the Ritz! I do throw a couple casual dresses in the mix every three weeks or once a month or so and glam it up a bit sometimes just for the heck of it and may even wear heals on occasion but I'm comfortable hanging out at my neighborhood pub in every different way depending on my mood and that's one thing that's great about it.

I've worn this a few times and get compliments. It's one of my favorites but it feels weird not wearing a bra and doesn't really do a lot for my gravity enhanced old lady bresticles. This is from a couple weeks ago, I was somewhat intoxicated when I took it and I posted it recently in another thread somewhere but sorry, I don't do faces online anywhere. Sorry to wander so off topic too.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dooberville.com%2FPhotos%2F63%26amp%3BMe.png&hash=eb71e94d55b437100aeeab0327e69a9b5ef18f97)

So I walk in tonight at 10:30 and the place is packed. My special friend was behind the bar and working her butt off. There was nowhere to sit at the bar or at any of the tables in the bar area and people were standing around. I only recognized three faces that gave me a nod and there were only three other women in the whole place and I felt a bit awkward so I got a beer and ducked outside to the patio to be by myself a bit and chill. A bit later I went in for a refill and to order food before the kitchen closed at midnight and most of the people were gone. None of my normal hang out friends were there. By 12:15, the only people left in the whole place were my bartender friend and I so we talked and then talked some more. Well into the conversation, she brought up that last Sunday night,  I had mentioned there were things I was thinking I wanted to talk about with her and she asked me what they were. I was hoping she would just forget.

She didn't.

In all lightheartedness, with a laugh and a smile, I looked her straight in the eye and told her that I had changed my mind! She teasingly pried a little and I told her I talked it over with a friend that convinced me some things are better left unsaid. She reached across the bar, pinched me really hard and called me an a$$hole but it was never mentioned again and we continued on with just our regular chatty girl talk. I may have left her with a little more mystery than I would have preferred but I don't think she'll bring it up again?

The last hour found the two of us sitting outside on the patio sharing a bowl of nature's bounty. This was the most pleasant and comfortable outside evening we've had in months where some nights it's still been 100 degrees at 1:00 AM and quite drippy so with cool mid 80's temps, a light breeze and a lightning show from distant monsoon storms, we just sat and talked for an hour with both of us being even more chatty thanks to our green friend.

We talked about living alone and struggling to make ends meet and getting lonely. We talked about the relationship with her boyfriend that I've known longer than she has. She's really in love with him but neither of them have said it yet but I can tell she's really happy. She talked about her relationship with her parents and her mother particularly. I talked about the relationship I had with my folks and particularly my mom too. We were both renegades. I found out she was on birth control and sexually active at 15 but that her and birth control pills don't get along too well and she talked about her periods, pimples and boobs. I talked about how I didn't date at all in high school. She already knew I had "social problems" and struggled to even stay in school but not the specifics of what they were but how that I was, putting it politely, somewhat of a tart after I graduated and then on through my 20's until I met my husband. There's not much I haven't shared about my life except the unmentioned details.

Of course, we talked bar gossip and how my slutty friend Jennifer had hooked up with the bar's man whore Jeremy last weekend and how they were perfect for each other. Let them share their STI's between them we joked! We can be pretty awful and we were but I love it! We talked about a guy I spent four months getting close to, to the point I was willing to share my body with him but then he didn't think he was ready to be involved which was all kind of a frustrating and confusing. She didn't understand what his problem was either and said he'd be damned lucky to have somebody like me. She asked me how I got into the line of work that I do and I gave her my whole occupational history from the time I scrounged around when I was 18 doing babysitting and housekeeping to the time I got my first real job in an office at 19 and then the progression of my work life up until what I do today. She's genuinely interested in knowing about my life and sharing parts of hers she says she doesn't talk about with anyone because she says she knows I won't be judgmental.

She made one comment I haven't quite processed. I mentioned how people seem to want to talk to me and tell me things like I'm their therapist or something and she said that everyone has noticed my "gentle strength" and that everybody there likes me. I playfully asked her if she was just fishing for a big tip? She went on to say she thinks it's because people sense that I'm really comfortable with myself and who I am and again that thing about what a real and  grounded, down to earth of a person I am. Of course, she did get a bit tip! These unsolicited compliments aren't cheap, you know! :)

We closed down the bar, locked up and went out together. She hugged me, kissed me, said she loves me and told me it's great having me around and how it's so nice to have a friend she can open up to about things. I said yeah.

When our mutual admiration party was over, we left it at see ya tomorrow!

I came home a little high, a bit tipsy and with a warm and happy feeling just because she makes me feel good and I love the connection we have and when we get to hang out. She is such a real person too. In my heart, I still want to tell her and still may at some future point in time but for now anyway, have resolved to just keep things to myself. Y'all have convinced me that is for the best and on an intellectual level at least, I have to agree. Everyone's feedback has been appreciated.

Sorry again for my "keyboard problem". I think I need therapy? :)

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 25, 2018, 11:04:20 AMIn my heart, I still want to tell her and still may at some future point in time but for now anyway, have resolved to just keep things to myself. Y'all have convinced me that is for the best and on an intellectual level at least, I have to agree. Everyone's feedback has been appreciated.

That hardest things for me to deal with are those that intellectually I know it would be best if I did not do, but emotionally I feel a strong need too.

That is not an easy place for me to be... In the long run sometimes eventually  emotion wins, and other times not - but always only with a long internal struggle.

I think it's good thing you did not share for now... but if in say 6 months or a  year from now you are still feeling a strong need to tell her, then you probably revaluate things.

- karen