just from my life experiences I thought most people were not necessarily pro-trans but at least indifferent about us. That changed today. Hard.
I put a post on twitter on a Sky News tweet about someone who was saying transgender women are still men.
The response I got was an explosion of venom and hate.
I simply said that this person should actually do some research into how trans people feel before making comments like that
I received a wide variety of responses, some abusive "you ARE a man in a dress" a few deliberate insults in the third person "HE doesn't know what HE is talking about" a few disparaging research by saying "how can the poster know how you feel?" (I suggested they could research and was met with mockery) and a few others who just say "you're not a woman because you have a penis"
one person tried to explain to them calmly but was heckled away.
today I realised the world hates us and it'd driving me further away from seeking help
I am sorry that happened to you, Katie.
I don't think that the whole world hates us. Certain populations do. So the key to avoiding that kind of reaction is to avoid those people.
Social media is a great place for trolls to hang out, because the consequences of trolling are nonexistent. I don't do Twitter, so I don't know what its privacy/security settings are like, but on Facebook, my page is friends-only. The only things I make available to "public" are pretty nature pictures. Only my friends could troll me, and they would instantly be un-friended.
The same works in real life. There are places where it is safe to be identifiably trans and places where it is not safe. As much as possible, avoid the unsafe places. In some cases, that may involve moving.
Yeah really sorry you faced that as well. The world doesn't hate us. A big percentage of the world has never known us or understood us and sometimes that makes them feel uncomfortable, but so does a big part of the world and much of the younger demographic support us.
Kathy is right, social media trolls - troll for opportunities to upset people and people on the margins are their easiest targets.
Quote from: MissKatie on September 26, 2018, 03:41:47 PM
just from my life experiences I thought most people were not necessarily pro-trans but at least indifferent about us. That changed today. Hard.
I put a post on twitter on a Sky News tweet about someone who was saying transgender women are still men.
The response I got was an explosion of venom and hate.
I simply said that this person should actually do some research into how trans people feel before making comments like that
I received a wide variety of responses, some abusive "you ARE a man in a dress" a few deliberate insults in the third person "HE doesn't know what HE is talking about" a few disparaging research by saying "how can the poster know how you feel?" (I suggested they could research and was met with mockery) and a few others who just say "you're not a woman because you have a penis"
one person tried to explain to them calmly but was heckled away.
today I realised the world hates us and it'd driving me further away from seeking help
It's been my experience that you were right with your first point. Most people
are indifferent. The trouble is, those that aren't, are usually also the loudest and do the most to make themselves heard. No moreso than online. People feel they can say whatever they like online because they have a blanket of anonymity.
It's way, WAY different saying something from behind your keyboard, where no one knows you, to looking someone in the eye and saying the same thing.
Outside of the internet, you'd be surprised how many people have enough going on in their lives to actually care one way or the other what other people have going on in theirs. :)
I deal with these people every day. I feel I have a duty to challenge their hate and not let them get away with being unchallenged. It takes a good hour of my time in the morning challenging the alt-right. It does give you the impression that they represent the entire world because they've been kicked off of social media and have invaded the news comment sections with their vile opinions. They are almost all uneducated sad lonely old men (although quite a few are state sponsored Russian trolls too). They get worked up over the slightest thing that doesn't even affect their lives in any shape or form... and they have the nerve to call us snowflakes. Their disrespect for liberalism, the core of Western philosophy would make those who died in WWII fighting fascism turn in their graves... and they have the audacity to use those very people to support their neo-fascist ideology. They are the scum of the internet. And, sadly, my Dad is one them.
Do not take it to heart... they do not represent society as a whole. If you deal with a certain group of people daily, it warps your view of society as a whole.
And to be fair, it doesn't help when you have a popular trans YouTube star saying, 'The reality is, no matter how much you deny, transition, take hormones, wear clothing, wear makeup, have surgeries, whatever, trans people are, and will always be the sex they were born as.' - Autumn Asphodel
As the scientific evidence social experience affirm not only our right to exist as we are but that we contribute a lot to our culture (including the downfall of toxic masculinity), many people find they support us (and even vote for us!). Most people remain indifferent because of the lack of education in our schools, appropriate representation in the media and a simple lack of personal experience. Like racism, the only way we're going to begin to solve the problem is by taking an aggressive approach to educating people and letting them experience us naturally in society (let us live openly, use the bathroom, do our work, etc).
However, as we begin to make headway in these things, the relatively small and violent population of toxic haters feel threatened and spend their self-hating days striking out at us like trapped animals. Our supporters and even those indifferent to our specific cause need to learn how to shut those people down simply by virtue of their being disruptive, uncivil and disturbing the peace. While these are positive times, they are also terribly dangerous times, and we need aggressive outreach to make sure we get the indifferent folks up to speed and on the right side of a peaceful society.
When I see someone accosting anyone in a bathroom, as we recently saw on video from a Republican candidate, people need to shut that person down regardless of who they are accosting. I feel like if that person was accosting a child or an elderly person or even another republican candidate, people would have stepped in to stop it. But because the victim was trans the bystanders seemed unable to act. That's where educating the indifferent folks comes into play. Society needs to get better at shutting down bullies regardless of who they're bullying. No one should be indifferent to that.
Thanks for the post and the replies were all great, and thanks for the opportunity to put in my two cents! Blessings!
I may have a skewed perception of things because of where I live, but based on things people have said in front of me (without knowing I'm trans), I've gotten the impression that most people don't like trans women, but they're polite enough that they only say mean things about them behind their backs. I've also gotten the impression that people in general are indifferent to trans men, so at least half of us don't have to deal with quite as much active hate as the rest.
On the bright side, things do seem to be getting better (as others have said, younger generations are more tolerant of us), so hopefully that positive trend will continue.
thank you for the replies all :)
there's some great points there.
I feel my main worry is that I am not very strong mentally and always been unhappy with how I look so the slightest insult can send me spiraling into sadness.
I shoudnt have to 'toughen up' to be able to go outside in a dress
Hello Miss Katie and... Welcome aboard little sister!!!
There was a thread in another area of the forum today that parallels this one in more than a few meaningful ways ... I posted a few thoughts there that may be of help to your current sorting through of how others may or may not see you... or see us, as a group... This subject... how others see us is hugely important and I hope you find some value in what I wrote...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,241148.0/topicseen.html
There are so many sides to this and I am happy to offer you all I can as far as perspective because, in my opinion... for whatever it is worth, there is nothing ultimately more important than living a life that expresses the truth of who are... living in any other way, robs us of true connection to others and to life itself...
You do not need to toughen up if you are not tough... but, in time, many of us discover that showing our true face to the world is the easier path than hiding ourself away for even one more minute...
All good things to you as you explore the road ahead
Onward we go brave little sister
Ashley Marie 💕🌺
People like that will eventually be seen as the gender equivalent of those who used to order African-Americans to use certain drinking fountains/restrooms, and sit at the back of buses - in other words, primitive.
It is actually the minority that hate trans people. Most just do not care one way or the other, and there are more that will tell haters to mind their own business. The internet trolls are part of that minority, and enjoy hiding behind the anonimity of their screens.
When Texas was considering a bathroom bill, our local news posted about it on Facebook. Trolls were shut down, and I got plenty of likes on my posts regarding it. Of course, I never mentioned I am trans, because it's nobody else's business.
Stay off of Twitter. You will be healthier and happier. Twitter is the home of Russian trolls, bots and Trump supporters. Nice girls don't go to that part of town.
Hugs, Carly
Quote from: CarlyMcx on September 26, 2018, 10:26:21 PM
Stay off of Twitter. You will be healthier and happier. Twitter is the home of Russian trolls, bots and Trump supporters. Nice girls don't go to that part of town.
Hugs, Carly
Oh there's a million lovely wonderful supportive trans people and allies on twitter and I like it.
It was just a throwaway comment on a Sky News tweet :)
I agree that there are people that hate us and others that are indifferent and some that are indifferent but hate us behind the back. There is a lot more acceptance now that when I was younger which thank God for times are changing and things are getting better. I still struggle with how people react to me. Sometimes you can see on their face that they are uncomfortable and that comes from some that say they are more accepting. I guess that is why are skin is stronger than most. I just try and push on. Don't give up on yourself, which I know is easier said than done.
Julie
My real life transition experience has been nothing but positive. People don't care what you look like usually. They are wrapped up in their own little world. Those that do and try and put you down are probably threatened by difference and these are the keyboard warriors you see on social media. Ignore them their drivel means nothing.
It is difficult because my boss at work keeps joking to us "men" come along ladies or lady boys.
Please don't think he's being mean, he's just messing.
.however I think simultaneously 'they know' and 'i wish'
Quote from: MissKatie on September 27, 2018, 03:04:29 AM
It is difficult because my boss at work keeps joking to us "men" come along ladies or lady boys.
Please don't think he's being mean, he's just messing.
.however I think simultaneously 'they know' and 'i wish'
I used to work for an insurance company under a district mgnr. who had transitioned a few years before I started working there. She was 2 steps under the CEO and one of the most powerful women I ever had the pleasure of meeting. I was witness both to the respect she commanded over all of us and the crude jokes from the un-evolved after she was out of earshot as I was still repressed. VERY repressed. Had no clue I was trans too. I stood up for her nevertheless the first time I heard those things and was laughed at for attempting even a modicum civility in regard.
I used it as a learning experience. I knew exactly to whom I needn't pay any attention.
There were 400 employees in our office. I only needed to avoid about 7 of them (at least for that reason) as everyone else thought nothing of the circumstance at all.
Every time I see a comment board overrun by the trolls I think of that fact. "This represents the few where most would disagree. Nothing to see here."
The only other thing I would add, however is that it is those few who with enough hate in their lives, may be the one's who would turn violent. IRL avoid them at all costs.
Be safe and
live life. It all we can do.
<3
Actually yes - a lot of people are living in a sort of bubble, a "safe space". They have no idea what's waiting for them out there if they spend all their time in such a space.
But as mentioned, much of this is a backlash among people who otherwise wouldn't have even bothered to chime in - apparently many are angry because people are teaching their kids about this in schools, or they are seeing an explosion of pronoun issues, bathroom issues and so on that never used to be mentioned at all. They perceive the sudden high profile of trans people in the media as propagandizing and that we are a "protected status" now, and feel that if they don't want to acknowledge our lifestyle or pronouns then they will be branded bigots, fired, etc. In other words that our movement - which they could usually care less about - is now being literally forced upon them and their kids.
I do not spend time in safe spaces because I like to know exactly what's out there waiting for me, and how its mind works.
Currently there are many supportive people, but there are problems with our movement for rights having been co-opted in some cases by people who are trying to push a different sort of agenda on the rest of society. I.e. the one where gender is completely broken down and we don't acknowledge it at all, or we remove the use of biological sex on forms or in the classroom or even try to remove it from science discussions, or we teach children they can choose their own genders and so on. That is not the same agenda as one that is fighting for the rights of trans people to be treated equally to all other people and to be left alone. It appears to be one that wants to now dictate to the rest of society how they must think about gender, not how we are allowed to express it in our own lives. People are naturally resistant and unhappy about this, and we will get the flak.
I spend a lot of time explaining to endless people what transsexualism actually is because most are woefully uninformed, and are parroting things they heard from a scaremonger. But there are legitimate points of worry I see among them. For example, children being asked to decide their own genders in school and possibly seek gender treatment. Making services available to trans kids is one thing - asking every single one of them to question themselves at the ages of four or five is quite another, and I too would be concerned about what exactly is being taught to my child. That's what's being proposed for a Scottish high school apparently (this was all over the media in my country recently) and if approved more schools with more than likely follow. This has some parents' hackles up, in a population already now highly sensitized to "trans issues" in the media. I would also be concerned about just how easy transitional treatment is for a young impressionable child to simply walk into, and there have been pushes in the media trying to get treatment much easier to access. I am of the belief that while it should not be restricted, it should not be something handed out like candy either. There should be a process and a proper psychological analysis involved to determine this is not just a children's phase. These are some of the concerns these people have, as well as the idea that they must ditch their thinking about the biological sexes and now adopt some new form of thinking.
As always there is a price to be paid for being high profile and having our issues thrust to the cutting edge of such a politically polarized world, whether we wanted them to be or not. Our issues have been very much politicized, and used as political ammo. What you are seeing when someone refuses to acknowledge your gender online or says "men are not women" and stuff like that, is now the only way many of those people feel like they can rebel against a push to force them to accept all these new words and labels. I do understand their concerns and that had this not become another political media battleground, we would likely have had a quieter time of it. Some prefer that it is a battle ground... but I know that an idea never gets acceptance from anyone if followed up with an "...or else". It's not trans people that have necessarily been doing this, but often just the activists and people who say they have our interests at heart. Unfortunately they don't seem to know or care much about human psychology. And it's not them or their tactics that become the target of the anger. It's us.
If I had to sum the feeling of some of these people up at the moment, if you're wondering, it's that they perceive we - trans people - our movement and our activists are trying to turn the traditional notions of biological sex upside down (which will cause problems as it now has in people trying to take advantage of 'trans status' in bathrooms and prisons etc.) and are trying to indoctrinate their kids. That's it in a nutshell. They fear the trans movement has gone nuts and is going to wreak havoc on society.
Some of them are not actually concerned about us, or about the trans condition itself, but about the effect of teaching malleable gender to children on those children, or about how people can and will take advantage of new trans status rules to commit crimes. In my country already there have been two high-profile cases in which a notorious child murderer in prison has asked to transition to a woman, and another in which a trans woman sent to a women's prison sexually assaulted/raped other female prisoners in there. Naturally the responses are things like "well that was bound to happen", and yes, it is if the laws are changed to allow situation to arise... at some point they are going to because at some point someone is either going to commit these crimes, or use the trans label to get into a position to commit them. It's unfortunate but we are going to be dealing with these problems as they come.
Quote from: ErinAscending on September 27, 2018, 11:08:31 AM
I used to work for an insurance company under a district mgnr. who had transitioned a few years before I started working there. She was 2 steps under the CEO and one of the most powerful women I ever had the pleasure of meeting. I was witness both to the respect she commanded over all of us and the crude jokes from the un-evolved after she was out of earshot as I was still repressed. VERY repressed. Had no clue I was trans too. I stood up for her nevertheless the first time I heard those things and was laughed at for attempting even a modicum civility in regard.
I used it as a learning experience. I knew exactly to whom I needn't pay any attention.
There were 400 employees in our office. I only needed to avoid about 7 of them (at least for that reason) as everyone else thought nothing of the circumstance at all.
Every time I see a comment board overrun by the trolls I think of that fact. "This represents the few where most would disagree. Nothing to see here."
The only other thing I would add, however is that it is those few who with enough hate in their lives, may be the one's who would turn violent. IRL avoid them at all costs. Be safe and live life. It all we can do.
<3
Erin, thanks for sharing this. Your general manager sounds amazing. We need her in this community inspiring others.
Karen
Quote from: MissKatie on September 27, 2018, 03:04:29 AM
It is difficult because my boss at work keeps joking to us "men" come along ladies or lady boys.
Please don't think he's being mean, he's just messing.
.however I think simultaneously 'they know' and 'i wish'
I still would pull in aside and tell him that it is inappropriate. That's not the right way to treat the men or you. I also take it as a slam on women. Come along ladies make me think he is saying women are weaker and need to follow. Yes I might be taking it to much, but I would hate that comment.
Julie
Hello again Miss Katie and nice to see you posting again!
I believe as recently as the end of the millennium there was a significant disapproval and disgust of us by a great proportion of the population here in the UK.
However since the millennium with us becoming more visible and people becoming more educated in terms of trans issues, most of the population are indeed now indifferent. I think the minority that hate us often come from these 3 demographics.
1. The elder population and only because they have no experience of us.
2. Those that are opposed to or simply do not like any form of change in society.
3. Religious Fundamentalists
Hence there is still a social taboo to some extent. However things are changing; we are gaining acceptance; most are already indifferent instead of anti; we are getting there; we will win!
Hugs
Pamela