Alright so there are so many things going on with me lately that I am pondering something else. I realize there is no one absolute truth for any situation that involves multiple perspectives. As a general rule do you believe that being submissive is a very feminine trait?
I've always felt very submissive in my personal life. It's been a point of stress in the past with my wife. Oddly enough, in my work life I enjoy challenge and having somebody trust me with authority on projects or in my daily work. At home though, I have always wanted to take the back seat. I like being led in my domestic life. It feels good to have somebody else be in control and be aggressive with how they want things to be. At least that is how I have always felt. It just seems to go against all of the norms for me to feel uncomfortable making the decisions and being the one to guide our actions at home.
My wife isn't exactly submissive but she does prefer for me to be the aggressor or decision maker in the relationship. This is the only part of my relationship that I wish that I could change. It would be so much easier if my wife had a dominate personality and didn't mind taking control. I would love to just sit back and ride from the backseat like a good girl.
I guess I'm not even sure what I wanted to accomplish with this post other than getting that off of my chest. What do you MTF ladies out there think? Do the majority of you prefer the submissive role in your personal life? Or, just in life, in general? Love and faith.
Gabrielle
Well, it will vary from person to person, but I don't think that being submissive equals feminine. Whenever I've dated girls, they tended to be more aggressive, regardless of how I identify with myself.
I can say this. Many of us are kinda forced if not strongly coerced to fit a certain stereotype for a part of our lives at least, and coming out and being free with yourself can lead to all sorts of realizations about yourself you otherwise would never have had. That's normal, and a healthy part of the process, I think, anyways.
This may be difficult for your wife, so patience is key, but you also need to be you. Maybe talk about possible ideas for compromise, try different things together, and see how you can balance things. The more you communicate together, the better chance of all working out to a pleasant conclusion.
As mentioned, it is subjective, and if you are happy to act out a more submissive role, then there isn't anything wrong with that.
This however ties in with a conversation I had with a cis friend this evening, where I indicated that I sort of regret not transitioning earlier in life to be able to experience the youth and beauty that goes along with that. She responded by saying she doesn't miss that as much, since she tended to be objectified more at a younger age, and now struggles a lot less with being taken seriously in her profession, and life in general.
I guess there is no simple answer, and it depends on what in particular we may be looking for.
There are aggressive and submissive men and there are aggressive and submissive women. But in general, being more submissive tends to be a feminine trait.
When I was trying to be a male, I figured that I must just be a wimp, because I didn't like being assertive. But now, of course, that makes sense. It was just my femininity poking through the facade.
Great topic Gabrielle! In my situation my wife of 14 years is a more aggressive person and she's able to stay home and take charge. She sometimes complains about me being too passive, but this may be because she is 16 years older than me. I like making decisions about things sometimes, but she will often complain if I do. She will then do it her own preferred way and so maybe I've been trained to be passive? Even about transitioning she has told me recently she thinks I am medically transitioning because it's the only thing in my life I feel like I can control... I disagree with that of course but it's interesting to see it from her more domineering perspective.
Being submissive is a personality trait not related to gender. There may be social norms and stereotypes that push people to act accordingly as well. For me, I'm a bit in the middle, sometimes called a "switch." I think most people regardless of gender can take both submissive and dominant roles depending on the situation. :police: :icon_chick:
Interesting topic, Gabrielle. Personally (as the feminine part of this entity) I don't find being feminine to mean being submissive. Actually, there is considerable "power" in my feminine side, mostly power to influence (rather than to overwhelm as in my masculine side).
But I was on another thread recently that mentioned feeling "vulnerable" when feminine and I agree. And in some ways submissiveness can naturally flow from vulnerability -- although it does not need to. Equally naturally the power of self control (and influential control) can also flow from vulnerability. Perhaps it all depends upon the self confidence of the individual woman?
Carolina
Quote from: gracefulhat on October 03, 2018, 08:25:27 PM
Great topic Gabrielle! In my situation my wife of 14 years is a more aggressive person and she's able to stay home and take charge. She sometimes complains about me being too passive, but this may be because she is 16 years older than me. I like making decisions about things sometimes, but she will often complain if I do. She will then do it her own preferred way and so maybe I've been trained to be passive?
Pretty much the same here, I have been together with my wife for 11 years and she is very aggressive, she is 14 years older than me too. She makes all the decisions and I just tag along. I can't say she made me like this as I have always been very passive, but it's certainly bolstered it.
Interestingly, she has a male digit ratio and I have a female one. She also never wears anything feminine and would NEVER wear makeup. She is FAR more masculine than I am in terms of her attitude to life, emotions and dominance.
I would say that on the whole, generally, femininity is often seen as submissive, but there is a deeper layer to that, it's a bit like in the S&M world, a submissive individual actually has the power as they are effectively making the dom perform for them and they can make them stop at any time using the safe word. The power to relinquish dominance at will is real power, if any of that makes sense! ;D
If anyone asks who wears the pants in the family it has to be my wife! I won't be pushed around but I don't take the lead in things unless I really need to. So I'd say being a follower or a leader isn't a gendered thing, just a personal trait.
Quote from: VickyS on October 04, 2018, 03:40:40 AM
Pretty much the same here, I have been together with my wife for 11 years and she is very aggressive, she is 14 years older than me too. She makes all the decisions and I just tag along. I can't say she made me like this as I have always been very passive, but it's certainly bolstered it.
Interestingly, she has a male digit ratio and I have a female one. She also never wears anything feminine and would NEVER wear makeup. She is FAR more masculine than I am in terms of her attitude to life, emotions and dominance.
I would say that on the whole, generally, femininity is often seen as submissive, but there is a deeper layer to that, it's a bit like in the S&M world, a submissive individual actually has the power as they are effectively making the dom perform for them and they can make them stop at any time using the safe word. The power to relinquish dominance at will is real power, if any of that makes sense! ;D
Omg VickyS, fascinating! Before I ever came out as trans to my wife, she used to say that we needed to switch bodies because she would be the perfect man and vice versa. She doesn't like to wear makeup, and hates anything that shows her figure (she's very beautiful). It makes me think about why I married someone 16 years older and you someone 14 years. Looking back when I was 21, I would definately say I loved her, but I would also say she was my security too.
Hi gracefulhat! Yes, I have said similar things before although my wife adamantly says she is happy the way she is and would not like to have a male body, but when I am exhausted running around doing chores and she's busy watching tv, I have sarcasticly said that I'd make someone a wonderful wife! ;D I don't say it these days though as after coming out, she would just kick off with me if I said anything like that.
You are really lucky to have a beautiful wife. I think mine could pass as male if she shaved her head. That's not being horrible, but just an observation really.
I think we might have had different reasons for getting together though. She was the first woman I had ever been with and I was on the rebound from a guy. She led the whole thing and I just went along with it and before I knew it I was married! Maybe I was attracted to her masculinity? Don't know. Makes you wonder about the age gap though doesn't it? I was 32 when we got together and she was 46.
QuoteBeing submissive is a personality trait not related to gender.
This. Hey people let's remember that we're humans at the first place and men or women or whatever else at second.
Given that testosterone promotes aggression, it's likely that fewer males are submissive. And society reinforces that. But that's painting with a wildly broad brush. Exceptions abound.
My wife is 100% natural woman, and a dominant powerhouse. I am about 60/40% male/female and very much submissive. And I like it this way!
She makes the major decisions, tells me what to wear, and controls our social calendar. I never know how I am going to be dressed until I step out of the shower and see what she has laid out for me. Sometimes it is embarrassing when she picks frilly stuff for non-frilly activities, and sometimes it is a wonderful surprise with new things.
We are part time swingers too, and she always picks my partner(s).
I appreciate all of the feedback from everybody that chimed in. I suppose this wasn't really a question as much as a statement of my own perspective. For me, being submissive is part of what makes me feel more feminine. Of course, I know that you don't have to be submissive if you are woman. For me though, it just helps me define myself. The more I accept my submissive side the softer I feel. When I feel soft, I feel feminine. Whenever I have the chance to give in to my submissiveness and follow, especially with my wife, it makes me feel really happy. So when I feel happy, that also relates in my own mind to being feminine. My male side rarely feels much happiness. I like being happy, and so it goes.
For me, I definitely crave to be led in my relationship. I think that's part of my struggle to express myself as a woman. My wife doesn't really want that and I very much want to please her. This is one time though that not pleasing my wife is better for me than submitting. It's all a vicious cycle that I need to find a way to break for my own sake. Thank you all again for giving me your own perspectives on this very intriguing topic for me. Love and faith.
Gabrielle
:icon_censored: no. Not for me, and not for most of my female friends. (I AM very quiet and mousy irl though *squeak squeak*). I'm more of a switch, I guess--could go either way depending on my mood.
Correction: not for ANY of my female friends. I seem to get along well with other tomboys.
But, you know--everyone's got their own version of femininity, and yours happens to be submissive. There's nothing wrong with having a more traditional feminine personality, just like there's nothing wrong with being more free-spirited, outspoken, or dominant.
Nope. I've met many women throughout my life that are very feminine and very dominate. I don't know if they were dominate at home, but at work they were the boss and they knew it. I assume this personality trait was always there. Of course everyone has their mask on for one reason or another.
Some were dominate with their spouses as well. That I know.
Hell, I've even met a housewife that was clearly the boss.
I feel like I became more "agreeable" when I started on hormones. If you equate agreeableness with submissiveness then I guess I would say that women are inherently more submissive in my experience. I'm not 100% sure about the distinction though, and I might have just been subconsciously adopting behaviors that I believe to be feminine, I guess.
This is a fun topic to think about, thanks!
Quote from: Angela H on October 04, 2018, 10:53:56 PM
I feel like I became more "agreeable" when I started on hormones. If you equate agreeableness with submissiveness then I guess I would say that women are inherently more submissive in my experience. I'm not 100% sure about the distinction though, and I might have just been subconsciously adopting behaviors that I believe to be feminine, I guess.
This is a fun topic to think about, thanks!
I do what I can ;D love and faith
Gabrielle
On the whole - man or woman - there are submissive types who just don't enjoy jousting with others and there are dominant types who do. I think it has more to do with one's native personality than one's sex. What comes natural to a person comes without effort, and if being dominant or domineering comes natural then you can tirelessly do it over and over while the others around you get worn out with it and eventually submit to it. This is the general human dynamic I have observed in people. There's some overlap there between this idea and the natural tendencies of men and women. Men having more confidence for example - for which T can be largely responsible - women being more subject to changes of mood due to E and so on, or being stereotypically nitpicky about things. You can see where confidence aids in being dominant, or where being nitpicky could win over in a situation just by sheer repetition... and if these things come without effort (i.e. are hormonal) then they can be done ad nauseam and often unconsciously.
But, to stress, I think the major part of a person's dominance or submission comes from their own natural personality. I consider myself of the more dominant variety, although I'm not interested in posturing to other people. I'm only interested in having full control over anything I do and my own life and in that I am absolutely dominant. I don't get off on telling others what to do. But some people do, male and female. And then there are other people who just want a quiet life, male and female, and who sometimes become doormats to other people because of it. A well-balanced person will exercise dominance where sensible and productive and not constantly dominate or constantly submit.
I would hesitate to say that women are "submissive" because I am descended from several that like to dominate, and the women in the family typically get their way due to a combination of assertiveness and selfishness. But at the same time with these women, that only seems to work if others around them don't stand up to it. If they do, then I've seen those women suddenly claim to be the victims in the situation... and they are believed. So I'm not sure - I would say women can use submission as a weapon too when dominance doesn't work, in which case it's not really "submission".
But on the whole most women don't seem to like violence or being in the middle of it, or being macho. They're often no less domineering, they just have a different method of going about it. I suppose you would call it "soft power" but power nonetheless.
Good question. I'm feminine, when I'm not climbing, snowboarding, messing about with cars, working in IT and various other things. I'm also submissive. The 2 are unrelated, but many people do draw a connection between feminine and submissive that simply does not exist.
I tend to think of personality as being like a graphics equalizer from the 80's, the sliders can end up all over the place and there's not necessarily any connection between the various sliders.
Yes and no. I think masculinity can submit too. It's not about dominance or which is stronger. It's more yin-yang than that depending on the circumstances and also, if it's a couple, their sexuality.
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Quote from: Allison S on October 05, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
Yes and no. I think masculinity can submit too. It's not about dominance or which is stronger. It's more yin-yang than that depending on the circumstances and also, if it's a couple, their sexuality.
Very well put, it all depends on situation and circumstances, I'm now married to a man for 8 years, very much an alpha male that likes to be in charge, makes him feel ''manly'' we are equal in a sense, we discuss everything but the final decision and most major decisions are made by him, he really loves being ''man of the house'' and taking the leading role, I don't mind, I just let him at it, it's less stress for me.
I think it's more likely than the other way around, but by no means hard and fast.
In my fantasies I am 1000% submissive in a sexual context...but outside the bedroom, so to speak, I want to at least think of myself as assertive. Certainly not aggressive, for sure. That said, were I ever to get married I would not be the one wearing either the metaphorical or literal pants - as long as my physical/financial/emotional safety were not at stake. (And that last one is intentionally a loophole large enough to drive a truck through.)
Absolutely no real life correlation, only in gender perceived norms, real life is quite different. Gender, economic or social status has little to do with it. Culture can change how people expect to be seen in this case but is not a barometer of how they are in reality. Men are just as submissive as women even if they cannot allow others to see them as such.
Many alphas in society are submissive in the bedroom and visa versa. In sex and in life partners, generally speaking, the good pairings are those that fit well with people that fit like a puzzle piece, if your mate is curving out, you curve in. Gender doesn't make the curves the curves are built in, no matter what Hollywood might say.
The scary thing is that the submissive males in male social groups can be the most dangerous to females. It is very true, I will let you work through that on your own though.
I know that we seek verification or validation in so many ways but it doesn't exist, it is just justification for how we feel. We don't need to justify, just be honest with ourselves and live our life true to who we are.
I am honestly very happy to see so many varied answers to this question. I never truly believed that just because somebody is submissive that it meant they had to be feminine. I don't even believe it's the other way around. There is too much variety in the world for it to be black and white. I know that I am submissive in almost all aspects of my life and I feel feminine. So for me it is true but that is just me. I've always enjoyed seeing other people's perspectives on things. Thank you again, to everybody that has joined in this little discussion. I find all of the answers fascinating and enlightening. Love and faith.
Gabrielle