This is of some concern to me as I wish to change my gender on my state ID.
I live in Colorado and I do not have the funds for surgery.
That kind of money won't exist for many years possibly.
HRT is mot a problem, but th whole ID thing is annoying to me
I have begun to realize that as my hair is getting longer, once my facial hair is removed I will be quite feminine, and I need an ID foe going out with friends and such.
All I currently have is my passport, and the picture on that already causes me problems as I was quite tan and with short hair.
Does anyone know about Colorado ID standards?
We have a T inclusive Colorado ENDA here.
There's a list & brief description of procedures for each USA state at this link: http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html (http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html)
I'd suggest using the link there to actually ask the CO. department for more extensive details.
Nichole
Thats birth certificate, not drivers license.
I moved to DC for this issue. DC has statutory law that allows me to change gender on a license with a form signed by doctor, therapist, and some others who are authorized. This is DC though.
I don't know about Colorado law.
Sarah, since you aren't moving to D.C. try the CO driver's licensing website.
They say that "To be issued a Colorado Driver's License or Identification Card, you must prove the following elements: your full legal name, identity, age, and lawful presence in the United States. The Identification Requirements Chart shows the documents that you may use to prove each of these elements. In some cases, a single document may prove all four elements. However, it may be necessary for some applicants to provide multiple documents in order to prove all the required elements. All documents presented must be certified originals or certified amended originals or true copies certified by the issuing agency."
Gender is not mentioned as one of the elements.
Nichole
Re: Gender change without SRS.
....and I'm stuck with it....unless I can move to America?
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Re: Gender change without SRS.
....and I'm stuck with it....unless I can move to America?
COme on over :)
Quote from: y2gender on January 05, 2008, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Re: Gender change without SRS.
....and I'm stuck with it....unless I can move to America?
COme on over :)
Thanks hon! I was serious....I have spent 4 years trying to get a referral out of the NHS..
I've had enough...
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:50:33 PM
Thanks hon! I was serious....I have spent 4 years trying to get a referral out of the NHS..
I've had enough...
Your situation sounds absolutely frustrating!
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on January 05, 2008, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:50:33 PM
Thanks hon! I was serious....I have spent 4 years trying to get a referral out of the NHS..
I've had enough...
Your situation sounds absolutely frustrating!
y2g
It's very frustrating hon. I know some people on the forum say I'm bitter but how would they feel? I expected my transition to be over a timescale of 2 years maximum, not 10 years and counting.....
It has broken me.....
Berliegh,
In your situation, in the UK, you should be able to get full legal gender change (i.e. GRC, birth certificate, pension, national insurance, etc, etc ....) ?
Not having the funds for SRS or being on an "intractable" NHS waiting list for surgery, would still qualify you for "legal" gender change as a pre-op after the requisite 2 years.
And bear in mind that the US women who make up the bulk of this forum's contributors have no recourse for any kind of state funded surgery. Or have such a thing as our Gender Recognition Act ....
Which health authority / PCT has kept you on hold for 10 years ? Don't know your story but you seem to have got an extrordinarily raw deal ....
Laura
Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 10, 2008, 08:44:54 PM
Berliegh,
In your situation, in the UK, you should be able to get full legal gender change (i.e. GRC, birth certificate, pension, national insurance, etc, etc ....) ?
I changed all this documentation years ago!
Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 10, 2008, 08:44:54 PM
Not having the funds for SRS or being on an "intractable" NHS waiting list for surgery, would still qualify you for "legal" gender change as a pre-op after the requisite 2 years.
How about 4 years , nearly 5? so I am long term RLE but it's not so easy as you might think.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 10, 2008, 08:44:54 PM
And bear in mind that the US women who make up the bulk of this forum's contributors have no recourse for any kind of state funded surgery. Or have such a thing as our Gender Recognition Act ....
Which health authority / PCT has kept you on hold for 10 years ? Don't know your story but you seem to have got an extrordinarily raw deal ....
Laura
It's nothing to do with state funding or anything like that. The NHS is tax funded by us. We pay our high taxes towards the upkeep of the NHS.
Private referrals from consultants are not usually excepted in the U.K because our GP's are all NHS based and it is really hard to get a referral excepted and put through the system be it private or NHS. I have now had to re-locate to Scotland where their system is different to the English one in order to access treatment and to access a referral.
Hi all,
Since changing my name last year, I have been trying to find out what was required to change my gender on my license, although the gender does not show up on the actual license, but it is still on record with MVR. When I first asked, the staff of the Alice Springs Motor Vehicle Registry, weren't to sure, so I emailed Darwin, I did get a reply, but I lost it, and I couldn't remember what it said, so I decided yesterday (18/01/08), that seeing as how I had to renew my license I would go and see if they could help me this time, and was told what was required. See quoted clause
" 2.02.9 Evidence of Gender Reassignment
Full EO! (Category A and B) original documents in the current or former name, and a new birth certificate (with change of name if applicable) issued by the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages is required from a person who has had a gender reassignment. "
So to me this says that I need, some form of ID plus my new birth certificate with my new gender, which I cannot obtain until after I have had the operation.
Well this is what is required by the Northern Territory, Australia, It would be interesting to see what they other states and countries require.
Hugs
Sharon
Hi Berliegh hon
If you are serious you are still welcome to use our residence here in BC until you get the proper documentation to have the surgery.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 18, 2008, 09:29:53 PM
Hi Berliegh hon
If you are serious you are still welcome to use our residence here in BC until you get the proper documentation to have the surgery.
Cindy
Thanks Cindy, you have been very kind. I will see what happens in Scotland and if this also fails, then I might take you up on your kind offer. What do you mean by proper documentation? Do you mean letters of referral?
Yes letters of referral. Anyway you are quite welcomed if you should decide to come BC way. May God speed with you in Scotland. You are certainly not a quitter, I admire that in a person.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 20, 2008, 06:47:24 AM
Yes letters of referral. Anyway you are quite welcomed if you should decide to come BC way. May God speed with you in Scotland. You are certainly not a quitter, I admire that in a person.
Cindy
I'm not a quitter. The more barriers they put up in the U.K the more determined I become.
Hi Berlieg
"Hee, hee, hee." No I hardly thought you were. Like Wing Walker says we get pulled through knot holes backwards and still keep on tikin. Well I think we even have Timex watches that takes a beating and keeps on tikin beat when it comes to tickin. I might be sensitive and emotional but I have lots of tenacity. Like tough old moos hide.
Cindy
Berliegh don't give up. your welcome anytime in US.
isn't that like... easier said than done?
*sees problems for self in future. :(
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on January 26, 2008, 10:22:39 AM
isn't that like... easier said than done?
*sees problems for self in future. :(
I see your living in the U.K......the only advice I can give you is to avoid the NHS (and most definitely Charing Cross GIC) as much as possible Fluffy.......don't do what I did and end up in a 7 year battle with them to try and access treatment..
Quote from: Stephanie Butterfield on February 08, 2008, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on January 27, 2008, 04:46:32 AM
I see your living in the U.K......the only advice I can give you is to avoid the NHS (and most definitely Charing Cross GIC) as much as possible Fluffy.......don't do what I did and end up in a 7 year battle with them to try and access treatment..
Hi Berleigh and Fluffy,
I don't know your histories but if you pvt e-mail me, we can chat about what has gone wrong. There is nothing to be worried about using the NHS system for your Gender reassignment.
Its just that sometimes you have to be pro active, it is a long explanation, but is worthwhile knowing.
Stephanie
Get out of here Steph.....I've just been in meetings with my MP this afternoon to try and sort this crazy business out....Charing Cross GIC turned me down for a referral for Gender re-assignment surgery without providing an explanation......I've also been RLT for 5 years and have complied with the HBSOC and all clinic protocols. Not to mention the fact that Charing Cross mixed my medical file up with other patients. I've been fighting the NHS and CX for 7 years to get this resolved so don't you dare come in here and say there's nothing wrong with the NHS GIC system for your Gender reassignment.
I hate Ohio :(
http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html
I don't care doing it any ways
Sarah,
Here in colorado we can get our Drivers license changed without SRS, You will need to get into theraphy though and possibly get HRT from a doctor to do so.
All you need is two letters to prove yourself... One letter from therapist and another from the doc...
Take care hun...
Berliegh, so basically, we should move countries (in my case- again,) just because some freakshow can't sort themselves out, 'cause it will take just as long?
Ah, one thing that propper pisses me off too. I can't get breast reduction surgery 'till I'm 22 or something but others can get implants to make their breasts bigger when they're 18 like me! Unfair! It's not the money, apparently.
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 07, 2008, 11:18:53 AM
Berliegh, so basically, we should move countries (in my case- again,) just because some freakshow can't sort themselves out, 'cause it will take just as long?
Ah, one thing that propper pisses me off too. I can't get breast reduction surgery 'till I'm 22 or something but others can get implants to make their breasts bigger when they're 18 like me! Unfair! It's not the money, apparently.
I have spent 8 years trying to access some form of NHS treatment.......so I'm not going to waste another 8 years. I have had the Healthcare Commission, GMC, the PCT , my MP all asking Charing Cross GIC to provide some answers.......the NHS has been a waste of time in my case and I'm tired of fighting the system...
I've got to move on and look at other options....which may be overseas..
I'm scared.
Hi Fluffy Jorgen,
Being scared is certainly a very human thing to feel. I believe you live in UK. If so, then after what I have been reading, the crap that Berileigh has been informing us Charing Cross, it is certainly reason enough to be scared. Least ways especially if you are planning for SRS from a concern that is proving to be very incompetent, actually near to useless.
My bet would be that if their job is to be helping those suffering from GID, this place is not fulfilling or living up to the expectations of those who rely on them. My guess is that this might be a classic example of a government entity that is not intending on continuing to supply the service or obligations they are designed to do. Closure by NHS comes to mind for one.
Are there no other alternatives in the entire country of the UK where you can go for assessment and surgery? Is actually moving to some place in the Northern American countries possible for you? Not every one can afford to cross the crick to live with the chances of being able to obtain a job to sustain themselves. Firstly, it costs a goodly amount of money to live in either U.S. or Canada. Then there might be a time where you may have to take a job with low pay, like McDonald's, on the account you won't be able buy a job in a higher position even if you are a university graduate. Being trans, pre or post, might not help, either.
Cindy
Lol. No. Not scared of NHS.
I think I was being spontaneous when I wrote that I was scared and didn't want to expand on it 'cause lately I'm scared of my own shadow (literally! :/) never mind what'll happen in the future.
My uncle recently moved to Canada, suppose I'd be able to start off living at his, it is a long shot though, he's not very tolerant, plus, you're right, I'd need a lot of money to move there first, let alone... Time is of essence but fear of rejection is of essence too.
I think I'm gonna go back to my Therapist and ask her to find me a Gender Specialist. Currently, I'm just building my self- esteem, confidence (again) by just being able to "pass".
So glad I found this website though. It's given me a lot of advice and help, and the feeling of not being alone, already. Thanks!
I don't think that the definition of being a transsexual need include a desire for a genital alteration to become the other sex.
I think that such a view is biased and supports that gender is defined by the genitals.
I know, and plenty of you know, beautiful women who haven't had that operation, but are still women. And the same is true for FtMs, just much more often because we can't get any competant doctors on their side to come up with a good way to mess around with things down there.
So, I don't think you should have to have SRS to change your gender.
Just my two cents:-)
On the flip side, I think it's pretty messed up for women to be going to lady's restrooms and have extra assets that they shouldn't have and likewise with the men. I sure as hell wouldn't want a kid of mine, if I had one, sharing a private space with someone more capable of molesting her than anyone else in that room was. I think that's why the government has to have their rules or whatever, because of what COULD happen. People always run off fear these days.
Lol. I should make up my mind.
Quote from: Annwyn on March 08, 2008, 06:54:32 AM
I don't think that the definition of being a transsexual need include a desire for a genital alteration to become the other sex.
I think that such a view is biased and supports that gender is defined by the genitals.
I know, and plenty of you know, beautiful women who haven't had that operation, but are still women. And the same is true for FtMs, just much more often because we can't get any competant doctors on their side to come up with a good way to mess around with things down there.
So, I don't think you should have to have SRS to change your gender.
Just my two cents:-)
On the flip side, I think it's pretty messed up for women to be going to lady's restrooms and have extra assets that they shouldn't have and likewise with the men. I sure as hell wouldn't want a kid of mine, if I had one, sharing a private space with someone more capable of molesting her than anyone else in that room was. I think that's why the government has to have their rules or whatever, because of what COULD happen. People always run off fear these days.
Lol. I should make up my mind.
That is one strange post. I'm going to address the second part first. People in transition have to use the restroom, what's your problem. When you express what you did you sound like our detractors. The vast majoritty of folks who abuse children are non-transsexual heterosexual males. Such crimes by transgendered/treanssexual person are virtually unheard of. Having "extra assets" is part of transition for MtF's. Tell me do you feel FtM's are a danger because T makes them dangerous? Seriously, for MtF's HRT basically kills the male sex drive.
Now the rest, my 2 cents, that most people aren't going to like, is the following:
If you don't want surgery(MtF) then you're not a transsexual, you're transgendered. Yes there are a precious few who have valid medical reasons, but in my experience way too many people hide behind that as a reason. Personally I would still have surgery because that how strongly I feel about it and that's a defining characteristic of being transsexual. There are also people who choose to be "non-op". Again, I think if you choose that that means you are transgendered, not transsexual. The problem here is over the last decade people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". Why can't they just accept that they're transgendered?
In that vein I've seen various on-line transsexual support forums starting to be taken over by transgendered folks. I hate to say it, but Susan's transsexual board is like that. Too many transgendered folks invading the transsexual board.
Labels DO matter. A transsexual person (MtF) wants surgery. A transsexual person (MtF) wants the life they were denied, a woman's life. To live that life to it's fullest you have to have surgery. Until then there are many things you just can't experience. If you even have to ask what those experiences are, you're transgendered and that's okay.
Next, many will claim poverty. With Thailand offering MtF surgery for $5-10,000, no therapy, no problem, anybody should be able to afford that. You don't want the surgery, that's okay, you're transgendered and that's okay.
Next, many will claim that surgery isn't advanced enough. That is just an out and out lie. Surgery today is very good. You are simply transgendered and not transsexual, and that's okay.
I don't understand this fascination with claiming to be transsexual, when you are in fact transgendered. I don't accept this attempted to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". One thing I find particularly gauling is the origin of the word "transgendered". The term was coined by someone who was a full-time crossdresser. They didn't even claim to have ANY feelings of dysphoria, it was about the clothes. Further this person claimed transsexuals didn't exist! That person, who went by a female name, obviously doesn't speak for me.
Hi Fluffy jorgen. Well i bought the entire block and now I am sitting on the other side of the fence looking back at the block I have just departed from. Hon just want to say that even after living as a woman for the last 7 years, I still feel fear now and again. I still worry about stuff. I am very much human and I bleed the same color blood as anyone else. Life can be very much fickled. Nothing is constant and even as a PSY I can't read the future or least ways it don't seem to work just by willing it.
I have been feeling about my most precious loving partner. I get this unreasonable fear about what would happen to me if she were to leave this life. I will not go any further except that I get these unsubstantiated fears. Now that I have found happiness in my life I certainly don't relish the Idea of loosing the biggest part of it. It doesn't mater if one is preop, or post opp, native American, French or a Martian without her space ship. I still feel fear and I have my emotional times. The fat tears that flow like miniature rivers on my cheeks I could a tribute to the estrogen. Tears are like bleeding the poison out of your system, they are good. But I also realise I can rise above my fears, all I need do is to do my best to make the right decisions and follow up on that decision makes for a much better life. Not perfect but good.
Jeeee I do hope you can decipher this post.
Cindy
oh, i know, no physical change doesn't take away any of the other inner turmoil that makes one a human being.
i've come to dislike the Human Rights, the freedom of speech and the freedom to be yourself, the hell you can.
i don't have a partner, i have my mum to worry about. she has heart problems and i suppose i am a problem of her heart as well, metaphorically speaking. she's nearly had two heart attacks because of me already! without her, i'm homeless, futureless and all the other basic "less". meh. depressing period.
so, i'll go and bleed the poison out of my system now.
Quote from: Beyond on March 08, 2008, 07:48:33 AM
If you don't want surgery(MtF) then you're not a transsexual, you're transgendered.
When I saw this, all else blanked out.
Non operative transsexuals are still transsexuals.
Do NOT ever say something so bigoted, biased, uneducated, inconsiderate, and cruel ever again please.
Saying that one's genitilia determine the fullest extent of one's desired gender is beyond me. I personally am mortally afraid of someone coming to mess around with my only functioning sexual organ. Atleast I know this thing works if I ever want to use it.
Quote from: Annwyn on March 08, 2008, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: Beyond on March 08, 2008, 07:48:33 AM
If you don't want surgery(MtF) then you're not a transsexual, you're transgendered.
When I saw this, all else blanked out.
Non operative transsexuals are still transsexuals.
Do NOT ever say something so bigoted, biased, uneducated, inconsiderate, and cruel ever again please.
Saying that one's genitilia determine the fullest extent of one's desired gender is beyond me. I personally am mortally afraid of someone coming to mess around with my only functioning sexual organ. At least I know this thing works if I ever want to use it.
Ok, we all have opinions and as long as we feel no need to say things about one another, just about ideas and concepts, everyone stays on-the-board and gets to post with each other. So, please simmer down.
I have no idea what Beyond has experienced in her life, Annwyn. And no notion of what you have. But, I would imagine that everyone to a great degree forms her notions about things as her mind is affected by those experiences. Both you and she are allowed that.
To tell someone not to say something ever again seems like a rather bold attempt to suppress her writing her mind. But, exactly how would anyone enforce such a demand?
Her mind is what it is. Annwyn, your mind is also what it is. Both of you please let it be so this thread can progress with exchanges that can be heard. Not exchanges that degenerate into something that gets the thread locked, your posts deleted, the fighters banned or smited, or both, and everyone with a bad taste in their mouths.
Thank you both.
Nichole
Hi fluffy jorgen at least I have learned more about who Fluffy Jorgan is. Ok I am not certain I can do anything for you at this time except say good luck and I will send a prayer.
Cindy
Posted on: March 08, 2008, 06:01:22 PM
Ok I don't want or intend to pick any bones with anyone, but I would have felt incomplete if I hadn't went through with it. I wanted to be as female as the medical profession could make me. I didn't give a pinch of coon ->-bleeped-<- even if the female part didn't work.
It's up to the individuals choice to do so or not, in some cases unfortunately some will never have the money to finish their journey or maybe some health issue will make it impossible to go through the whole procedure.
Determining whether one is operable and another is not is a medical and psychiatric decision. I think we have had this discussion before and it never got anywhere that time either. As for anyone outside of this range of reasons, I guess it is their decision to make and be it. Whether they are trans or not is their decision to make.
Cindy
Quote from: Beyond on March 08, 2008, 07:48:33 AM
Quote from: Annwyn on March 08, 2008, 06:54:32 AM
I don't think that the definition of being a transsexual need include a desire for a genital alteration to become the other sex.
I think that such a view is biased and supports that gender is defined by the genitals.
I know, and plenty of you know, beautiful women who haven't had that operation, but are still women. And the same is true for FtMs, just much more often because we can't get any competant doctors on their side to come up with a good way to mess around with things down there.
So, I don't think you should have to have SRS to change your gender.
Just my two cents:-)
On the flip side, I think it's pretty messed up for women to be going to lady's restrooms and have extra assets that they shouldn't have and likewise with the men. I sure as hell wouldn't want a kid of mine, if I had one, sharing a private space with someone more capable of molesting her than anyone else in that room was. I think that's why the government has to have their rules or whatever, because of what COULD happen. People always run off fear these days.
Lol. I should make up my mind.
That is one strange post. I'm going to address the second part first. People in transition have to use the restroom, what's your problem. When you express what you did you sound like our detractors. The vast majoritty of folks who abuse children are non-transsexual heterosexual males. Such crimes by transgendered/treanssexual person are virtually unheard of. Having "extra assets" is part of transition for MtF's. Tell me do you feel FtM's are a danger because T makes them dangerous? Seriously, for MtF's HRT basically kills the male sex drive.
Now the rest, my 2 cents, that most people aren't going to like, is the following:
If you don't want surgery(MtF) then you're not a transsexual, you're transgendered. Yes there are a precious few who have valid medical reasons, but in my experience way too many people hide behind that as a reason. Personally I would still have surgery because that how strongly I feel about it and that's a defining characteristic of being transsexual. There are also people who choose to be "non-op". Again, I think if you choose that that means you are transgendered, not transsexual. The problem here is over the last decade people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". Why can't they just accept that they're transgendered?
In that vein I've seen various on-line transsexual support forums starting to be taken over by transgendered folks. I hate to say it, but Susan's transsexual board is like that. Too many transgendered folks invading the transsexual board.
Labels DO matter. A transsexual person (MtF) wants surgery. A transsexual person (MtF) wants the life they were denied, a woman's life. To live that life to it's fullest you have to have surgery. Until then there are many things you just can't experience. If you even have to ask what those experiences are, you're transgendered and that's okay.
Next, many will claim poverty. With Thailand offering MtF surgery for $5-10,000, no therapy, no problem, anybody should be able to afford that. You don't want the surgery, that's okay, you're transgendered and that's okay.
Next, many will claim that surgery isn't advanced enough. That is just an out and out lie. Surgery today is very good. You are simply transgendered and not transsexual, and that's okay.
I don't understand this fascination with claiming to be transsexual, when you are in fact transgendered. I don't accept this attempted to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". One thing I find particularly gauling is the origin of the word "transgendered". The term was coined by someone who was a full-time crossdresser. They didn't even claim to have ANY feelings of dysphoria, it was about the clothes. Further this person claimed transsexuals didn't exist! That person, who went by a female name, obviously doesn't speak for me.
Hi, Everyone,
Let's go back a few posts on this thread and remember that it dealt with changing the gender marker on one's driver's license and other identity papers to match their gender as they believe it to be, not necessasrily as it is on a birth certificate.
Please see http://www.ts-symposium.org/ (http://www.ts-symposium.org/)
Sounds like we may have met, Beyond.
FYI, the term "transgendered" was coined by one Virginia Prince who was a full-time cross-dresser, as you accurately noted.
There are those who are non-op because their bodies cannot tolerate the GRS. Some have had a castration and penectomy with the urethra moved to the normal position on the female body. To them a skirt and top does not a transsexual make. They have gone as far as they can and are not transgendered. Ask anyone who is in that situation and they will be most enlightening.
There are those who cannot pay for the full GRS and for that reason go as far as they can. They have every and all intent of being as close to their desired, non-birth gender as possible and they do what they can to be that way.
Transsexuals will move heaven and earth to be the gender they need to be, to make their bodies congruent with their hearts, souls, minds, personalities, views, etc.
Transgendered persons, in my sole opinion, have no desire to change their bodies because their bodies and minds are already in harmony. They need no changes except maybe whatever they wear in passing through their gender roles.
Sex may be defined by the genitals but gender goes much further and one's delight or dysphoria isn't solely determined by the appearance of the genitals. What of our brothers and sisters who are born xxy or xxxy? They might well be dysphoric by default and surgery could be their only recourse.
F to M persons may never get their surgery but I believe that it is in their hearts to make their bodies ***as congruent as possible.*** They have their reasons which likely don't include being able to call themselves transgendered.
Who am I to say such a thing? I sincerely, deeply, and greatly apologize to my F to M brothers but I wrote as I did to make my illustration of the TS continuum, and its difference from being transgendered as clear as I possibly could.
When ya get to the bottom line, it's the "bottom line" that makes the difference.
Humbly,
Wing Walker
Flying to GRS in July (I hope)
Personally, I don't care what label you wear. Me, I want surgery. The next gal down the line doesn't, for whatever reason. If she says she identifies as female though and feels she is a transsexual, who am I to deny her expression of self, and for that matter, who is the government? If you wish to be identified by a gender other than that of your birth, nobody has the right to deny you that. Official records should reflect that, and when it comes to bathrooms, screw it: Build single loo, unisex bathrooms. Relieves both physical and social pressure that way.
Annwynn, No comon, no transsexual is gonna molest your child, especially if you are a good a parent, i mean if you are a bad parent and let you child wander for hours then your chances are slimmer, but...
And Beyond,
NO, non op TS men and woman are also Transsexual... Stop trying to redefine Transsexual... :police:
_______________________________________________________
Back to this post, yes I do believe that it should be legal to change our birth certificates without SRS, some people go 20 years without getting it after living full time.... And then there are non-op TS woman, that are forced to live as male, is the line LEGALLY really based on genitals, thats whats whack....
Here here, to all the prior posts BTW,
PS. Cindi you are always so nice and calm.
Re: Gender change without SRS?
Is SRS the protocol to being or being percieved as female? I have seen ->-bleeped-<-s (and some girls who don't want SRS) that look absolutely stunning and very female in every way physically. I've also seen quite a few male to female transsexuals who have had SRS who look positively male.......so gender change is far more complexed that a genital operation would imply..
I personally want SRS but is there something else going on here?
So I would have to say yes.....Gender change without SRS is possible for some people..
Quote from: lady amarant on March 09, 2008, 04:16:52 AM
Personally, I don't care what label you wear. Me, I want surgery. The next gal down the line doesn't, for whatever reason. If she says she identifies as female though and feels she is a transsexual, who am I to deny her expression of self, and for that matter, who is the government? If you wish to be identified by a gender other than that of your birth, nobody has the right to deny you that. Official records should reflect that, and when it comes to bathrooms, screw it: Build single loo, unisex bathrooms. Relieves both physical and social pressure that way.
Hello, Lady Amarant,
Wonderful to live in an ideal world, isn't it?
Wing Walker
Berliegh,
You can change you Driver License no problem almost any state pre op or non op.
But to get your passport or birth certificate done up right, you have to have SRS, or some get away with just a orchieo.
But basically it states that the court will not grant it without SRS, WHICH I think is BULL, All I think should have to happen is for the individual to reach a point where they have changed thier body beyond reversal.
Sounds good to me, I dont know the laws for the UK though.. or canada, or anywhere but here.
Quote from: mara on March 09, 2008, 05:21:48 PM
Berliegh,
You can change you Driver License no problem almost any state pre op or non op.
But to get your passport or birth certificate done up right, you have to have SRS, or some get away with just a orchieo.
But basically it states that the court will not grant it without SRS, WHICH I think is BULL, All I think should have to happen is for the individual to reach a point where they have changed thier body beyond reversal.
Sounds good to me, I dont know the laws for the UK though.. or canada, or anywhere but here.
In the U.K you have to change your passport and drivers licence before SRS. Only then will the NHS shrinks (Psychiatrists) will allow a referral for SRS. I changed all my ID in 2003 but I still haven't been granted an NHS referral for SRS. I have now had to re-locate in order to try and access a referral from another part of the country.
There are a lot of people from the U.K going overseas to access SRS as it's very hard to get referrals here. The flip side is that a transsexual friend of mine changed all her ID in 1994 but didn't ever want SRS....the NHS (Charing Cross GIC) continue to pester her for SRS even though she has told them time and time again she doesn't want it........so basically they (Charing Cross GIC) will do the opposite of the individuals needs....
Quote from: Zythyra on January 05, 2008, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Re: Gender change without SRS.
....and I'm stuck with it....unless I can move to America?
COme on over :)
We have a wonderful president, and another one about to fill his big shoes. Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;D Hope I didn't ruin the thread. Samantha
And pop goes the Wiesel.
Cindy
Quote from: samanthawhalen on March 17, 2008, 03:38:57 PM
Quote from: Zythyra on January 05, 2008, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on January 05, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Re: Gender change without SRS.
....and I'm stuck with it....unless I can move to America?
COme on over :)
We have a wonderful president, and another one about to fill his big shoes. Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;D Hope I didn't ruin the thread. Samantha
If course you are absolutely right but the U.K politicians are just as bad.... ;D
Quote from: Wing Walker on March 09, 2008, 02:35:44 PM
Hello, Lady Amarant,
Wonderful to live in an ideal world, isn't it?
Wing Walker
I am an idealist. I believe we can change society for the better. Women fought for and gained equal (okay, on paper anyway) rights. Coloured people fought for and gained equal (again, on paper) rights. Society has no right to offer us any less.
To the degree that good people are willing to honestly look at problems and work toward solutions, change is possible.
Quote from: Berliegh on March 17, 2008, 04:31:17 PM
If course you are absolutely right but the U.K politicians are just as bad.... ;D
I don't know that anyone is as bad as what we've had for the last 8 years.... but come on over anyway! We'd love to have you. :)
Z
Hard to imagine anything worse than the last 7 years.
The past 100 years.
Cindy
Quote from: Beyond on March 08, 2008, 07:48:33 AMThe problem here is over the last decade people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". Why can't they just accept that they're transgendered?
I see something different from this happening: The word
transsexual is becoming ignored altogether in public discourse and replaced with "transgender(ed)." My theory as to why this is:
Transgender has only 3 syllables while
transsexual has 4, and people are basically lazy. But I agree with you that the distinction shouldn't be lost.
Actually, I practically never use the word "transgender" at all any more, because to me it's such a vague catchall umbrella term, it has no useful meaning. It obscures important differences and makes us transsexuals disappear. I say I'm transsexual because it gives a precise meaning, and I wish the word were not dying out. If I have to call myself "transgender" it doesn't really convey who I am.
QuoteOne thing I find particularly gauling is the origin of the word "transgendered". The term was coined by someone who was a full-time crossdresser. They didn't even claim to have ANY feelings of dysphoria, it was about the clothes. Further this person claimed transsexuals didn't exist! That person, who went by a female name, obviously doesn't speak for me.
True-- the word has a vile anti-transsexual history-- but the way it's used has evolved, and in the present day it's used to include transsexuals, so that our particular transsexual identities and needs are subsumed in the larger category and obscured.
Hi Hypatia, I agree absolutely that transsexuals are unique and what sets them apart is there wanting, or having an irresistible desire that will not be squelched until we become as female as they can be. Anything else under what ever umbrella have no desire to go all the way. But I guess I'm a wanderer, I go and I talk to cross dressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, or any other variety of trans what ever and of course my friends the androgen's, I really do love those guys, and I am also here especially for the young-uns, I love the young folks. My main purpose is to help or support anyone who is in need. So yes we want to have our own unique classification, apart from any other, we are a unique minority who have unique problems, nothing wrong with that, for us that's our normal needs, but let us not get to full of ourselves is all. We can work together and still keep our identity. At least I believe that is the way this board was set up to operate. Way different then I remember 8 years ago.
Cindy
despite who created the word Transgender, all the different niches that one can fit into in the transgender category are really just different levels of expression of the essentially same thing.
Quote from: cindybc on March 17, 2008, 06:15:59 PM
The past 100 years.
Cindy
Really! The Bush years have been a cake walk compared to the 20th century. Two world wars, millions dead (20 million for Russia alone). We're upset about 4000 killed in Iraq over 5 years. Both the French and the Brits lost 25,000 soldiers in a single day during WW I. And let's not forget the Great Depression and the Cold War along with countless regional conflicts.
Ladies, we have not begun to suffer in the New Millenia! :'(
Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 20, 2008, 07:41:48 PM
Ladies, we have not begun to suffer in the New Millenia! :'(
Oh give it time. We will. If nothing else, trust us to keep cutting our collective nose off to spite our collective face.
Quote from: mara on March 20, 2008, 06:23:34 PM
despite who created the word Transgender, all the different niches that one can fit into in the transgender category are really just different levels of expression of the essentially same thing.
I don't agree. I don't think I have anything in common with a drag king/queen or a crossdresser. They don't have a problem with gender identity, they're happy being who they are. And besides that those are part-time pursuits. I was born with a brain-body mismatch, a birth condition. I have always been female and to lead a happy and fulfilling life I had to change my body and social role. Now achieved I blend back into society as just another women. Those others don't. Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things. I blend. And when I say that it's not through conscious effort, it's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that. Life is good.
Apologies. I am seriously edited this post to make it less inflammatory.]/i]
I'm getting pretty tired of this purist attitude, a transsexual elitist that doesn't have much of anything to do with reality, just bigotry and a bunch of mental disorders packaged along with GID.
Quote from: Beyond on March 21, 2008, 07:08:42 AM
They don't have a problem with gender identity
So people who present themselves as the opposite gender don't have issues with gender identity. Riiiiight.
QuoteI was born with a brain-body mismatch
Wow, sounds like some stuff that would go into medical history! Oh wait... I forgot. You were a female born with a male's body... I wonder how those XY/YY genes interact...
Quotea birth condition.
Really? I didn't know that the medical field had finally funded and researched exlusively what the cause of GID was. Talk about some ground breaking news.
Quote]I have always been female and to lead a happy and fulfilling life I had to change my body and social role.
Let me translate this for the general public.
"Oh hi, I'm better than all those crossdressers and stuff cuz I paid a surgeon. The end."
QuoteNow achieved I blend back into society as just another women. Those others don't. Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things.
By that definition then you were never female. You're simply a genitally altered male prancing around in female clothes, no better than a glorified crossdresser in the eyes of many who hold the same kind of bigotry you do.
Quoteit's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that. Life is good.
Uck. I'm glad you've found your path and that you're satisfied. However, quit holding others to one standard and yourself to another. If you're going to hold crossdressers and TG's, many of which are full time, accountable for being male, then you are too. YOu've still got XY. See what I'm saying? How shallowly are you willing to define gender?
QuoteHow shallowly are you willing to define gender?
As shallow as tradition and dogma fail to keep up with the physical realities of 21 century living.
Oh, I don't know, I like statements like: Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy). Its defining the answer by limiting the question. Clever stuff that. However, if its true, why should the majority of Transgender persons, who are not TS, then care anything about that smaller segment. After all, those issues are not my own.
"Oh check THOSE freaks! We have a medical condition, don't discriminate against US. Lets just all gang up and discriminate against them instead!"
Is this really the attitude we want to have after a lifetime of suffering hatred and bigotry ourselves? I'm sorry, but I cannot countenance that. Until EVERYBODY is free, treated equally, valued for WHO they are and what they contribute to society rather than for WHAT they are, we will never have equality. They might stop discriminating against you becaus of your TS, but they will discriminate because you are too tall, or because you aren't pretty enough, or because you went to a school they don't like, or WTF ever. We need to stop trying to fit in. Society needs to change, not us.
Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 09:29:59 AM
"Oh check THOSE freaks! We have a medical condition, don't discriminate against US. Lets just all gang up and discriminate against them instead!"
Is this really the attitude we want to have after a lifetime of suffering hatred and bigotry ourselves? I'm sorry, but I cannot countenance that.
Ai->-bleeped-<-e Imasu.
I.
Love.
You.
There is more than a bit of the exceptionalism of suffering going on in the community.
Quote from: BeyondThose others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things. I blend. And when I say that it's not through conscious effort, it's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that. Life is good.
So why are you here? If you're not trans-anything why post on a transgender forum board?
Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 21, 2008, 10:19:18 AM
Quote from: BeyondThose others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things. I blend. And when I say that it's not through conscious effort, it's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that. Life is good.
So why are you here? If you're not trans-anything why post on a transgender forum board?
I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......
Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:35:38 AM
I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......
Hey, that's fine, but don't adopt an attitude of "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you." Transsexual people run the risk of doing exactly the same thing to other gender variant people as some sections of the Gay and Lesbian community do to us. We would happily sell them out if it would win us equality and acceptance. It's that attitude that I can't agree with, not the fact that some people just want to fade into the background and live their lives.
I think, perhaps even worse than that, is that "I'm not alright, screw the rest of you." Most of this gender stuff for us - and for the 'normal' world too, is a matter of degrees.
Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 10:41:02 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:35:38 AM
I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......
Hey, that's fine, but don't adopt an attitude of "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you." Transsexual people run the risk of doing exactly the same thing to other gender variant people as some sections of the Gay and Lesbian community do to us. We would happily sell them out if it would win us equality and acceptance. It's that attitude that I can't agree with, not the fact that some people just want to fade into the background and live their lives.
I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..
Again, its a matter of degrees. Where some might choose to hide it, other wish to celebrate it.
Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:47:44 AM
I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..
If the ENDA had included transsexuals, but excluded other forms of transgender, how many TS people would have been arguing EXACTLY the same line of "we take what we can get now and fight for the rest later." That's my point here.
Stealth is the right of every one of us, and I don't blame ANYBODY for doing so. But statements starting with "Those people..." are dangerous, because it immediately builds a wall. Yes, TS isn't the same as Crossdressing, but to make blanket statements like crossdressers not having a problem with Gender Identity and the like is wrong. We don't know that. We don't know what makes an Androgyne or a CD or a Genderqueer individual or whatever else tick any more than we do ourselves. There are theories galore, but ultimately IT DOESN'T matter. We each are what we are, and should not be judged for it. How we act is what defines us.
If you want to be stealth, fine, but if you are going to fight for rights, fight for the rights of all, or you are no better than the people you are fighting against.
First of all, if you are going to 'fight for rights' someone has to be out in public. We don't do that in secret in Western nations.
Second, so someone gets beat up somewhere for not expressing gender right. Does it matter how much HRT they had, or what they were under it all? I doubt it. We make a lot out of a distinction in here that all but eludes people on the outside. While undergoing the real life test, exactly what is the diff with a CD? Barring a long winded and very converse argument, not much to the general public.
I've gotten some feedback from members pissed about my, "glorified crossdresser" remark.
The fact is that some transsexuals can't see past being a transsexual, past their own transition. They are INCAPABLE of seeing anything but, "oh wow I'm this gender now and I'm so happy purely because I'm this gender. Who am I? Oh I'm this gender. Weee."
So tell me, what's the difference between someone being like, "oh I'm so happy tonight because I'm a girl" all night and, "oh I'm so happy because I'm a girl" for the rest of her life?
I don't see a difference.
Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 11:13:19 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:47:44 AM
I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..
If the ENDA had included transsexuals, but excluded other forms of transgender, how many TS people would have been arguing EXACTLY the same line of "we take what we can get now and fight for the rest later." That's my point here.
Stealth is the right of every one of us, and I don't blame ANYBODY for doing so. But statements starting with "Those people..." are dangerous, because it immediately builds a wall. Yes, TS isn't the same as Crossdressing, but to make blanket statements like crossdressers not having a problem with Gender Identity and the like is wrong. We don't know that. We don't know what makes an Androgyne or a CD or a Genderqueer individual or whatever else tick any more than we do ourselves. There are theories galore, but ultimately IT DOESN'T matter. We each are what we are, and should not be judged for it. How we act is what defines us.
If you want to be stealth, fine, but if you are going to fight for rights, fight for the rights of all, or you are no better than the people you are fighting against.
I haven't made any posts with the sentence..'Those people'....who are you referring to? and why complain about those who are stealth. They have rights to remain as such and you are complaining in the same way as the people you condem..
There is one huge difference, there is somewhere within TS rights an issue of money, which changes everything. Other than that, we're talking about presentation. I know CDs who can pass, and TS who can't - and a lot the other way too.
Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 11:44:52 AM
I haven't made any posts with the sentence..'Those people'....who are you referring to? and why complain about those who are stealth. They have rights to remain as such and you are complaining in the same way as the people you condem..
Wasn't referring to you, Berleigh.
Quote from: Beyond on March 21, 2008, 07:08:42 AM
Those others don't. Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy.
And as I keep saying, I have NO problem with people being in stealth and not being activists. But activist or stealth, or somewhere inbetween, we do not have the luxury of being bigots ourselves.
Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2008, 11:19:50 AMWhile undergoing the real life test, exactly what is the diff with a CD?
In a word:
Hormones.
Under supervision of a doctor or not? How about people who can't take them? Popping a pill can't be the borderline. I think its at once, far more subtle than that, and not even in the vocabulary of the general public. Its a distinction that we have trouble with, and if we don't agree, how can the general public?
Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2008, 12:44:43 PM
Under supervision of a doctor or not?
I was responding to the phrase that you used, "real life test," which is a term of art that implies going according to the standard HBSOC which includes medically supervised hormones. How many CDs use hormones from any source vs. how many TSs, on the whole?
QuoteHow about people who can't take them?
There are always exceptions to the rule, so what. The exceptions don't define the core of the categories, although they can make the boundaries fuzzy.
QuotePopping a pill can't be the borderline.
Not the act of taking the hormones, but the underlying reasons for taking the hormones are essential to the definition.
In any social science there are lumpers and splitters. Compare any two phenomena, you're likely to find both similarities and differences between them. Are the similarities more important or are the differences more important?
Perhaps its the SOC stuff, which is used more anymore as a guideline in the US, and often not at all. There are more options all the time, and in finding more options, the temptation is to draw the wagons closer, when it should be a matter of opening it up, not closing it down.
Quote from: Hypatia on March 21, 2008, 12:41:46 PM
Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2008, 11:19:50 AMWhile undergoing the real life test, exactly what is the diff with a CD?
In a word:
Hormones.
I know CD's who are on hormones..
Taking hormones doesn't automatically make you transsexual..
That too, there is a thread going on here about just that. So that can't be the hard, fast line. Or can it?
IHi I just got this, any oppinions?
http://www.slate.com/id/2186445/?GT1=38000
Cindy
That's the lamest sex advice column I've ever seen. Dan Savage has nothing to worry about! :D