I once asked my therapist about my dysphoria symptoms, because honestly I didn't know. I didn't even know what dysphoria was until I began facing the truth about my gender. I've battled depression, anger issues, and a dislike for my body, but never knew that was dysphoria screaming at me. My therapist said that the real test is taking HRT. She said that once a trans person undergoes HRT they feel better in areas they never knew were hurting. This has me excited about taking hormones. It also has me wondering about something else:
Hypothetically speaking, what would a cisgender man experience if he were to undergo MTF HRT? Just curious.
That's a real good question. I've heard that idea before and wondered the same thing.
Hugs, Jessica
I imagine he would be displeased with the Emotional changes and boobs!
Lacy
Hugs,
Lacy
What I've heard is that they feel tired and uncomfortable.
I imagine it's the same sensations, just different interpretations of what they mean
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Quote from: Danielle Kristina on November 14, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
I once asked my therapist about my dysphoria symptoms, because honestly I didn't know. I didn't even know what dysphoria was until I began facing the truth about my gender. I've battled depression, anger issues, and a dislike for my body, but never knew that was dysphoria screaming at me. My therapist said that the real test is taking HRT. She said that once a trans person undergoes HRT they feel better in areas they never knew were hurting. This has me excited about taking hormones. It also has me wondering about something else:
Hypothetically speaking, what would a cisgender man experience if he were to undergo MTF HRT? Just curious.
Hi Danielle Kristina,
Middle aged men - (post andropause ) seem to report a lift in mood, libido, motivation, cognitive function, focus & drive if they take supplemental testosterone.
I tried this under medical supervision when the black dog was visiting me at age 46. I didn't know it was Gender Dysphoria at the time. Funnily my desire to be a woman was impossible to shake as I had done before - the penny still didn't drop though ! The testosterone sent my "issue" into overdrive( in the worst way ).
Ironically starting MTF HRT reduced the all consuming desire to be a woman & I gained focus, drive, motivation, improved mood & better social interaction. Peace, serenity & happiness reigned. Operating with a female hormone profile seems to work for us XY women.
I would love to hear your HRT experience when it unfolds,
kindest regards, Kirsten.
I was placed on testosterone for a few years starting at age 16. I became irritable, depressed, prone to anger, and lost my ability to handle complex mathematics in my head. I was unable to focus on complex tasks.
I was placed on an antiandrogen, spironolactone, at age 62. After several weeks I began to experience periods of great calm, in which I could readily focus on complex tasks. Some of my old mathematics skill came back. With estradiol, I felt more energetic, more connected to myself, and that calm state became my new normal. I also gained easier access to emotional states.
Quote from: Michelle_P on November 15, 2018, 12:19:05 AM
I was placed on testosterone for a few years starting at age 16. I became irritable, depressed, prone to anger, and lost my ability to handle complex mathematics in my head. I was unable to focus on complex tasks.
I was placed on an antiandrogen, spironolactone, at age 62. After several weeks I began to experience periods of great calm, in which I could readily focus on complex tasks. Some of my old mathematics skill came back. With estradiol, I felt more energetic, more connected to myself, and that calm state became my new normal. I also gained easier access to emotional states.
I can't wait to begin HRT. My therapist says that though I may not notice the physical differences right away, I should notice internal changes fairly early. She says I'll feel a whole lot better. And reading the positive changes you and many others who've been on HRT have shared makes me want to do it all the more!!!
Hugs!!
Danielle
Quote from: Danielle Kristina on November 14, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
Hypothetically speaking, what would a cisgender man experience if he were to undergo MTF HRT? Just curious.
Quote from: Danielle Kristina on November 15, 2018, 12:55:04 AM
I can't wait to begin HRT. My therapist says that though I may not notice the physical differences right away, I should notice internal changes fairly early. She says I'll feel a whole lot better. And reading the positive changes you and many others who've been on HRT have shared makes me want to do it all the more!!!
Hugs!!
Danielle
Hello again Danielle
I believe a cisman on MTF HRT would become depressed and uncomfortable and feel almost "alien". Hopefully he would come off it asap.
I hope you are soon able to start HRT and I wish you every success and happiness therein. I have greatly benefitted just like Kirsten. I agree sense of peace is usually first sign and the early physical sign is softer and smoother skin.
Hugs
Pamela
No need to wander around Hypotheticalland, cisgender men go on hormones every day.
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/prostate-cancer/treating/hormone-therapy.html
Somewhat touching on this, what if a cis-male has his penis removed?
http://www.cracked.com/article_22462_6-things-i-learned-having-my-penis-surgically-removed.html
Apparently it's quite devastating.
I couldn't help but think if you going to do that you may as well go the entrie way and get a vagina, because surely that's better than nothing? Perhaps I'm not understanding something...
You're going to take another topic way off topic, but some people want to switch genitals. Some people want both genitals. Some people want no genitals. It's really that simple.
I can delete it if it's not appropriate, but point was that it's not just hormones. It goes beyond that, and it's an interesting example that you don't often come across.
I've tried to find personal stories of cis men on estrogen therapy in the past and never found one. Just the usual list of side effects.
At the risk of going off topic again, there was a great post recently from a cis women who too testesterone. It's fascinating.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,230174.0.html
Quote from: Devlyn on November 15, 2018, 07:20:05 AM
No need to wander around Hypotheticalland, cisgender men go on hormones every day.
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/prostate-cancer/treating/hormone-therapy.html
Hi Devlyn,
I would think that the hormones they undergo are not to the extent that transgender women undergo, as it would likely induce dysphoria if they did. While it brings us relief as we are trans, it would do the opposite for cismen. So wouldn't the hormones that cismen with prostate cancer be of lesser doses or less powerful? Just curious.
Danielle.
Did you look at the link? The side effects are breasts and low energy.
Quote from: Devlyn on November 15, 2018, 04:09:45 PM
Did you look at the link? The side effects are breasts and low energy.
I would still think that even though cismen experience breasts and low energy that they would not be given the same dosage as a person undergoing transition, though I could be wrong.
A cis male wouldn't be on hrt? Typically speaking I mean. If he had to for whatever reason, I'm sure the side effects would be covered the same way it is for transgender people. I'd imagine secondary female characteristics would be a warning and the person may be offered alternative options... If there are any
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Quote from: Angela H on November 14, 2018, 09:00:06 PM
What I've heard is that they feel tired and uncomfortable.
This was my understanding as well. That a cis man on feminine HRT would feel tired and fatigued. And a trans woman on feminine HRT would feel more energy and think more clearly. As a trans woman, that was my experience. And from reading the responses here, other trans women here share that experience.
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Quote from: Danielle Kristina on November 15, 2018, 04:06:44 PM
Hi Devlyn,
I would think that the hormones they undergo are not to the extent that transgender women undergo, as it would likely induce dysphoria if they did. While it brings us relief as we are trans, it would do the opposite for cismen. So wouldn't the hormones that cismen with prostate cancer be of lesser doses or less powerful? Just curious.
Danielle.
It's my understanding that HRT against cancer is actually a much higher dose than transgender women take.. the 'side effect' is considered minor against... well.. not dying.
Cancer is terrible.
Quote from: Allison S on November 15, 2018, 05:12:35 PM
A cis male wouldn't be on hrt? Typically speaking I mean. If he had to for whatever reason, I'm sure the side effects would be covered the same way it is for transgender people.
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Yes Allison. Indeed as there have been until recently many more Cismen taking HRT for cancer prevention than Transwomen taking HRT, I would think the side effects would in fact be better covered.
Hugs
Pamela
Quote from: Anastasia E on November 16, 2018, 02:35:12 AM
It's my understanding that HRT against cancer is actually a much higher dose than transgender women take.. the 'side effect' is considered minor against... well.. not dying.
Cancer is terrible.
Hello Anastasia
That is interesting, thank you.
Whereas we as transwomen are customarily but not always on Estradiol and T Blocker, I assume customarily but not always the HRT cismen would be prescribed would be T Blocker?
Hugs
Pamela
Quote from: pamelatransuk on November 16, 2018, 05:34:14 AM
Hello Anastasia
That is interesting, thank you.
Whereas we as transwomen are customarily but not always on Estradiol and T Blocker, I assume customarily but not always the HRT cismen would be prescribed would be T Blocker?
Hugs
Pamela
That is my understanding, yes :) I think the goal is to 'starve' the prostate and prevent the cancer from growing.
It came up when reading up on Androcur (which I take). Apparently the 'myth' about it causing liver damage comes from cancer patients typically taking many times our prescribed dosis.
Thank you Anastasia and may I take this opportunity of wishing you every happiness on your HRT journey which I see you have just started. It is a wonderful and memorable feeling as you start, isn't it?
So happy for you!
Hugs
Pamela
One thing that can happen to cis men on testosterone replacement, is that excessive conversion of testosterone into estradiol can take place, pushing estradiol levels up towards the female range. The result, from what I've seen people saying, is that it undoes all the beneficial effects of testosterone, and makes that person feel terrible. This is a list I saw posted of the symptoms that can occur:
* Depression
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Anxiety
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Gynecomastia
* Water Retention
* Dizziness/Vertigo
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* ED
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left
untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
Basically, if going on estradiol HRT makes you feel awful, you're probably not trans, whereas if it makes you feel energised, more alive, happier and more at peace with yourself, then it's a good indication that you have a female brain, and really are trans. I get a mixture of the two effects, which is another thing that makes me think my brain is partly male and partly female.
Quote from: pamelatransuk on November 16, 2018, 07:54:53 AM
Thank you Anastasia and may I take this opportunity of wishing you every happiness on your HRT journey which I see you have just started. It is a wonderful and memorable feeling as you start, isn't it?
So happy for you!
Hugs
Pamela
Thank you so much! Yes, I am estatic. Haven't noticed much changing so far, but patience is a virtue :) Also can't stop touching this estrogen patch haha.. almost can't believe it.
Quote from: Anastasia E on November 16, 2018, 02:35:12 AM
It's my understanding that HRT against cancer is actually a much higher dose than transgender women take.. the 'side effect' is considered minor against... well.. not dying.
Cancer is terrible.
And ironically, in the cancer treatment link I gave earlier, it mentioned that they have moved away
from estrogens because... clotting and stroke risks.
Standing aside for the tide of posts saying:
"That's unsubstantiated, only conjugated horse urine causes clots and strokes"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
My Uncle had prostate cancer they treated with estrogen. I guess he was on for five years or so. He wasn't so big in the first place. In the end he was down around 120 lbs. He wore a binder.
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This is certainly and interesting topic for me and one I have wondered about for a long time.
I have been on HRT for going on 3 years and originally thought it would be a good test to see if I was indeed trans, as my gender therapist said. I wanted to know absolutely for sure in my own mind, and figured HRT would be a good test. At first, it appeared that I was transgender because I instantly felt better and I truly enjoyed and appreciated the effects of E, like less body hair, growing small, but yes, they really are boobs, and filling out some in the thighs.
However, after a being on HRT for a while, I also noticed that I often felt more tired, and just sort of run down, but not what I would call depressed. Just a bit run down and had less energy. So then I went back on testosterone (I've had my orchi so I have to take one hormone or the other), and for the first week or so I always felt pretty good. But then the bad things start happening, and I see all of them on the list posted above by HughH. I begin to experience anxiety issues, and often have a panic attack, I don't sleep well at night, and my blood pressure goes really high. My BP is high enough that I realize if I don't do something about it, it will no doubt cut my life short. So I end up giving myself a dose of estrogen and within a couple of days my blood pressure begins to fall and I start feeling more calm and relaxed.
I have cycled between the two hormones any number of times over the past several years and the results are always the same. The nurse for my HRT doctor said I likely need both hormones and my GP suggested that as well during my last exam. When I see my HRT doctor next time I intend to ask her about using a combination of both hormones and how that might be best accomplished.
So I still have no idea of exactly where I am on the gender chart, but someday soon I hope to find it.
There is anecdotal evidence that the opposite hormone will create negative feelings while the matching hormone for the wiring of the brain will not. That is a pretty broad statement though. It seems somewhere in those prenatal sexually dimorphic brain regions, something works better on one sex hormone than the other. There doesn't seem to be any research into finding this out scientifically yet.
Many men who did take estrogen therapy for prostate cancer did report experiencing what we commonly report as dysphoria. These days men get treated with androgen blockers like bicalutamide and DHT blockers like finasteride and duteraside more often than estrogen therapy.
So it does appear on the surface anyway, that as a generalization, cis men will feel the dysphoric mental effects on estrogen and cis women will feel it on testosterone. Kind of the same as I felt, what I can only describe to people as a level of background anxiety that I didn't even know was there until it was gone, as such relief when estrogen became the major hormone in my body.
This doesn't seem to apply to everyone. I know of some who call themselves non-binary that do not really feel better on either hormone, so there is no set in stone rule when it comes to hormones.
Quote from: Phlox1 on December 05, 2018, 04:03:23 PM
However, after a being on HRT for a while, I also noticed that I often felt more tired, and just sort of run down, but not what I would call depressed. Just a bit run down and had less energy. So then I went back on testosterone (I've had my orchi so I have to take one hormone or the other), and for the first week or so I always felt pretty good. But then the bad things start happening, and I see all of them on the list posted above by HughH. I begin to experience anxiety issues, and often have a panic attack, I don't sleep well at night, and my blood pressure goes really high. My BP is high enough that I realize if I don't do something about it, it will no doubt cut my life short. So I end up giving myself a dose of estrogen and within a couple of days my blood pressure begins to fall and I start feeling more calm and relaxed.
One really common mistake doctors prescribing T replacement make, is to administer the T in doses too large spaced too far apart. They do this because they tend to be unwilling to let us administer the stuff ourselves, and giving the patient injections is an inconvenience for them, so they try to minimise the number injections by giving it in infrequent, overly large doses. This causes the T to spike up to a very high level soon after the injection (far higher than occurs naturally), which causes the body to convert the excess into estrogen at a very high rate. Then, as time goes by, the T level drops further and further, and is far below where it should be before the time for the next injection comes around. This has awful effects on the patient, who gets a short period of good T effects before a massive estrogen surge cancels out all those good effects, and produces the side effects in that list instead. That followed by a period of very low T, during which all their symptoms of hypogonadism re-emerge, before the next injection is given and the cycle repeats.
Maybe that's what you were experiencing? Test C or test E injections should be given no further than 1 week apart, otherwise the effects I described are likely to occur. There are other formulations that are supposedly longer acting and suitable for less frequent injections, but from what I've seen people saying, that's just marketing spin from the pharma companies.
I self inject and have tried all sorts of dosages ranging from the normal "standard" T dosage to quite small. Most of the time things seem to go well for a week or longer, but then the bad side effects always return.
I am back on E now and I wish I could just stay on it. I was at the end of my E cycle last night and gave myself a new injection of E just before I got into bed. Then this morning I could feel it in me about 12 hours after that injection I felt so absolutely wonderful it made me think I really must be trans. It's like it's the nectar of the Gods and my body craves it. I suspect that some of the tiredness I feel after a while might be due to lack of sleep. I know I don't get enough sleep on most nights.
Quote from: HughE on December 11, 2018, 06:07:27 AM
One really common mistake doctors prescribing T replacement make, is to administer the T in doses too large spaced too far apart. They do this because they tend to be unwilling to let us administer the stuff ourselves, and giving the patient injections is an inconvenience for them, so they try to minimise the number injections by giving it in infrequent, overly large doses.
Danielle
Please forgive me for diverting this thread but please allow me to just ask one question of Hugh.
Hugh
I note your comments refer to injections of T. As you know some of us are on injections of E and some of us on injections to block T. I am in fact on the blocker Decapetyl/Triptorelin as is customary in UK and the injection should last for 12 weeks. Several other transgirls have told me that they experience side effects of feeling ill/sick in the first few days and also that it has "run out" by 10 or 11 weeks. I have only been on it for 17 weeks and cannot yet judge.
Could it also be possible that the 12 week period is a tad too long and that perhaps it should be administered at lower doses more often or at the same dose for 8/9/10 weeks instead please? Thanking you.
Hugs to you both
Pamela
Sorry Pamela, I don't know, my HRT is to increase my T rather than reduce it. There are probably people here who are being given decapeptyl as part of their HRT though, who could give you a better idea of what to expect from it than I can.
Gonna caveat this by acknowledging I'm not sure I follow all the comments on this thread. Therefore, I simply add my own experience.
I did the antidepressant thing at the doctors request, on & off, for 25 years. I've done Prosac, Paxil, Effexor, Celexa and a handful of others.
All I ever got were the side effects.
I finally found a transition coach (therapist), came out to my wife and my Primary Care Physician. I'm now off the antidepressants, and on hormones.
I'm feeling peace I've missed for over 55 years.
You can call me a Cis Man or a Transgender Woman. I don't care anymore. I just know I've finally found my peace. How far I go, and where this transition journey leads me; I don't know.
With the peace I've found, I've already achieved my goal / won.
Kate
Hugh
Thank you for your reply yesterday.
I hope to meet you at the next UK Meet up in March/April if you are free to attend.
Danielle
I now return this thread to you as promised.
Hugs
Pamela
There are cisgender men who desire breast development and take estrogenic substances to achieve it. There are cisgender men who take estrogenic substances to achieve certain mental benefits. A common concern of these men is the loss of male sexual function and fertility. Some will go off estrogen on a schedule to counter these inevitable effects.
We must remember that both sex and gender identity fall on a spectrum. Predicting how changing your T/E hormone balance will affect you will quite often turn out to be wrong. You'll just have to try it, preferably under the supervision of a qualified doctor.
Keep in mind that some men's feminine proclivities are induced by their body's natural testosterone production. When taking estrogen, and thus driving down their testosterone levels, the desire to cross-dress, for example, disappears. On the surface, it appears that taking estrogen resolves the gender identity conflict. But as soon as they stop taking estrogen, their natural testosterone levels are restored and the cross-dressing urge returns.
When people fall closer to the center of the 'sex spectrum', a gender tug of war often ensues, producing the diversity of gender identities that we witness today (bi-gender, gender-fluid, non-binary, etc.). It is my personal observation that relatively few in-the-middle gender males resort to medical intervention to address perceived conflicts or reservations they have about their gender identities. Doing so compromises their sexual identities as males which is not something they want to completely abandon. This is unlike those born male who have no desire to be male and eagerly seek medical treatment to correct what they see as a ghastly mistake of nature.
The evidence points to the fact that the number of people who seek medical transition to the opposite sex are relatively few compared to the 1.7 million who identify as transgender. I don't find that surprising given nature's strong bias toward mind-body congruency. Be that as it may, the in-between sexes have been with us from ancient times. Cultural and religious gender standards have for centuries forced in-between people to conform to the binary model. Now, in today's less oppressive cultural environment, we find ourselves having a choice as to how to express our unique gender identities, and it's causing many to make choices they might never otherwise make, learning, instead, to cope with their gender issues.
The unfortunate truth is that society is not fully on-board with the gender spectrum. Coming out to a spouse after marriage with children is often fraught with heartbreak and dislocated lives. In this more progressive cultural state that we find ourselves, more and more gender dysphoric people are coming out to their families with devastating consequences. I always caution those struggling with the decision to first accept the possibility that you will lose the people you love, and a lot more. Once you come out of the closet to a loved one, there's no way to go back.
If you treasure your love relationship, but decide the risk of revealing your secret is worth it, the chances of preserving that relationship are much better if you make the transition together with both of you open to compromise.
Don't rush into this. It could be the most important decision you'll ever make. Good luck.
Quote from: Danielle Kristina on November 15, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
I would still think that even though cismen experience breasts and low energy that they would not be given the same dosage as a person undergoing transition, though I could be wrong.
The doses are usually much higher and almost always administered via IM injection, resulting in much higher levels. There are those of us out there who are following a similar protocol for MtF HRT with good results.
Estradiol doses for trans women are not at all high when compared to doses used in other areas of medicine.
I was told I was a CIS Man all my life. So I tried and tried to make it so. I had a wife that was every boys dream. A beautiful, intelligent, nympho. Unfortunately it was the latter that I could not handle well. I would retreat into my secret world for a few hours everyday and she eventually found out about it and had an affair. Before my second wife and I married, I told her I cross dressed to which she never brought it up again. I was able to quell the desire to cross dress for a few years while my kids grew up but when it returned it returned with an all consuming vengeance and I could no longer not acknowledge the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Two visits to the therapist and I was assured of what I had known pretty much all my life. I began HRT 2 1/2 years ago and no longer suffer depression, anger. I no longer have non existent self esteem. My step is a little lighter, my thoughts are less negative. I seek friendships now instead of closing everyone off. And luckily as I again experienced the other day at Christmas. Everyone loves me just as much as before when I was known as Dad. One last note. My Uncle was on HRT for prostrate cancer.
The same physical changes we embrace they would recoil from. Therefore if a "cismale" takes hrt he ain't really a cis male
Quote from: mako9802 on December 28, 2018, 06:49:21 AM
Therefore if a "cismale" takes hrt he ain't really a cis male
What if taken for medical reasons?
Quote from: AnneK on December 28, 2018, 08:39:46 AM
What if taken for medical reasons?
I may be wrong, but I think there's a distinction between hormone therapy and hormone replacement therapy.
I seem to be one of the persons, who do not really feel any reaction from HRT. My body has not changed, my emotions have not changed (only my feet swelled up).
My current endocrinologist has no idea what is going on, and that is the reason why I will be seeing the super duper transgender endo specialist next week.
It could be that my genetic makeup shows no real reaction to this stuff (as I know from my genome analysis, my body will not metabolize most opioides). It could be another chromosomal mutation, like the one I have not having had any wisdom teeth (chromosomal mutation called MYH16). I don't really know, what all in my body is caused by chromosomal mutations and what not, but my XXY symptoms surely did not help to make my body "normal"!
Quote from: mako9802 on December 28, 2018, 06:49:21 AM
The same physical changes we embrace they would recoil from. Therefore if a "cismale" takes hrt he ain't really a cis male
Unless he's taking it for other reasons, like prostate cancer.. And yes, there is a shift back to estradiol among oncologists - due to the lower risk profile they found when compared to antiandrogens.
Quote from: Devlyn on December 28, 2018, 09:23:37 AM
I may be wrong, but I think there's a distinction between hormone therapy and hormone replacement therapy.
Wouldn't hormone therapy eventually become hormone replacement therapy, as testosterone production shuts down?