Hi all,
While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.
I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.
Are there any tips on how to work through this?
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 06, 2019, 09:22:14 PM
Hi all,
While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.
I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.
Are there any tips on how to work through this?
You and I seem to be on the same page in the novel of Life. While I did sexually explore with my best friend, a boy, when we were younger, we never kissed and were both more interested in girls. I realized that when I was acting out my repressed feminine side, I was routinely thinking of him in a way that never crossed my male acting mind. As I am mentally exploring who my true self as Britney is, I found myself romantically thinking of a male Shipmate. He is a good friend and we have similar interests, tastes and character. At first, that weirded the heck out me. Not so much that he is a guy, but that he was a Shipmate and that I never thought of him that way prior. I have now accepted that heterosexuality as I transition. However, I believe that I will be homosexual, as I still find women attractively alluring. At this point, I am Bi in the spectrum. I have also been looking at aspects that are pan. Right now, I am the top of the mountain, trying to decide which path to journey down. There is just too much flux to say either way for me, at this point. One thing that I am for certain, when my mind and body get into synch, I will happily accept whichever one that I may be.
I was at my semi monthly trans group meeting last night and this topic came up. About 20 were in attendance - the majority are post transition and a few are currently transitioning. It is a discussion group for 90 minutes and then some go out afterward.
Regarding this topic there were several in the crowd that felt that their sexual orientation has evolved post transition. I think I include myself in that description. My primary attraction is still women but I have had mild crushes on 2 transwomen and I find guys sort of attractive now which I never did in the slightest before transition.
Also I have read several articles that postulate that post transition it is not uncommon for sexual orientation to evolve. Is it that you perceive yourself as more female? Is it the estrogen? IDK. And some people don't change at all. I think the point is not to fight however you feel. Just go with it. Be attracted to who you are attracted to and just be authentic.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 06, 2019, 09:22:14 PM
Hi all,
While I'd suspected it for a while about a month ago I confirmed that I was bi/pan. As I've gotten more comfortable with the idea I've even realized times in the past when I was attracted to guys. I can also remember being absolutely terrified of this back when I was first coming to terms with being trans.
I have been trying to pursue a relationship with a woman, but that isn't working too well right now. Part of me is considering trying to explore this other side of my sexuality, but I keep getting these feelings that it would be wrong to do that, and it would be some sort of barrier that I don't want to cross.
Are there any tips on how to work through this?
Self acceptance is SO hard as we all know through accepting being trans, but it's very similar. You have to be brutally honest with yourself and start to explore ideas (internet is VERY good for this!). There's no shame in it as we are the same as the animals who exhibit all sorts of sexual and romantic behaviour. You are attracted to who you are attracted to.
There are a few aspects to this though. Romantic attraction and sexual attraction. Have you ever had a crush on a guy or could see yourself doing so? That's a pretty good indicator of the romantic side. My earliest memory of a crush was on a boy at school when I was around 10, but I did nothing about it as I didn't want to get beaten up! The next episode was 8 years later when I started a sexual relationship with a family friend, but I fell in love and I got dumped when I wanted to come out to our families... oh well.
Sexually, I guess, try before you buy! Do you get turned on by guys when you see images or videos of them naked? That's usually a good sign. Years ago, I got so desperate that I tried an on-line hookup site (before smartphone apps) and just went and had sex with a guy. I was so desperate for sex that I did not care if I caught a disease and died, that's how much I wanted it and it was amazing and it confirmed a lot of things for me, now obviously I'm not suggesting that you do what I did! protection is always a good idea, but it did clarify a lot, well until his wife and daughter turned up but that's a different story!! lol ;D ;D ;D
I am trying to work through a sort of similar thing at the moment and that is internalised heterophobia, yes you read that right, HETEROphobia. Since I was old enough to understand I have regarded myself as bisexual, then pansexual then homosexual, then after I realised that I was trans, I now might actually be a heterosexual! This does not sit well with me as it's an alien concept but I do seem to have the same sexuality as a heterosexual woman. The sexuality fits but the label does not, so I think we are both being hung up on labels and their societal meaning which for both of us has negative connotations. I think we have to work through this and try to put behind us these negative concepts that we have learned growing up as they are unhealthy and are holding us back. I hope this drivel has helped a little. ;D ;D
V x
Quote from: VickyS on January 07, 2019, 10:52:41 AM
There are a few aspects to this though. Romantic attraction and sexual attraction. Have you ever had a crush on a guy or could see yourself doing so? That's a pretty good indicator of the romantic side.
My crushing on a guy is what finally confirmed for me that I was bi/pan. I'm still figuring out exactly what it is I find attractive, because with women I have a definite type, while the guys I've felt attraction to seem all over the place.
Being socialized male I've had a lot of guy friends, and there have been a few where the friendship felt different. This also sort of explains why I would sometimes wonder about kissing them. (This stuff is always so obvious in retrospect) As stated in my original post, when I think about being with a guy, especially since I haven't had bottom surgery, I get these feelings of "that's gay" and "I don't want to be one of THOSE people."
I know this is wrong, but de-gunkifying my brain of this stuff is a difficult process. While I come from a fairly conservative family we were never super religious, I can't imagine what lgbt people who grow up in fundamentalist households go through.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 07, 2019, 11:18:49 AM
My crushing on a guy is what finally confirmed for me that I was bi/pan.
Yeah, that's a pretty good sign. ;D
QuoteI'm still figuring out exactly what it is I find attractive, because with women I have a definite type, while the guys I've felt attraction to seem all over the place.
Well, kinda the same here. It's weird isn't it? I don't think I have a type any more. I used to like only very feminine looking men. Had a MAJOR crush on Boy George in the 80s ;D Later in life though I've seen big hairy super masculine men and found myself drooling over them. I suppose we like what we like although these days, personality and kindness is the biggest turn on for me.
QuoteBeing socialized male I've had a lot of guy friends, and there have been a few where the friendship felt different. This also sort of explains why I would sometimes wonder about kissing them. (This stuff is always so obvious in retrospect)
Yes, I know where you are coming from.
QuoteAs stated in my original post, when I think about being with a guy, especially since I haven't had bottom surgery, I get these feelings of "that's gay" and "I don't want to be one of THOSE people."
I think it's helpful to delve into WHY you don't want to be one of THOSE people. What is it exactly that's disgusting you? then explore that and demystify it. It might help to watch some gay content on youtube. Something like RuPaul's Drag race or the various off-shoots like trixie & katya, unhhhh, WOWpresents or any other LGBT programming. That might help de-sensitise you to gay culture and people as well as them being very entertaining and SO funny.
QuoteI know this is wrong, but de-gunkifying my brain of this stuff is a difficult process. While I come from a fairly conservative family we were never super religious, I can't imagine what lgbt people who grow up in fundamentalist households go through.
Oh it's extremely difficult to de-gunkify your brain and will take a very long time but it will come eventually although it might take years. I was brought up in Catholic schools and taught by nuns who used to beat me on occasion (not just me lol) that fear of god and being told he can see your every thought and to not have anything to do with girls (let alone boys) took a very long time to throw off. If I'm honest, I was probably in my 30s before I was finally free from any thoughts of a god being able to peer into my skull. It's a long process, but we'll get there. ;D
I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday. I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy.
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women.
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men.
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there. She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.
And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?
I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday. I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy.
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women.
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men.
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there. She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.
And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?
I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!
Ponder this more, keep talking with your therapist. You are strong in your opinions about many things, that does not mean they are necessarily bad or good opinions. She has noticed that strength of conviction or preference in regards to your thoughts about males.
You will figure this all out. Give it time. :)
Chrissy
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 09, 2019, 10:36:26 AM
Ponder this more, keep talking with your therapist. You are strong in your opinions about many things, that does not mean they are necessarily bad or good opinions. She has noticed that strength of conviction or preference in regards to your thoughts about males.
You will figure this all out. Give it time. :)
Chrissy
Yes, i all of a sudden have to open more windows and might be forced to change my thinking. I hate it, because feeling 100% lesbian was pretty safe and secure for me. I know how to deal with females, I have no idea how to handle guys! It scares me in a way!
I myself find it hard to say I was "Socialized" one way or another because at my earliest ages I felt wrong about the "Your a boy!" label and was desperate to fit in with the girls instead. So, being rejected by the girls, I didn't fit in anywhere. The bullying (and abuse) started REALLY early for me. So as I went through elementary school I did feel the beginnings of attraction to girls and never once contemplated attraction to a guy. But...
There was always something off with how I related to the girls. My primary attraction to them as I hit the nightmare that was puberty was NOT carnal. Thus, I would decide I liked someone and the approach I would take invariably landed me in the best friendships I ever had. This was a pattern repeated with every girl I ever liked.
Enter anger. Due to certain circumstances, I had periods where all prior memory of myself would get buried under a mountain of anger. It was easy as a sophomore in high-school then for the people I became associated with to see me as male because the only outward expression I had was defiance and anger. I for all intents and purposes presented as a criminal. Pretending to be one by actually being one (don't want to get into the things I've seen in my life right now /sigh). Girls in that circle took notice and pursued me. In that circumstance another pattern would emerge. They see a "Bad Boy" and take an interest. We start seeing each other. Weeks, maybe as much as months later, they start to see under the surface and break up with me because I'm too emotional; too sensitive; "Too much like a girl". I was actually told that several times!
That's how things were for four years of self destructive behaviors and attempts at ending it all doing the absolute stupidest things you can imagine. As well as at least four plans executed to the last step... Only to stop. I think deep down I knew I didn't do anything wrong. That period ended only when a close "Friend" was killed doing something as stupid as I had been doing and I broke.
So back to the subject... I had always ASSUMED that I didn't like guys. Not just in terms of attraction but period! They made my life a hell from my earliest memories. I never wanted to be around them, never wanted to be friends with them. I tolerated them only. I could NEVER connect to a guy, ever. Yeah, found out that was lie.
Among the memories I had buried over the years there were three guys who broke through by barriers. I had buried these "friendships" so deep I didn't even know they were there until everything came back to me last year. The first was a friend in the seventh grade. My first period of anger deletion. He was always quick tempered and defended his girlfriend against any slight. He had a strained relationship with his dad. His mom had died when he was three and his dad was disciplinarian to say the least. But he friended me because he knew I needed a friend. He was sweet. and really freaking hot. So... I remember very clearly how I felt about him back when we were hanging out. Never told him these feelings and I don't know if he noticed but I acted... Different. For all intents and purposes I acted like I had an unrequited crush on him... And never once a sexual thought. My feelings were too bent at that point. I was really jealous of his girlfriend. In my mind she wasn't pretty enough for him. I used to get mad when he would hang out with her and her best friend without me. Hundreds of other examples. From what I know now... He was my first crush.
The other two guys mentioned above were under different circumstances but the same thing. Too many clues ignored at the time. The third was the first person I ever truly loved. Actual true and impossible love. /sigh He saved my life. And I saved his. Different story for another time.
Thing is, after everything I had been through, I finally found a way out in my mind and went away to college to "run away". And run away I did. I buried everything all over again one final time (this time by actually "deleting" the memories not just covering them up) and spent an enormous amount of energy convincing myself I was a "Normal Guy". Found my wife. Started life. Twenty years later, I'm still upside down. Oddly it was the things that happened when I was alone during those twenty years which clued me in after I got my memory back. I never asked myself why, in my own "alone time" during that period I was always imagining myself as the female in the encounter... With men.
Now that everything is out in the open I can admit it. I'm still married and don't want to use the body I currently have for anything right now... But I am Bi/Pan. Never knew it till I was able to admit I was trans, but now I know that's what I am. It's what I always was, I think. There was just too much going on for me to be able to feel it. And I'm curious as heck (really really really curious actually. :-) but will never cheat (never have, never will). Oh well. Who knows what the future holds.
<3
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!
Justin Belieber is unavailable, sorry.
For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.
It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.
Quote from: ErinAscending on January 09, 2019, 11:29:29 AM
I myself find it hard to say I was "Socialized" one way or another because at my earliest ages I felt wrong about the "Your a boy!" label and was desperate to fit in with the girls instead. So, being rejected by the girls, I didn't fit in anywhere. The bullying (and abuse) started REALLY early for me. So as I went through elementary school I did feel the beginnings of attraction to girls and never once contemplated attraction to a guy. But...
There was always something off with how I related to the girls. My primary attraction to them as I hit the nightmare that was puberty was NOT carnal. Thus, I would decide I liked someone and the approach I would take invariably landed me in the best friendships I ever had. This was a pattern repeated with every girl I ever liked.
Enter anger. Due to certain circumstances, I had periods where all prior memory of myself would get buried under a mountain of anger. It was easy as a sophomore in high-school then for the people I became associated with to see me as male because the only outward expression I had was defiance and anger. I for all intents and purposes presented as a criminal. Pretending to be one by actually being one (don't want to get into the things I've seen in my life right now /sigh). Girls in that circle took notice and pursued me. In that circumstance another pattern would emerge. They see a "Bad Boy" and take an interest. We start seeing each other. Weeks, maybe as much as months later, they start to see under the surface and break up with me because I'm too emotional; too sensitive; "Too much like a girl". I was actually told that several times!
That's how things were for four years of self destructive behaviors and attempts at ending it all doing the absolute stupidest things you can imagine. As well as at least four plans executed to the last step... Only to stop. I think deep down I knew I didn't do anything wrong. That period ended only when a close "Friend" was killed doing something as stupid as I had been doing and I broke.
So back to the subject... I had always ASSUMED that I didn't like guys. Not just in terms of attraction but period! They made my life a hell from my earliest memories. I never wanted to be around them, never wanted to be friends with them. I tolerated them only. I could NEVER connect to a guy, ever. Yeah, found out that was lie.
Among the memories I had buried over the years there were three guys who broke through by barriers. I had buried these "friendships" so deep I didn't even know they were there until everything came back to me last year. The first was a friend in the seventh grade. My first period of anger deletion. He was always quick tempered and defended his girlfriend against any slight. He had a strained relationship with his dad. His mom had died when he was three and his dad was disciplinarian to say the least. But he friended me because he knew I needed a friend. He was sweet. and really freaking hot. So... I remember very clearly how I felt about him back when we were hanging out. Never told him these feelings and I don't know if he noticed but I acted... Different. For all intents and purposes I acted like I had an unrequited crush on him... And never once a sexual thought. My feelings were too bent at that point. I was really jealous of his girlfriend. In my mind she wasn't pretty enough for him. I used to get mad when he would hang out with her and her best friend without me. Hundreds of other examples. From what I know now... He was my first crush.
The other two guys mentioned above were under different circumstances but the same thing. Too many clues ignored at the time. The third was the first person I ever truly loved. Actual true and impossible love. /sigh He saved my life. And I saved his. Different story for another time.
Thing is, after everything I had been through, I finally found a way out in my mind and went away to college to "run away". And run away I did. I buried everything all over again one final time (this time by actually "deleting" the memories not just covering them up) and spent an enormous amount of energy convincing myself I was a "Normal Guy". Found my wife. Started life. Twenty years later, I'm still upside down. Oddly it was the things that happened when I was alone during those twenty years which clued me in after I got my memory back. I never asked myself why, in my own "alone time" during that period I was always imagining myself as the female in the encounter... With men.
Now that everything is out in the open I can admit it. I'm still married and don't want to use the body I currently have for anything right now... But I am Bi/Pan. Never knew it till I was able to admit I was trans, but now I know that's what I am. It's what I always was, I think. There was just too much going on for me to be able to feel it. And I'm curious as heck (really really really curious actually. :-) but will never cheat (never have, never will). Oh well. Who knows what the future holds.
<3
And all too familiar story. Many of us took membership into the He Man, Women Haters Club to drown out our misidentity sorrows.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.
It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.
I know exactly what you are saying. Always wanted to be sought. Which is why, I think, the only GFs I ever had were the ones who thought they were getting that "Bad Boy" thing people assumed I was. I never approached them. They approached me.
As to the difference. I have been guy watching since I figured all this out and find the same thing. I am attracted to both women and men... But from two completely different places in my heart. It's hard to explain. So I don't think I'll try. Maybe to my therapist.
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
I brought the question of my sexuality up with my psychologist yesterday. I told her that I feel i am 100% lesbian, and could not even imagine to be with a guy.
She asked what I dislike about guys, I said, almost everything, and that i still would feel any interaction with a guy as being a gay thing, what I dislike a lot (to say it bluntly, I don't like my A** being touched in any other way than than by TP My wife and I tried it, and we both disliked any aspect of it).
She wondered what if the guy has a very feminin appearance, and you can forget about his genitals, would you feel you might want to hug him, and probably even kiss him, and I said yes, I could imagine this, because it meets more my desire of being with women.
She asked more details and discussed situations, and than brought up her conclusion!
She feels that my dislike of male, specifically of male genitalia is actually a very strong version of my dysphoria projecting the dislike of my own genitalia onto that of all men.
She said she hardly has seen a genital dysphoria much heavier than mine, and here I thought I was OK with my bits down there. She is of the opinion that i need surgery as soon as possible to eliminate this really bad case of dysphoria.
And here I was stating all over this place that I am lesbian, and nothing but lesbian, while, in reality, i might be Bi?
I just need to find some girlish looking guys to check this out!
I'm so glad you added this to the discussion! You seem to describe me is so many ways, and your psychologist's insights really resonated with me. I'll be thinking about this for days :)
I consider myself a settled lesbian and can't imagine a male body next to mine. In fact, it repulses me. But if this is related to my own physical dysphoria, then I can understand how other dynamics are at play. In the past week I've started to see that I have the "wrong" genitals, which surprised me. I didn't plan to have bottom surgery but now I'm considering it. I do hope we can figure this out for ourselves and I suspect we will!
Amie June
Quote from: Amie June on January 09, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
I'm so glad you added this to the discussion! You seem to describe me is so many ways, and your psychologist's insights really resonated with me. I'll be thinking about this for days :)
I consider myself a settled lesbian and can't imagine a male body next to mine. In fact, it repulses me. But if this is related to my own physical dysphoria, then I can understand how other dynamics are at play. In the past week I've started to see that I have the "wrong" genitals, which surprised me. I didn't plan to have bottom surgery but now I'm considering it. I do hope we can figure this out for ourselves and I suspect we will!
Amie June
Yes, we could be emotional twins! For me, it almost causes a throw up effect, just thinking about of having to touch male genitalia. I still think that male genitalia is extremely ugly (but again, I still have my stuff around to feed those thoughts). I am absolutely confused about my feelings now, and I really don't want to let go of the feeling of me being lesbian, because I am very comfortable around women. I really don't know how to deal with men outside the buddy kind of system and padding each others shoulders!
Luckily, I don't know any men I would be attracted to, and I do not have to make a decission about this!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
I really don't know how to deal with men outside the buddy kind of system and padding each others shoulders!
Strange, all of my male buddies slapped each other on the buttocks! Than again, we were jocks, party animals, head bangers, punkers, and goat roapers. Even more strange, my pals in choir and drama never did that and 3 of them came out as gay. ???
Quote from: BritneyX on January 09, 2019, 05:59:50 PM
Strange, all of my male buddies slapped each other on the buttocks! Than again, we were jocks, party animals, head bangers, punkers, and goat roapers. Even more strange, my pals in choir and drama never did that and 3 of them came out as gay. ???
I either lived in a beautiful heterosexual oasis, or I was to naive to be able to identify gay people! I still have to knowingly meet a gay or lesbian person! I am simply not able to identify them, I don't know for what kinds of clues I would need to look!
And here I sit, hoping to find a lesbian partner!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 06:39:15 PM
I either lived in a beautiful heterosexual oasis, or I was to naive to be able to identify gay people! I still have to knowingly meet a gay or lesbian person! I am simply not able to identify them, I don't know for what kinds of clues I would need to look!
And here I sit, hoping to find a lesbian partner!
I have always had an industrial grade gaydar. I just used it as a fun game of observation, like how I could always tell the difference between a police car, fire truck, and ambulance. I held the awe of every kid on the block, which was just one kid. ;)
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
just thinking about of having to touch male genitalia. I still think that male genitalia is extremely hugely
Come on Linde, is this a Freudian slip or what?
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.
It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.
I have found attraction to men and women involve very different areas of the heart, or brain, or both. When I am attracted to a woman, I find myself desiring her, and being very much externally focused. When I have been attracted to men, I find myself very much desiring to be be desired -- somewhat internally focused, athough it is important what external person desires me. I think that speaks to pitcher vs catcher somewhat.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 09, 2019, 09:10:39 PM
Come on Linde, is this a Freudian slip or what?
No, stupid spell checker/autocorrect (who knows, it might have been done by a programmer who has an Oedipus Complex?)
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 09:24:36 PM
No, stupid spell checker/autocorrect (who knows, it might have been done by a programmer who has an Oedipus Complex?)
I have Faith that a good and joyful soul like you will find your soul mate. Till then, you are never lonely with your Family here.
Quote from: randim on January 09, 2019, 09:10:53 PM
I have found attraction to men and women involve very different areas of the heart, or brain, or both. When I am attracted to a woman, I find myself desiring her, and being very much externally focused. When I have been attracted to men, I find myself very much desiring to be be desired -- somewhat internally focused, athough it is important what external person desires me. I think that speaks to pitcher vs catcher somewhat.
Interesting, I think this also adds fuel to the bi vs. pan debate. Are they different words for the same thing? If I'm attracted to masculine men and feminine women does that preclude pan? Though to my knowledge I've never met a non-binary or agender person so I can't definitively say that I don't find them attractive, i just don't know.
And finally, I know this is shallow, but the bi flag is so much cooler than the pan flag.
Thank you for this thread and shared thoughts. I love all kinds of people and have always known myself to be open to the idea and reality of loving with someone I found attractive that wanted to be with me too. Gender is not an issue or barrier for me and I have found love in the arms of men and women. I used to say I was bisexual in orientation but since my transition realize that pansexual describes the broader range of people that includes we transgender people. Some of us transgender people might be non binary or in different stages of transition too and remain quite lovable. ;)
Diversity is beautiful. I have been here for years and watched as some folks evolved over time to accept aspects of themselves they previously denied. Some of us who simply could not and would not imagine anything but vanilla before the liberation of our transition can attest to significant changes in outlook and behavior. Once we free our minds from social strictures, cultural homophobia and the dominant themes of gender and hetero-patriarchy the world can show us the rainbow of delights and greater possibilities all of humanity has to offer. We are unlimited in our capacity for love, understanding and the ability to create meaningful connections.
Genital Dysphoria is real but our genitals don't really determine who we are, do they?
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 10:13:18 PM
Though to my knowledge I've never met a non-binary or agender person so I can't definitively say that I don't find them attractive, i just don't know.
Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Nice to meet you too. :)
Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Also nice to meet you . But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean! There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean! I really don't even know what I am. The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman. Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am! Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
Also nice to meet you . But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean! There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean! I really don't even know what I am. The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman. Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am! Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!
You are you and no one else. You are unique, as we all are, which makes us all not that very much different.
Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
Also nice to meet you . But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean! There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean! I really don't even know what I am. The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman. Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am! Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!
Linde you make a good point and I urge you to forget the labels of the day and focus more on how you feel. People are free to define themselves and new terms come and go. Transgender is a word coined in the 60s and some folks are demiboi or genderfluid or just grryls ;) Younger people seem very creative! This is a journey of self discovery and if people really want to know more about you, than a first glance tells, they might have to pull up a chair and chat a bit? You owe the world no explanations and I often stop people who ask what I am by asking; "why do you want to know? or what is your impression? or i'm a person with an interesting life or guess or all of the above!".
I sometimes think that i could be considered a deliberately self made intersex person. I have had an orchiectomy and my genitalia could be considered "ambiguous" while I live with estrogen based hormones and appear female and male in some respects. I hope and trust that reductionist idea is not offensive?
I love being queer and that is the simplest and most inclusive term I know of for my orientation and gender. Call it as you see and feel it girl!
Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 11:58:18 PM
I love being queer and that is the simplest and most inclusive term I know of for my orientation and gender. Call it as you see and feel it girl!
Even this queer term sounds negative o to me. When I was younger, queer was not a word what on wanted to be! One used to point with fingers at those queer people, and wanted to stay away from them as far as possible.
Now I hear young people like you, declaring with pride that they re queer, and I get cold shivers down my back. At the same time, I might be one of them modern queers, who knows, because I don't know what queer means today!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 10, 2019, 12:06:12 AM
Even this queer term sounds negative o to me. When I was younger, queer was not a word what on wanted to be! One used to point with fingers at those queer people, and wanted to stay away from them as far as possible.
Now I hear young people like you, declaring with pride that they re queer, and I get cold shivers down my back. At the same time, I might be one of them modern queers, who knows, because I don't know what queer means today!
I was posting my big, long, thought provoking, challenging thoughts on etymology word matter. OK, it was me that crashed the server with my mini exhortation. >:-) Oh well, I can't even remember half of what I said. I will say this. I am not given to the corruption or co-opting of words; for good or bad reasons. It only serves to create confusion and deter proper communication. It is also one of the big reasons why cis-Folks are having a hard time grasping and understanding who we are and what ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism is all about. The ones that try to be open are being made to feel as if they ignorant and incapable of coming to an understanding on their own. When I began to come to an understanding of myself as a Transgender, the flux of terminology was enough to make me feel so uncomfortable and inadequate, that I wanted to do an about face. I have read this same note of apprehension from a number of other MTF Trans Folks. By now, most everyone that has ever been on any sort of forum or social media has experienced being rotisserie à la newb. Thankfully, the Family here at Susan has been most open, considerate, kind, loving, caring and sharing.
So in the spirit of that endeavor, for me, the word queer will always mean
: differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal. The word gay will always mean
: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits, as well as, the name of my female Cousin. My personal preference would be that if people don't care for the scientifically established terminology or the understanding behind that terminology has evolved, that they would just create a new word or re-establish the Greek or Latin in the proper context towards the corrected/evolved understanding. Though I was trained by the Boy Scouts, IT, Navy to be by the book and verbatim with words and the terminology, just consider it my personal opinion. I will not be upset if others choose differently. I am usually sitting a table for one most of the time, anyway. :-\
I too had a nice long response that seems to have drifted off into the aether, oh well. I understand that reclaiming words can be a fraught concept. I also would feel like I don't have "the right" to try to reclaim transphobic terms since as far as I can tell I haven't been on the receiving end of any transphobic slurs. Homophobic slurs definitely, 5th through 9th grade I was called pretty much every homophobic slur under the sun.
That being said queer as a catch all term does seem like a useful term, since saying LGBT+ is a bit of a mouthful, and it helps to have a short catch-all.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 14, 2019, 07:40:29 PM
That being said queer as a catch all term does seem like a useful term, since saying LGBT+ is a bit of a mouthful, and it helps to have a short catch-all.
I will do a very unscientific survey and will ask my cis friends, what they think if the hear the word queer!
I hate that word. To me it's toxic.
I think it's generational. To those of us raised in the, I don't know, 50's, 60's, 70's, "queer" was a slur. Like you Moni, I have a hard time using it. But it's become common and I accept it...I just rarely say it.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 14, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
I hate that word. To me it's toxic.
I am glad that I am not alone with my understanding of it here!
As per the beginning of this entire thread, I was assigned male at birth. Growing up I got the message loud and clear that someone like me liking boys was bad and wrong, and only broken, bad people did that. As I've transitioned I've found that not only am I attracted to women as I always knew, I'm also attracted to guys. However, since I was raised with "Me liking boys = bad" I internalized this and it still affects my thinking. Now, this is not the only reason I am hesitant to start exploring this side of my sexuality. Fertility is something that does concern me, if I end up with a woman then we could have biological children (I preserved fertility before starting HRT) with a man this would be more difficult. Furthermore, at the risk of TMI the sorts of things I could do with the "equipment" I have right now aren't all that arousing to me. However, the internalized homophobia is something I want to get rid of because I don't like having the kinds of attitudes that hurt so many people rattling around in my brain.
I also have internalized transphobia, I constantly have to fight the idea that I'm some sort of burden, and that asking "normal" people to accept me is unreasonable. When I see visibly trans women I will get this weird fear that she'll "give the rest of us a bad name." Acting out these roles is very harmful for us, and I want to be sure I'm not reinforcing them.
I'm assuming that this is something that gets better with time, but if anyone has any techniques on fixing this let me know.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 14, 2019, 08:44:23 PM
As per the beginning of this entire thread, I was assigned male at birth. Growing up I got the message loud and clear that someone like me liking boys was bad and wrong, and only broken, bad people did that. As I've transitioned I've found that not only am I attracted to women as I always knew, I'm also attracted to guys. However, since I was raised with "Me liking boys = bad" I internalized this and it still affects my thinking. Now, this is not the only reason I am hesitant to start exploring this side of my sexuality. Fertility is something that does concern me, if I end up with a woman then we could have biological children (I preserved fertility before starting HRT) with a man this would be more difficult. Furthermore, at the risk of TMI the sorts of things I could do with the "equipment" I have right now aren't all that arousing to me. However, the internalized homophobia is something I want to get rid of because I don't like having the kinds of attitudes that hurt so many people rattling around in my brain.
I also have internalized transphobia, I constantly have to fight the idea that I'm some sort of burden, and that asking "normal" people to accept me is unreasonable. When I see visibly trans women I will get this weird fear that she'll "give the rest of us a bad name." Acting out these roles is very harmful for us, and I want to be sure I'm not reinforcing them.
I'm assuming that this is something that gets better with time, but if anyone has any techniques on fixing this let me know.
I did many things that would have earned me the ire and angst from my male peers and some Family. My Dad was not much of a Family man. He was not mean spirited, foul, ill-tempered or missing. He was just there. I was the youngest of his second set of children and he was nearly 20 years my Mom's senior. By the time that I rolled around, Family life began to become benign to him. My Mother always babied me. However, she was never slow to scold. She knew that I played with girls mostly and we played house, dolls, and the odd dress-up. However, at home, I was all "boy". When I was younger, I would pull one of her bras out of the dresser drawer and ask where was mine and why didn't I have one. She would always just blurt out an abrupt answer, never explaining. She did catch me literally coming out of the closet. My Dad had received a pair of "Manty Hose" from Spencer's Gifts as a gag present. In one of my many junkets of exploring thru my Mother's clothes, I came across it. At that time, I knew that panty hose was made for women. So I wanted to try them out. I was a literal kid, so I took "Manty Hose" as an actual clothing item for men. So when my Mother went to see what all the rustling around in her closet was, out I pop sporting me some rather fetching Manty Hose! She tried to hide her laughing while scolding me take them off. She had a hard time explaining what they were when I told her, "Momma, I like them. Why can't I wear them? They even have a place for my manhood to fit." I always called my penis my "manhood" till I hit puberty. Not sure if that means anything. She never spoke to me again about that. It left me more confused as she did not really scold me to have me feel that it was "inappropriate", nor did she give any inclination that it was OK. I was really beginning to understand what it was like to feel left blowing in the wind.
Note: I later learned that panty hose were not just for women, that men used them for various reasons. My Scout Master would wear them on long hikes to wick the sweat off the legs so that the cotton boot socks would not get soaked in the Summer heat. Some of the boys would go "Ooh, yuck, that's girl stuff!" I was like, "Neat, I did not know that."
As for your perception of inside homophobia, don't sweat it. You are you and have no reason to conform your life based on the perceptions of others. You can't please everybody. Trying to only serves to hurt yourself.
"To thine own self, be true."
From what I have learned in the past couple of years is that there is no cookie cutter Transgender out there. As we were talking on another thread, the medical community is on an ebb and flow with the terminology as they develop a broader understanding of Transsexualism. When you throw the list of further terms and beliefs from the Trans community and the greater LGB crowd, it can get confusing, a somewhat daunting task for us discovering ourselves and those transitioning. Just think how confusing it is to the lay person, who may or may not even know a Trans person. There is always that atypical person in any group, including Trans Folk. Yes they are presenting an erroneous view of us, but they don't represent anyone but themselves. Ask yourself this, "Who represents the typical American?" Answer: No one!
Just be yourself. Be true to yourself. Feel how you want on the inside. Let it reflect how you want on the outside. Life is too short to worry about putting on a show for others. If anyone has a problem with that, just move on. There are 6 billion more people in the world that you can choose to associate with. :) There is bias in every single group. It comes in all sorts of forms and fashion. It is called, human nature.