I applied today to join a group of trans women in a meetup in Seattle. I told them I choose my places to appear female in public as I live in the burbs and not on Capital Hill where it is easy to express oneself. I also explained that I love my wife of 35 years and that we need each other. I explained my long quest to identify myself beginning in the early eighties and the fact that back in the fifties when a child put forward they were not the sex they were assigned, Mothers did not run to the doctors to get the kids sex changed. I started telling my Mom at seven. She knew at sixteen my testicles had not dropped. I explained to the hostess that due to health problems brought about by DES poisoning and the connection to my being transgender. I love that I have revealed myself after all these years and I was looking forward to being able to socialize with some other trans ladies that were over forty. When I was eighteen I was more worried about going to war than anything else as I was told I was a boy. Although I did not fully feel like it. At twenty six I married a beautiful woman because I was told I was a man. After a couple years I could not handle it anymore. Sex was not satisfying me and I went back to my crossdressing. Imagine that sex with a nympho not satisfying. I can guarantee I have spent more days dressed as a woman than 80% of the people on this site. I just don't go outside. Fear sucks. I was all set to come out in 1984 but lack of gender therapists contributed to my silence as I wanted a sympathetic ear and there was not the resources that are available today. Even as I write today transwomen are considered jokes, oddities, objects of Satan. I swear I am a human being. Just as much as any pius person. I have a belief in God but my God believes in Love not hate. Whatever you do in your bedroom is your business, just as mine will remain private. It just boggles my mind that an oppressed minority chooses to make choices on who is oppressed enough to join their group. Oh well.
Oof, that sucks. Sadly, minority doesn't automatically mean nice, even to fellow people.
@DawnOday Those are the super Transistas, the self declared trans police. I ran across of a few of them on reditt. I was told that 1) I cannot be not intersex, because I would not have been able to get married, and 20 i can't be trans because i was married. That was it, no further comment, I was outside!
I had a similar experience with a local LGBTQI Meetup group that turned out to be homosexuals only, and they did not wanted to be interrupted by this out trans person, who insisted that she was a lesbian. After all, I was told, you were born with a penis, and this will never ever make you to be a lesbian, and that I am porbably only a horney guy who wants to see lesbians doing their thing and get high on this!
I think you find these super exclusive people in any place and at any level!
Dawn, you may have just dodged a bullet.
Would you want to be a member of a group that judged your behavior and actions, that could turn on you for the crime of being 'not trans enough' at any time. Would it feel like a safe social space for you, knowing that one slip could lead to rejection?
They sound fairly toxic to me. There are many meetups for us out there. Some are quite accepting and friendly.
Dawn next time I'm in Seattle we can socialize with each other. That may be in September and with all the gals considering joining in on the September West Coast Roadtrip (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,243912.0.html), it might be a party.
Hugs and smiles from a California girl
Quote from: Dietlind on February 10, 2019, 08:12:52 PM
I had a similar experience with a local LGBTQI Meetup group that turned out to be homosexuals only, and they did not wanted to be interrupted by this out trans person, who insisted that she was a lesbian. After all, I was told, you were born with a penis, and this will never ever make you to be a lesbian, and that I am porbably only a horney guy who wants to see lesbians doing their thing and get high on this!
I think you find these super exclusive people in any place and at any level!
Ugh, TERF lesbians. Definitely not worth anyone's time.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 10, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
Dawn, you may have just dodged a bullet.
Would you want to be a member of a group that judged your behavior and actions, that could turn on you for the crime of being 'not trans enough' at any time. Would it feel like a safe social space for you, knowing that one slip could lead to rejection?
They sound fairly toxic to me. There are many meetups for us out there. Some are quite accepting and friendly.
^^^^^^^ This.
Quote from: AoifeB on February 10, 2019, 08:35:01 PM
Ugh, TERF lesbians. Definitely not worth anyone's time.
You got it sister, the gas to drive there again is to valuable for me. The money would be better invested in a lollipop!
Quote from: DawnOday on February 10, 2019, 07:42:41 PM
I applied today to join a group of trans women in a meetup in Seattle. I told them I choose my places to appear female in public as I live in the burbs and not on Capital Hill where it is easy to express oneself. I also explained that I love my wife of 35 years and that we need each other. I explained my long quest to identify myself beginning in the early eighties and the fact that back in the fifties when a child put forward they were not the sex they were assigned, Mothers did not run to the doctors to get the kids sex changed. I started telling my Mom at seven. She knew at sixteen my testicles had not dropped. I explained to the hostess that due to health problems brought about by DES poisoning and the connection to my being transgender. I love that I have revealed myself after all these years and I was looking forward to being able to socialize with some other trans ladies that were over forty. When I was eighteen I was more worried about going to war than anything else as I was told I was a boy. Although I did not fully feel like it. At twenty six I married a beautiful woman because I was told I was a man. After a couple years I could not handle it anymore. Sex was not satisfying me and I went back to my crossdressing. Imagine that sex with a nympho not satisfying. I can guarantee I have spent more days dressed as a woman than 80% of the people on this site. I just don't go outside. Fear sucks. I was all set to come out in 1984 but lack of gender therapists contributed to my silence as I wanted a sympathetic ear and there was not the resources that are available today. Even as I write today transwomen are considered jokes, oddities, objects of Satan. I swear I am a human being. Just as much as any pius person. I have a belief in God but my God believes in Love not hate. Whatever you do in your bedroom is your business, just as mine will remain private. It just boggles my mind that an oppressed minority chooses to make choices on who is oppressed enough to join their group. Oh well.
I think you got lost in the emotions of your storytelling. What did they actually say when they rejected you? Was it the group as a whole or a sour gatekeeper of sorts? Perhaps you can appeal to others in the group?
Sorry Dawn. I'm assuming they did not accept you.
You are plenty trans enough! If I was in Seattle I'd go out and socialize with you! It's a shame that these woman are caught up in their own bullcrap. They missed out on making friends with a wonderful woman.
I will agree with the above stated bullet dodge.
Imagine yourself as a female version of Neo dodging bullets in the Matrix being directed by the Wachowski twins!
Lacy
Elle. It's a small group of about 25 so far. Mostly there are 4-5 show up. They are on their 6th meeting. The leader recommended I go to a therapist because I can't come to terms going full time. I am full time I just don't always display the garments that quash my dysphoria like bra and panties. Mostly I wear jeans and blouses when I go out. Maybe that's too dudiesh but it works for me. They all are from the Capital Hill area of Seattle where being yourself is pretty much accepted.
Lacy I appreciate that. I would love to hang out with you too. I am so backward, it is a challenge to catch up to 50 years of hiding my identity. But those were the rules. Some people got lucky and happened into information.
Jessica Woo hoo. I'd love that, truly. I feel I already know much about you and the girls. One thing I would love to do is go see Kendra in concert.
Michelle I thought about that. She was saying they are dealing with things that I have not dealt with because I don't dress full time. That is in deference to my wife of 35 years. I wear enough to keep my dysphoria at bay. I'm too old to live on my own, too poor thanks to the Bushman, to move out, and love my family more than anything in the world including myself. Thirty years ago it would have been much different. I was healthier, firmly middle class.Then came the Bushman and the end to my 401k.
Thank you all for letting me vent. I am so proud to be a member of this group. You do not know how much you all mean to me.
You don't need them. If they have no understanding of other people's challenges, you will do better without them.
Sometimes it takes time to find a good group of people. Have you thought of searching for support groups in the city? Might be a bit to travel but it could be worth the time.
I found a great group of people 40 km from home. I go through rush hour traffic to get there. Takes 1 - 1 1/2 hour to drive there. But it is worth every minute.
Tony
Dawn,
I am so very sorry this happened to you, for a group that is to be accepting they are pretty closed minded! I sent them a message a while ago and was rejected not for the reasons you were, but for being a bit right of center. I was told "Margaret, your reputation and attitude proceed you...." I responded to the "woman" in charge where do I mail my "trans card" back to. She did not respond. Have you tried the gender alliance meetings on Fridays and some Tuesdays in Tacoma at the Rainbow Center? I know Saturday morning T was great when Catharine was running it, now not so much, Susan and I went last week and it was a no show for leadership :( A few people showed up and we chatted. That might be an option for you to approach the Rainbow center about a group?
I am again so very sorry they treated you like that! I will say hi to all of them when they arrive in hell with me!
Take care,
Margaret
Dawn you absolutely don't need them.
I organised a TG support group in Adelaide, that is still going - Lizk goes to it I think. Our rule were simple. Turn up and join in. No one cared if you were done and dusted, just starting and bewildered, dressed like Jennifer Lopez at the Grammy's, or in the clothes you do the gardening in.
Support = support and there are no pre conditions needed for that.
Sadly there's a lot of it about. I'm not "real" as I worked as a bus driver, had girlfriends,I'm bi, wear jeans, don't do make up, listen to punk & metal, go to the punk rock festival every year ride a Harley & like muscle cars. I went to a good support group til it became over run with the "unless you're just like us you can't be a real TS" crowd.
Quote from: big kim on February 11, 2019, 02:33:41 AM
Sadly there's a lot of it about. I'm not "real" as I worked as a bus driver, had girlfriends,I'm bi, wear jeans, don't do make up, listen to punk & metal, go to the punk rock festival every year ride a Harley & like muscle cars. I went to a good support group til it became over run with the "unless you're just like us you can't be a real TS" crowd.
That mostly explains me. I'm not girly or dare I say 'flaming' enough to be trans in the local community. I think it is funny because they say that people do not accept them, but they can't even get along with themselves most of the time. It is sad because I get along with most people excluding many MtF people, which is why I found Susans in the first place.
I've been considered a straight acting gay guy for most of my life and it worked well. Although they are all wrong I am just a woman trapped in a man's body. So I guess that I am an outcast too.
I've been through rough days and know to look where I am accepted. Maybe I'll find some people that have had some of the life expiriences that i've had and we can relate on that level. I am sure that they are out there somewhere.
Wishing everyone luck.
Quote from: GingerVicki on February 11, 2019, 03:05:19 AM
I've been through rough days and know to look where I am accepted. Maybe I'll find some people that have had some of the life expiriences that i've had and we can relate on that level. I am sure that they are out there somewhere.
Wishing everyone luck.
I have found acceptance in places where it was least expected and rejection where I thought it would be. I get along with most of the world, I have friends that are to the Right of John Birch and almost as left as Uncle Joe Stalin. I kept a few friend when I could no longer play the role of Phil, I have had much better relations and acceptance being ME. Being a MAJOR Alpha Richard Cranium most of my life hiding and fearing someone would find out was rough. I hope you find your people Vicki, it's amazing when you even find one!
Take care
-Margaret
Let me play devils advocate here.
I do not necessarily agree with exclusion, but from one potential perspective, if you are not "full time" then how do you and they relate? Your experiences are completely different and you benefit from them, but hey do not benefit from you.
I have stopped going to a number of groups because I don't benefit from being there.
Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.
If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 05:40:15 AM
Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
One does not have to be female to have these things happen to them. I've presented androgynous most of my life.
Unfortunately, I have had my butt grabbed and even backed into a corner by men before. I do not like being treated like that by men because they are that much larger than me, but what can I do.
Mansplained and mechanic upsell are also included. I think that many men think that there is a height requirement before a man is a man. This is my personal experience. Other peoples may vary.
Cheers to invalidation.
Quote from: GingerVicki on February 11, 2019, 05:57:19 AM
One does not have to be female to have these things happen to them. I've presented androgynous most of my life.
Unfortunately, I have had my butt grabbed and even backed into a corner by men before. I do not like being treated like that by men because they are that much larger than me, but what can I do.
Mansplained and mechanic upsell are also included. I think that many men think that there is a height requirement before a man is a man. This is my personal experience. Other peoples may vary.
Cheers to invalidation.
I think you missed the point of my post.
Quote from: DawnOday on February 10, 2019, 09:51:13 PM
Elle. It's a small group of about 25 so far. Mostly there are 4-5 show up. They are on their 6th meeting. The leader recommended I go to a therapist because I can't come to terms going full time. I am full time I just don't always display the garments that quash my dysphoria like bra and panties. Mostly I wear jeans and blouses when I go out. Maybe that's too dudiesh but it works for me. They all are from the Capital Hill area of Seattle where being yourself is pretty much accepted.
That's ridiculous, grotesquely insensitive and completely out of touch with the LGBTQIA of today. What a stunning lack of empathy and inclusiveness. I agree with the others, you don't want to be around people like that.
Quote from: GingerVicki on February 11, 2019, 03:05:19 AM
I've been through rough days and know to look where I am accepted. Maybe I'll find some people that have had some of the life expiriences that i've had and we can relate on that level. I am sure that they are out there somewhere.
Wishing everyone luck.
Yes, here! because I like you! And my therapist is the facilitator of our very accepting trans group!
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 05:40:15 AM
Let me play devils advocate here.
I do not necessarily agree with exclusion, but from one potential perspective, if you are not "full time" then how do you and they relate? Your experiences are completely different and you benefit from them, but hey do not benefit from you.
I have stopped going to a number of groups because I don't benefit from being there.
Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.
If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 06:28:26 AM
I think you missed the point of my post.
I am not sure how I can miss the message of, "your not one of us."
I am not angry because of your post because you honestly do not know how I present myself. That is ok, but I do feel that you came to a conclusion without all of the facts and we all do sometimes. I am guilty of this myself.
Here is a bit about me. I live in a very hostile city and non-binary people have problems here. I've been openly confronted about being FtM. I was out with my ex-wife each time and she was accused of being MtF. I am accustomed to people hating me for what I am. I guess you could say that I was failing before I started.
I ask myself, how many people thought that my wife and I were a lesbian couple? Not that it matters, but still. Most of those people who judged me didn't even give me a chance. It is also the cause of the other discrimination I've faced. Some of which you listed above.
I fail to see how my MtF androgynous presentation, especially when people assume I am transgender to the point of open discrimination in public places, is any different than a non-passable trans female.
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 05:40:15 AM
Let me play devils advocate here.
Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.
I don't now where you live, but I always had several women living along side m. there was my sister, my wife, and her sisters.
Neither of them ever mentioned or complained that some person grabbed their rear end! And no mechanic upsold to the, because hey always had some male to help them. But the mechanic thing should not apply to trans women that much anyway, because most of them used to be guys, who not magically forgot to deal wit mechanics trying to upsell hem something. Upselling does no only take place to women, some men are succers for it, too! I have two male friends who are of that type.
I don't think one has a problem to relate because one is not a woman all the time. I ws (biologically) a woman most of my life, and functioned most of the time wit female emotions, but I represented as a man! Most of my friends were women, and I had no problem to relate to them or they to me. In fact, some of them liked it that I could act like a man, because I could help ot in not so female situations! I think it has more to do with wanting to be the exclusive club. i wonder if they would accepted me, who presents 99% of the time female, and have en a female for a longer time than most of them. But about 1% of my time I go as a male, because it is of advantage to me or my friends!
Quote
If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.
And that is the attitude I sense from this, the exclusive trans ladies coffee and tea club who you can only attend upon specific invitation!
Dawn, I think they were right to exclude you! You are way too awesome, caring. beautiful, and...did I mention awesome, for those fools! Smile on lady!
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 05:40:15 AM
Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.
Isn't' that the problem? The thread is titled "Not trans enough to join the clique."
Quote from: Dietlind on February 11, 2019, 07:27:29 AM
And that is the attitude I sense from this, the exclusive trans ladies coffee and tea club who you can only attend upon specific invitation!
Exactly the problem right.
Quote from: GingerVicki on February 11, 2019, 07:45:19 AM
Isn't' that the problem? The thread is titled "Not trans enough to join the clique."
Exactly the problem right.
I don't necessarily agree with the exclusion, but why is that a problem that causes them to get blasted on a forum like this?
If their goal is to support post transitioners, for example, who have very different issues and challenges than early transitioners or non, then why not?
I'm in a group for post divorce moms, it excludes men, non divorcees and those without kids. How is this different?
Point is, every group has a purpose. If it's purpose is more specific than a general "transgender support" group, then how is this a real issue.
It's not about being "trans enough", it's about "what value do you add and how do you support the mission of thus group". Two quite different things.
I hope it's not lost on this minority group that a contrary opinion got jumped on by a half dozen people.
I think it's rude to turn someone away based on assumptions. They should have presented details about what makes their group "specific"or "streamlined" and confirmed if you still would like to join... Knowing what you would be getting into at that point, it would be up to you to decide.
I speak from experience because as a "gay guy" I had many times I tried being more social and was rejected... One gay mens group I tried to join told me that I couldn't join because my photo has a cup of alcohol in it... Another time I can remember was in person when I approached a random group of guys and started talking to them. One of the people told me to go away, for no reason, and I did. Sometimes I wonder why that happened, but then again I can only assume and really the only thing I can think of is that person did me a favor.
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Jill, I see your point. I was mainly going on the fact that Dawn was hurt by the thought that her experience was not valuable enough for the group. I think that is a big mistake on their part. They have the right to set the parameters of the group, yeah, but it doesn't mean that it is wise and that there will not be hurt feelings as a result. I used the term fools for them because they are missing out on someone I hold in high regard. Maybe it was harsh, but I love my Dawn. As for you, you have a point and I appreciate you making it. I hope you don't feel jumped on by me at least. I hope this whole topic stays friendly and we avoid hurting each other talking about it.
One of first things therapist and pcp explained to me was never question am I trans enough. We each follow our own winding path. I've learned those that exclude or question your transness typically have other issues. They aren't doing the community any favors. If the group is focused on a specific area and you don't fit the criteria so be it. However if it's general support, and they're being cliquey. You're far better off.
There's enough gatekeeping from cis people, we don't need any of our own. Especially for people who didn't transition early, or bi/lesbian trans women, too many people hear "not really trans" for us to say it to each other.
It is one thing if a group has a specific charter that they put out and refer to in adding members. Many support groups sponsored by medical organizations do this, with support groups specific for MtF or FtM persons who are working through their transition, and different support groups for persons who have completed transition and any medical work that they had needed. Meetings of these two groups will be very different in tone and in issues discussed. it is easy to see which one should join from reading their charter.
On the other hand, a group that just puts it out there as a Trans group on Meetup or whatever with no details as to who should or shouldn't join, and then 'judges' applicants without regard to a detailed charter or published set of criteria is just engaging in a bit of snobbery, rather like old-fashioned college sororities or fraternities with 'pledges' and 'blackballing' votes.
My first group session was for transgender women and for those that identified as NB or gender fluid. At one point I felt as if there was conflict between each other because we all didn't think the same. I was given the suggestion by some that I needed to this or that, but I was new and did not fully grasp what I needed. The facilitator steered the conversation that did direct the group in a positive way, but it was clear how some felt.
I didn't return to that group, wasn't into trying to defend myself.
If I go to another group, it will be the one for transgender women who identify primarily as a woman.
Quote from: Jessica on February 11, 2019, 10:16:36 AM
My first group session was for transgender women and for those that identified as NB or gender fluid. At one point I felt as if there was conflict between each other because we all didn't think the same. I was given the suggestion by some that I needed to this or that, but I was new and did not fully grasp what I needed. The facilitator steered the conversation that did direct the group in a positive way, but it was clear how some felt.
I didn't return to that group, wasn't into trying to defend myself.
If I go to another group, it will be the one for transgender women who identify primarily as a woman.
The folks running or facilitating a group can have a tremendous impact on how helpful, or
harmful a group may be. Particularly for folks who are early in coming out or the transition process, there may be an innate fragility present that needs to be guarded. The support systems representatives, those who facilitate or moderate the discussions, need to be aware of this and take some care in their actions.
In Dawn's case, I think she's pretty darn strong and secure in her identity, but even there rejection by a new group really hurts. I am very wary about approaching new groups now, being upfront about my nature, and approach new meetups wearing full psychic armor, ready to walk out. It is unfortunate but necessary.
One meetup with a new lesbian group was fascinating. The group was meeting at a large club in off-hours on a Sunday afternoon. A 'greeter' at the door shuffled each entering person off to different tables. The folks at my table quickly realized we were all the bi, trans, and nonbinary folks in the room, with the rest of the room being the practically stereotypical Berkeley crowd. I didn't go back, and neither did a few others at that table that I have since seen elsewhere.
Being in what seems like a supportive group, and then having the folks running it seemingly arbitrarily decide to un-invite, or even worse in some ways, put someone at the 'special' table, can hurt. When it is done to someone who is already in a fragile state, dealing with a bout of depression or anxiety, or in the throes of coming out or starting transition, this can shatter a person, with a real risk of their falling into suicidal ideation. I have experienced this, and it can be deadly.
We need to take care about what form our support system takes, make sure we understand the risks posed by different groups, and provide ourselves with 'backup' of some form that we can go to when the unexpected happens and support is pulled out from under us.
@Michelle_P Quote from: Michelle_P on February 11, 2019, 11:27:24 AM
The folks running or facilitating a group can have a tremendous impact on how helpful, or harmful a group may be. Particularly for folks who are early in coming out or the transition process, there may be an innate fragility present that needs to be guarded. The support systems representatives, those who facilitate or moderate the discussions, need to be aware of this and take some care in their actions.
In Dawn's case, I think she's pretty darn strong and secure in her identity, but even there rejection by a new group really hurts. I am very wary about approaching new groups now, being upfront about my nature, and approach new meetups wearing full psychic armor, ready to walk out. It is unfortunate but necessary.
One meetup with a new lesbian group was fascinating. The group was meeting at a large club in off-hours on a Sunday afternoon. A 'greeter' at the door shuffled each entering person off to different tables. The folks at my table quickly realized we were all the bi, trans, and nonbinary folks in the room, with the rest of the room being the practically stereotypical Berkeley crowd. I didn't go back, and neither did a few others at that table that I have since seen elsewhere.
Being in what seems like a supportive group, and then having the folks running it seemingly arbitrarily decide to un-invite, or even worse in some ways, put someone at the 'special' table, can hurt. When it is done to someone who is already in a fragile state, dealing with a bout of depression or anxiety, or in the throes of coming out or starting transition, this can shatter a person, with a real risk of their falling into suicidal ideation. I have experienced this, and it can be deadly.
We need to take care about what form our support system takes, make sure we understand the risks posed by different groups, and provide ourselves with 'backup' of some form that we can go to when the unexpected happens and support is pulled out from under us.
Michelle, you of course know my history, you were there at my first group. You never gave unsupportive thoughts to the group and I appreciated that. A personal friend that you had there was a bit pushy in her thoughts that I should be doing more. She happened to be correct, but I had no basis to accept it yet.
Other support was gained from a close friend that eventually shut me out, which crushed me. I am still reeling from it.
I have found others (yourself and Laurie foremost) that I have gained tremendous support from. New acquaintances I have found have been very beneficial.
One old friend from high school (along with being the "best man" at her wedding) has been extremely accepting of my transition. I cherish her friendship. Just knowing that she accepts and is excited for me is one of my best support systems.
So individual support is very vital to me, and it doesn't have to be in a group, though it is nice to be surrounded by other "like thinkers".
Dawn,
You ARE better without them. Right and wrong can get muddled here but in the end it will usually lead to exclusion and that is not good for anyone. As awful as it may be it is probably better than getting inside and then being shut out. I have read of so many people that had not found acceptance into these groups, from every angle, I hate that it happens in this minority. I have been excluded from the other side. I never found a group until I had been on hormones for two years and full time for a year and a half. I have been to a few now and I always am on the outside. The first group I went to four or five times and then at pride they completely blew me off, like I did not exist at all. Well okay, don't go back but they kept sending emails to invite me so I went back finally and then the Keystone Conference they snubbed me again, they would not talk to me. We have had dinner together a few times, went to a drag event together and then they acted like I didn't exist at all. I can't tell you why, I don't understand at all. Guess what? They still send me emails to come to group. Don't think so. At the conference no one would talk to me though, talking about being shut out, hundreds of trans women and none talking to me. The only people I connected with the whole time was a 19 year old trans guy and his mom and a 21 year old trans girl and her mom. They were great though the age gap was so big, at least I got on with their moms well. Here I am at a trans conference and the closest connections I made were with cis women. Somehow that doesn't seem right. It was like I had a bubble around me, they would smile, they would look but I couldn't engage any of them in conversation no matter how hard I tried. It was completely demoralizing and I left before lunch on Saturday, I couldn't handle it anymore. I paid for the gala bought a dress and everything and didn't go. I showered every day so I don't think I smelled bad, I don't know what it was but I haven't gone to a trans gathering since. People are great at excluding other people, happens in school, happens at work, happens in families and it even happens in the trans community.
It hurts, I am sorry that you had to experience that, I really believe that it is better for you though. There have to be groups that will embrace you and offer support. Kind of like dating, stinks being rejected, stinks when we have to reject someone but when we find the one special one it makes the effort worth it.
Take care,
Michelle
Quote from: jill610 on February 11, 2019, 05:40:15 AM
Let me play devils advocate here.
I do not necessarily agree with exclusion, but from one potential perspective, if you are not "full time" then how do you and they relate? Your experiences are completely different and you benefit from them, but hey do not benefit from you.
I have stopped going to a number of groups because I don't benefit from being there.
Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.
If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.
It is always justifiable to play devil's advocate, as we need to consider opposing views, whether or not the DA (I always wondered what that stood for but now it makes sense - just kidding) personally supports those views. I disagree with some of your arguments, though.
If the group is to provide mutual support for trans people at a certain level of transition, the group should have made that clear when advertising themselves, whether on social media or elsewhere. If you have to apply before learning what the acceptance criteria are, it is a club, not a support group.
There is obviously a section of the trans population (even a few members of Susan's Place but I certainly don't include you, Jill) that regards itself as innately different even from the majority of expressedly trans people, especially those who have either not transitioned or transitioned later in life. In Susan's Place, they usually avoid violating the TOS by implying not exactly that they are more female or more trans but rather that there is something else that makes them somehow innately different. Everyone is different of course but I personally think that when, and how completely, trans people transition is determined more by environment than biology. Of course, I can't say for certain whether the founders of that Seattle "group" are part of the section that regard themselves as innately different but I suspect that the members they accept will tend to fall into that category. It is sad because they sometimes really do have much to contribute to the trans community in general.
Quote from: MaryT on February 11, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
It is always justifiable to play devil's advocate, as we need to consider opposing views, whether or not the DA (I always wondered what that stood for but now it makes sense - just kidding) personally supports those views. I disagree with some of your arguments, though.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 11, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
It is one thing if a group has a specific charter that they put out and refer to in adding members. Many support groups sponsored by medical organizations do this, with support groups specific for MtF or FtM persons who are working through their transition, and different support groups for persons who have completed transition and any medical work that they had needed. Meetings of these two groups will be very different in tone and in issues discussed. it is easy to see which one should join from reading their charter.
On the other hand, a group that just puts it out there as a Trans group on Meetup or whatever with no details as to who should or shouldn't join, and then 'judges' applicants without regard to a detailed charter or published set of criteria is just engaging in a bit of snobbery, rather like old-fashioned college sororities or fraternities with 'pledges' and 'blackballing' votes.
I agree. Understand Dawn, l get a lot of this exclusionary treatment too, soley because l do not fit the "approved" definition or description of trans, (which is fine with me.) I never have identified as trans. Nevertheless, despite all the lip service paid to "inclusiveness", it you don't meet the approved standard, squawk the party line, you will be treated as a pariah.
"I hope it's not lost on this minority group that a contrary opinion got jumped on by a half dozen people" ~Jill
Your own personal happiness is up to you. No one else. You cannot allow others to dictate to you the terms of your happiness.
Quote from: Complete on February 11, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
I agree. Understand Dawn, l get a lot of this exclusionary treatment too, soley because l do not fit the "approved" definition or description of trans, (which is fine with me.) I never have identified as trans.
What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal I think to put a progress maker on a continuous process, and declare the process as being real or not at this certain point, is absolutely wrong.
Am I trans? after all, I was kind of a female at birth, and most of my biology seems to be female, and now I am reverting back to he point at which I was at birth. Would that meet the trans measurement?
I consider myself to be a trans woman!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 11, 2019, 11:21:57 PM
What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal I think to put a progress maker on a continuous process, and declare the process as being real or not at this certain point, is absolutely wrong.
Am I trans? after all, I was kind of a female at birth, and most of my biology seems to be female, and now I am reverting back to he point at which I was at birth. Would that meet the trans measurement?
I consider myself to be a trans woman!
I thought that I knew what trans was. Now I question the definition that I learned. Are definitions fluid? I thought not but apparently, they change or my understanding changes.
I asked this question some time ago, "If a transwoman is postoperative and passes 100%, is she still trans or just a woman?" Some said that she was always trans and others said that at that point she is just female. I believe that only one person said that she started as a woman and ended as a woman.
There are so many ways to judge and label people so that they either fit into the box or not. People in my experience focus on how someone
does not fit in versus how they
do fit in.
There are a few local gay groups where I live. These are just examples that make sense to me. There is the bear group. I will not attend this because I am not a bear. There is also a leather group. I'm not really into the leather thing so I do not attend that one. As the old saying goes, "Birds of a feather flock together."
I will ask another question if anyone wants to answer it. "
If someone presents most of the time, but in some situations they do not, would not a group that presents all of the time be able to assist that other person with the next step? Where should the line be drawn?"
I hope that these people do not ask for help because they certainly do not give it. Maybe I am just too inclusive and nieve. Gee I hope not.
Quote from: MaryT on February 11, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
There is obviously a section of the trans population (even a few members of Susan's Place but I certainly don't include you, Jill) that regards itself as innately different even from the majority of expressedly trans people, especially those who have either not transitioned or transitioned later in life. In Susan's Place, they usually avoid violating the TOS by implying not exactly that they are more female or more trans but rather that there is something else that makes them somehow innately different.
I'm sure I fall into the category of those you were talking about as far as this community goes but when others see you as different because the trans aspects of your life including your attitudes, opinions and experiences
are different and not only from the majority but literally from everyone and this is nothing you can change or do anything about, believe me that not being enough whatever or too much of something else to be part of the clique works both ways.
This doesn't make me more anything or anything less than anyone else or special but we are all very much tribal creatures that seek commonality and community with those that are like us be that in realms of politics, attitudes, life experience, sexuality or shared interests etc. Wanting a place to fit in is pretty much basic human nature so if you don't fall within the accepted parameters or don't fit the criteria of a specialized social group, especially one where identity and experience are the common binding denominator, not finding that place when you are an outlier in some way isn't that hard to understand even though this realization might be difficult or painful.
Dawn, it's unfortunate the way you were treated but don't give up or lose hope. Although supposedly under a broad nebulous transgender umbrella, we simply are not some monolithic entity where everyone is the same regardless of what we've been lead to believe or how much we'd like that to be true but that doesn't mean there's not a niche somewhere for everyone. You will find your tribe and if not, start your own. Not to be discouraging or anything but I've never found a place among trans people and I've come to accept that I'll always be an outsider in that sphere. Consider also that some of us are from a time before groups, any sort of community, organizations or even a way to meet other trans people and in my case, I was just a kid and none of these resources were even available so at least these opportunities exist in today's world even if it takes a few tries to find the ones that work for you.
QuoteEveryone is different of course but I personally think that when, and how completely, trans people transition is determined more by environment than biology.
Personally, I think differently but that's not important.
Quote from: Lisa_K on February 12, 2019, 08:09:44 AM
I we all are the same because we make choices to the best of our abilities and the hand we're dealt. A lot of people argue from what I've read about the label "transgender" of "transexual". I don't think as a community we really understand the experience ourselves... We just know gender dysphoria and the things we (kinda) can do about it. To me that's not really enough right now because I still want the bigger meaning. I laugh about gender yet here I am conflicted and sexually very repressed.
You have to realize that you speak from a privileged life and what we as a community should strive for every transgender person. And yes, I know you had your struggles and they're very real. I think we just need to understand that bottom line, being transgender is a major commonality we all share. This group was wrong for turning away Dawn.
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I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.
Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.
Again, l have to agree. Personally, l have no the friends who happen to be, or identify as trans. In fact, l have actually met very few. Occasionally l
might see someone in an obvious stage of transition, but to be perfectly honest l only know
of two or three people who have actually managed to cross seamlessly into what you all call "cis" society. I realize of course, that this is a reflection of the the time and conditions during which l was forced to take those steps which made it possible for me to survive.
[What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal?
This is the question, isn't I?
Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.
You don't, not really. I have two very close trans friends that I met here long ago. We are nothing alike in most ways but we get along very well and I don't want to give them up. I have another friend that I met more recently that is closer to where I live and we may end up as close. The fact that they are trans has nothing to do with our continuing friendship though the commonality may have been the thing got us together in the first place. I have a few very close cis girlfriends and my best friend for the majority my life is a cis woman. It seems normal to seek out those that are like us as friends.
I don't think that it is necessary to have trans friends, here we are though. I don't think it is possible for cis gender people to understand some of we have gone through and think it is a good thing to have that connection in some way. It is not necessary, I have good cis girlfriends and my boyfriend, I am glad that I have my trans friends though.
Hi, you are better off not being in a group that does not want you there.
There were two groups I use to go to and everyone was welcome. I stopped going because I have outgrown the groups. I needed those two groups at one time and I found friendship and acceptance there.
I hope you are not discouraged and keep looking to find accepting groups that provide friendship.
Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.
Dawn didn't mention that she applied because she was specifically looking for trans friends (although she obviously has them on Susan's Place). She thought that she was applying to join a group, which usually implies people meeting to give each other support and/or advice.
I wrote this more than a day ago and wasn't going to post it but I've been motivated.
Quote from: Allison S on February 12, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
I we all are the same because we make choices to the best of our abilities and the hand we're dealt. A lot of people argue from what I've read about the label "transgender" of "transexual". I don't think as a community we really understand the experience ourselves... We just know gender dysphoria and the things we (kinda) can do about it. To me that's not really enough right now because I still want the bigger meaning. I laugh about gender yet here I am conflicted and sexually very repressed.
I have a bad habit of going off topic so I will not elaborate because when I do share more of my opinion about this it mistakenly gets perceived as divisive and that I'm suggesting there is some sort of hierarchy when that is not the case at all and it makes people get defensive about it so I'll simply say I honestly don't believe that we are all the same and leave it at that. Besides, I wouldn't want to be accused of skirting the TOS. [/s]
QuoteYou have to realize that you speak from a privileged life...
I do get that when I concede that being a trans child was some sort of privilege. I understand what you're saying though, I'm not a complete jerk but you all don't seem to understand how my perceptions and opinions have been shaped by this or why they might not align with the approved current transgender dogma that didn't even exist when I went through my "privileged" years. I find not even talking about this to be intellectually repressive and stifling but realize these are the limitations of my membership here.
QuoteThis group was wrong for turning away Dawn.
It was certainly rude and unnecessarily hurt her feelings. In that we agree.
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I have written responses to other posters but will consider adding them at another time.
Dawn,
I agree with the person who commented that you may have just dodged a bullet.
It's hard to be rejected, and it's terrible that you felt the need to spill your life history to strangers in order to try to get them to accept you. But the fact that you were treated as you were is some indication that the group is more of a clique and that you're better off without them.
I am reminded of the stereotypical cliques of high school girls, and, later, women, who judge others on the basis of looks, income, husbands, etc., to decide who they will deign to treat as equals and include in their society. We all dodged that bullet; and I think we may well be better off for it.
Like you, I'm pretty isolated; I never see another trans woman. I'd like to, very much; but not at the cost they demanded you pay, or any like it.
Quote from: Lisa_K on February 14, 2019, 01:06:37 AM
I wrote this more than a day ago and wasn't going to post it but I've been motivated.
I have a bad habit of going off topic so I will not elaborate because when I do share more of my opinion about this it mistakenly gets perceived as divisive and that I'm suggesting there is some sort of hierarchy when that is not the case at all and it makes people get defensive about it so I'll simply say I honestly don't believe that we are all the same and leave it at that. Besides, I wouldn't want to be accused of skirting the TOS. [/s]
I do get that when I concede that being a trans child was some sort of privilege. I understand what you're saying though, I'm not a complete jerk but you all don't seem to understand how my perceptions and opinions have been shaped by this or why they might not align with the approved current transgender dogma that didn't even exist when I went through my "privileged" years. I find not even talking about this to be intellectually repressive and stifling but realize these are the limitations of my membership here.
It was certainly rude and unnecessarily hurt her feelings. In that we agree.
____________________________________________________
<Removed by moderator>
I have written responses to other posters but will consider adding them at another time.
I find it very sad and discouraging, (not for me, or those like me who have for all practical purposes, "lived or realized our dreams of becoming whole)...but for those who are still striving and struggling to attain that level of "privilege", which allows us to live rather normal, everyday lives by everyday standards - that those of us who
have made it, who have no need for "support" or "community" or meeting "standards" are not able to openly offer our experiences and what we have learned on
our path, without fear of sanction.
I just wish I could share just a tiny bit of what l have learned.
Quote from: Complete on February 14, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
I said the word "privelege" and maybe you misunderstood. We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying and I'll take what you wrote as you meaning well..
I know I'm priveleged myself and at the same time I can say that doesn't really help any other trans person but myself... Let's not delude ourselves, unless we're putting in time, energy and resources, all we're doing is spouting out words and arguments... I'm sure your transition stories, photos and opinions do help people, but we clearly are talking about different kinds of "help" for the community.
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QuoteHave you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?
I've had all those things done to me while presenting male... except replace 'dumb broad' with 'dumb northerner' and replace 'wearing a skirt' with 'wearing shorts'
But back to the O.P. Are the whole group of that mind or just a few? I love the group that I attend, one of the best things I've done... but there are times when someone can be a bit off with me. I let it go because most of the group are great. They know that I suffer from dysphoria and they know my intentions to transition but they never judge me for still presenting reasonably male. They're perhaps encouraging me at the moment to start expressing my feminine side but not pushing me or telling me that I have to do so.
I feel very sad that you are being excluded like this. I don't know where I would be if it wasn't for the support I get from my local group. In fact, it is one of the reasons why I am not on here as often as I was before.
Perhaps talk to someone else in the group about it and see if it is everyone's reaction. I am married, the group leader used to be married, and other members are married too or dating cis women. It seems a petty thing to be judging someone by. I wish you could've been in the UK and experienced my group... you would've been made more than welcome.
Or how about you start a group of your own? It is going to bother me that you are missing out like that.
love
Alice
Quote from: Allison S on February 15, 2019, 06:58:33 AM
I said the word "privelege" and maybe you misunderstood. We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying and I'll take what you wrote as you meaning well..
I know I'm priveleged myself and at the same time I can say that doesn't really help any other trans person but myself... Let's not delude ourselves, unless we're putting in time, energy and resources, all we're doing is spouting out words and arguments... I'm sure your transition stories, photos and opinions do help people, but we clearly are talking about different kinds of "help" for the community.
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I understand the term privilege to refer to something earned or awarded based on merit.
I do not agree that we are "the same just at different points in our lives and transition".
I do not see myself as sharing in some purported "commonality" based on something you see as or call, "the transgender experience".
I am not trying to be rude, but honestly, what many of you here talk about or describe in your daily lives, is just something that is totally foreign to me.
You are correct in assuming that l mean well. I have been reading abot and attempting to comment constructively about your experience for about ten years now, and frankly, l have received mixed reviews which l understand because, afterall, l really am not one of you, so l can certainly understand those feelings of rejection described by DawnODay.
Quote from: GingerVicki on February 12, 2019, 12:37:29 AM
I thought that I knew what trans was. Now I question the definition that I learned. Are definitions fluid? I thought not but apparently, they change or my understanding changes.
Labels are descriptive, not prescriptive; and they have their limits of usefulness.
I am female. Beyond that, labels may or may not apply. My therapist asked me recently if I were proud of being transgender; I told her, No, I'm not, I'm proud of being a woman. A woman is who I am; transgender is just where I'm from.
To tell you the truth, I'm trying to put the whole subject of being transgender behind me, as much as I can, and get on with the business of just living.
I can certainly relate to that statement by @Ann W
When I have to identify, I state that I am a woman. If there is a need for more intimate details, I am lesbian, and demisexual. I reached this point in my life by a more complex path than most, as a transgender person.
This is simply my identity, nobody elese's. I do me.
You do you.
Quote from: Margarine on February 10, 2019, 11:25:52 PM
Dawn,
I am so very sorry this happened to you, for a group that is to be accepting they are pretty closed minded! I sent them a message a while ago and was rejected not for the reasons you were, but for being a bit right of center. I was told "Margaret, your reputation and attitude proceed you...." I responded to the "woman" in charge where do I mail my "trans card" back to. She did not respond. Have you tried the gender alliance meetings on Fridays and some Tuesdays in Tacoma at the Rainbow Center? I know Saturday morning T was great when Catharine was running it, now not so much, Susan and I went last week and it was a no show for leadership :( A few people showed up and we chatted. That might be an option for you to approach the Rainbow center about a group?
I am again so very sorry they treated you like that! I will say hi to all of them when they arrive in hell with me!
Take care,
Margaret
Margaret... Moby does a pretty good job. I've missed quite a few meetings lately because I was having problems with my health. I have learned so much these last few years and the whole puzzle is starting to fit together. I wish there were as much to do as in Seattle. I'm tired of going to the Harmon and the Mix is hit or miss as there has been some adverse reactions to our presence. I would love to be able to pull everyone together and create a real support group. Nanci has been discussing some people she knows.
Thanks for all your supportive comments. I've spent my whole life on the fringe. Not fitting in with the dudes let alone the jocks. I had very severe acne and no Proactive. Not until I started shaving in earnest at about 26 did it start to go away. I didn't know how to handle friendships, romances, simple conversations, small talk. It's been a struggle but I am finally beginning to see the light. I'm not so much upset as i am confused.
Quote from: Complete on February 14, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
I just wish I could share just a tiny bit of what l have learned.
As the topic of this thread is cliques and as I mentioned earlier, tribalism, it's kind of ironic that those who decry such things are equally guilty of practicing them and don't even realize they're doing it too. You have to consider that we are archaic dinosaurs and much like the stereotypical teenager that is certain they know more and are smarter and wiser than their stupid parents, us old farts are just thought to be clueless and out of it and couldn't possibly have anything insightful to offer. It's kind of funny if not ironic that most of those teenagers grow up and realize their elders weren't quite so dumb after all but usually not until they have their own kids that think they are the idiots. You cannot give what is unasked for
Many if not most here will never have a life like yours or mine so we are the ones that are the outsiders with unwelcome ideas and thoughts that fall outside of the approved transgender narrative because they disrupt the sweet flow of confirmation bias. Complete, it makes me sad too. I am to the point of crawling back into the hole from whence I came because I really don't belong here as I'm just not trans enough to be a helpful member of the clique.
Quote from: Allison S on February 15, 2019, 06:58:33 AM
We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying...
This does need saying and I'll say it again because I do not believe it is accurate to say we're all the same but just at different points in our lives and transitions. Every researcher from Hirschfeld to Benjamin and then some have observed these facts with those failing to acknowledge them simply in denial, uninformed or victims of coercion by the great transgender machine that promotes such dogma as gospel. There is absolutely nothing wrong about not being all the same. Granted, our disparate trajectories may temporarily intersect at some point and certainly in the name of political expediency we should stand in solidarity with one another to some degree because as a whole we do have common enemies but by no measure does that mean we are all the same "type" regardless of how heretical that may be to some.
There is utterly no reason these differences should be a problem except some have decided to assign a hierarchy to them out of ignorance, their own insecurities, lack of self understanding, to make themselves look better or because the happy rainbow coalition says they don't exist. Maybe only those that defined their own paradigms from a time before there was any trans community or movement can see or understand this or even want to?
I generally do not even attempt to offer advice or counsel because it's irrelevant to what people here are going through but I have shared opinions and stories of my past to give others a point of reference which I realize now is not only unhelpful but antagonistic.
Dawn (and Complete), I too empathize with your feelings of not belonging but as someone said earlier in this thread if being trans is the only thing you have in common with others, it's not very much to base a friendship on. When it's become something nearly fifty years removed from your life, that's even more true as evidenced by my lack of making much of any sort of connection here.
I think I just need to go on hiatus and keep quiet from now on and take up a new hobby or something? I have enough issues without trans drama being one of them so go I back into the privileged woodwork in 3-2-1 poof! My best to everyone with everything.
I think this topic went way off the rail here... I think it was petty that Dawn wasn't invited into the group. And I also liked Jill610's playing "devil's advocate" because those are valid arguments.
I take back (lol that I have to do this) that anyone is "privileged" being trans in anyway. My meaning in that was lost since it seems to have provoked people's emotions over decades of their lives...
I think it's silly to have in fighting between us... I'm glad the newer transgender community seems to be more united, and honestly less catty.
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First, I'm sorry you were rejected by this group, Dawn. If it was advertised as being a general transgender support group, they ought to think about rebranding themselves.
Having said that, it is worth noting that we have Member groups here on Susan's, you can join them pending approval by Staff. They are peer support areas intended for people to interact with other members in the same situation. There are groups for Crossdressers, MTF transsexuals, FTM transsexuals, Non-binaries, Post-ops, etc. You have to provide a reason for wishing to join the group, and sometimes people are rejected. For example, stating "I'm not post-op, but I want to see what they're talking about in the post-op peer support area" would probably earn a rejection.
Quote from: Ann W on February 16, 2019, 12:46:09 AM
My therapist asked me recently if I were proud of being transgender; I told her, No, I'm not, I'm proud of being a woman. A woman is who I am; transgender is just where I'm from.
What an unusual question!
Why would anybody be proud to be something that hurts so much? We just have to look through this form and can see how many tears and pain it causes to be transgender (it did destroy my marriage). I am proud to be transgender and
still be alive, and that I have the real chance to leave the transgender thing behind as a faint memory, once I am done with it an am a woman!
Quote from: Lisa_K on February 16, 2019, 05:29:46 AM
I think I just need to go on hiatus and keep quiet from now on and take up a new hobby or something? I have enough issues without trans drama being one of them so go I back into the privileged woodwork in 3-2-1 poof! My best to everyone with everything.
I would not like this very much Lisa, because when I read your contributions an reports, it always let's me know how my life could have been, if I would have been born 5 or 20 years later.
I know that I was medically altered as a baby, I don't know why, I just can guess. I know that my parents did not emphasize any gender roll with me, but that changed when I entered society through school. I had to be a guy, and alter a man. I tried very hard to fit that roll and eventually failed to do so. Now, because society allows it for me, I am in full steam to be a woman!
I don't really know if I qualify as being transgender enough, or the right version and color of transgender, because in my mind I am just reclaiming the gender and body that was stolen from me a long time ago.
I am not able to give a lot of advise for a lot of people here, because I never had real dysphoria (and still don't have any), I have a deep rooted dislike for the bodily features that were forced onto me, but similar surgical procedures can correct that, as it could give me them when I was a baby.
However, I still feel that I belong to this transgender family, because many aspects of my life are the same as they are for other transgender women. It might not be identical in all aspects, but very often it is close enough to help me to understand what is going on with me. I am as confused about what is going on with me, as it is for any transgender person here, because I was also forced to live with the wrong gender identity!
Again Lisa, I hope you stay involved here, because I, too, (even as old as I am) like to dream once in a while how my life could have been, nd for this dreaming I use your life and our empathy as an example!
Lots of hugs
Linde
Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 08:44:09 AM
Having said that, it is worth noting that we have Member groups here on Susan's, you can join them pending approval by Staff. They are peer support areas intended for people to interact with other members in the same situation. There are groups for Crossdressers, MTF transsexuals, FTM transsexuals, Non-binaries, Post-ops, etc. You have to provide a reason for wishing to join the group, and sometimes people are rejected. For example, stating "I'm not post-op, but I want to see what they're talking about in the post-op peer support area" would probably earn a rejection.
I wish there would be something for intesex persons. Because people like I have partially way different problems than many others on these pages.
I'm sorry you had to experience this Dawn. It's truly unfortunate.
Also, my personal opinion is that transgenders need to find community with each other. It's just common sense. Birds of a feather flock together. Kind of the reason people are even on this website in the first place. Duh.
Or to put it more lyrically:
"My back to the wall
A victim of laughing chance
This is for me
The essence of true romance
Sharing the things we know and love
With those of my kind
Libations
Sensations
That stagger the mind"
-Steely Dan
Lisa I think I can understand where you're coming from. It can be hard for me to relate to someone that isn't going full time or lives in a closet because I don't have to hide or worry about it. There can be an element here that gets down right militant which rubs me the wrong way but different opinions from different viewpoints keeps our group from becoming a echo chamber.
As long as we all respect each other and don't fight I think these kind of conversations are fine, as it helps us explore ourselves and what it means to be us. No one person is the same so why would our experiences or view points be the same?
Quote from: NatalieRene on February 16, 2019, 12:38:47 PM
Lisa I think I can understand where you're coming from. It can be hard for me to relate to someone that isn't going full time or lives in a closet because I don't have to hide or worry about it. T
It is difficult to relate to some of the problems of closeted people, when one is out, and has no problems with society knowing one as female.,
But on the other hand, we all have been closeted at some time of our lives, and we all found ways and means to get out of hiding. And we probably can provide the experience we gained from this coming out, to help other people who are still in the closet and ar scared to come out?
Yes, each of our paths was different, but if we can only help one person to come out of the closet, or find a shoulder to lean on, we probably did do a great job!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 16, 2019, 01:12:25 PM
It is difficult to relate to some of the problems of closeted people, when one is out, and has no problems with society knowing one as female.,
But on the other hand, we all have been closeted at some time of our lives, and we all found ways and means to get out of hiding. And we probably can provide the experience we gained from this coming out, to help other people who are still in the closet and ar scared to come out?
Yes, each of our paths was different, but if we can only help one person to come out of the closet, or find a shoulder to lean on, we probably did do a great job!
My having difficulty in relating doesn't invalidate those problems. I can vaguely remember my fear of going to the rest room the first time and the fear of coming out at work. Looking back I know that the fear is very real but at this point it's nonexistent.
I don't think what happened to Dawn was right unless it was a group that focuses on a certain aspect and she isn't at that point yet. But if it is a general trans group it shouldn't have been an issue. Regardless it could have been handled better by having knowledge of other groups that would be able to help Dawn and not just telling her no.
I'm here to try and help. :D
Quote from: Dietlind on February 16, 2019, 10:44:00 AM
What an unusual question!
Why would anybody be proud to be something that hurts so much? We just have to look through this form and can see how many tears and pain it causes to be transgender (it did destroy my marriage). I am proud to be transgender and still be alive, and that I have the real chance to leave the transgender thing behind as a faint memory, once I am done with it an am a woman!
Important that we only speak for ourselves. Being transgender has been nothing but a learning experience for me, there hasn't been any pain or suffering.
Quote from: Dietlind on February 16, 2019, 11:29:15 AM
I wish there would be something for intesex persons. Because people like I have partially way different problems than many others on these pages.
There is, go to Profile/Modify profile/Group Membership and choose Intersexual. :)
Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 02:54:27 PM
Important that we only speak for ourselves. Being transgender has been nothing but a learning experience for me, there hasn't been any pain or suffering.
There is, go to Profile/Modify profile/Group Membership and choose Intersexual. :)
Thank you Devlyn, I will take a look at it! I am in the intersex group of the discord server, but there's an entire group of 4 of us only!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 16, 2019, 03:30:26 PM
Thank you Devlyn, I will take a look at it! I am in the intersex group of the discord server, but there's an entire group of 4 of us only!
Like l said previously : the rarest of the rare.
Quote from: Complete on February 16, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
Like l said previously : the rarest of the rare.
Yes, one feels kind of lonely and forgotten!
Topic Locked after TOS-2 argument
Cindy