It seems to me the trans people offer an opportunaty to determine which of the thought processes and inclinations of each gender are in herent and which the result of training and indoctrination.Since trans people are brought up to function as the opposite of their true gender ant thought processes characterist of their TRUE gender MUST be inherent since all of their training and indoctrination was aimed at making them function as the opposite gender.! at leasr this seems logical to me.
Interesting topic!
I personally have experienced this realization only recently, when I noticed that when I needed to present male, it was an act. I had been acting as a male to adopt the standards of society, and suppressing the woman within.
I though had worked much of my inherent feminine ways into an acceptable male persona and didn't suffer as badly as I could have. Throughout the years Jessica wanted to come out, but the act locked her away until the key that fit the lock was found.
Society in general is more accepting and my HMO covers it now.
Quote from: CindyLouCovington on February 10, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
It seems to me the trans people offer an opportunaty to determine which of the thought processes and inclinations of each gender are in herent and which the result of training and indoctrination.Since trans people are brought up to function as the opposite of their true gender ant thought processes characterist of their TRUE gender MUST be inherent since all of their training and indoctrination was aimed at making them function as the opposite gender.! at leasr this seems logical to me.
That's a pretty binary view of things, some (a lot) of us identify with both ends of the spectrum, or neither, or fluctuate between genders. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: CindyLouCovington on February 10, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
It seems to me the trans people offer an opportunaty to determine which of the thought processes and inclinations of each gender are in herent and which the result of training and indoctrination.Since trans people are brought up to function as the opposite of their true gender ant thought processes characterist of their TRUE gender MUST be inherent since all of their training and indoctrination was aimed at making them function as the opposite gender.! at leasr this seems logical to me.
And we often become handicapped by operating as half a person. Some of us excel but I've always felt half handicapped half undercover/fake in a way. Inauthenticity has a cost.
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Quote from: Devlyn on February 10, 2019, 09:46:57 PM
That's a pretty binary view of things, some (a lot) of us identify with both ends of the spectrum, or neither, or fluctuate between genders. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
This is so very correct and my true gender is based along that line between the binary poles. That is also why I could balance between the two. This is one of the thoughts that kept me comfortable with my transition, knowing that I was a mix of both, but predominantly feminine.
Quote from: Devlyn on February 10, 2019, 09:46:57 PM
That's a pretty binary view of things, some (a lot) of us identify with both ends of the spectrum, or neither, or fluctuate between genders. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Maybe maybe not. Maybe True gender would be better to described as something akin to the id, ego, and super-ego in psychology [true identity]? Possibly it might explain the non binary if scientists could figure out how the thought process works between genders. Maybe it would show a non binary is sort of a hybrid of the two designs. If you think about it humans are analog not digital. So there is no binary. There are dominant traits in two camps and then all sorts of combinations in the middle to varying amounts.
This could be an interesting subject to explore.
Quote from: NatalieRene on February 10, 2019, 11:07:04 PM
Maybe maybe not. Maybe True gender would be better to described as something akin to the id, ego, and super-ego in psychology [true identity]? Possibly it might explain the non binary if scientists could figure out how the thought process works between genders. Maybe it would show a non binary is sort of a hybrid of the two designs. If you think about it humans are analog not digital. So there is no binary. There are dominant traits in two camps and then all sorts of combinations in the middle to varying amounts.
This could be an interesting subject to explore.
Your response is very insightful. "Analog not digital" so very true.
Quote from: Gertrude on February 10, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
And we often become handicapped by operating as half a person. Some of us excel but I've always felt half handicapped half undercover/fake in a way. Inauthenticity has a cost.
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So well put! This is just how I feel. I believe this is why I've had such a hard time making a relationship last. I'm beyond eager to see how things have changed now that I'm being true to myself.
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And I wonder how much resistance we're going to find in certain circles when we acknowledge that gender/sex identity is innate and not a social construct.
Quote from: CindyLouCovington on February 10, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
It seems to me the trans people offer an opportunaty to determine which of the thought processes and inclinations of each gender are in herent and which the result of training and indoctrination.Since trans people are brought up to function as the opposite of their true gender ant thought processes characterist of their TRUE gender MUST be inherent since all of their training and indoctrination was aimed at making them function as the opposite gender.! at leasr this seems logical to me.
Hello CindyLou
Precisely. The brain is superior to the genitalia and controls all the bodily functions.
Inherent and as I prefer, innate.
Training and indoctrination to force brain to align with body is counterproductive; quite rightly we desire the body to align with the brain.
Hugs
Pamela
Quote from: CindyLouCovington on February 10, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
It seems to me the trans people offer an opportunaty to determine which of the thought processes and inclinations of each gender are in herent and which the result of training and indoctrination.Since trans people are brought up to function as the opposite of their true gender ant thought processes characterist of their TRUE gender MUST be inherent since all of their training and indoctrination was aimed at making them function as the opposite gender.! at leasr this seems logical to me.
Hi CindyLu,
You bring up an interesting concept that my poor mind finds difficulty grasping or encompassing. I fully agree with the dualities of gender and social expectations. Where it gets difficult for me to track causality or impact is when including the vast myriad of components in that "Gender and thought Processes characteristics". The obvious of sexuality or orientation (are they the same or different, only a rhetorical point) vs gender, but socializing vs genetics, power dynamics, sense of emotional expression or extrovert vs introvert, frilly vs casual functional (in the gal sense and the same sort of thing for guys). It all of a sudden becomes a huge ball of yarn of so full of different colors and tints. Up close I try to figure out the colors, from afar it is shades of gray. It is easy for me to try to say that it is darker or lighter gray but when I try to trace any one string and define it as the important or defining part, it gets way too confusing and I try to pick up an argument supporting one side or the other when there are way more facets than binary descriptors.
So please keep on expanding this thread but I hope that it stays as constructive as it's potential suggests.
Tia Anne
Quote from: Kylo on February 11, 2019, 12:42:09 PM
And I wonder how much resistance we're going to find in certain circles when we acknowledge that gender/sex identity is innate and not a social construct.
The thing is I think the brain is what has or some instances doesn't have the inmate gender markers as well as the body. The problem arises when the body and mind are not a matched pair.
The way I understand and have experienced it all is that the brain develops along different pathways depending on the hormone exposure in the womb. For me, despite having XY chromosomes my brain is 100% female and the fact my body never fit just made things... miserable. Once I fixed that little mistake I have no dysphoria, no depression, no suicidal thoughts. Before that? Life was barely worth living.
As a child I knew that being a boy didn't fit. I thought maybe I could be gay, but while I'm bisexual I prefer women usually. I lived as gay for 4 years or so and it sorta kinda fit. I tried being married and 'hetero' that just drove me to brink of really stupid things. I am me! There is no pretending or acting that will ever change that.
That suggest to me that once the brain is set in its pattern genes, societal expectations, religious expectations, or family pressure really can't change who you are. I am a women who was born with the wrong body. My genitals have little to do with either my sexual preference or gender identity.
Such wonderful and enlightening information am reading here.
To bad the naysayers and unbelievers don't listen and accept even if they are unable to understand.
Thank you all for posting your perspective, experience.
I must confess, reading these posts has left me wondering, questioning my understanding of myself even more. My journey of self discovery continues.
An d now, here I come to throw a wrench into the fine machinery of all those thoughts!
What is with people like I, who were born intersex, and have no real gender identity? As a little kid, I played with the toys of my sister, and with my cars. I had no preference for either kind of toys, they were just toys for me! Later, when I realize I was to be a boy, I tried to be a boy as good as I could. I had no desire to be a girl, cause nobody told me I should be a girl. I did not really care for the difference, I could have been in either roll. I played my boy/man roll for many years, I knew that I did not look like most man, but that was their problem, because the women liked my smooth body, and my almost 100% female emotions. All that went almost perfect, until my body decided to drag that girl out, who was hidden inside my nice male facade. But I never had any real gender identity, I don't know how my brain is wired, I was a male because I had learned to play that roll. Even today I have to make a conscious decission every morning, if I want to be a guy or a woman for the upcoming day. I don't really know what I am, I prefer to be a woman, because of my very feminin body, but my brain does not give me any direction to either preference.
I slowly start to believe that not only my body, but also my brain is kind of screwed up about the gender and sex roll I am supposed to be!
There is plenty of evidence to show that certain specific regions of the brain are sexually dimorphic. That is they react to the presence of androgen hormones when the brain is developing and become "hard wired" for life.
Biologist began to publish studies into this in mammalian brains as far back as 1970. More recent studies done both post mortem and by MRI imaging has shown patterns exist in these certain areas.
MRI can show the size and sometimes the neuron density in brain regions. What the studies have shown in the average male identified brain falls towards one end of total measurements across a sample. Average female brains fall to the other end. By using what we can see with MRI showed a certain amount of overlap in the volume of these brain sections across the sample populations. Despite the overlap in samples, the genders gravitate statistically to opposing ends of the total samples. What has been shown is that trans people show similar statistical alignment with the gender they identify as.
A logical theory would be:
1. We know these brain regions form each at differing intervals mostly in the second trimester of pregnancy.
2. We know as a whole that the presence of testosterone influences these segments to form toward one end of the measured spectrum.
It stands to reason that because there is variability in when these segments are sensitive, there would be some mixture within any person's brain. And that is essentially what has been found. No one is completely wired all male or all female. Even cis people have a slight mixture of these instinctual segments in their brains. This full spectrum of possibilities fits exactly with people's self reported identies. It makes logical sense why there is a gender spectrum and not just the binary ends.
My own experience is pretty binary. I have instinctual drives common to most cis women and many transwomen. One of the most binary instincts would be the deep desire to become pregnant and have a baby. Many transwomen report this experience myself included however some do not. Most cis women have experienced this but some cis gender women do not. This does not make anyone less of a woman. This is just an interesting correlation. This being said no cis man seems to ever experience such an instinct.
Gender is a particular set of instincts innate to each individual. We as a species tend to be mostly programmed to one of two binary ends but a significant middle ground exists between them.
Hello Everyone
This is the third time this extremely interesting subject has come up in the last three months.
Thank you Josie for your scientific analysis and I just wish to copy a similar analysis from HughE dated November 24th 2018 if I may please:
""It goes back to before you were even born.
There's a popular misconception that the sex you develop as is determined by X and Y chromosomes. In fact, all being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point forward is driven by hormones. More specifically, in the presence of testicular hormones, a foetus develops as male. In the absence of those hormones, it develops as female instead (ovarian hormones aren't actually necessary for female development to occur, female development is what always happens if there are no testicular hormones present). This is easily demonstrated by a condition called Swyer's syndrome, in which the testicles of a genetically male (XY) foetus fail to develop. People with the condition look female at birth, and they grow up to look and behave just like ordinary women. Often, the condition isn't even spotted until, as teenagers, they fail to start menstruating.
The genitals undergo their development from week 7 to week 12 after conception, so by the end of week 12, you already have male or female genitals, something which can no longer change (unless you have GRS later in life of course!). The brain is different though. The early stages of brain development involve very rapid cell division (to produce the enormous numbers of cells that will ultimately make up the brain), and the migration of those cells to where their final place in the brain will be (which is often far distant from where they formed). Those early steps don't appear to have any major sex differences, so hormones during that part of brain development don't make any difference to the eventual sex of the brain.
By about week 16, the very first cells have reached their final position in the brain. Once in position, they start to grow the nerve axons that will permanently connect them to the other brain cells they're supposed to be interacting with. More and more cells reach their final position and begin to grow their permanent connections to other cells, and by week 21, the cell migration stage of brain development is over, and the main task (ongoing for the remainder of prenatal development) is the growth of nerve axons and dendrites (the "wires" that connect up brain cells), and synaptogenesis, or creating the junctions between those wires. During that time, a process of programmed cell death takes place as well, in which brain cells surplus to requirements are removed. This also appears to be the time when hormones have the biggest impact in determining the sex of your brain, so I'm guessing that there's a male way and a female way of connecting up brain tissue, which are subtly different at the microscopic level. It may be that different cells are removed during the programmed cell death stage if high levels of testosterone are present (testosterone is the main testicular hormone that drives male development), than if there's little or no testosterone there.
So, what appears to make people MTF transgender is that their testicles developed as normal and, to begin with, were producing enough testosterone for male genital development to occur. However, things then went south, and their testosterone production slowed or stopped altogether, so that during the crucial week 16 to birth period for determining whether the brain gets wired up along male or female lines, there wasn't enough testosterone present for the brain to be wired up as male. Instead, it got the patterning that happens by default, the female kind.
As to what can cause testosterone production to go wrong, any of the conventional genetic causes of intersex can. However, so can environmental factors, for instance exposure to external estrogens. Unfortunately, doctors didn't realise this, and for several decades during the mid 20th century, they were giving pregnant women high doses of an artificial estrogen called DES, a drug which acts as a chemical castration agent in men. Many of us in the older age bracket either know or suspect we were exposed to that drug. My own view is that the effect probably isn't limited to just estrogens though, and any hormones or other drugs that interfere with testosterone production in adult men will, if they're administered during pregnancy, run the risk of producing MTF transgender babies. This is a hugely controversial thing to say of course, because an awful lot of hormones and other drugs used in medicine do interfere with testosterone production!
Anyway, hopefully that answers your question. You actually are the person you perceive yourself to be, someone whose body developed along male lines, but whose brain developed along female lines instead."
Hugs
Pamela
Quote from: pamelatransuk on February 14, 2019, 06:36:11 AM
So, what appears to make people MTF transgender is that their testicles developed as normal and, to begin with, were producing enough testosterone for male genital development to occur. However, things then went south, and their testosterone production slowed or stopped altogether, so that during the crucial week 16 to birth period for determining whether the brain gets wired up along male or female lines, there wasn't enough testosterone present for the brain to be wired up as male. Instead, it got the patterning that happens by default, the female kind.
Hugs
Pamela
Pamela, our theory sound pretty right!
But where will that leave people like me? All my biological intersex things had been done already before my brain got involved. But I do not , and never did, feel any clear gender identity, which would mean that I neither have a male nor a female connected brain. I also have no desire to ever be pregnant. What I have, are several mental disorders, among them are legasteny, non verbal learning disorder, and who knows what else.
Did my brain develop simply follow the development my body was doing? Make me between a man and woman, not only biologically but also mentally?
I have to say, I am really confused about myself, and I feel as if I am drifting between the genders. I very much dislike this feeling!
Quote from: Kylo on February 11, 2019, 12:42:09 PM
And I wonder how much resistance we're going to find in certain circles when we acknowledge that gender/sex identity is innate and not a social construct.
I think you put it extremely succinctly, @Kylo. Thing is, how do you even begin to prove it? And even if you could, what exactly are you proving? Under a microscope the brain doesn't really seem to have a gender at all. At least not by itself. There's no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. At least, not in science. And that's where a lot of the social construct reasoning comes from. Where I think it falls short is in realizing that there's more to a human being than a brain. Humans are stupidly complicated animals. Yeah, some of it probably is social. But there are plenty of things in nature that are innate to gender other species. And generally, we have no problem sighting those (the inate characteristics of other animals) when it suits us.