Since I have reason to use I have always felt that I am a girl trapped in the body of a child I have grown and although I tried to get this idea is inside me and I know that I am actually a woman but when telling my parents I always leave with his argument that "God made you man" "God is not wrong"
How can I rebut them?
I wish I knew the answer to this but I don't. If they don't accept it then they don't accept it unfortunately. You might need to do this without them I am afraid.
Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
Since I have reason to use I have always felt that I am a girl trapped in the body of a child I have grown and although I tried to get this idea is inside me and I know that I am actually a woman but when telling my parents I always leave with his argument that "God made you man" "God is not wrong"
How can I rebut them?
@AlexUABC Dear Alex: I am so very glad that you have become a member here and this is
your very first posting. I am happy to see that you found the Susan's Place Forums.
As you post on the forums you will be able to exchange thoughts and comments with others that are experiencing many of the same things that you are. I expect that you will be getting many members offering their thoughts and suggestions as you continue to post here.
This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation and as you continue to feel free to share with all of us.
I also want to warmly
WELCOME you to Susan's Place.
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.
As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members. When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others
and offer support to others. ....
***There is a very good chance that you might find that you will
make some new like-minded friends here.
Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
I have attached important and informative
LINKS that will help you to navigate around the Forums and will allow you to enjoy the features here.
Please look closely at the
LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.
Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
DanielleHere are some links to the site rules and stuff that all new members should be familiar with: Things that you should read
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) | Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) | Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.) | Cautionary Note (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,82221.0.html) |
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html) | News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html) | Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866) | Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html) |
@AlexUABC Oh, and another thing Alex...
Please plan to write a post and tell us more about yourself in the Introductions Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) so that other members will be aware of your arrival... therefore you will be able to share your thoughts with more members here.
Thank you again for joining Susan's Place and being involved in the Forums here.
Best wishes to you,
DanielleNOTE: Now after all of this Greeting Stuff I will let you have your thread back so you can pursue answers to your questions.
Other members here will certainly be along to give you their comments and suggestions that you may be seeking
Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM"God made you man" "God is not wrong"
*sigh* Unlike YOU God will still love me regardless? It's called
*forgiveness* and
*grace*!
lol There's only
One God but which
man-made "religion" we talkin' 'bout anyway?
"God blessed you with perfect teeth. How dare you get cavities."
"God gave you those eyes. It is an abomination to wear glasses, and contact lenses are disgusting."
"No hip surgery for you, Grandma! And I'm taking your painkillers and walker away."
"Jesus loves me, and God wants me to be happy. I prayed to them, and they said to tell you to stop trying to hurt me."
"In your ear."
I'm legally blind. I was born 3 1/2 months prematurely. I was also born with incorrect genitalia, which means I was born with a double whammy. Let me tell you right now that I never once have blamed God (whoever he or she really may be). People who grind a religious axe are using that to bolster their flawed, unreasonable beliefs, behind which many hide their own discrepancies and shortcomings. Spiritual bullies will never change what they think or believe. You can't reason with them or win them over. I've found that those who sincerely want to be good people will see who we really are and accept us with love, care and understanding. The rest don't matter and should be avoided because they cloak their hate and lack of openness within a thin coating of "love" that falls away all too quickly. I speak from much personal experience.
Hugs x 2,
Sarah From Chitown
[emoji257]
Despite not being Christian like those that usually confront me about being transgender, I am a pretty religious person.
However, I also don't subscribe to the "God doesn't make mistakes" philosophy.
I believe that evolution is ongoing and present, and we are part of that. I believe that we are the evolution of "what happens when this gender is born with that/those secondary sexual characteristics? What do we as transgender people choose to do about it?"
Humankind has evolved to the point where we can change our external gender, something that many of us have done, are currently doing, planning on doing, or choosing to not do. It is up to us as spiritual beings to choose or not choose to evolve past what "birth defects" we may have been born with when it comes to being transgender.
It is not up to humanity to judge us, yet they do. We judge ourselves, and many of us seek therapy in order to overcome the wrong that Society teaches us.
We are not wrong. We exist, we are valid and we are just as human as the next person, be they cis, trans, nonbinary, intersex or neutrois.
We are all human.
Ryuichi
I'm nonbinary, so if you buy me a couple 32 short suits that fit as well as my women's clothes, I'll wear them to work.
I've gone into men's stores, asked if they have anything that fit, got a negative response, and left. And that was when my waistline was four inches more than it is now! They just don't have anything that small.
God makes variety.
People make mistakes, the biggest one being believing that they know what God's plans are.
You can not reason with a person that does not want to listen.
There are a lot of things in the old and new testament that are just not done today. Stoning of adulterers, restricted diets, not working on certain days and the list can go on. So basically people have chosen to ignore parts and enforce on others parts of the bible. This is not to mention there are many contradiction in the bible. So some are playing god and choosing what to believe and what not to believe. Just my thoughts on organized exclusionary religion.
(Disclaimer: I am not Christian. But I was raised in that tradition, and I still can speak the language.)
The science is becoming more clear all the time that being transgender is something that we are born with. That means that God made us transgender. And He does not make mistakes.
For whatever reason, He made us this way. Though it is sometimes hard to think of it this way, it is a gift from Him. The Parable of the Talents tells us that, when we receive a gift like that, He doesn't want us to hide it. He wants us to run with it and make something of it.
Ultimately it may be futile to argue. Many people are willing to ignore reason and logic, so trying to argue with them may be pointless. But you should be confident in your heart that, wherever it leads, this is the path that God intended for you.
Quote from: KathyLauren on February 26, 2019, 06:20:39 PMThough it is sometimes hard to think of it this way, it is a gift from Him.
OMG @KathyLauren I'll second that! God is NON-BINARY and indeed it's all those "dual cis" folks who are causing most of the world's problems!
I was born right... I am transgender and being so makes me more me. I am stronger, more compassionate, more empathetic, and happier being just who I am. I don't wish I was anything else and anyone who tells me that I should somehow be what I am not has no place in my life simple. Any body who who claims that a god or gods has deemed I'm not correct subscribes to a flawed belief system in my book.
My niece is a Methodist pastor, she is also one of my strongest supporters. She says God make no mistakes, and God made you! How can you be a mistake if God, who makes no mistakes, made you?
From the dictionary -
religion - a particular system of faith and worship
faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
rebut - claim or prove that (evidence or an accusation) is false
I believe you seek the impossible. :D
I sympathize though, but as others have said, it's not an argument to win, all you can hope is that their love wins over in time and that they are overcome by a happier version of you.
Also as someone working in genetics of rare undiagnosed disease in newborns... I would say by their rules that God does indeed appear to get things wrong with some frequency. I know the parents of these children would happily correct God's mistake. Some have said he/she/it is testing their faith... that's fine... they haven't quite explained what he was doing to the child that lives 3 weeks of a brutal existence and dies. Seems a callous way to test someone's faith.
Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
How can I rebut them?
You can't change what another person thinks. I'd probably start asking myself "Why do I feel it's important to rebut them?" Let them think what's best for
THEM... You have your own life to live.
Hugs...
Sophia
Quote from: Dietlind on February 26, 2019, 08:03:45 PMGod make no mistakes, and God made you!
Linde What 'bout "Aliens"? Does God hate them too? Ya know my
*ears* are plenty pointy and large already, have "material" to work with, "dear God, can I plz have my
Vulcan TIPS" now? >:(
Quote from: Chloe on February 26, 2019, 08:19:28 PM
Linde What 'bout "Aliens"? Does God hate them too? Ya know my *ears* are plenty pointy and large already, have "material" to work with, "dear God, can I plz have my Vulcan TIPS" now? >:(
I don't know about them, because non of them ever ran across my path! If they are as pretty as the one in that picture you had, and if they are lesbian, I think God made them specifically for me!
I gather that you wish to resolve this with less conflict, so a majority of my arguments are invalid in your case. I lost a sister when I told her I was trans. Her "God" (ahem Priests) tell her to "love the sinner hate the sin", which still has the words "Hate" and "Sin" in it. What I am is not a sin.
You could try something simple, like "No. God made me a woman, and gave me a penis so that I might learn the value of a vagina." but that may start a larger argument.
You could change over to a more lgbt+ friendly brand of religion then let them know your God loves you. Alllll of you.
You could try explaining to them that you have been Called by God to be a woman, because it is the truth.
Yes, I have been called "Confrontational" in the past, which is why none of those lines of reasoning will suit you particularly well.
If you have access to youtube you could try listening to : The Baptist Pastor and His Transgender Friends | Mark Wingfield | TEDxCharlottesville and Why I chose my LGBTQ daughter over the Evangelical Church | Susan Cottrell | TEDxMileHigh. Not knowing if you are being stopped by a person calling themselves Christian, there are other videos about other religions as well.
The sad truth is that convincing a person of faith that their faith is "wrong" about something requires them to have a crisis of faith. It sounds like your parents can either choose to believe you, or what they have been taught.
I choose to believe that God put me here to learn, love, and grow. That means that God will teach, love, and nurture me regardless of my path as long as I do not break the commandments.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:35-40 KJV
As their child, are you also not your parents neighbor? That being the case, they should love you as they love themselves without question for all other laws look to these two commandments.
When you are an adult, if you are not already, you (who is made in His own image) will need to make a choice to either be true to yourself and live in the Image God made you (Trans woman), or hide His creation behind the shell of the body you were put in. Both choices are difficult and there is some pain either way. Only one path is honest and comes with peace of mind however.
#Iwontbedeleted
I see you. I accept you. I will pray for you,
Ricki
Quote from: Kate.claire on February 26, 2019, 08:16:03 PM
From the dictionary -
religion - a particular system of faith and worship
faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
rebut - claim or prove that (evidence or an accusation) is false
I believe you seek the impossible. :D
I sympathize though, but as others have said, it's not an argument to win, all you can hope is that their love wins over in time and that they are overcome by a happier version of you.
Also as someone working in genetics of rare undiagnosed disease in newborns... I would say by their rules that God does indeed appear to get things wrong with some frequency. I know the parents of these children would happily correct God's mistake. Some have said he/she/it is testing their faith... that's fine... they haven't quite explained what he was doing to the child that lives 3 weeks of a brutal existence and dies. Seems a callous way to test someone's faith.
@Kate.claireNicely said. Bringing logic to a matter of faith is usually a futile endeavor.
You can't have a logical debate where one side uses illogic (belief).
It is by definition impossible.
That doesn't mean you can't make the case and point out that their argument is illogical. If you have the energy or inclination for that.
Personally I go with the old adage, "It's a fool who takes up a fool's argument."
I've only got one relative who religious so it's not really the same, but personally I'd not bother. It would seriously annoy me and I'm not prepared to put up with it.
You can't argue/reason someone into agreeing with you if their initial perceptions aren't even based on fact but on feelings.
Attempting to tell someone their religious beliefs are wrong, is like trying to tell someone their political beliefs are wrong. You may as well talk to a wall. At least the wall won't hurt you for having your own beliefs.
Good Morning Everyone
I do have some personal experience of this problem.
First, I am Christian and it is my experience that it is usually the evangelical or "born again" ones who are so against transgender people like us whereas the more traditional Christians are sometimes quite tolerant. Apart from the wing within Christianity (and there are separate wings or philosophies within denominations), it is usually the younger generation who are more understanding of us.
Also I have recently lost a friend who cannot accept me as I am publicly transitioning in Summer and he is an evangelical and told me what I do now to crossdress mainly in private and what I intend in Summer is offensive to God. I tried to reason with him but it was pointless and we have gone our separate ways and I shall probably never see him again.
My 2 arguments to use to these people are:
1. God knows we are transgender and loves us all very much and would never discriminate on grounds of gender.
2. The genitalia do not determine our gender - they just have appeared due to an error which occurred before our birth during our mothers' pregnancy. Our gender is determined by our brain providing we are sane which I am sure you are.
Sadly these and other arguments are likely to fail as they have been brainwashed or are simply ignorant and wish to remain so.
I wish you, Alex, every success both in persuasion and on any future option you may choose as a transgirl.
Hugs
Pamela xx
I have some perspective on this. I'm not a christian, thankfully. I'm Jewish. So most of my experience is there. It's similar to christianity ideologically, especially in orthodox circles, but there are some big differences that make the two faiths incompatible.
There's this blessing that was written in the first century, that orthodox Jews say every morning. The conventional understanding of it, is that you're thanking god for not making you a woman. It's often written off by people, namely women as a throwback to an ancient ideology that's mostly dead today, in a postmodern world where women, for the most part, have the same basic freedoms and rights that men do. But that's an artifact of the translation.
I've always thought it was interesting, what a modern language like english does to ancient texts, often translating the words, but not the real meaning. There's so much tied up in the subtle nuances of a language like hebrew or aramaic that just gets thrown in the toilet the minute you translate it. And you have to, because the grammar is completely different. You can't, in english, wake up and thank god for not doing you into a woman. It wouldn't make sense. So you've got two options with the translation. The first, is to say "thank you god for not making me a woman," which is the one scholars and translators went with. Or, you could translate at as "Thank you god, for not transforming me into a woman." And that would be the correct translation, given the way the words are linked together, and the context of the block of blessings this one is in.
And that's all very acedemic. But it probably means that first century Jews, and by extension early Christians were aware of transgender people, even then. When you have a hormonal imbalance (like I did) that sparks a biological transition, it's nothing fun. It hurts. The existence of a blessing like this shows that there was knowledge of it, and that people approached transgender people with empathy, if not probably some amount of fear. If it wasn't common enough to matter, it wouldn't be in the prayer book.
There are also a couple of other examples in Jewish history and folklore. Like the 13th century rabbi who grew breasts to feed an infant after his (no doubt much younger) wife died. And that's widely retold as a miracle.
As far as the bible... nothing. It's just not in there.
A lot of the same arguments evangelical christians use to justify their anti-trans bigotry are based in exactly the same passages used by extreme christian groups to justify not using the medical system, not vaccinating their children. For a while in america, there was a christian anti-dentistry movement that used, again, all of the same passages. And it's fair to point out that these pieces of theological wisdom are so vague, that if taken this far outside of context... they could mean anything.
There is no anti-transgender content in the bible or anywhere in the commentary literature. Period. There's also no outright homophobia in the bible that isn't directly related to pedophelia by context. Even after Rome showed up and introduced the idea, they still struggled to understand it. You have to understand how simple these people were.
Taking their books, and stretching them beyond recognition to address the problems or concerns of today is silly, pointless, and I would argue incredibly dangerous.
But what do I know?
The only person who does not accept me, is a very long term female friend, who considers herself reborn! She feels I am physically and mentally sick, and need al medical help and God's help o put my rain back in order. And until this has not happened, she'd rather would stay away from me!
The funny thing about it is that her daughter is married to an evangelical pastor, who is a pastor at the same church she goes to, and both, her daughter and the pastor accept me and are still friends with me. The daughter feels that her mother just needs some time to come to terms with the fact that her very good old guy friend is now a girlfriend!
It is very often not the teaching of a relevant church, but the way some of the church members understand and interpret this teaching in their own minds that cause the problems!
There are some great answers here already. I've found that when you quote the Bible back to them, they're thrown off by this. If they're claiming that you have sinned you can bring up John 8:7.
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Or Matthew 7:1-2
"[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
The gist of them both is that it's only Gods right to judge you for your actions. It is not for mortal man.
Then you can always remind them of Matthew 22:36-40.
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Or simply put, Love God and love your fellow mankind, above all else.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
My favorite for dealing with evangelicals (and it really pisses them off when you sight this one) is Matthew 7:3-5.
Quote from: Monica on February 27, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
My favorite for dealing with evangelicals (and it really pisses them off when you sight this one) is Matthew 7:3-5.
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!
They are right in spite of the evidence that one has for religious people, there is no reasoning, no matter how much I explain to them, so I only have to look for my happiness, whether they accept me or not but I will not resent my whole life just because they say God is perfect.
Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 02:10:55 PM
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!
But how do they know this? Do they have noses? Do they see their noses on a daily basis without crossing their eyes?
Quote from: NatalieRene on February 27, 2019, 03:15:55 PM
But how do they know this? Do they have noses? Do they see their noses on a daily basis without crossing their eyes?
Just talked with my pastor niece about it. She says that this is a thing of the Pharisees, they are always right and self-righteous! In their eyes, they cannot be with failure! She has some of them in her parish!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 03:26:15 PM
Just talked with my pastor niece about it. She says that this is a thing of the Pharisees, they are always right and self-righteous! In their eyes, they cannot be with failure! She has some of them in her parish!
I have an even better argument! Dirty glasses lenses. I know my mind can filter out dirt and finger prints. When I clean them I see much better but I have to check them every now and then because even though specks of dust are all over them and it's clear as day when I take them off and look at them but while wearing them I don't see the dust.
Quote from: Dietlind on February 27, 2019, 02:10:55 PM
The only problem herewith is that many of them are so very convinced that nothing is in their eyes!
Well, that's when you make eye contact with them, and plainly tell them that you hope that they come to know Jesus. Hopefully with a straight face.
QuoteIsaiah 56:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
I personally won't be identifying as a eunuch in the future but I've pretended to be a man for so long, I am sure I can put up with being called a eunuch for a few minutes if it annoys an ignorant bible basher who doesn't even know their own scripture. I do like that bit though, 'better than of sons and of daughters'... that's really got to annoy the Christian right.
QuoteGenesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
So God started off trying to make a man but ended up making them both male and female... and then corrected the pronoun to 'them' for an intersex person.
This was a whole chapter before God decided to make woman... and how did God make woman? God made her from man. Took part of a man, and made a woman.
Quote(Matthew 18:7-9; Luke 17:1-4)
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
The logical conclusion being... If thy genitalia offend thee, cut if off...
And if all that fails... then you can go with the Alice argument:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmrwgifs.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2FAlice-Wonders-How-One-Could-Pay-Attention-To-a-Book-With-No-Pictures-In-It-In-Disneys-Alice-In-Wonderland.gif&hash=fdd03120d6d8a69c20c8585c9b481dbe78d0665e)
My niece, the pastor says she likes this the best
John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Many of the bigots that hate us (be they Christian or not) are also racists. Much of the hate is ingrained from church as well as school. Hopefully, as time progresses, society won't be teaching hate anymore.
Sadly, even if everyone were identical, society would still single out individuals based on inane traits beyond that person's control.
I've never had any luck, I usually just try my best to ignore them. I tried when I was younger, and just found that there was absolutely no reasoning with them, that no matter what passage I would throw their way, they would just say I was interpreting the passage incorrectly. In fact, if you go to Christian Forums, a lot of what you will see is various Christians arguing with one another, because they can not agree with what their book says.. thus the reason why we have thousands of denominations.
When people spew their religious nonsense my way regarding just about anything, I'll just tell them I'm not part of their religion, they will usually say something outrageous, and I let it slide because I don't want to play their dumb games. Of course, most religious people are not hate mongers, so this only applies to the wackjobs out there that think they have a deep and fundamental understanding of their God, the Cosmos, and everything in general, because they alone seem to think they have figured out the nature of everything.
How can you possibly argue against such arrogance? There is no refuting them, as far as they believe, they already have it all figured out.
In my experience there are religious individuals who closely scrutinize aspects of their faith, and prioritize parts of their religion that they feel are the primary tenets. It is several of these individuals who were more receptive to seeing all people as valued members of God or whatever community of worship they belong to. It's those people who can accept others who might not fit the modern intersections of politics and religion, or at investigate whether these standards actually fit the overarching spirit of their belief system.
Then there are those who face a sense of cognitive dissonance when they find out a loved one is transgender or gay. Their road is usually the hardest internally because they go back and forth so much it makes me dizzy. Sometimes they come around, sometimes they don't. In my experience it is usually somewhere in the middle.
Then there are those that hold so close to scripture that any challenge to it causes them a form of emotional pain. Stubborn faith. It's very very difficult to find an opportunity to have a genuine and empathy driven discussion here. I'm sorry but often these individuals tend to "wait to speak" and do not actively listen. I have yet to make any form of inroads here.
And yes there are those in the middle of each of those descriptions. Faith is like a spectrum in some way for people in general. I used to be Roman Catholic and stepped away from that path, but haven't turned my back on the fundamental tenets of Jesus and his teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and sacrifice. Currently I can find no organized Christian Faith that will accept my family and myself without suspicion and derision.
I will still keep my beliefs, and hope that I find more out that that date to listen with an empathy filled heart and soul.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First let me say I in no way intend to offend anyone by writing this, religion is a very touchy and personal subject. On the other hand, if it is going to be weaponized to try to give someone a reason not to accept me as I was born and reduce my chances of keeping friends and family, this discussion needs to be had with many people's input.
I grew up in a very conservative religious home. I have since traveled and experienced life outside that home. I don't know if there is a all knowing creator, but I would hope anyone Omnipotent enough to create a universe would understand and have the grace to love ALL the creatures they made. Also, WE know we were born this way, so if the creator made us in error, how could we possibly be held accountable if it is wrong?
There are many religions and many versions of the bible. The Bible I grew up with claimed the New Testament was the one we are held accountable to since God realized we could never follow the laws in the old one. That said, it makes many fine points as to how crazy it was. I believe the Jewish religion believes Jesus was a great guy, but just a man and they still must go by the old law in the Old Testament, but I am not familiar with the Jewish Faith. That said, here is a link to a letter written to Dr Laura after she quoted the old testament and said homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of God. It is quite comical, yet really drives home how crazy following it to the letter would be.
Without further delay, Why can't I own a Canadian?
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/areasontosmile/2011/11/dear-dr-laura-why-cant-i-own-a-canadian.html
Quote from: Jennifer300 on February 28, 2019, 06:14:03 AM
I grew up in a very conservative religious home.
My mother insisted on Catholic church but father? Not so much, didn't care, was a "reformist" Protestant but it was I who chose Jesuit University and really do think both Testaments, written by people (like us?), have to be taken within the author context they were written. It's called "redaction criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redaction_criticism)" and some "religious attitudes" are just way too literal & simplistic.
QuoteWhen someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
You can "debate" all you want but actions speak louder than words and the modern example of "cis lifestyles" is worse, certainly not better!
Big thing back then was "begetting", "sowing of seed" and "spreading of the faith" but what do you now say to an unsustainable world of over 8 billion people? Make room! Someone has to go? Yeah abortion? More
WAR not a bad thing?
lol One could argue "homosexual lifestyles" are providing one valuable service! And what about eunuchs? Ever look up the definition? Comes pretty close to what us "trans" are doing (ok ok sans the gender-crossing") but "God" supposedly admired and loved them!
Gotta get 3yr old ready for school sorry
END OF DISCUSSION!
Quote from: Charmed on February 27, 2019, 11:46:28 PM
And yes there are those in the middle of each of those descriptions. Faith is like a spectrum in some way for people in general. I used to be Roman Catholic and stepped away from that path, but haven't turned my back on the fundamental tenets of Jesus and his teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and sacrifice. Currently I can find no organized Christian Faith that will accept my family and myself without suspicion and derision.
I will still keep my beliefs, and hope that I find more out that that date to listen with an empathy filled heart and soul.
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I am very much like you, grew up Roman Catholic, but do not practice this anymore for many decades already. I am a Christian, no doubt about this, but I am searching for a church that could become a religious home for em. I am leaning Methodist, because my nice is a wonderful pastor of this denomination (I love my nice like crazy), but I cannot make my belonging to a church anchored on a single pastor only. But whatever happens, i will remain a
Christian for the rest of my life)
Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
Since I have reason to use I have always felt that I am a girl trapped in the body of a child I have grown and although I tried to get this idea is inside me and I know that I am actually a woman but when telling my parents I always leave with his argument that "God made you man" "God is not wrong"
How can I rebut them?
"God doesn't make mistakes. And you don't get to define what 'mistake' means. She made me this way."
Quote from: Steph2.0 on February 28, 2019, 09:50:45 AM
"She made me this way."
And that's when the fight started :D
I had 12 years of Catholic school, lots of Bible study and theological hair splitting. I found Matthew to be very useful, particularly with this reasoning:
God and my Transgender Nature
God does not make mistakes. God does test us, and those around us, through His gifts. He may grant us gifts to use in our lives, if only we can recognize them. What we do with those gifts matters.
Recall the "Parable of the talents". A man going on a journey calls his three servants together. He entrusts 5 talents (a talent is about 80 pounds of silver, roughly 20 years wages at the time.) to one servant he sees as being very able, 2 talents to a capable servant, and one talent to the third servant. Then, he leaves. The servant with 5 talents invests them, and makes another 5 talents. The servant with 2 talents invests them, and earns another 2 talents. The third servant buries his talent, fearful of risking it. The man returns after a long period and settles accounts with them. The first servant returns 10 talents, the original 5 plus the investment gain, and the man praises him, granting him a high position. The second servant returns 4 talents, the original 2 plus the gain, and the man praises and promotes him as well. The third servant returns the original talent he buried. The man decries his wicked and slothful ways, takes the one talent from him and gives it to the servant with the 10 talents. "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Now, when I was created, I had a family that was fairly well off, a good home, and I would develop with an intelligent and curious mind, the potential for a good education, as a white male. I think God looked at this and thought "OK, this one has it pretty easy, and needs a special challenge to fully develop. I think I'll give this one the soul of a woman and see what they do with that." God caused my mother and doctor to use a new medication, DES, that made my brain ready to receive a female soul.
Now, having been granted this gift, and realizing what I have, what am I to do with it? Shall I bury it, hiding it from the light, so at the end of my days I can only return this gift, unused and uninvested? Or should I bring this gift into the light of day, use it to it's fullest extent, to let it grow and flourish, for the benefit of myself and those around me, so I may return this gift manyfold at the end of my days?
Now, there are those who would have me bury it, suffer in silence, for this gift makes them uncomfortable. At The End Of Days, they may very well be cast into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This thread, "
How to refute religious arguments?" is a fools' errand and if your church, or more precisely its congregation, espouses
hate & discrimination in any form then I suggest you simply seek out another
their loss not ours! We are not "the problem" rather
THEY ARE and if ya don't believe me just look at the volume of any establishments policy on "Sexual Harassment" as compared to all other "discriminations" combined!
My school's "policy", directly endorsed by the "Catholic Church" btw, is as follows:
Quote from: Fairfield University . . .. . does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, marital status etc etc . . .
( fairfield.edu/handbook/policiesprocedures/#Non-Discrimination )
Religion can either "adapt or die", the world is an ever-changing place and, of course, it's up to "us" not "
them" if it's ever going to get better.
I usually start off with something along the lines of:
''Religion (or faith), is a matter of perception, it varies from person to person, either minor differences or wild''
With this I state the differences of perception between individuals, even within the same religious group. Like... some Christians accept us, and some don't.
If they continue their religious arguments with the same righteous tone I just tell them off, ending the argument:
''See? Different perceptions. I do not share yours.''
I will, sometimes, put Christians under the test with ''I'm a Satanist''. To see what they know of it (and most don't)!.
Quote from: Dietlind on February 28, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
I am very much like you, grew up Roman Catholic, but do not practice this anymore for many decades already. I am a Christian, no doubt about this, but I am searching for a church that could become a religious home for em. I am leaning Methodist, because my nice is a wonderful pastor of this denomination (I love my nice like crazy), but I cannot make my belonging to a church anchored on a single pastor only. But whatever happens, i will remain a
Christian for the rest of my life)
I was also raised Catholic, but left the church after they condoned the child abuse I endured. I became Baptist, and left that church after realizing just how hateful and demeaning they were. I am still Christian, but with no church. I see no need to attend services filled with
snakes in the pews in order to worship Christ. I can do that just fine at home or in my vehicle, and don't have to be a show off about it. There is a passage somewhere about those whom go to church to show off religion, and many that do are sinners out of church. Nobody need answer to them. Jesus said his father loves everyone unconditionally, but they will be judged by their deeds.
As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.
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Quote from: Melinda@heart on February 28, 2019, 10:35:20 PM
As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.
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They see it different (learnt through countless hours of "Bible Study" sessions during which a homophobic cleric told them what to believe or not!
As in my case, my friend does love me, so she says, and that is the reason that she prays for me that I can let go of this sinful lifestyle! All done in the "name of love" so they say!
Michelle
Thank you for utilizing "The Parable of the Talents" for our cause. I like it and I shall also utilize when the right occasion occurs.
Linde
Further to my reply25 above, it is the same with my (former) friend. He says he will pray for me meaning with a view to correcting my ways. Sad these people are blind to Jesus's love.
Hugs to all
Pamela
Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 01, 2019, 06:52:43 AM
Linde
Further to my reply25 above, it is the same with my (former) friend. He says he will pray for me meaning with a view to correcting my ways. Sad these people are blind to Jesus's love.
Hugs to all
Pamela
Pamela, i just leave those kind of people behind, and pray for them to see the light one of these days. If they feel that they are still my friends at that time, I will embrace them fully again and thank god for another wonder that was done.
I do not have enough time left of my life to be othered with negative people. I want to live those years I have left as a happy woman, and have as much joy and love around me, as possible.
Linde
Quote from: Melinda@heart on February 28, 2019, 10:35:20 PM
As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.
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People seem to love the old testament laws because it gives them a feeling of superiority when they follow only a few and condemn those who don't follow quite as many.
Being accepting as taught in the new testament doesn't feed the ego.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on March 01, 2019, 10:18:41 AM
People seem to love the old testament laws because it gives them a feeling of superiority when they follow only a few and condemn those who don't follow quite as many.
Being accepting as taught in the new testament doesn't feed the ego.
That's why I started with Isaiah 56:4-5 and then moved onto Genesis before the new testament stuff. The biggest problem is Deuteronomy 22:5 followed by 1 Corinthians 11:14-15. But those are only a problem if they continue to see you as male and not as female. If you have undergone surgery then it is suggest by Isaiah 56:4-5 that you are neither male or female and therefore free to choose how you wish to identify.
Of course, for me, and I mean no offense to those who do have faith... this is all nonsense. Hence the conclusion of my post... but if you wish to argue with those who have faith then you need to start from a position of faith. People will create barriers if you try to dismiss their beliefs, instead you show understanding and seek to change the argument with examples from within their faith to show them that there is an alternative way in which to view their beliefs that leaves room for your existence. It is not ideal but it is better than simply dismissing them. We need not be at each others throats when there is a way to coexist respecting each others' rights.
Quote from: Alice (nym) on March 02, 2019, 12:57:31 PM
But those are only a problem if they continue to see you as male and not as female. If you have undergone surgery then it is suggest by Isaiah 56:4-5 that you are neither male or female and therefore free to choose how you wish to identify.
Hello again Alice (nym)
The trouble with these hardline evangelicals is that they continue to see us as male either before or after HRT and/or surgery since they are blind and wish to remain so.
They also maintain that any action we may take on gender is an offence to God as he chose our gender and we have no right to go against his plan. This is ridiculous as God knows we are transgender and wishes us to seek happiness and will love us whether we take action on our transgender status or not.
I am 13 months HRT and will be publicly transitioning in Summer.
Hugs to all
Pamela
Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 03, 2019, 08:44:20 AM
Hello again Alice (nym)
The trouble with these hardline evangelicals is that they continue to see us as male either before or after HRT and/or surgery since they are blind and wish to remain so.
They also maintain that any action we may take on gender is an offence to God as he chose our gender and we have no right to go against his plan. This is ridiculous as God knows we are transgender and wishes us to seek happiness and will love us whether we take action on our transgender status or not.
I am 13 months HRT and will be publicly transitioning in Summer.
Hugs to all
Pamela
And none of their kids get vaccinated, because God wants them to get mumps and measles. Cleft palette? Leave it that way. Look at all the birth defects. At one time, they killed all children born with any defect. They changed that law, and seem to love looking at deformed children as they raise money to raise awareness, but none to combat those defects.
When they choose ignorance, you cannot educate them.
@AlexUABC
You have received many excellent responses with a wealth of insight on this issue.
People who comment on your being transgender by saying things like, "God doesn't make mistakes," are usually not looking to understand; they're usually looking to shut you down. They aren't listening.
On the off chance that they are, my preferred response is to tell them that it's a birth defect: your brain your body, your gender and your sex, are divergent. You are no more a "mistake" than were Stephen Hawking, Helen Keller, or any other of those incredible, inspirational human beings who suffered a disability that was forced upon them and overcame – and did so spectacularly.
In centuries past, people used to look at those with horrible physical afflictions as "cursed," and cross the street to avoid them. They blamed the victim, because they couldn't deal with what they saw. There are still places in the world where this is done, e.g. to children with cleft palates. I think this is what is going on today, with us, when "religious" people become violently vociferous against us. They are fleeing a reality they cannot process.
I think there is reason for us being as we are. Disability teaches compassion, both to the sufferer and those around her – or can do so. The sufferer must rise above bitterness and despair, while those around her must rise above fear and prejudice. And so we all learn to love one another a little more.
You could always try this one:
DANIEL 1:9
Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
Not ideal, 'prince' but it might get them off your back. Still think Matthew is the way to go... if it is going to cause you to sin then cut it off.
Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
Since I have reason to use I have always felt that I am a girl trapped in the body of a child I have grown and although I tried to get this idea is inside me and I know that I am actually a woman but when telling my parents I always leave with his argument that "God made you man" "God is not wrong"
How can I rebut them?
Don't rebuke, just smile and say to them that God is in each and everyone of us. We are each his master pieces
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Quote from: AlexUABC on February 27, 2019, 02:52:17 PM. . . whether they accept me or not but I will not resent my whole life just because they say God is perfect.
@AlexUABC God
IS perfect . . . and so are
YOU so . . .
Just talk to Him . . . and let all those "religious fanatics" learn how to
get over it!
From South America? You
Catholic? Protestant heathens don't count but my Jesuit University, one of the most prominent in New England U.S.A,
says "gender identity" is AOK!
This will probably sound facile, but ...
Why bother? Seriously.
I am not educated enough in scripture to argue with people who view it differently than I do. I would suggest speaking to a priest in a more accepting church (There are quite a few Christian churches LGBT friendly like Episcopalian).
You might argue that you feel God has given this life to you to ensure you learn something before going to heaven, or to perhaps test them to see if they really are living by God's laws.
I have linked a couple of videos below that may help from Ted Talks. I am not sure about linking rules, so I have also included the title for searching if they are removed.
Ricki
Why I chose my LGBTQ daughter over the Evangelical Church | Susan Cottrell | TEDxMileHigh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP01bH9Ljf4&t=678s
The Bible: A queer positive book | Rev. Dr. Cheri DiNovo | TEDxToronto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK1evMNRVzA
My usual tactic?
"Do you believe women should be shunned to a shame hut for having a period?" "hve you ever eaten food prepared by a menstruating woman?" "do you shave?" "do you eat shellfish/pork?" "when was the last time you sacrificed a pigeon?"
I admit, i get peverse enjoyment out of quoting the various laws from leviticus at anyone who tries to use it as an excuse to be bigoted.
I mean, according to the bible, period sex is on par punishment wise as sleeping with your SISTER!
like seriously?
Also, Jesus preached love and acceptance and stated that it was only god's place to judge. Also if god didn't make mistakes why does disability exist and why is it okay to take medications for lifelong conditions, for illness, use mobility aids etc when it was apparently "gods plan" that this person couldn't walk or whatever too? Maybe it wasn't a mistake, but ultimately, mortals aren't supposed to understand the plans or thinking of gods.
Another thing I like to mention is that Pride is a deadly sin, and there's little more prideful than claiming you know god's will.
*smirk* That usually gets em pretty flustered.
Ultimately, proper christians don't need to be rebutted because they are good people. But those who need a good education well, I rather like showing that I have actually read the bible and probably have read more of it than THEY have. HAH.
For those who would call my HRT into question and talk about Gods will and speak about my body being a temple that I spoil. I would look out at any congregation and then ask the following:
Who colors their hair? What, you disagree with the hair God gave you?
Who has had botox ?
Who has hair plugs?
Who had liposuction ?
Who has a tattoo or piercing?
Who had a breast enlargement or reduction?
How about a tummy tuck or fanny lift?
How many wear glasses or contacts?
So who is left that has not done anything ?