While there has been a proliferation of support Groups over on FB finding comprehensive information about the changes hormones does to our libidos is nil. Even most articles seem too clinical now I know we can explore our bodies to see how they have changed to due to the changes wrought by hormones.
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I experienced comprehensive changes in the way I experience things and a very significant increase in libido, Overall I love what hrt has done.
Hi,
From my experience and mistakes.
When I was on Spiro and E IM my goal was high E and 0 T. Before, during and after group meetings (several different locations) we would talk about a lot of things. A lot of the times there would be discussion around T, E and spiro. Everyone was driving to 0 T.
What I have learned is that no T no libido. No T and a very difficult time to orgasm.
Pre-Op at a point I could not orgasm. Post op I could not orgasm for 5 months. I finally achieved one but it was with a lot of effort. I had this no T thing driven into me by myself all my life. When others confirmed my thought I had a difficult time using T.
My GCS doctor Dr. McGinn told me to shoot for 36 to 50 ng/dl. It was 2.5 years after GCS that I started to use T. My T last week was 25 ng/dl. I have a low libido and I can orgasm. I use an anal vibrator, a vaginal vibrator and a magic wand. I have some intense orgasms and 3 or 4 in a 20 minute session.
Anyhow, I plan to increase my T gel a bit and shoot for 36 to 50 ng/dl. I could double the gel and hit the mark. If I do that I may have a strong libido. I may do that in a cycle to. Perhaps the second half of my 2 week sub-Q cycle.
If I was to do this over I would go to my GCS doctor for HRT. Next best is a endo that sees trans. I found one near by me in New Town. Hormones is a balance and not an all or nothing proposition. Your body needs a balance and a good endo should be able to help you.
Anyhow, I hope this helps.
I have no libido for several years now, actually, for many years. However, now getting well again after my recent orchi, which made sure for good that I do not have any T around, I seem to discover a tiny bit of libido coming up now and than!
Could it be that not the suppression of T, but the suppressant was the reason that I had no libido?
I am sure that I have no T, but I don't take spiro anymore either, and now think a little bit of libido is coming back.
Does this sound realistic, or is that a wishfully dream only?
Quote from: Dietlind on March 06, 2019, 04:58:01 PM
I have no libido for several years now, actually, for many years. However, now getting well again after my recent orchi, which made sure for good that I do not have any T around, I seem to discover a tiny bit of libido coming up now and than!
Could it be that not the suppression of T, but the suppressant was the reason that I had no libido?
I am sure that I have no T, but I don't take spiro anymore either, and now think a little bit of libido is coming back.
Does this sound realistic, or is that a wishfully dream only?
Cis women get testosterone from their pituitary and adrenal glands. After an orchiectomy, trans women will also get T from them. Without the Spiro (or whichever antiandrogen) your T level will start coming up from 0-20ng/dl to normal female range of 15-75 ng/dl. Mine was as low as 8ng/dl. I'll get my levels checked again in a month.
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Quote from: StacyRenee on March 06, 2019, 05:53:07 PM
Cis women get testosterone from their pituitary and adrenal glands. After an orchiectomy, trans women will also get T from them. Without the Spiro (or whichever antiandrogen) your T level will start coming up from 0-20ng/dl to normal female range of 15-75 ng/dl. Mine was as low as 8ng/dl. I'll get my levels checked again in a month.
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Thanks, I did not even think about those two glands! Who knows what will happen! I was just called by my endo to double my daily estrogen dose.
Double the E and some T might wake up that old libido back to female levels, who knows?
I have been on Spiro for over 25 years, due to congestive heart failure. I have been celibate for about 22 years. However I can still have an orgasim but I can't get hard. I can also orgasim from a nice nipple rub. It just takes extra time. So you do have something to look forward too. Be patient, enjoy the intimacy.
Quote from: Dietlind on March 06, 2019, 04:58:01 PM
I have no libido for several years now, actually, for many years. However, now getting well again after my recent orchi, which made sure for good that I do not have any T around, I seem to discover a tiny bit of libido coming up now and than!
Could it be that not the suppression of T, but the suppressant was the reason that I had no libido?
I am sure that I have no T, but I don't take spiro anymore either, and now think a little bit of libido is coming back.
Does this sound realistic, or is that a wishfully dream only?
Ahh, you've hit the nail on the head.. This idea is part of the reason for the growing call to discontinue standard usage of spiro and other antiandrogens - it's beginning to become obvious that the risks outweigh the benefits, if any.
Being post-op and no longer taking an AA of any kind means that you should now be functioning on (mostly) adrenal T, at female-normal levels - this will likely lead to improved libido and overall improved good health.
Quote from: PurplePelican on March 06, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Ahh, you've hit the nail on the head.. This idea is part of the reason for the growing call to discontinue standard usage of spiro and other antiandrogens - it's beginning to become obvious that the risks outweigh the benefits, if any.
Being post-op and no longer taking an AA of any kind means that you should now be functioning on (mostly) adrenal T, at female-normal levels - this will likely lead to improved libido and overall improved good health.
I hope this will work out this way. Starting today, I was told to double my estrogen intake!
I'm pre-op, been on HRT 21 months, and I never think about sex the way I used to. Cuddling? Snuggling? I'm all in!
If I had a vajayjay, I do believe I'd welcome a visitor; but I can't tell you how grateful I am that testosterone is now a memory. I'm normal at last. :)
If you're pre-op and can't get/don't want erections, anal orgasms are the way to go.
I enjoy multiple full body orgasms that way.
So much more satisfying in my opinion too.
With penile orgasms it's just one and done, roll over and sleep... Kinda boring actuality.
With the full body orgasms, each one I have gets me more turned on.... Yummy!
You need to rewire your brain and how you think about sex.
I've been on HRT for 3 years now and can still do both, but I really prefer the full body orgasms.
Quote from: LexiDreamer on March 06, 2019, 08:57:03 PM
If you're pre-op and can't get/don't want erections, anal orgasms are the way to go.
I enjoy multiple full body orgasms that way.
So much more satisfying in my opinion too.
With penile orgasms it's just one and done, roll over and sleep... Kinda boring actuality.
With the full body orgasms, each one I have gets me more turned on.... Yummy!
You need to rewire your brain and how you think about sex.
I've been on HRT for 3 years now and can still do both, but I really prefer the full body orgasms.
Pretty much only get full body orgasms now from any kind of stimulus. Nice thing? They just keep going and going. :) As for anything penis related? Don't even feel it. Works kinda sort sometimes but its not wired to my brain anymore.
Hi everyone. I have done quite a bit of reading on hormones and normal levels in women and I think it needs to be said that the adrenal glands produce only a small fraction of the Testosterone in women. Someone please check that but I'm 99% sure this is true. The ovaries are where most of the testosterone is produced so I think (totally an amateur opinion) that if you want to have a more normal functioning female experience you should be talking to your doctor about small dose testosterone and expect to have a libido. Not having one or having difficulty climaxing is cheating yourself out of an important part of life. And its just not normal. Consider women who have had a hysterectomy. They suffer from low to no libido because their normal levels of testosterone are too low. *Estrogen as well.
My endo told me that he plans to adjust my estrogen and testosterone levels to typical female levels. He said hew wants to do that about 6 weeks after my orchi, to make sure that everything in my body has "normalized".
I know that spiro killed any kind of libido in me. Now that all the spiro effects have let my body, I think that I can identify ever so little desire to do something with my sexuality. I have to see how that develops, because i just started to take double amounts of estrogen. I wonder if high level of estrogen can also be positive for ones libido?
Quote from: Dietlind on March 07, 2019, 04:12:28 PM
My endo told me that he plans to adjust my estrogen and testosterone levels to typical female levels. He said hew wants to do that about 6 weeks after my orchi, to make sure that everything in my body has "normalized".
I know that spiro killed any kind of libido in me. Now that all the spiro effects have let my body, I think that I can identify ever so little desire to do something with my sexuality. I have to see how that develops, because i just started to take double amounts of estrogen. I wonder if high level of estrogen can also be positive for ones libido?
Its my experience that one without the other (or weirdly low levels) does equal zero sex drive. There are some good papers on this that are very recently published. The short version is that Men with great Testosterone levels still have low to no libido if they have abnormally low estrogen levels. This is all my amateur opinion but the body has receptors that are designed to load Testosterone and others for Estrogen.
I realize that telling a audience of m2f folks that they need testosterone probably sounds insane or horrible but all I'm suggesting is to have a healthy female level. Post Orchi you just aren't going to be able to count on the adrenal glands to contribute enough as they produce fractional amounts compared to Testes and Ovaries.
Btw the same thing holds true for f2m folks. I really think they should also talk to their endo about supplying a small dose of estrogen to achieve typical male levels of estrogen.
I don't want this to get TMI but first hand I can report that fixing this has changed a totally zero libido (Maybe negative as I was avoiding sex) to having a good libido. I quickly felt the change. I just want to say you don't know what your missing until you have it again. I think having libido is much better then having none. Which probably sounds obvious.
Hopefully someone else can ask their endo to try this and report back so I'm not a single voice in the wilderness.
Quote from: JanePlain on March 08, 2019, 01:31:13 PM
Its my experience that one without the other (or weirdly low levels) does equal zero sex drive. There are some good papers on this that are very recently published. The short version is that Men with great Testosterone levels still have low to no libido if they have abnormally low estrogen levels. This is all my amateur opinion but the body has receptors that are designed to load Testosterone and others for Estrogen.
I realize that telling a audience of m2f folks that they need testosterone probably sounds insane or horrible but all I'm suggesting is to have a healthy female level. Post Orchi you just aren't going to be able to count on the adrenal glands to contribute enough as they produce fractional amounts compared to Testes and Ovaries.
Btw the same thing holds true for f2m folks. I really think they should also talk to their endo about supplying a small dose of estrogen to achieve typical male levels of estrogen.
I don't want this to get TMI but first hand I can report that fixing this has changed a totally zero libido (Maybe negative as I was avoiding sex) to having a good libido. I quickly felt the change. I just want to say you don't know what your missing until you have it again. I think having libido is much better then having none. Which probably sounds obvious.
Hopefully someone else can ask their endo to try this and report back so I'm not a single voice in the wilderness.
I'm on zoladex (t inhibitor) and estradot patches last test was estradiol 243 pmol/L and testosterone 0.7 nmol/L (low end of normal for female) and my sex drive is insanely high! So I don't think t is the magic bullet for libido for me its 75% mental and the rest seems to be down to e. More e means totally obsessed me.
Quote from: krobinson103 on March 08, 2019, 04:41:35 PM
I'm on zoladex (t inhibitor) and estradot patches last test was estradiol 243 pmol/L and testosterone 0.7 nmol/L (low end of normal for female) and my sex drive is insanely high! So I don't think t is the magic bullet for libido for me its 75% mental and the rest seems to be down to e. More e means totally obsessed me.
Did you have any medical intervention like an orchi or SRS? I should have something like female levels, I hope. And I am on a pretty high dose of estrogen now, I just wonder what the outcome of my test will be in about 4 weeks.
I would not mind to have a little bit of libido back, just to get that warm feeling if one sees an attractive person (for me that would be a female). Summer is coming to the Gulf of Mexico, and I am 30 minutes away from the cool beaches and all the European bikini girls! ;D
Quote from: Dietlind on March 08, 2019, 09:37:50 PM
Did you have any medical intervention like an orchi or SRS? I should have something like female levels, I hope. And I am on a pretty high dose of estrogen now, I just wonder what the outcome of my test will be in about 4 weeks.
I would not mind to have a little bit of libido back, just to get that warm feeling if one sees an attractive person (for me that would be a female). Summer is coming to the Gulf of Mexico, and I am 30 minutes away from the cool beaches and all the European bikini girls! ;D
orchi coming up soon, but, as yet, no.
Quote from: krobinson103 on March 08, 2019, 10:08:26 PM
orchi coming up soon, but, as yet, no.
Good luck for your upcoming one. Mine is almost forgotten already, still little discomfort, but not bothersome. I don't feel any real different, just that the really bad for me spiro is gone for good. Dressing in tight female pants is way easier, the pretty atrophied penis is not much more than an overgrown clitoris anymore, and tucks itself away nicely in between the skin folds.
I don't know if I will get any different feeling in the future, but currently it is not a life chaging event.
I was able to orgasm pre-op right up to the night before my surgery, I needed some Viagra to be able to stay erect for penetrative sex, however orgasm didn't depend on that. My T was close to zero, around 12-18 ng/dl.
Quote from: SadieBlake on March 09, 2019, 07:34:53 AM
I was able to orgasm pre-op right up to the night before my surgery, I needed some Viagra to be able to stay erect for penetrative sex, however orgasm didn't depend on that. My T was close to zero, around 12-18 ng/dl.
But how did you keep your libido going? I can look at the best porn (or read it, I was always more girly even in that, and preferred written erotica for the pics in my mind), and I feel nothing, I am more interested in the makeup of the girls than in anything else going on. Porn has become boring to me, P rather watch a film with real action in it!
As long as I don't get that libido back, all the wonderful descriptions of what one can do have no value for me!
Quote from: Dietlind on March 07, 2019, 04:12:28 PM
My endo told me that he plans to adjust my estrogen and testosterone levels to typical female levels. He said hew wants to do that about 6 weeks after my orchi, to make sure that everything in my body has "normalized".
I know that spiro killed any kind of libido in me. Now that all the spiro effects have let my body, I think that I can identify ever so little desire to do something with my sexuality. I have to see how that develops, because i just started to take double amounts of estrogen. I wonder if high level of estrogen can also be positive for ones libido?
From what I've read and discussed with my Endo everybody has receptors for Estrogen and Testosterone. Heavy on one and light on the other the male / female thing. However if you zero out one (or the other) your going to have an abnormal balance. A goofed up male / female thing. Its likely to have several different effects but I think the short version is that having low to no Estrogen or Testosterone will make your libido crash. And this appears to be the same be you CIS Male or Female and of course anyone transgender.
The problem of low libido being connected to low estrogen in men is the focus of some very interesting medical papers that are 2017, 2018, 2019 So this is somewhat new but worth reading and talking to your doctor about. I'm sure that CIS Males are just as freaked out about taking ANY estrogen as M2F folks are about having anything other then 0 testosterone. The levels of Testosterone and Estrogen after an orchiectomy or removal of ovaries is abnormally low. The addrenal glands just don't produce enough. Hopefully some post Orchie folks can report real world levels but everything I read says that addrenal glands produce only a small fraction of the hormones you need.
I can personally report that working for a balance has turned my less then zero sex drive into a pretty good one. Its a little shocking after years of having none but its great. Truly a part of life you should not discard without a fight.
Your results may vary but its worth checking out. I think...
Quote from: Dietlind on March 09, 2019, 05:15:07 PM
But how did you keep your libido going? I can look at the best porn (or read it, I was always more girly even in that, and preferred written erotica for the pics in my mind), and I feel nothing, I am more interested in the makeup of the girls than in anything else going on. Porn has become boring to me, P rather watch a film with real action in it!
As long as I don't get that libido back, all the wonderful descriptions of what one can do have no value for me!
I had the same reaction to adult material. Written or video "porn" just seemed at best uninteresting at worst it put me off. Fiddling with my mix to have a non zero level was like turning on a switch. There are a lot of porn like topics that put me off but a good read or something tasteful in video can get me very much in the mood! And its been a huge AH HAH for my Endo and therapist who have heard me complain yearly of zero libido.
Quote from: JanePlain on March 14, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
From what I've read and discussed with my Endo everybody has receptors for Estrogen and Testosterone. Heavy on one and light on the other the male / female thing. However if you zero out one (or the other) your going to have an abnormal balance. A goofed up male / female thing. Its likely to have several different effects but I think the short version is that having low to no Estrogen or Testosterone will make your libido crash. And this appears to be the same be you CIS Male or Female and of course anyone transgender.
The problem of low libido being connected to low estrogen in men is the focus of some very interesting medical papers that are 2017, 2018, 2019 So this is somewhat new but worth reading and talking to your doctor about. I'm sure that CIS Males are just as freaked out about taking ANY estrogen as M2F folks are about having anything other then 0 testosterone. The levels of Testosterone and Estrogen after an orchiectomy or removal of ovaries is abnormally low. The addrenal glands just don't produce enough. Hopefully some post Orchie folks can report real world levels but everything I read says that addrenal glands produce only a small fraction of the hormones you need.
I can personally report that working for a balance has turned my less then zero sex drive into a pretty good one. Its a little shocking after years of having none but its great. Truly a part of life you should not discard without a fight.
Your results may vary but its worth checking out. I think...
I just had an orchiectomy in January. I was pelleted a week ago and will be having my T and E levels checked in three weeks. I wanted to give at least a month after the orchiectomy for my T level to balance out, but also wanted to see what my max E levels looked like.
I suspect that my E isn't as high as I'd like it to be. My low end E level (at the end of a three month cycle) was 90 pg/mL, which is fine. But I'm thinking that my high end may only be 150-175 pg/mL, and that's not enough for full puberty levels.
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Quote from: JanePlain on March 14, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
I'm sure that CIS Males are just as freaked out about taking ANY estrogen as M2F folks are about having anything other then 0 testosterone.
I've been on hormones almost 10 years now and I've had to fight the Zero T crowd the whole way - it was mostly the medical professionals who pushed it, due to the screaming of uneducated trans women. I still don't understand how anyone thinks that zero T is a good idea as it's perfectly clear that cis people have a balance, whether they are male or female. I've also learnt that the HRT protocols pushed by most doctors are based on old and bad science. Dropping the antiandrogen from my protocol was the most beneficial thing I've done - the result is an adequate E level that suppresses gonadal T. Now I just have to deal with the legacy of taking it - a meningioma.
And as much as some in the trans community like to complain about the state of medical care, they themselves are part of the problem. "I've been on hormones for 2 weeks and nothing has happened, I demand something to drop my T level!" and similar are things I've heard.. So many trans people claim to understand what HRT will do to/for them, but really have no idea beyond boobs, hips and nicer skin.. There's a whole lot more to it than that.
Hi PurplePelican,
I hope it is benign.
I agree, I supplement with T and am shooting for 36-40 ng/dl as per my doctor. I feel so much better with some T in the system. I have plenty of E in my system and the T is needed.
I was on the 0 T band wagon for a time and it took two MD's and time to convince me I was wrong.
Quote from: Rachel on March 14, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
Hi PurplePelican,
I hope it is benign.
I agree, I supplement with T and am shooting for 36-40 ng/dl as per my doctor. I feel so much better with some T in the system. I have plenty of E in my system and the T is needed.
I was on the 0 T band wagon for a time and it took two MD's and time to convince me I was wrong.
This is pretty great that you have doctors who are tuned in on this. I think there is a problem with HRT in general terms since that horribly set up test to see if estrogen therapy for women in menopause was safe. Having the women be all ages (like some in menopause for 20+?? years. And in addition being given only horse estrogen in fairly large doses. What did they expect to happen? I liken it to feeding a Model T ford Nitro Methane dragster fuel and being surprised the engine blows up.
I also find it incredible they didn't have any human (identical) hormones in the test to see if maybe giving people equine hormones was such a great idea.
I'm ranting now but it does seem rather obvious that basing TS people's hormone levels on what is normally seen in CIS folks should be the norm. And also of course that having zero libido ought to be seen as a strong indication that something is wrong. The one thing I think it proves is how important transition is if people are willing to do something that regularly results in zero libido.
My hormone physician freaked out when my T dropped to 8. She wanted me to skip doses to try and bring it back to cis-female range of 15-75. I was surprised at her reaction due to the fact that she's only once, at the one month mark, ordered blood tests. I've had them done three times from three different doctors offices. I'll have them checked again in a few weeks.
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Hi StacyR: Yes indeed! 8 (US? levels) is really low. If this were me I would ask about doing a small amount of a topical like androgel. Its not great for getting testosterone to high male levels but it ought to be able to get to comfortable female range. And the change when you have at least something close is in my experience remarkable.
Quote from: JanePlain on March 16, 2019, 03:05:12 AM
Hi StacyR: Yes indeed! 8 (US? levels) is really low. If this were me I would ask about doing a small amount of a topical like androgel. Its not great for getting testosterone to high male levels but it ought to be able to get to comfortable female range. And the change when you have at least something close is in my experience remarkable.
Yes, 8 ng/dL. I've since had an orchiectomy so I wanted to wait for my T to level off before testing again. I haven't seen my max E level. One doctor tested total E, not E2 when it was max level, so I don't know what it tops out at.
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Quote from: StacyRenee on March 16, 2019, 06:57:28 PM
Yes, 8 ng/dL. I've since had an orchiectomy so I wanted to wait for my T to level off before testing again. I haven't seen my max E level. One doctor tested total E, not E2 when it was max level, so I don't know what it tops out at.
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Congrats on your surgery! Hopefully your fully recovered? It certainly makes HRT simple and you don't have to deal with the side effects that seem to be common with T Blockers.
I think it's important to remember that while hormones are a large factor in libido, they're not the only determinant.
Yes my libido changed a lot in going from T to E&P, however I've spent time with just E, extremely low T and certainly still had the desire and ability to enjoy sex. Also for me, thus far bumping T from ultra-low up into mid-range female (I was last checked at T 45 ng/dl & E 267 pg/ml) I can't say it's made any huge bump in libido.
Quote from: JanePlain on March 14, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
From what I've read and discussed with my Endo everybody has receptors for Estrogen and Testosterone. Heavy on one and light on the other the male / female thing. However if you zero out one (or the other) your going to have an abnormal balance. A goofed up male / female thing. Its likely to have several different effects but I think the short version is that having low to no Estrogen or Testosterone will make your libido crash. And this appears to be the same be you CIS Male or Female and of course anyone transgender.
The problem of low libido being connected to low estrogen in men is the focus of some very interesting medical papers that are 2017, 2018, 2019 So this is somewhat new but worth reading and talking to your doctor about. I'm sure that CIS Males are just as freaked out about taking ANY estrogen as M2F folks are about having anything other then 0 testosterone. The levels of Testosterone and Estrogen after an orchiectomy or removal of ovaries is abnormally low. The addrenal glands just don't produce enough. Hopefully some post Orchie folks can report real world levels but everything I read says that addrenal glands produce only a small fraction of the hormones you need.
I can personally report that working for a balance has turned my less then zero sex drive into a pretty good one. Its a little shocking after years of having none but its great. Truly a part of life you should not discard without a fight.
Your results may vary but its worth checking out. I think...
Quote from: JanePlain on March 14, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
From what I've read and discussed with my Endo everybody has receptors for Estrogen and Testosterone. Heavy on one and light on the other the male / female thing. However if you zero out one (or the other) your going to have an abnormal balance. A goofed up male / female thing. Its likely to have several different effects but I think the short version is that having low to no Estrogen or Testosterone will make your libido crash. And this appears to be the same be you CIS Male or Female and of course anyone transgender.
This is actually a very good point regarding the different hormone receptors. If you think about it, it makes total sense that we would have both. after all if we only had 1 or the other, than HRT wouldn't work. The reason HRT does work is because we are blocking the T receptors and activating the E2 receptors. not only that but if CIS females have T than it only makes sense that we too should have some t. one should only seek to eliminate all of something from the body if its presence in the body is not normal. aside from being a sex hormone T has many essential functions in the body. it helps to regulate mood and energy for one thing. and decreasing it can have many bad effects on the body such as depression, and lack of motivation. this is very dangerous! so please avoid trying to eliminate all your T.
When my hormones were all one none of the other my libido crashed. I felt fine that way other then being "bothered" by my SO. Anyway once my endo oked HRT and I was on a balance that turned my libido on I was sorry I hadn't done this long ago.