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In my search for answers, I found that the one I was always given to my wonderings of the beneficial effects of progesterone that cis-women experience and why would it be a detriment to transgender women.  It seems plausible that progesterone should be introduced at some point during hrt transitioning.  But I was told, no, you'll develop breast cancer, no, you will have terrible moods, no, you'll be at a higher risk for cardiovascular diseases.  I thought, then why don't cis-women have these problems?
Well it turns out there are misconceptions and unknowns that drive those thoughts.

The article in full below from January 2019 disputes those thoughts. Dosages in relation to sleep were removed as per site policy.
It's a long read, written in Doctor speak, so I've included the conclusions of the writer at the bottom.

QuoteProgesterone Is Important for Transgender Women's Therapy—Applying Evidence for the Benefits of Progesterone in Ciswomen
Jerilynn C Prior
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 104, Issue 4, 1 April 2019,
Published: 03 January 2019  Article history

Quote
Abstract
Background
Although the 2017 Endocrine Society Guidelines for gender dysphoria stipulated that cross-sex hormone therapy (CHT) achieve gonadal steroid levels equivalent to those of a cisperson of the chosen sex, for transgender women (male-to-female gender dysphoria), current gonadal therapy is usually estradiol. Accumulated evidence indicates that normally ovulatory menstrual cycles are necessary for ciswomen's current fertility, as well as for later-life bone and cardiovascular health and the prevention of breast and endometrial cancers.
Evidence Acquisition
Extensive past clinical experience with transgender women's CHT using estradiol/estrogen combined with progesterone/medroxyprogesterone and pioneering the addition of spironolactone. Comprehensive progesterone physiology research plus a brief review of transgender women's literature to assess current therapy and clinical outcomes, including morbidity and mortality.
Purpose
To emphasize that both ovarian hormones, progesterone as well as estradiol, are theoretically and clinically important for optimal transgender women's CHT.
Evidence Synthesis
It is important to add progesterone to estradiol and an antiandrogen in transgender women's CHT. Progesterone may add the following: (i) more rapid feminization, (ii) decreased endogenous testosterone production, (iii) optimal breast maturation to Tanner stages 4/5, (iv) increased bone formation, (v) improved sleep and vasomotor symptom control, and (vi) cardiovascular health benefits.
Conclusions
Evidence has accrued that normal progesterone (and ovulation), as well as physiological estradiol levels, is necessary during ciswomen's premenopausal menstrual cycles for current fertility and long-term health; transgender women deserve progesterone therapy and similar potential physiological benefits.
Issue Section: Perspective
The recent Endocrine Society clinical practice guidelines for "gender dysphoric/gender incongruous persons" advise clinicians to "maintain sex hormone levels within the normal range for the person's affirmed gender" (1). Every normal, fertile, menstrual cycle in cisgendered women (whose gender identity as women aligns with their female sex assigned at birth) ideally produces progesterone, as well as estradiol (E2). Therefore, rather than being treated with daily E2 and an antiandrogen, as is the current clinical practice, to follow guidelines, we need to prescribe oral micronized progesterone (referred to in this article as progesterone) as an at least cyclic component of treatment of all transgender women (gender dysphoric men to women). With the addition of progesterone to E2 therapy, we will highly likely be able to decrease the prevalence of the two health risks that are now documented to be higher than the general population of women or men in transgender women, as currently treated: cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) (2–5) and low bone density and fracture (3, 6). Thus, the purpose of this Perspectives article is to detail the potential benefits, and unlikely adverse effects, of the addition of progesterone treatment to transgender women's endocrine therapy.

I came to this perspective on treatment of transgender women from my experience as the endocrinology lead in a Gender Dysphoria Clinic in the 1980s and early 1990s. We then pioneered the addition of spironolactone (antiandrogen), to estrogen (E) for transgender women (7). As guidelines now say (1), we were treating with oral E (it was before transdermal E2 therapy became available) plus medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA; as it was also before oral micronized progesterone became available). My perspective is shaped by the prioritization of disease prevention over its treatment, the dictum that clinicians should aim to "do no harm" and that the consideration of physiological-first principles and high-grade evidence leads to improved patient care.

Before a discussion of progesterone's importance for transgender health, it is first necessary to understand the physiological roles and partnership of E2 and the hormone progesterone (P4) in enhancing ciswomen's health. The "job" of E2 is to cause important cell growth that manifests as initial and continued cellular proliferation (8). By contrast, although P4 in cell culture causes proliferation for a few days, it then transforms into its primary, maturational role that includes inhibition of the proliferative effects of E2 (8). Both E2 and P4 act, not just in the pelvic and sex organs, but also in every tissue of ciswomen's bodies during the entire span of their reproductive years. Balanced levels of these ovarian hormones during the 30 to 45 years of menstrual life appear sufficient to decrease the risk for many diseases that may otherwise present during the years of menopause (beginning a year after the final menstruation) and aging when both gonadal steroid levels are normally low.

That cyclic P4 is necessary for ciswomen's fertility is well recognized (9); it is less well appreciated that within regular, normal-length cycles, P4 levels and ovulation are quite variable between cycles within-woman and between women (10). This variability provided the opportunity to "see" the adverse health effects (e.g., on changes in bone density) of subclinical ovulatory disturbances (anovulation or short/insufficient luteal phases within regular cycles) (10, 11). Perhaps because of cumulative and daily life stressors, approximately one-third of regular, normal-length menstrual cycles in ciswomen, ages 20 to 49, are without sufficient P4 (12). Normal ovulation and regular menstruation during the premenopausal years in ciswomen are necessary to prevent bone loss, based on a meta-analysis of prospective observational studies (10) and are associated with a decreased incidence of heart disease within 10 years of menopause onset (13) and with potential breast cancer prevention (14, 15). Progesterone "area under the curve" levels across the menstrual cycle exceed those of integrated menstrual cycle E2 levels in ciswomen's ovulatory cycles because progesterone is produced in nanomoles per liter and E2 in picomoles per liter quantities (15). For metabolic and antiandrogen effects [to suppress LH and gonadal testosterone (T) and inhibit the conversion of T to dihydro-T (DHT)], I suggest that transgender women's progesterone be given daily rather than cyclically, at least until orchiectomy and always at bedtime, because of its sleep-enhancing effects (as subsequently discussed).

Gonadal steroids have sex-specific actions (16); thus, the application of data from progesterone actions in women to the care of those who were biological men before they became transgender women requires evidence. In general, that evidence is available, although sometimes from data using MPA, which usually acts through the P4 receptor (PR). Progesterone suppresses LH and T in men (17), it inhibits conversion of T to DHT in men (18), it has bone formation-stimulating effects and increases areal bone mineral density (BMD) in men (17), and it also improves sleep based on a randomized controlled trial (RCT) in men (19). There is also clinical evidence that breast maturation occurs on progesterone in men (7). As the fundamental endothelial system appears similar in men and women, progesterone likely will improve the cardiovascular system as well (20).

When E or E2 treatments are prescribed for transgender women, I believe it is important to use physiological dose E2, delivered transdermally (either as a gel or patch). Transdermal E2 is effective at enlarging breasts and increasing feminizing subcutaneous fat, increasing sex hormone-binding globulin (although less than oral E/E2) and thus, decreasing free (active) T. However, transdermal E2 carries less increased risk for venous thromboembolism (VTE) (21). Knowing what we now know about risks for VTE in transgender women (5), I believe that E2 should not be given orally. I also believe that higher E2 doses (arbitrarily, more than double physiological) carry increased risks (note that the mean dose in the large Goodman study was 4 mg of oral E2, where a physiological ciswoman dose is 0.5 to 1.0 mg/d) (5). Given the recent evidence that "low doses" of conjugated equine E (0.625 to 1.25 mg/d), with or without cyproterone acetate, lowered androgen, LH, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels into ciswoman ranges (22), it is not clear why higher E/E2 doses are commonly used for transgender women's cross-sex hormone therapy (CHT). Both oral E/E2 and higher doses are associated with an increased risk of VTE and pulmonary embolism in transgender women (2, 5, 23), and the recent paper also showed increased ischemic stroke (5). These are life-threatening, adverse effects that can be devastating for a transgender woman and therefore, when possible, using transdermal E2 and lower doses, should be avoided.

Oral Micronized Progesterone's Benefits for Transgender Women

There are at least six discrete clinical reasons why I believe, based on my clinical experience and the literature, that progesterone is likely to be beneficial for transwomen. [Note that here, I am discussing desired effects that are unique to progesterone and not present in synthetic progestins (24) that also carry a range of adverse effects distinct from progesterone.] I will briefly outline each of these with available supporting evidence, while also referring to CHT-treated transgender women's health risks (3), occurring when they are typically E/E2 plus antiandrogen treated (4).

More rapid feminization

Progesterone competes for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that converts T into DHT (18), the hormone that masculinizes skin and hair follicles. Thus, progesterone decreases the masculinizing effects of DHT on unwanted male-pattern hair. My impression is that the slowness of improvement to feminine in facial and head hair is likely why transgender women may seek higher doses of E/E2. In my clinical experience, feminization occurred more rapidly with E2 and antiandrogens plus progesterone than with E2 and antiandrogens alone. Obviously spironolactone or cyproterone acetate play major roles in feminization by acting as direct androgen receptor blockers (7).

Progesterone suppression of gonadal androgen production

Progesterone feeds back to the hypothalamus slowing the pulsatility of LH and lowering average LH levels (25), thus decreasing gonadal T production. Again, this is an action of P4/progesterone to assist antiandrogen therapy in achieving a feminine shape and secondary sexual characteristics.

Progesterone plus E2 leads to optimal breast maturation and size

Along with elimination of facial and male pattern body hair, one of the important goals of transgender women is to develop mature and physiological breasts (that are classified as Tanner stage 5) (26). However, currently, the majority seeks breast augmentation surgery (3), because E/E2 plus antiandrogen therapy means the areola stays small (≤2.5 cm, ≤1 inch) and masculine, and breasts remain Tanner stage 3 (27). P4 is necessary for the ductal branching within the breast (and hence, for lactation) (28) and eventual maturation leading to the enlargement of the normal ciswoman's areola diameter of ≥3 cm (7). Currently reviewed evidence (29, 30) is inadequate to assess the breast effects of transgender women's CHT, because breast size, not areolar diameter (the primary difference between Tanner 3 and 5 stages) (26), has so far gone unreported except by one research group (7). The areolar size changes in puberty and during development of ovulatory menstrual cycles, as well as in transgender women on CHT, require further study.

Progesterone adds to E2 in increasing BMD

Lower BMD is, after CVD, the second major health risk identified in transgender women on long-term CHT (4). It is unknown yet whether low BMD is related to fractures, as there is only one case report of osteoporotic fractures in a transgender woman (6). She was a nonsmoker but had a strong osteoporosis family history (6), which in ciswomen, is related to more rapid bone loss (31).

Progesterone increases bone formation by activating a specific PR on bone-forming osteoblast cells, causing them to increase the number of mature osteoblasts (32) and to increase the process of creating collagen bone matrix that is subsequently mineralized (33). A recent meta-analysis assessed BMD change in RCT data in postmenopausal ciswomen directly (without regard to hysterectomy status) randomized to E therapy alone (ET) vs E-progestin therapy (EPT) (34). Results showed highly, significantly greater spine BMD gain (+0.68%/year) with EPT than with ET alone (P = 0.00001) (29). Note that RCTs of progestins that do not act through the osteoblast PR were excluded in this meta-analysis; thus, progesterone would have the same or greater effects as MPA in these studies (34). A recent review showed evidence that progesterone can prevent and treat osteoporosis in ciswomen (35).

Use of cigarettes and/or intake of excess amounts of alcohol are known lifestyle risks for osteoporosis. These habits commonly involve addictive brain processes and seem more common in trans- than ciswomen. Progesterone has also shown benefits for addiction (36).

Progesterone improves sleep and hot flushes/flashes (vasomotor symptoms)

Short sleep durations may occur because of emotional distress (often evoked by gender conflicts), extremely stressful work, alcohol excess, inactivity, and other reasons. Short sleep (≤6 hours) is associated with negative metabolic changes and CVD, as well as an increased risk for depression. All of these reasons for, and consequences of, disturbed sleep may be increased in treated transgender women (3, 4).

Progesterone (at bedtime) significantly improves deep sleep, decreases the time to fall asleep, and decreases midsleep wakening based on placebo-controlled randomized trials in both cismen (19) and ciswomen (37). Progesterone must be given at bedtime to avoid daytime drowsiness because of its sleep-promoting effects. The progesterone dose maintains the P4 blood level in the ciswoman's luteal phase range (the desired goal) for the full 24 hours (38).

Progesterone, in a dose at bedtime, also effectively treats menopausal hot flushes/flashes, based on a systematic review (39), and a placebo-controlled RCT in menopausal ciswomen (40). Because the discontinuation of ET (as usually occurs before any transgender surgeries) may sometimes trigger vasomotor symptoms (41) and because progesterone effectively treats them, continuing progesterone therapy during the surgical process (as it is not implicated in VTE) (21) may make that process less physiologically and symptomatically stressful.

Progesterone improves cardiovascular physiology

Heart attack and CVDs are currently increased in treated transgender women (2–4), although a recent large case control study showed increased VTE and ischemic stroke but not acute myocardial infarction (5). Both E2 and progesterone improve endothelial function through the endothelial nitric oxide system. Progesterone, intra-arterially, to achieve luteal-phase levels, significantly increased flow-mediated dilatation and was not different from physiological intra-arterial E2, although E2 effects were not significantly different from vehicle (20). This endothelial action, plus the fact that progesterone does not increase the risks for VTE (21), may assist in preventing the CVD seen in some long-term CHT-treated transgender women (2–5). Finally, a comprehensive review suggested that balanced, normal premenopausal E2 and ovulatory progesterone levels were related to preventing acute myocardial infarction within the first 10 years of the onset of menopause in ciswomen (13).

Thus, there are at least six reasons why progesterone will likely add to the effectiveness of E2 (ideally delivered transdermally for improved safety) (21) and antiandrogens, such as spironolactone, in the treatment of transgender women. However, we live in a culture that emphasizes the benefits of E and often blames P4/progesterone, perhaps because progesterone is often wrongly conflated with progestins (24). Thus, there are clinical concerns that P4/progesterone treatment raises about potential adverse effects that I will briefly address in this next section.

Potential Progesterone-Related Adverse or Unwanted Effects

These concerns about potential progesterone-related adverse effects fall into three main categories: (i) concern about negative effects on cardiovascular health, (ii) about negative emotional/moods, and (iii) risks for breast cancer.

Progesterone and cardiovascular effects

The assumption that progesterone causes adverse cardiovascular effects is primarily because of CVD related to androgenic progestins. However, there are no long-term RCT data on progesterone and cardiovascular effects and no progesterone therapy studies in which the primary outcomes are acute myocardial infarction, stroke, VTE, or heart failure. In part, at least, this is because oral micronized progesterone has only been available for a couple of decades. However, progesterone shows no signal for increased coagulation (21, 24). Progesterone has substantial random-ordered, positive endothelial effects compared with vehicle and E2 (20), but similar results did not reach significance in a 3-month RCT in menopausal ciswomen for which the endothelial function data were underpowered (42). In that same 3-month RCT, progesterone caused no changes in weight, waist circumference, blood pressure, inflammation, coagulation, or lipids (except a substantial but clinically unimportant lowering of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol) (42).

Progesterone and mood effects

In a premenstrual symptom crossover RCT in cycling ciswomen, progesterone was given at bedtime premenstrually for 10 days/cycle; it showed significantly improved anxiety and had no negative mood effects (43). Another placebo-controlled progesterone clinical trial also showed no negative mood effects (44). Likewise, in an observational study in 62 healthy ciswomen, 20 to 40 years old, serum P4 levels and ovulatory status were not related (positively or negatively) to daily diary records of frustration, depression, and anxiety (45). Therefore, although it is a common belief that progesterone causes negative mood changes, controlled trial and prospective observational evidence for this assumption is lacking.

Progesterone and breast cancer risk

E (E or E2) with MPA increased the risks for breast cell proliferation and breast cancer, but there is increasing evidence that the opposite may occur with progesterone (15, 46). The large French E3N Prospective Cohort Study of menopausal therapy in ciswomen by its component characteristics showed no increased risk for breast cancer in women on E/E2 with progesterone, although the same study showed a significantly elevated risk with ET or EPT (14). The combined evidence suggested that progesterone would protect against the rare risk of breast cancer in transgender women treated with E.

QuoteOral micronized progesterone, a fundamental ovarian steroid, molecularly identical to the natural hormone, should be added to E2 for transgender women based on physiology and emerging evidence of the importance of progesterone with E2 for ciswomen's bone and likely cardiovascular health. Progesterone will probably prevent at least some of the negative cardiovascular system and bone health effects reported in transgender women on current long-term, E/E2-only, or E/E2 antiandrogen CHT. Progesterone will also aid antiandrogen effects through different pathways than spironolactone or cyproterone acetate and may promote feminine physiological breast maturation, while also aiding disturbed sleep and perhaps decreasing anxiety. It may also facilitate transgender women's acceptance of physiological (rather than high) E2 doses ideally delivered transdermally. Evidence is mounting that ciswomen's lifelong health is enhanced by sufficient P4 (normally ovulatory) within regular estradiol-sufficient monthly menstrual cycles. I believe it is time that we now follow current guidelines and provide transgender women with these P4 or progesterone benefits in their CHT.

I shared this with my endo (Kaiser) and evidently convinced him to prescribe progesterone to me as a trial basis.  I'm looking forward to getting it filled.

Thank you for sharing this! I did not read through it (yet), but understand from my dr that there is very little scientific evidence either way on this, so this is great that there is some research happening.

My doctors position is that it could increase my risk of clotting and it does bring with it some potential masculinizing effects like hair loss but otherwise she viewed it as placebo at worst and so prescribed it on request. I do see more swelling and moodiness and coronal hair shedding when I'm on it and so cycle it 2 on/ 2 off.

@jill610

Quote from: jill610 on March 09, 2019, 06:49:41 PM
Thank you for sharing this! I did not read through it (yet), but understand from my dr that there is very little scientific evidence either way on this, so this is great that there is some research happening.

My doctors position is that it could increase my risk of clotting and it does bring with it some potential masculinizing effects like hair loss but otherwise she viewed it as placebo at worst and so prescribed it on request. I do see more swelling and moodiness and coronal hair shedding when I'm on it and so cycle it 2 on/ 2 off.

Jill, read through the article and you may gain the information that you need to have a discussion about the use of progesterone.  Siting this article can be of assistance in informing your doctor of new thoughts in the matter.  Such as daily use rather than cyclical.

Hugs, Jess

Thank you so much for putting this out there Jessica! This is a burning question for me. I would love to experience full CIS type breast development - I have heard P is good for that.

Also I would love to hear your personal account of mood, skin, hair, breasts ect.

Time to go and read up !

With best pmt wishes, Kirsten.

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Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 07:04:00 PM
@jill610

Jill, read through the article and you may gain the information that you need to have a discussion about the use of progesterone.  Siting this article can be of assistance in informing your doctor of new thoughts in the matter.  Such as daily use rather than cyclical.

Hugs, Jess

Not sure what discussion I would be having? I'm already taking it...

Quote from: jill610 on March 09, 2019, 07:45:26 PM
Not sure what discussion I would be having? I'm already taking it...

Please tell me jill610 would you do a regimen without P or do you find significant benefits?

Intrigued, Kirsten.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 09, 2019, 07:49:18 PM
Please tell me jill610 would you do a regimen without P or do you find significant benefits?

Intrigued, Kirsten.

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I cycle it.

When I was on it all the time I was a psycho bitch. But without it I feel withdrawal so I do 2w on, 2w off, micronuzed. Roughly mimics cis cycle.

[/quote]

Quote from: jill610 on March 09, 2019, 07:45:26 PM
Not sure what discussion I would be having? I'm already taking it...

I'm sorry Jill, that was ramblings in my head.  I mentioned it because the way your doctor has you taking it in cycles is not the way the articles writer recommends.  Of course you should always follow your doctor's advice, but maybe it's outdated.
But then again ymmv!

Quote from: jill610 on March 09, 2019, 07:51:13 PM
I cycle it.

When I was on it all the time I was a psycho bitch. But without it I feel withdrawal so I do 2w on, 2w off, micronuzed. Roughly mimics cis cycle.

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 07:52:14 PM
I'm sorry Jill, that was ramblings in my head.  I mentioned it because the way your doctor has you taking it in cycles is not the way the articles writer recommends.  Of course you should always follow your doctor's advice, but maybe it's outdated.

My dr basically doesn't care.

If you have ever been in progesterone 100% of the time, you'd know why I cycle it. It makes you super moody and, as my friends put it, psycho-Jill. That's my experience at least, but cycling it seems to help minimize the emotional effects while still getting the physical effects... my bloodwork mirrors that of a ciswoman at the same point in her cycle though if you read my other threads, maintaining safe estrogen levels has been a challenge. Not sure if P is to blame but it has come up as a variable.

It seems as if this paper is the first detailed information one can find about the usage of progesterone.  It also seems that many endocrinologists are either not aware of the benefits of progesterone for trans women, or they deny it outright.

I did some googling around and found that many cis women use micronized progesterone in a cream form to increase their breast volume.  The reports on outcomes are mixed, which could be because of the low concentration, and the sensitivity of different persons to progesterone. 

I will talk with my endocrinologist about this when I see him in 4 weeks, and see what he says!

I believe that answers my question about getting mine refilled. Been out since Monday.  Didn't refill ahead of time because of blood tests on Tuesday and wanted to see those results first. Did not seem to have an effect, levels were essentially the same as 3 months prior. 


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Quote from: Dietlind on March 09, 2019, 08:06:56 PM
It seems as if this paper is the first detailed information one can find about the usage of progesterone.  It also seems that many endocrinologists are either not aware of the benefits of progesterone for trans women, or they deny it outright.

I did some googling around and found that many cis women use micronized progesterone in a cream form to increase their breast volume.  The reports on outcomes are mixed, which could be because of the low concentration, and the sensitivity of different persons to progesterone. 

I will talk with my endocrinologist about this when I see him in 4 weeks, and see what he says!

I wonder at times if the Progesterone cream helps.

Chrissy

Quote from: jill610 on March 09, 2019, 07:57:35 PM
My dr basically doesn't care.

If you have ever been in progesterone 100% of the time, you'd know why I cycle it. It makes you super moody and, as my friends put it, psycho-Jill. That's my experience at least, but cycling it seems to help minimize the emotional effects while still getting the physical effects... my bloodwork mirrors that of a ciswoman at the same point in her cycle though if you read my other threads, maintaining safe estrogen levels has been a challenge. Not sure if P is to blame but it has come up as a variable.

I had the moodiness big time (mostly bad) when I tried the medroxyprogesterone.  Didn't seem to have an issue with the micronized with daily use the last 3 months.

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Quote from: TonyaW on March 09, 2019, 08:19:06 PM
I believe that answers my question about getting mine refilled. Been out since Monday.  Didn't refill ahead of time because of blood tests on Tuesday and wanted to see those results first. Did not seem to have an effect, levels were essentially the same as 3 months prior. 


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My endo partly was in line with progesterone use with me because my numbers were in female range.  I haven't had the script fill yet, but I'm curious how my numbers may or may not change once I start on Monday.  He prescribed daily nighttime usage.
What I'm anticipating is better breast growth.  My breasts are a tanner 3 and that is about the time that cis-girls start producing Progesterone where it makes a difference.

Quote from: TonyaW on March 09, 2019, 08:26:02 PM
I had the moodiness big time (mostly bad) when I tried the medroxyprogesterone.  Didn't seem to have an issue with the micronized with daily use the last 3 months.

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My big sisters says....

QuoteMetroxyprogesterone is a synthetic progestin and prometrium is a bio-idententical micronized progesterone

The side effects of the synthetic version are not observed with the bio-identical

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 08:34:05 PM
My endo partly was in line with progesterone use with me because my numbers were in female range.  I haven't had the script fill yet, but I'm curious how my numbers may or may not change once I start on Monday.  He prescribed daily nighttime usage.
What I'm anticipating is better breast growth.  My breasts are a tanner 3 and that is about the time that cis-girls start producing Progesterone where it makes a difference.

My estrogen was down and my testosterone up but still in female range on the the tests from December. I'd been off the medroxyprogesterone completely for 5 months before that.  My doctor wanted to retest in 3 months rather than 6 because of the difference 6 months prior. The latest came out the same and now she says they're fine do that has me a little confused. Didn't really get answer when I asked that. Needed to get an ok on refill for the estradiol so I didn't push on it. I have an appointment for June so will ask then.

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Quote from: TonyaW on March 09, 2019, 08:56:22 PM
My estrogen was down and my testosterone up but still in female range on the the tests from December. I'd been off the medroxyprogesterone completely for 5 months before that.  My doctor wanted to retest in 3 months rather than 6 because of the difference 6 months prior. The latest came out the same and now she says they're fine do that has me a little confused. Didn't really get answer when I asked that. Needed to get an ok on refill for the estradiol so I didn't push on it. I have an appointment for June so will ask then.

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As some friends here and about know, I can be pushy.  I definitely went out on the limb with my endo.  I was praying he wouldn't label me non-compliant and refuse my E.  I played to his ego and avoided that.

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 09:00:29 PM
As some friends here and about know, I can be pushy.  I definitely went out on the limb with my endo.  I was praying he wouldn't label me non-compliant and refuse my E.  I played to his ego and avoided that.

I have this fear, too.  If I push to hard, I might get nothing (they know the power they have over us).  I was already able to push him last week to double my estrogen.  I now have to see how my values are, if I an push a little more in 4 weeks!

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 09:00:29 PM
As some friends here and about know, I can be pushy.  I definitely went out on the limb with my endo.  I was praying he wouldn't label me non-compliant and refuse my E.  I played to his ego and avoided that.

I've got only 3 more days left so couldn't afford to risk it.  My refill is waiting at the pharmacy.  I don't think she'd have denied my refill but 3 months not too long to wait.
I also want to research at least lowering the spiro before I see her.  I've lost some weight and I think my blood pressure is too low now.

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Quote from: TonyaW on March 09, 2019, 09:27:37 PM
I've got only 3 more days left so couldn't afford to risk it.  My refill is waiting at the pharmacy.  I don't think she'd have denied my refill but 3 months not too long to wait.
I also want to research at least lowering the spiro before I see her.  I've lost some weight and I think my blood pressure is too low now.

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I just requested a reduction in Spiro since my numbers are good.  Testing again in 10 weeks.

  I have been taking bio-identical micronized progesterone daily for about a year now. I believe my breasts have become a little fuller by taking it. But what is a better reason for me to take it is those listed in the article. These are summarized in the conclusion.

QuoteConclusion

Oral micronized progesterone, a fundamental ovarian steroid, molecularly identical to the natural hormone, should be added to E2 for transgender women based on physiology and emerging evidence of the importance of progesterone with E2 for ciswomen's bone and likely cardiovascular health. Progesterone will probably prevent at least some of the negative cardiovascular system and bone health effects reported in transgender women on current long-term, E/E2-only, or E/E2 antiandrogen CHT. Progesterone will also aid antiandrogen effects through different pathways than spironolactone or cyproterone acetate and may promote feminine physiological breast maturation, while also aiding disturbed sleep and perhaps decreasing anxiety. It may also facilitate transgender women's acceptance of physiological (rather than high) E2 doses ideally delivered transdermally. Evidence is mounting that ciswomen's lifelong health is enhanced by sufficient P4 (normally ovulatory) within regular estradiol-sufficient monthly menstrual cycles. I believe it is time that we now follow current guidelines and provide transgender women with these P4 or progesterone benefits in their CHT.

My question is, who of you took/takes progesterone, and has no testicles anymore?  What effects will progesterone have for people like I?
It would be great if I could get some anecdotal information on this, to be able to talk with my Endo about it.

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 08:45:38 PM
My big sisters says....

The side effects of the synthetic version are not observed with the bio-identical

Didn't go that route to start due to cost and usually tolerating drugs pretty well.  Cost of micronized is more reasonable now so asked about trying it at my December appointment.

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Doctors, media and many other entities tend to sometimes confuse progesterone with other progestogens, namely medroxyprogesterone acetate.

PROGESTERONE is the hormone that is naturally produced in the human body, in greater quantities in women during the second part of their menstrual cycle and in very high quantities during pregnancy. It is available as oral Prometrium or Utrogestan, in suppositories as Cyclogest and as IM injection and it can also be compounded. During pregnancy, it is sometimes prescribed to women to prevent miscarriage or preterm delivery. It is also prescribed to women going through in-vitro fertility. The vast majority of studies have shown it DOES NOT increase breast cancer risk. Pregnancy, a time when progesterone levels are VERY high, has also been associated with a decreased risk of breast cancer.

MEDROXYPROGESTERONE ACETATE, on the other hand, was associated in a very large randomized trial from 2003 (Women's Health Initiative), with an increase in breast cancer incidence relative to women who weren't taking it. The bad press comes from this progestogen and also other progestogens that have been linked in other numerous studies to an increased risk of breast cancer and cardiovascular morbidity. This progestogen is NEVER prescribed to pregnant women as it can be mildly androgenic and can be harmful for the female fetus. It is not produced in the human body. It has also been associated with an increased risk of clots, been reported to adversely affect the cardiovascular system and sometimes dysregulate mood.

The issue with medroxyprogesterone acetate has mostly to do with its adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, breast tissue and coagulation whereas progesterone appears to have none of those adverse effects. MPA reduces estrogen's beneficial effects on lipids and vasodilating effects in arteries. Medroxyprogesterone is also slightly androgenic (activates androgen receptors) in contrast to progesterone which does not.

Progesterone production does not usually start in ciswomen until about Tanner 4 stage breast development. The passage to Tanner 5 stage breast development, significant (in terms of size/shape) according to Tanner scale/diagram, may be mediated by progesterone.

@KayXo

Quote from: KayXo on March 10, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
Doctors, media and many other entities tend to sometimes confuse progesterone with other progestogens, namely medroxyprogesterone acetate.

PROGESTERONE is the hormone that is naturally produced in the human body, in greater quantities in women during the second part of their menstrual cycle and in very high quantities during pregnancy. It is available as oral Prometrium or Utrogestan, in suppositories as Cyclogest and as IM injection and it can also be compounded. During pregnancy, it is sometimes prescribed to women to prevent miscarriage or preterm delivery. It is also prescribed to women going through in-vitro fertility. The vast majority of studies have shown it DOES NOT increase breast cancer risk. Pregnancy, a time when progesterone levels are VERY high, has also been associated with a decreased risk of breast cancer.

MEDROXYPROGESTERONE ACETATE, on the other hand, was associated in a very large randomized trial from 2003 (Women's Health Initiative), with an increase in breast cancer incidence relative to women who weren't taking it. The bad press comes from this progestogen and also other progestogens that have been linked in other numerous studies to an increased risk of breast cancer and cardiovascular morbidity. This progestogen is NEVER prescribed to pregnant women as it can be mildly androgenic and can be harmful for the female fetus. It is not produced in the human body. It has also been associated with an increased risk of clots, been reported to adversely affect the cardiovascular system and sometimes dysregulate mood.

The issue with medroxyprogesterone acetate has mostly to do with its adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, breast tissue and coagulation whereas progesterone appears to have none of those adverse effects. MPA reduces estrogen's beneficial effects on lipids and vasodilating effects in arteries. Medroxyprogesterone is also slightly androgenic (activates androgen receptors) in contrast to progesterone which does not.

Progesterone production does not usually start in ciswomen until about Tanner 4 stage breast development. The passage to Tanner 5 stage breast development, significant (in terms of size/shape) according to Tanner scale/diagram, may be mediated by progesterone.

This is certainly one of the stumbling blocks for many to get.  Thank you for putting this in such a good fashion, so others will understand.  Hopefully endocrinologists will read the article and "get it".

Thanks Jessica for starting this thread on this very interesting article.
Paige :)

Quote from: Jessica on March 10, 2019, 10:49:31 AM
@KayXo

This is certainly one of the stumbling blocks for many to get.  Thank you for putting this in such a good fashion, so others will understand.  Hopefully endocrinologists will read the article and "get it".

I am pretty sure, mine will not!  He is to full of himself to accept anything others did!  I will change him out, as soon as I find another one who seems to be competent

My experience of taking Micronized Progesterone has been nothing but positive.  Mostly because I no longer need to take a AA and fat redistribution increased amazingly!  I love my body now.  I can't be more happier other than I have to get most of my clothes tailored to hug my hourglass shape.  Size 4 to 8 fits ok, but not skinny enough around the waist.  I'm very happy taking Progesterone.  I totally agree with this topic!

Thank you Jessica for this extremely informative and recent (January2019) article.

Purely by coincidence I decided in February to raise the possibility of starting Progesterone with my Endo mainly for the reason of having no areolae increase but also because I have previously had poor bone density (osteoporosis).

My Endo has been considering taking my medical history and recent Blood tests into account, and I shall be starting on Progesterone (Utrogestan) in the next few days.

I hope this latest detailed and thorough analysis reaches many other specialists in transgender care in US, in UK, indeed worldwide.

Hugs to all

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 12, 2019, 08:04:05 AM
Thank you Jessica for this extremely informative and recent (January2019) article.

Purely by coincidence I decided in February to raise the possibility of starting Progesterone with my Endo mainly for the reason of having no areolae increase but also because I have previously had poor bone density (osteoporosis).

My Endo has been considering taking my medical history and recent Blood tests into account, and I shall be starting on Progesterone (Utrogestan) in the next few days.

I hope this latest detailed and thorough analysis reaches many other specialists in transgender care in US, in UK, indeed worldwide.

Hugs to all

Pamela  xx

Congratulations Pamela, maybe start a thread like I did in Jess's progesterone experiences (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,245192.0.html) to document your experiences or add them here on this thread. 
I'm certain it will be helpful.

Hugs and smiles, Jessica

Has anyone experienced "night sweats" while taking progesterone?  I woke in the middle of the night drenched after taking my first dose last night.

Hi Everyone;
I am a complete convert to Micronised Progesterone. I take Promethium  (one capsule) at bedtime. I have been on Progynova for  nearly 6 years now and after Promethium became available in Australia about a year ago, I persuaded my doctor to also prescribe it to me as part of my HRT. I should say that I have never been on Blockers (this time around in my "2nd" transition).  Part of the reason was when I started  my {2nd) transition 6 years ago my T was very low and my doctor indicated that it was the E ie Progynova that would work best.

Over the last year my Doctor initially put me on Promethium taken daily (contunously). I was on that regime for about 3 months, but I found that it really was too much for me, making me very moody and irritable (sometimes described as a bit crazy). Since I have gone onto a  2 weeks off and 2 weeks on cycle I have become so much better.

Effectively I am on an Estrogen only regime (take twice a day ) at 10am and 10pm for Days 1-14, then on Day15 I take initially 2 capsules of Promethium at 10pm as a combined regime until about Day 20-22, the slipping back to 1 capsule at night time and Proynova once a day until day 30. Around  the mid month period I do get moody and a girlfriend reckons I go into a pseudo PMS stage, but after 2 days on the combined regime I am literally on top of the world. I described it elsewhere saying that for the first half of the month, I feel I just want to lounge about (jeans grungy look), but once on the combined regime after my Pseudo PMS stage, I really feel ultra feminine. I love going out with girlfriends, shopping,  really focusing on looking great on my make-up (the first  part of the month I probably only bother with Lipstick and eyeliner and a little mascara, spending at most 5 minutes on my make up routine. The second half I can easily spend 60 minutes getting ready to go out, wearing some great clothing combinations and feeling on top of the world, with my makeup (Bare Minerals foundation, highlighter, glow, blusher, eye shadow, eyebrows, eyeliner,  mascara, lip pencil, lipstick, perfume etc etc).

After a year on the combined regime, I have had increased areola growth (almost Tanner stage 5,) my breasts have achieved larger upper pole development (I am now a Small C Cup and I have much more pronounced buttocks. (adding about 4" to them)  Lots of girlfriends have commented on my new curves.

So I am a big favourite of the combined regime.

I did though get some hot flashes intially when I started on the Progesterone and also when I went onto a Cycle, which by the way mimics a Cis gender female  hormone levels with Progesterone falling offer rapidly and Estrogen generally a slower curve from Days 22.

The only other thing was that when I started on it I did experience some lactation in the breasts. My doctor did pre-warn about it and has been checking my Prolactin levels. With the plan to reduce the Progesterone if I generate too much fluid. So far I haven't  had the increase in fluid leakage, with Progesterone levels adequate to Cis gender female hormonal levels.

JudithLynn

Quote from: judithlynn on March 12, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
Hi Everyone;
I am a complete convert to Micronised Progesterone. I take Promethium  (one capsule) at bedtime. I have been on Progynova for  nearly 6 years now and after Promethium became available in Australia about a year ago, I persuaded my doctor to also prescribe it to me as part of my HRT. I should say that I have never been on Blockers (this tome around in my "2nd" transition).  Part of the reason was when I started  my {2nd) transition 6 years ago my T was very low and my doctor indicated that it was the E ie Progynova that would work best.

Over the last year my Doctor initially put me on Promethium taken daily (contunously). I was on that regime for about 3 months, but I found that it really was too much for me, making me very moody and irritable (sometimes described as a bit crazy). Since I have gone onto a  2 weeks off and 2 weeks on cycle I have become so much better.

Effectively I am on an Estrogen only regime (take twice a day ) at 10am and 10pm for Days 1-14, then on Day15 I take initially 2 capsules of Promethium at 10pm as a combined regime until about Day 20-22, the slipping back to 1 capsule at night time and Proynova once a day until day 30. Around  the mid month period I do get moody and a girlfriend reckons I go into a pseudo PMS stage, but after 2 days on the combined regime I am literally on top of the world. I described it elsewhere saying that for the first half of the month, I feel I just want to lounge about (jeans grungy look), but once on the combined regime after my Pseudo PMS stage, I really feel ultra feminine. I love going out with girlfriends, shopping,  really focusing on looking great on my make-up (the first  part of the month I probably only bother with Lipstick and eyeliner and a little mascara, spending at most 5 minutes on my make up routine. The second half I can easily spend 60 minutes getting ready to go out, wearing some great clothing combinations and feeling on top of the world, with my makeup (Bare Minerals foundation, highlighter, glow, blusher, eyes, eyebrows, eyeliner,  mascara, lip pencil, lipstick, perfume etc etc).

After a year on the combined regime, I have had increased areola growth (almost Tanner stage 5, my breast have achieved larger upper pole development (I am now a Small C Cup and I have much more pronounced buttocks.  Lots of girlfriends have commented on my new curves.

So I am a big favourite of the combined regime.

I did though get some hot flashes intially when I started on the Progesterone and also when I went onto a Cycle, which by the way mimics a Cis gender female  hormone levels with Progesterone falling offer rapidly and Estrogen generally a slower curve from Days 22.

The only other thing was that when I started on it I did experience some lactation in the breasts. My doctor did pre-warn about it and has been checking my Prolactin levels. With the plan to reduce the Progesterone if I generate too much fluid. So far I haven't  had the increase in fluid leakage, with Progesterone levels adequate to Cis gender female hormonal levels.

JudithLynn

Just had a good read Judithlynn. Thanks so much for putting this out there. I will read this again after work. Sounds like progesterone really does get results.

I will definately speak to my prescribing doctor about P.

Kindest regards, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Hi Kirsten;
The important thing to ask for is Micronised Progesterone - Promethium by Besins (that's the name of the manufacturer). The other option if you are Post Op is utrogestan. This is a pessary that you insert in your vagina.
Best
JudithLynn

Promethium is an element. Prometrium is the progesterone capsule by Besins.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on March 13, 2019, 10:03:37 PM
Promethium is an element. Prometrium is the progesterone capsule by Besins.

Exactly so

Just to confirm that Utrogestan (which is bio-identical) can also be taken orally.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: judithlynn on March 13, 2019, 09:24:17 PM
Hi Kirsten;
The important thing to ask for is Micronised Progesterone - Promethium by Besins (that's the name of the manufacturer). The other option if you are Post Op is utrogestan. This is a pessary that you insert in your vagina.
Best
JudithLynn

Judithlynn
Thank you so much again. Yes I really wish I did have a vagina- I am doing my best to cultivate that eventuality. I know you have mentioned the correct Besins product in previous posts. I cant help but think the cycling regimen is the most efficacious.

If It results in C cups instead of B and a bum that can rock a dress I dont know if I could handle that much euphoria all at once!

Yours truly, Kirsten.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 14, 2019, 05:26:12 AM
Just to confirm that Utrogestan (which is bio-identical) can also be taken orally.

Hugs

Pamela

Thank you Pamela,
It is important to ascertain what bio-identical products are available.

Please tell me are you seriously considering P as well ?

With curvaceous wishes, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 12, 2019, 08:04:05 AM
Thank you Jessica for this extremely informative and recent (January2019) article.

Purely by coincidence I decided in February to raise the possibility of starting Progesterone with my Endo mainly for the reason of having no areolae increase but also because I have previously had poor bone density (osteoporosis).

My Endo has been considering taking my medical history and recent Blood tests into account, and I shall be starting on Progesterone (Utrogestan) in the next few days.

I hope this latest detailed and thorough analysis reaches many other specialists in transgender care in US, in UK, indeed worldwide.

Hugs to all

Pamela  xx

Yes Kirsten I am indeed starting within days and will confirm so on my HRT thread next week.

Thank you for your kind compliment and curvaceous wishes to you too!

Hugs

Pamela  xx

COPIED FROM COMPARISON THREAD:

Kirsteneklund7 March 14th at 6.37


I will trial micronised P- the feminising effects are too hard to ignore!

Kirsten xx.


Good Luck Kirsten with Micronised Progesterone! We are starting together and can compare notes over the months to come.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 14, 2019, 09:10:29 AM
COPIED FROM COMPARISON THREAD:

Kirsteneklund7 March 14th at 6.37


I will trial micronised P- the feminising effects are too hard to ignore!

Kirsten xx.


Good Luck Kirsten with Micronised Progesterone! We are starting together and can compare notes over the months to come.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

I look forward to it Sis !

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I had the same issue with Kaiser. I finally made an appointment with the Dr that heads the transition clinic in Oakland, and she approved it.
I'm very happy with the results better breast growth and fat distribution.
An added benefit was an improvement with my skin. On E alone my skin was very  fragile and the slightest bump into something would cause brusing and abrasions.
I have been cycling my dosage based on the phase of the moon, increasing when it's waxing till l hit a maximum at when it's full. Then decreasing as it's waining.   

Steph

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I honestly never understood why endocrinologists in general ignore progesterone when it comes to transfem HRT. You read in medical journals and endocrinology books on how progesterone is suuuuch a big deal in female puberty, but when it comes to trans people, endocrinologists are quiet as hell or have a lot of misconceptions of the very hormones they're supposed to know about........

Here in Sweden apparently the endocrinologists that treat transgender people stopped prescribing it a few years back because "lack of evidence of benefit". I mean if trans people want to go through a second puberty I really have a hard time seeing why they are so reluctant to supply the chemicals involved in cis puberty. It's pretty much what we have to go on, trans research is pretty damn scarce otherwise.

I'm gonna show this and Dr. Powells' presentation to my endo when I finally get a referral and hopefully she'll listen to me. :-\ Thanks for the info!

I would like to try progesterone when I reach 2 years of estrogen because I feel that after 2 years of when a 10-year-old girl enters puberty (at 12) comes the menstrual period and the release of progesterone, so, I would ask my endocrinologist when I turned 2 years of estrogen if it could be beneficial for me in the development of my nipple.

I started HRT in Dec/17 and I am pretty sure it was September/18 when I started Progesterone, my Endo has me on it daily and does not want me to cycle it. Unfortunately for me I don't seem to get the benefit of sleep that people talk about, but I have never been able to sleep more than 4 hrs a night since childhood. Mentally I am quite happy to be taking it!

Sometimes I really dislike people with advanced academic degrees  I wrote an email to my endo, who did not liten to me at all, about the new knowledge about progesterone.  This time, I signed the letter with my name and academic degree.  I did not set my hope to high for receiving an answer, but I was surprised, I had an answer today, two days later!

The email started
Dear Dr. Dietlind XXXXXX, and he asked whether I could give him links to the information to enable him to get up to the newest stuff!  And if I would please setup an appointment with him that we can talk about it!

I hate it, if one has to throw titles around to get the service wich any of his patients should be getting!  Without mentioning my title, I would not have hard anything back on my email, I am pretty sure about that, because I tried it before!  It seems that some medical doctors have this kind of chip on their shoulders.  I met an internists at friends yesterday, they had told him that I am a medical person, too.  He felt that I should require people to address me with Dr..  We never had that in the labs, the name plates at the office doors did not even mention anything about  Dr.

What difference does it make if I am addressed with Dr. when I just want to drink a cup of coffee?

Anyway, would you folks be so nice and post some links of the articles/papers you quoted here?

Thanks
Linde

A lot of doctors just use the standards to cover their but.  If they follow the WPATH guidance and something goes wrong they can fall back on that.  Also how can what they "know" be wrong.

I'm lucky my doctor has been so open minded.  The other doctor Dr. Powers that is also getting ready to publish his results has almost a 100% success rate with T suppression only using EV and micronized Progesterone.

I hope WPATH changes soon.  I wish everyone the best trying to get your proper medical care.

@Dietlind

Quote from: Dietlind on March 19, 2019, 08:54:40 PM
Sometimes I really dislike people with advanced academic degrees  I wrote an email to my endo, who did not liten to me at all, about the new knowledge about progesterone.  This time, I signed the letter with my name and academic degree.  I did not set my hope to high for receiving an answer, but I was surprised, I had an answer today, two days later!

The email started
Dear Dr. Dietlind XXXXXX, and he asked whether I could give him links to the information to enable him to get up to the newest stuff!  And if I would please setup an appointment with him that we can talk about it!

I hate it, if one has to throw titles around to get the service wich any of his patients should be getting!  Without mentioning my title, I would not have hard anything back on my email, I am pretty sure about that, because I tried it before!  It seems that some medical doctors have this kind of chip on their shoulders.  I met an internists at friends yesterday, they had told him that I am a medical person, too.  He felt that I should require people to address me with Dr..  We never had that in the labs, the name plates at the office doors did not even mention anything about  Dr.

What difference does it make if I am addressed with Dr. when I just want to drink a cup of coffee?

Anyway, would you folks be so nice and post some links of the articles/papers you quoted here?

Thanks
Linde

Hi Linde, the link to the article was purposefully omitted as dosages are provided in it.
If an endocrinologist were to just review the journal that they all should read, they would be better informed of changes in their profession.  Some seem to just ignore new science and trust only their past knowledge.  I would consider finding one that has the will to learn, rather than rely on their diploma that they received in the stone age.

I urge anyone who wants more information on progesterone, T blockers, estradiol, estrone, etc., and how they all work for trans folks to look up "Dr Will Powers" on Facebook, download his latest PowerPoint presentation on Care of the Transgender Patient, Version 5, and study it end to end. Seriously, this guy is extremely dedicated to us, reads the published studies, does his own research, and is loved by all his over-1200 trans patients. He has people flying to see him from as far away as California. I almost wish I lived in Michigan again so he could be my primary doctor.

I've already given my PCP version 4.0 of his presentation, and I intend to distill his latest findings on progesterone, along with the knowledge I've gained from this thread, and present it at my next appointment as proof that I should be on progesterone.

In a nutshell, he now refuses to use T-blockers, especially spiro, any more, since he's found that proper dosages of estradiol, administered appropriately for each individual, along with bioidentical micronized progesterone taken as a suppository, suppress testosterone adequately. He also recommends progesterone in cream form applied to the breasts and even the face. I won't give any more details here, but I strongly suggest you take a look.


Stephanie

Quote from: Steph2.0 on March 20, 2019, 03:10:48 PM
I urge anyone who wants more information on progesterone, T blockers, estradiol, estrone, etc., and how they all work for trans folks to look up "Dr Will Powers" on Facebook, download his latest PowerPoint presentation on Care of the Transgender Patient, Version 5, and study it end to end. Seriously, this guy is extremely dedicated to us, reads the published studies, does his own research, and is loved by all his over-1200 trans patients. He has people flying to see him from as far away as California. I almost wish I lived in Michigan again so he could be my primary doctor.

I've already given my PCP version 4.0 of his presentation, and I intend to distill his latest findings on progesterone, along with the knowledge I've gained from this thread, and present it at my next appointment as proof that I should be on progesterone.

In a nutshell, he now refuses to use T-blockers, especially spiro, any more, since he's found that proper dosages of estradiol, administered appropriately for each individual, along with bioidentical micronized progesterone taken as a suppository, suppress testosterone adequately. He also recommends progesterone in cream form applied to the breasts and even the face. I won't give any more details here, but I strongly suggest you take a look.


Stephanie

This mirrors my thoughts on t-blockers.  This hopefully will be something that can be studied.
But it will only happen if we ask of our endocrinologist or doctor to research new findings.

Quote from: Jessica on March 20, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
This mirrors my thoughts on t-blockers.  This hopefully will be something that can be studied.
But it will only happen if we ask of our endocrinologist or doctor to research new findings.

Yup. My doctor is pretty good at letting me drive if he's convinced I know what I'm talking about. I'll tell him what I've discovered and give him the data to back it up, and see where it goes from there.

AA's are very bad for the human body over a long period of time.  Dr. Powers and even more so Beverly Cosgrove are supper stars.

Quote from: Jessica on March 20, 2019, 10:57:51 AM
@Dietlind

Hi Linde, the link to the article was purposefully omitted as dosages are provided in it.
If an endocrinologist were to just review the journal that they all should read, they would be better informed of changes in their profession.  Some seem to just ignore new science and trust only their past knowledge.  I would consider finding one that has the will to learn, rather than rely on their diploma that they received in the stone age.

Thank Jessica
I happen to live in the part of the US that is called "Waiting Room to Heaven", and endocrinologists around  here are mostly concerned with geriatric problems.  Te endo I see is supposed to be the best there is for transgender people in this area, and he was recommended by my therapist and had a big newspaper write up (and I pay out off pocket for him, because he does not accept most insurances).  I did go to two other endos before him, and both said they really don't know anything about trans!
As you can see, i am between a rock and a hard place, and at least now that I pulled my PhD on him, he is willing to listen to me, and wants to see the information!
This P*** me off a lot, because what have persons to go through, who cannot pull a fancy title from their pockets?  This stupid PhD does not make me into a better person, or a person who deserves better care!  Oh well, I was always a bleeding heart tree huger and will remain one for ever, I guess.

Quote from: Jessica on March 20, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
This mirrors my thoughts on t-blockers.  This hopefully will be something that can be studied.
But it will only happen if we ask of our endocrinologist or doctor to research new findings.

I can only say that I feel so much better now that I have not to take this spiro stuff anymore!  I still don't know which other positive effects (accept no tucking anymore) my orchi had for me.  But the effects may be subtle and may need to have more time to be seen.  I still would have it done again, just or eliminating spiro!

Quote from: Steph2.0 on March 20, 2019, 03:10:48 PM
I urge anyone who wants more information on progesterone, T blockers, estradiol, estrone, etc., and how they all work for trans folks to look up "Dr Will Powers" on Facebook, download his latest PowerPoint presentation on Care of the Transgender Patient, Version 5, and study it end to end. Seriously, this guy is extremely dedicated to us, reads the published studies, does his own research, and is loved by all his over-1200 trans patients. He has people flying to see him from as far away as California. I almost wish I lived in Michigan again so he could be my primary doctor.

I've already given my PCP version 4.0 of his presentation, and I intend to distill his latest findings on progesterone, along with the knowledge I've gained from this thread, and present it at my next appointment as proof that I should be on progesterone.

In a nutshell, he now refuses to use T-blockers, especially spiro, any more, since he's found that proper dosages of estradiol, administered appropriately for each individual, along with bioidentical micronized progesterone taken as a suppository, suppress testosterone adequately. He also recommends progesterone in cream form applied to the breasts and even the face. I won't give any more details here, but I strongly suggest you take a look.


Stephanie

that endocrinologist has good experience with trans children and adolescents? because my endocrinologist was only expert in the treatment of pubertal blockage when I was 12 years old, and when I started at 14 with estradiol she was very insecure that it could happen so she had me in very very low doses.

If he is only an expert in trans adults, it would be good to know.

Quote from: Dietlind on March 20, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
... and at least now that I pulled my PhD on him, he is willing to listen to me, and wants to see the information!

Linde,

Do not discount the value of your PhD.  Earning your degree means a lot of study, work and a significant contribution to the science of your field.

But you know that already.  ;)

Because of the work of many PhD candidates, we are steadily increasing our knowledge in many fields. This presentation on the value of bio identical Progesterone is a very good summary of the current state of cross sex  hormone therapy.

Previously I had accepted the conventional wisdom that suggested that Progesterone is unnecessary for our purposes. I have read and re read the article several times and I have changed my opinion as to the desirability of adding Progesterone. There are definite desirable effects that we can benefit from.

I am sure everyone has noticed the date that this paper was published.

I am also sure that Jerilynn C Prior now has PhD after her name.  :icon_joy:

Quote from: Dani on March 20, 2019, 08:15:07 PM
Linde,

Do not discount the value of your PhD.  Earning your degree means a lot of study, work and a significant contribution to the science of your field.

But you know that already.  ;)

I do Dani, but it does not define the value of me as a person!  And why should I get a better treatment from the endo, than the person next to me in the waiting room? 
I was very lucky that my employer financed my PhD, without that money and time, I would not have been able to do it.  We almost went broke financing the PhD of my wife, a second one was not in the game!

Quote
I am also sure that Jerilynn C Prior now has PhD after her name.  :icon_joy:

I hope very much so.  This work is very valuable and deserves the recognition of a PhD!

Quote from: Jessica on March 09, 2019, 06:44:42 PM
In my search for answers, I found that the one I was always given to my wonderings of the beneficial effects of progesterone that cis-women experience and why would it be a detriment to transgender women.  It seems plausible that progesterone should be introduced at some point during hrt transitioning.  But I was told, no, you'll develop breast cancer, no, you will have terrible moods, no, you'll be at a higher risk for cardiovascular diseases.  I thought, then why don't cis-women have these problems?
Well it turns out there are misconceptions and unknowns that drive those thoughts.

  Well as this talk of progesterone really got me thinking. Now thanks to all you Darn Girls I went to the specialist local clinic this morning and requested a prescription for Besins Prometrium micronised progesterone. In 7 days time I pick up the script and start a progesterone monthly cycle.! (excited).

I anticipate;

1. Jessica Alba will look like a man compared to me.

2. Kim Kardashian's arse will be smaller than mine.

3. Salma Hayek's breasts will seem insignificant.

4. I will be a bigger bitch than I am now - possibly bigger than Hilliary Clinton.

I will report further in 8 days.

                                           Kirsten xx. [emoji182]

I presented my HRT Dr with the study and responded by giving me a consent form for Progesterone and on this form it goes through the risks...citing increase in cholesterol, weight, risk of breast cancer, testosterone like effects and higher risk of cardiovascular disease with perceived benefits being increase in is breast growth and potential elevation of mood.

The whole form is designed to get you to consider the risks. without really talking about the benefits. My Dr went on to say that the bottom line is that some girls have a good result some have none...she proposes a 6 month trial which she will prescribe for me at our next appointment in 6 weeks(Oh the drama of it all!!) So given I have to wait 6 weeks to even get a script I will report again then.

To be fair I had my Oestrogen results come back after the last fiasco over the weird results I was getting on my blood test only to find that my Oestrogen was now 1/4 of what it should be 116pmol/l or 31.6ng/dl...sigh!! Maybe she should have left things alone!! No wonder I feel so bad and I have all these other symptoms... So I am back on the treadmill of dose titration. We will get there but it seems a pointless exercise or based on a knee jerk reaction to bad results. So I need to wait for this to be right before starting progesterone.

Liz

Thank you for putting that most  informative post out there Liz. Believe it or not I too am going through the correct channels as I have for Sandrena & Androcur- ( Informed Consent).

My health & vitals have been monitored closely to this point.

I am confident my prescribing doctor will provide a script on the 29th  of March when they become available and I will report further.

The main foreseeable issue I might have is slightly elevated blood pressure. I am maintaining less weight and regular exercise for this. Also my understanding is that progesterone ofsets risk of breast cancer - I will ask about it.

PS It sounds like your bloods may have been taken shortly after a dose instead of just before a dose ie 24 hours after previous. I have been through similar establishing my dose (pre op mtf for me).

It will.be interesting to see what all the girls report back on mood, fat transfer, breast development and general health.

I would love to hear your first hand experience Liz!

Kindest regards, Kirsten.


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Those results are from a mid afternoon testing which was 4.5 hrs after Sandrena gel applied. My Dr is saying that I was getting much better absorption rates when doing it on the underarm than on the inner thigh which accounts for the lower results.  Ideally she wants testing no sooner than 2 hrs after application of the gel...my Testosterone was at an expected 0.01 since I no longer have any equipment to produce any.

I almost forgot she has asked me to apply the gel to an area no bigger than one palm as this will improve the concentration...it sounds counter intuitive to me but she also has many years of experience to go by so will try it and see.

Having a surf of the web seems to suggest E + P therapy increases breast cancer risk. I wonder if anybody out there has some medical advice on that ?

With interest Kirsten


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Quote from: KayXo on March 10, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
Doctors, media and many other entities tend to sometimes confuse progesterone with other progestogens, namely medroxyprogesterone acetate.

PROGESTERONE is the hormone that is naturally produced in the human body, in greater quantities in women during the second part of their menstrual cycle and in very high quantities during pregnancy. It is available as oral Prometrium or Utrogestan, in suppositories as Cyclogest and as IM injection and it can also be compounded. During pregnancy, it is sometimes prescribed to women to prevent miscarriage or preterm delivery. It is also prescribed to women going through in-vitro fertility. The vast majority of studies have shown it DOES NOT increase breast cancer risk. Pregnancy, a time when progesterone levels are VERY high, has also been associated with a decreased risk of breast cancer.

MEDROXYPROGESTERONE ACETATE, on the other hand, was associated in a very large randomized trial from 2003 (Women's Health Initiative), with an increase in breast cancer incidence relative to women who weren't taking it. The bad press comes from this progestogen and also other progestogens that have been linked in other numerous studies to an increased risk of breast cancer and cardiovascular morbidity. This progestogen is NEVER prescribed to pregnant women as it can be mildly androgenic and can be harmful for the female fetus. It is not produced in the human body. It has also been associated with an increased risk of clots, been reported to adversely affect the cardiovascular system and sometimes dysregulate mood.

The issue with medroxyprogesterone acetate has mostly to do with its adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, breast tissue and coagulation whereas progesterone appears to have none of those adverse effects. MPA reduces estrogen's beneficial effects on lipids and vasodilating effects in arteries. Medroxyprogesterone is also slightly androgenic (activates androgen receptors) in contrast to progesterone which does not.

Progesterone production does not usually start in ciswomen until about Tanner 4 stage breast development. The passage to Tanner 5 stage breast development, significant (in terms of size/shape) according to Tanner scale/diagram, may be mediated by progesterone.

Kirsten

I note you are asking for evidence that E+P Therapy may increase breast cancer risk and that is a fair question.

My reading both from the evidence provided by Jessica at the start of this thread and by KayXo above is that the assumption of increased BC risk was a misunderstanding and may have applied previously with Progestins (MPA) but the opposite is the current medical thinking with regard to the proper stuff - Progesterone. Reduction instead of increased BC risk.

Hugs

Pamela

Some of the increase of breast cancer risk maybe simply because it causes bigger boobs.  It is a simple calculation, because if you have more breast tissue, you have more tissue to create cancer in.  That is the reason why females have way more breast cancer incidents than males,  breast cancer itself is not gender specific, it just depends on the kind and amount of tissue to develop in.

I wonder how breast size gets included into the statistics?

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 21, 2019, 06:27:09 AM
Having a surf of the web seems to suggest E + P therapy increases breast cancer risk. I wonder if anybody out there has some medical advice on that ?

With interest Kirsten


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Not if you use micronized Progesterone.  The study done on that was using medroxyprogesterone.  Yes, don't use this form of Progesterone.

Google "Beverly Cosgrove HRT" and all the data and info you need is on her HRT site.  She is very friendly and will answer any questions you have if she can. 

There is a lot of info on her site that is current.




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Thank you Pamela. I will keep the knowledge of the different progesterones in mind when I see my endo on the 29th.

That makes sense Linde. Also I guess any tissue growth that is fueled by the endocrine system can potentially become cancerous.

I am definately having a read of Beverly Cosgrove CindyLou - thank you so much.

Kirsten x.

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Quote from: Astxl on March 20, 2019, 07:43:30 PM
that endocrinologist has good experience with trans children and adolescents? because my endocrinologist was only expert in the treatment of pubertal blockage when I was 12 years old, and when I started at 14 with estradiol she was very insecure that it could happen so she had me in very very low doses.

If he is only an expert in trans adults, it would be good to know.

I don't know the answer to your question. From his Facebook page it seems that he may specialize in adults, but due to the sensitivity of treatment of children and adolescents, he may be deliberately avoiding any mention of that. I'd recommend contacting his office for more information.

On the other hand, I just ran across an announcement that GenderGP, which I believe is a gender clinic in the UK, is doing a livestream about transgender youth on March 31st. Here's a link for more information.  https://gendergp.co.uk/liveonlineevent/ (https://gendergp.co.uk/liveonlineevent/).

I hope that's helpful.

Stephanie

  One important fact about Beverly Cosgrove you all should know.  Her articles include this statement:

Quote"Disclaimers: (1) my personal experience may differ from some others. I was a DES baby and had some observable feminization from birth, and so my male endocrine system may have been easier to suppress than average. I have urogenital characteristics which imply the existence of some internal intersex anatomy. However, I did manage to generate two children by the usual method, so I was originally a chromosomal male. (2) In addition, I am a patient, not a doctor. This article should be a starting point for your own medical decisions in conjunction with your doctor. Nevertheless I have observed myself and many others on varying hormonal regimens for nearly 30 years, and am reporting on my experience and observations."

I am not saying Beverly Cosgrove or KayXo are providing incorrect information, I only point out that neither are Qualified medical professionals.  The article  referenced in the beginning of this thread is however from a Qualified professional source. You may want to choose what you bring to your doctor carefully.

Laurie

I have unlocked the topic after removing a post.

Please be aware of posts that break TOS10 - no matter who is being bashed.

Diatribes against the medical community or the health community in general are not wanted on this Forum.

I also caution against self medication. 

Cindy
Forum Administrator

I will add my positive experience to the pool of progesterone users.  I have been on P for about two years and started out using the cycling routine to mimic a cis female.  Welcome changes to my skin and breasts were some of the results.  I actually experienced more mood swings with that regimen and have since been on P daily for over a year.  I appreciated greater fullness of my breasts, the same improvements for my skin and better sleep almost every night.

Moods?  Well, i am still a challenging and cranky bitch at times but this transition seems wonderful and I am happy every day too.

Quote from: Tessa James on March 23, 2019, 08:10:01 PM
I will add my positive experience to the pool of progesterone users.  I have been on P for about two years and started out using the cycling routine to mimic a cis female.  Welcome changes to my skin and breasts were some of the results.  I actually experienced more mood swings with that regimen and have since been on P daily for over a year.  I appreciated greater fullness of my breasts, the same improvements for my skin and better sleep almost every night.

Moods?  Well, i am still a challenging and cranky bitch at times but this transition seems wonderful and I am happy every day too.

I'm still wondering what sort of bitch to be
Cranky sounds good. So does big bitch, nasty bitch, or even smart-ass bitch.

Kirsten x.

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Girls,

It's really important to understand the difference between progesterone and other progestins as the latter are man-created, not naturally produced by our bodies and as a result, due to their different molecular structure, have a different effect on the body as a whole due to their particular affinity and activation of different steroid receptors (androgen, mineralocorticoid, glucocorticoid, estrogen). This also results in different long-term effects.

It's often assumed that risks (cardiovascular, breast cancer, etc.) observed with progestins will also apply to progesterone but one should, IMHO, question such assumptions due to the different molecular structures. Studies have actually so far not found any of the same health risks associated with progesterone, pregnant women's progesterone levels also skyrocket and ciswomen cyclically produce progesterone during decades...food for thought. Are most ciswomen being rushed to the hospital?

Lastly, cyproterone acetate, a progestin, is still recommended (since the late 1980's) and included in the treatment for transwomen outside of the US despite the fact that progesterone is vilified and not recommended due to health risks associated with progestins. Why is that?

You can bring up these issues during your discussion with your doctor, see what they say.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 23, 2019, 08:16:33 PM
I'm still wondering what sort of bitch to be
Cranky sounds good. So does big bitch, nasty bitch, or even smart-ass bitch.

Kirsten x.

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LMAO, A dear friend subscribes to the excellent feminist magazine by that same name.

Quote from: Tessa James on March 26, 2019, 11:19:20 AM
LMAO, A dear friend subscribes to the excellent feminist magazine by that same name.

Interesting - I like printed magazines(and digital). I will check that out.

I like to read an Antonia Case magazine called Womankind. Full of thoughtful advice for living in the modern world.

Kirsten x.

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Kirsten

Just to confirm that I started on daily Progesterone (Utrogestan) authorized by my Endo on March 17th. I shall provide details of my subsequent feelings on my "HRT Record" thread in April/May.

I wish you good luck both in being authorized and in starting.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 27, 2019, 05:17:40 AM
Kirsten

Just to confirm that I started on daily Progesterone (Utrogestan) authorized by my Endo on March 17th. I shall provide details of my subsequent feelings on my "HRT Record" thread in April/May.

I wish you good luck both in being authorized and in starting.

Hugs

Pamela

So looking forward to hearing about it all Pamela.

I wonder if estrogen for a year or so followed by progesterone is beneficial for breasts. I wonder if progesterone from the very start gets the same results?

I guess we will both know a lot more very soon !

Yours truly, Kirsten.

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Hello Kirsten

I note from the other Progesterone thread that you obtained Besins Prometrium from you Endo today and that like me your medication is taken each day and not cycled.

Congratulations! We can compare notes in the next few weeks and months.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 29, 2019, 09:58:24 AM
Hello Kirsten

I note from the other Progesterone thread that you obtained Besins Prometrium from you Endo today and that like me your medication is taken each day and not cycled.

Congratulations! We can compare notes in the next few weeks and months.

Hugs

Pamela

Thats true Pamela! I am excited ! I really wonder about 1. Mood.  2. Breast growth.

I will be in close contact with personal findings.

Yours truly  Kirsten.[emoji3404]

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Kirsten

Just to let you know that like Laurie (on the other Progesterone thread), I also seek improvements to Bone Density as I have had Osteoporosis since 2007 but there was an improvement after annual infusions. I seek Progesterone primarily for breast maturation and for the yet unproven but hopeful sign of areolae increase.

Just to let you know that after 14 days on Progesterone, I have certainly noticed that I sleep better - both deeper and with less interruption.

As I said previously, I shall provide updates in April/May and subsequently on my "HRT Record" thread.

Hugs

Pamela

@pamelatransuk

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 31, 2019, 07:06:29 AM
Kirsten

Just to let you know that like Laurie (on the other Progesterone thread), I also seek improvements to Bone Density as I have had Osteoporosis since 2007 but there was an improvement after annual infusions. I seek Progesterone primarily for breast maturation and for the yet unproven but hopeful sign of areolae increase.

Just to let you know that after 14 days on Progesterone, I have certainly noticed that I sleep better - both deeper and with less interruption.

As I said previously, I shall provide updates in April/May and subsequently on my "HRT Record" thread.

Hugs

Pamela

Hi Pamela, as a small update on my own use of progesterone, my areolae have definitely increased in size.  In regards to sleep, mine has been more of a deeper variety with vivid dreams.

I am very happy for you Jess on both counts.

I hope to follow suit. Time will tell.

Hugs

Pamela

Jessica & Pamela,

would you ladies suggest taking the P in the morning or evening to aid sleep?

Kirsten x.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 31, 2019, 10:18:59 AM
Jessica & Pamela,

would you ladies suggest taking the P in the morning or evening to aid sleep?

Kirsten x.

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@Kirsteneklund7

Kirsten, I was advised to take it before bedtime, as it can make you sleepy.  Not good if you need to drive or the like.

Another observation I've made is that my nipples seem to be bigger, more projection too.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 31, 2019, 10:05:08 AM
I am very happy for you Jess on both counts.

I hope to follow suit. Time will tell.

Hugs

Pamela

I will see my endo on the 11st, and I hope that i can convince him to prescribe it for me.  I did send him already all the new research info!

Quote from: Jessica on March 31, 2019, 10:35:08 AM
@Kirsteneklund7

Kirsten, I was advised to take it before bedtime, as it can make you sleepy.  Not good if you need to drive or the like.

Another observation I've made is that my nipples seem to be bigger, more projection too.

Thank you so much fot the tip Jessica. Also it sounds like beneficial breast development is already happening for you!

Kind regards, Kirsten.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 31, 2019, 10:56:06 AM
Thank you so much fot the tip Jessica. Also it sounds like beneficia breast development is already happening for you!

Kind regards, Kirsten.

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Kirsten, I thank my mom for that... my hips, thighs and butt have definitely gained fat since I started HRT, my boobs started rather rapidly.  There is no hiding them.

Quote from: Jessica on March 31, 2019, 11:04:59 AM
Kirsten, I thank my mom for that... my hips, thighs and butt have definitely gained fat since I started HRT, my boobs started rather rapidly.  There is no hiding them.

Isnt that such an uplifting & euphoric feeling ! ?

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 31, 2019, 10:18:59 AM
Jessica & Pamela,

would you ladies suggest taking the P in the morning or evening to aid sleep?

Kirsten x.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I was also advised to take Progesterone before going to bed and without food.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Dietlind on March 31, 2019, 10:45:08 AM
I will see my endo on the 11st, and I hope that i can convince him to prescribe it for me.  I did send him already all the new research info!

Best of luck, Linde. I am sure your Endo will agree.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on March 31, 2019, 11:11:30 AM
Isnt that such an uplifting & euphoric feeling ! ?

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Jess

Congratulations again

Kirsten/Jess

Uplifting in more ways than one!


Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 01, 2019, 03:53:07 AM
I was also advised to take Progesterone before going to bed and without food.

Hugs

Pamela

Im going to do this Pamela. My doctor just advised to take the E & AA & P at one time. I will do this before before bed.

Also looking forward to your P experience Pamela.

Last night was a good sleep for me. Will report further on that angle.

  Kirsten[emoji932][emoji11]

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Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 01, 2019, 03:56:05 AM
Best of luck, Linde. I am sure your Endo will agree.

Hugs

Pamela

Tank you Pamela.  But with him I am not so sure, because he feels he is the greatest.  I might have to remind him again that I am also a medical expert!  He seems to thrive on academic titles!

Hello fellow progesterone patients & potential proponents & protagonists of Prometrium.

Progesterone does seem to inrease sleepiness( for me first hand) . At the moment taking Androcur,Sandrena, Prometrium just before bed.

Good sleep is the result.

At the moment vitals are 6' 189 lbs, bust 46" waist 36" hips 41" size 16 uk.

I am terrified of bloating on P in all the wrong places. Hoping for more breast development - would love to offset masculine frame with more bum & hips

Would love to get to 174 lbs but struggling.

Mood is unaffected so far. Was a bitch before HRT. Hoping to be a bigger one(not fatter one)

Hopefully P will assist in the RIGHT places.

Look out Jessica Alba !

Kirsten xx.

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KIrsten

I note your comments with regard to your hopes and aims and I am glad that you are another girl whose sleep has improved.

Just out of interest, do you also seek areolae increase (like Jess and I) please?

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 03, 2019, 08:11:53 AM
KIrsten

I note your comments with regard to your hopes and aims and I am glad that you are another girl whose sleep has improved.

Just out of interest, do you also seek areolae increase (like Jess and I) please?

Hugs

Pamela

Just as a side line, you do such a nice job in keeping tabs on the blood levels of hormones,  would you want to start something similar on the size of areolae?
I am all alone here, and have no clue, if I have big or little one, and because it is many years ago now that my breasts started to grow, I have no memory anymore how mine looked like when I was as flat chested as the guy next door.
I am currently around 1 3/8" (they are not easy to measure, because I need glasses to see that close, and my glasses don't turn that far down to see properly).

@Dietlind

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 08:29:54 AM
Just as a side line, you do such a nice job in keeping tabs on the blood levels of hormones,  would you want to start something similar on the size of areolae?
I am all alone here, and have no clue, if I have big or little one, and because it is many years ago now that my breasts started to grow, I have no memory anymore how mine looked like when I was as flat chested as the guy next door.
I am currently around 1 3/8" (they are not easy to measure, because I need glasses to see that close, and my glasses don't turn that far down to see properly).

Hi Linde, my areolae fluctuated in size from the beginning of starting hrt.  My first areolae measurements were 1 1/4" and my nipples were 1/4".  As I mentioned those dimensions changed at times from larger (up to 1 3/4") then back to the original size prior to starting prometrium.
After 3 weeks on progesterone my areolae increased to 2" and my nipples increased to 3/8" and projected out further.  Headlights anyone.........

Quote from: Jessica on April 03, 2019, 09:58:33 AM
@Dietlind

Hi Linde, my areolae fluctuated in size from the beginning of starting hrt.  My first areolae measurements were 1 1/4" and my nipples were 1/4".  As I mentioned those dimensions changed at times from larger (up to 1 3/4") then back to the original size prior to starting prometrium.
After 3 weeks on progesterone my areolae increased to 2" and my nipples increased to 3/8" and projected out further.  Headlights anyone.........

Thanks, and I made a typo.  My areolae are 1 3/4 and not 1 3/8 of an inch! They do not fluctuate in size at all  My nipples, when hard, are about 1/4", and also project out by about 1/4".
Now I really am wondering what progesterone would do to my "headlights"? I would not want areolae that cover half of a breast as one can see with some women, and I also would not want nipples that are to big.  I do not need and plan to nurse any babies, and if my nipples would not get any bigger, it would be fine with me!
I want to grow one more bra size, which might be possible, because the girls are still hurting constantly.  And I hope that one of these days, my right side boob will catch up with the left side one, because it is darn hard to find bras with different cup sizes for left and right!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 10:50:02 AM
Thanks, and I made a typo.  My areolae are 1 3/4 and not 1 3/8 of an inch! They do not fluctuate in size at all  My nipples, when hard, are about 1/4", and also project out by about 1/4".
Now I really am wondering what progesterone would do to my "headlights"? I would not want areolae that cover half of a breast as one can see with some women, and I also would not want nipples that are to big.  I do not need and plan to nurse any babies, and if my nipples would not get any bigger, it would be fine with me!
I want to grow one more bra size, which might be possible, because the girls are still hurting constantly.  And I hope that one of these days, my right side boob will catch up with the left side one, because it is darn hard to find bras with different cup sizes for left and right!

Hi Linde,                         03 April 2019

Get a stretchy sports bra; that should work until the left and right match up.

Best Always, Love
Chris

Quote from: christinej78 on April 03, 2019, 12:21:35 PM
Hi Linde,                         03 April 2019

Get a stretchy sports bra; that should work until the left and right match up.

Best Always, Love
Chris

Thanks Christine, that is the way i am running around the world currently, but this will not allow for a nice shaped look of the boobs under a dress!

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 03, 2019, 08:11:53 AM
KIrsten

I note your comments with regard to your hopes and aims and I am glad that you are another girl whose sleep has improved.

Just out of interest, do you also seek areolae increase (like Jess and I) please?

Hugs

Pamela

My areola and nipples are a cis looking size already.I will measure and pass on. I guess breast maturation is what I would like to see. I take a 40 B bra, a 38 C would look better on my ribcage.

Hopefully more breast volume will happen and the conical shape of transgender breasts will become more cis.

Just remember girls- SIZE DOES MATTER !
(LoL)

Kirsten x.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 03, 2019, 02:34:46 PM
My areola and nipples are a cis looking size already.I will measure and pass on. I guess breast maturation is what I would like to see. I take a 40 B bra, a 38 C would look better on my ribcage.

Hopefully more breast volume will happen and the conical shape of transgender breasts will become more cis.

Just remember girls- SIZE DOES MATTER !
(LoL)

Kirsten x.

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I hope for the same!  And size does matter, at least to me.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 03, 2019, 02:34:46 PM
My areola and nipples are a cis looking size already.I will measure and pass on. I guess breast maturation is what I would like to see. I take a 40 B bra, a 38 C would look better on my ribcage.

Hopefully more breast volume will happen and the conical shape of transgender breasts will become more cis.

Just remember girls- SIZE DOES MATTER !
(LoL)

Kirsten x.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

You use the same bra size I do.  But I would not fit into a 38 size.  My breasts are "older" than yours (I started to grow them several years ago, and they grew rather slowly), and they do not have the conical shape you are talking about.  i can do the pencil test with both sides, which means they are looking pretty "normal", but kind of getting lost on my chest.  I definitely need one size more, and would be pretty happy with a well developed 40 C bust!  I hope progesterone will help estrogen with that task.  They seem to be still growing, because they still hurt all the time, but watching grass grow is more entertaining because of it's super fast growing action!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 05:23:17 PM
You use the same bra size I do.  But I would not fit into a 38 size.  My breasts are "older" than yours (I started to grow them several years ago, and they grew rather slowly), and they do not have the conical shape you are talking about.  i can do the pencil test with both sides, which means they are looking pretty "normal", but kind of getting lost on my chest.  I definitely need one size more, and would be pretty happy with a well developed 40 C bust!  I hope progesterone will help estrogen with that task.  They seem to be still growing, because they still hurt all the time, but watching grass grow is more entertaining because of it's super fast growing action!

Hi Linde,
              I started out with a much bigger band- 44" but HRT reduced my latissimus muscles a lot and if I got really lean I think I will go back to 38". As you say Linde a bigger than cis ribcage needs bigger breasts to look in proportion.

PS; I always like hearing your progress with E & P & T level ect. You are living as a woman - I think you are so lucky - I would love to be doing the same !

Yours, Kirsten.
 

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 03, 2019, 07:52:57 PM
Hi Linde,
              I started out with a much bigger band- 44" but HRT reduced my latissimus muscles a lot and if I got really lean I think I will go back to 38". As you say Linde a bigger than cis ribcage needs bigger breasts to look in proportion.

PS; I always like hearing your progress with E & P & T level ect. You are living as a woman - I think you are so lucky - I would love to be doing the same !

Yours, Kirsten.

You will be able to do it one day.  I had to pay for my freedom of female expressions with my marriage, and sometimes I wonder if I gave up to much by doing so.
I can't change that anymore, and because of this I go full steam ahead and live my life as a woman.  I would never have thought how accepting my environment is bout this.  I think we almost create our own biggest barriers, by thinking others may not accept us!  Life as a woman is just glorious!  Not so nice are some of the administrative hurdles one has to hop over to get one paperwork/identification changed!

Good luck for you, you can and will do it!
Linde

Quote from: Jessica on March 12, 2019, 04:46:06 PM
Has anyone experienced "night sweats" while taking progesterone?  I woke in the middle of the night drenched after taking my first dose last night.

I was on it for 6 months last year (January- June) and never experienced that.

I have been back on it since January this year and still have not experienced it.

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 08:08:30 PM
You will be able to do it one day.  I had to pay for my freedom of female expressions with my marriage, and sometimes I wonder if I gave up to much by doing so.
I can't change that anymore, and because of this I go full steam ahead and live my life as a woman.  I would never have thought how accepting my environment is bout this.  I think we almost create our own biggest barriers, by thinking others may not accept us!  Life as a woman is just glorious!  Not so nice are some of the administrative hurdles one has to hop over to get one paperwork/identification changed!

Good luck for you, you can and will do it!
Linde

Thank you Linde. That does bolster hope for me.

  Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 03, 2019, 02:34:46 PM
My areola and nipples are a cis looking size already.I will measure and pass on. I guess breast maturation is what I would like to see. I take a 40 B bra, a 38 C would look better on my ribcage.

Hopefully more breast volume will happen and the conical shape of transgender breasts will become more cis.

Just remember girls- SIZE DOES MATTER !
(LoL)

Kirsten x.

Hello again

Most definitely. To be precise I think the three aspects matter.

1. Boob symmetry although I know some ciswomen never achieve it.

2. Size and shape of boobs and in proportion to ribcage or bodyframe

3. Size of nipples and areolae in proportion to boobs.

As I am only 14 months HRT and of course a mere 19 days Progesterone, I will give it time before determining whether BA may be necessary.

As you know I have now only 2 months to wait till fulltime Pamela but as Linde says, your time will also come. I perceive that ultimately that is your intention.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: Dietlind on April 03, 2019, 08:08:30 PM
I would never have thought how accepting my environment is about this.  I think we almost create our own biggest barriers, by thinking others may not accept us! 

Linde

Hello again

I am surprisingly and happily discovering this too. I was certainly far too pessimistic about acceptance and assumed barriers to be more difficult than they are. The anti-reaction is definitely on the decline. I am confident that so many of us including you and Kirsten and I shall indeed live and appreciate the female life!

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 04, 2019, 04:50:54 AM
Hello again

Most definitely. To be precise I think the three aspects matter.

1. Boob symmetry although I know some ciswomen never achieve it.

2. Size and shape of boobs and in proportion to ribcage or bodyframe

3. Size of nipples and areolae in proportion to boobs.

As I am only 14 months HRT and of course a mere 19 days Progesterone, I will give it time before determining whether BA may be necessary.

As you know I have now only 2 months to wait till fulltime Pamela but as Linde says, your time will also come. I perceive that ultimately that is your intention.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Hi Pamela,
                  It is the end of the day and I have taken my E& P & Androcur.

Yes it is my intention to live as my feminine self. I actually like to be challenged on this. I just spent the evening talking off the cuff with my wife and female friends. As per my standard life they forgot I was a man in company and discussed reproduction and menses ect as did I even though I have spent my life as a masculine man. I contributed with vicarious experience and empathy.

Pamela, logic & rational thought dictates I should be a man & I have succeeded in this
despite taking on the masculine identity at age 13 against my heart, disapointment and thinking it is what I SHOULD do.

The discord between the feminine and masculine kills me.

I have tried to cure myself all my life and now I must do something even though I dont know if I have what it takes to be a woman.

In 2016 I started to transition and it nearly ruined my life. I am trying again on more solid ground.

I can only do this without surgery for now to find out what is possible & what is needed.

Having a more feminine body is a huge relief.

I wish I had your clarity of gender,

Kirsten xx.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Kirsten

Glad to hear of your evening conversation.

I wish you all the best in your transition and to whatever extent you wish to take it.

Sleep well tonight!

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 04, 2019, 07:03:23 AM

I can only do this without surgery for now to find out what is possible & what is needed.

Having a more feminine body is a huge relief.

I wish I had your clarity of gender,

Kirsten xx.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Kirsten, talking about missing clarity.  Look at my life!  Most of my life I had no gender identity, I was not even in that girls dream thing when I was younger, I was a noting who tried to be a man!  That did not work out well in the long run, and I became a nothing again!  My desired to become a woman started when my body clearly indicated that it was to going this way, and did not care if my brain was ready to follow or not.  Luckily my brain hopped onto the feminin bandwagon, and the desire to become a woman grew dramatically inside me, and i started to develop a female identity!  Here I sit now, in the morning just had my cup of coffee, wearing female underwear, and not even thinking twice about it!  Putting one male underwear does not even cross my mind anymore!  I am a woman, and women wear the appropriate gender oriented underwear (and for my convenience, I wear a bra with a front closure).
You, too will overcome the doubts about your gender and will start to wear what the final gender will wear!
Good luck for your path!
Linde

Hi All,                                 04 April 2019

I need to read this whole thread, but a couple of things kept popping up in what I have read so far, and would appreciate your comments.

Anyone that has read my main thread will know I suffered a DVT last November 23rd and have been off my Her-mones / She-mones (Estradiol patches) since.

Early in my transition, 13 April 18, I had an Orchie, so my T & E are at Eunuch levels; not where I want to be.

I have an appointment 17 April 2019 for another D-Dimer blood test. It will indicate whether or not I still have clots. The test looks for debris from disintegrating clots. I have been on Xarelto anticoagulant 4 months with two months to go on the normal 6 month regime. If the debris count is higher than 0.49 it'll mean clots still remain. I've had three ultrasounds of my legs, the first found 2, the second found 1 and the third found none. This is a positive, but not positive enough to resume She-mones; the D-Dimer will be definitive along with another ultrasound.

When I first saw the hematologist several months ago, we had a conversation about Progesterone. He recommended Progesterone as the She-mone I should use rather than Estradiol. Since I don't yet know how my DVT treatment will resolve out, I'd like to know more about Progesterone and how it affects those of us transitioning. I'll be 79 in 4 months and would like to continue my transition safely. I have an appointment (24 April) with the Hematologist, which is one week after the D-Dimer test, to review where I am at that time.

I will still have to see my Endocrinologist before doing anything transition wise; she and the Hematologist will be the ones that will help me decide.

Does anyone know if Progesterone alone will feminize or will I be stuck in a rut to nowhere? I also noticed in the study that Spiro was mentioned several times. I was never on it and never wanted to be on it, hence I had the orchie early on in my transition. What roll, if any, besides blocking the T receptors does Spiro play in the use of Progesterone?

I am going to finish reading this thread before I see my Hematologist and Endocrinologist. Thanks for any info and or suggestions you can provide.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Kirsten,

Be yourself.  You are the only one who knows what you need to feel good.  This is month 4 for me, and at 60, I am so loving the changes.  I have been on Progesterone for about a month and it has made me feel even better.  Not to mention how much better a sleep I get.

The one thing I noticed is that nipples are much larger, and for some reason, I like seeing them visible in what I am wearing....its at the point where my wife said, please put a bra or camisole on. lol

Much peace and love to you,

Bobbie

Quote from: bobbiesj on April 04, 2019, 12:03:33 PM
Kirsten,

Be yourself.  You are the only one who knows what you need to feel good.  This is month 4 for me, and at 60, I am so loving the changes.  I have been on Progesterone for about a month and it has made me feel even better.  Not to mention how much better a sleep I get.

The one thing I noticed is that nipples are much larger, and for some reason, I like seeing them visible in what I am wearing....its at the point where my wife said, please put a bra or camisole on. lol

Much peace and love to you,

Bobbie

Hi Bobbie,                             04 April 2019

Welcome to Susan's. The Welcome Wagon Ladies will be along shortly to officially welcome you. I'm just the Good Humor Lady lurking about.

Best Always, Love
Christine

@bobbiesj

Quote from: bobbiesj on April 04, 2019, 12:03:33 PM
Kirsten,

Be yourself.  You are the only one who knows what you need to feel good.  This is month 4 for me, and at 60, I am so loving the changes.  I have been on Progesterone for about a month and it has made me feel even better.  Not to mention how much better a sleep I get.

The one thing I noticed is that nipples are much larger, and for some reason, I like seeing them visible in what I am wearing....its at the point where my wife said, please put a bra or camisole on. lol

Much peace and love to you,

Bobbie

Hi Bobbie 🙋‍♀️ Welcome to Susan's Place!  I'm Jessica.
Thank you for sharing your experiences here.

I see you're new here, so I'll post some links that may help you get better acquainted with the site. Pay attention to the site rules they can be of great help and don't forget the link highlighted red.  It has answers to questions that are commonly asked.  Then join in on a topic you find interesting and learn and share.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) Forum to tell the members about yourself!

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)	Cautionary Note (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,82221.0.html)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)	Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html)

Thank you Bobbiesj. I will !

Kirsten [emoji176]

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: Dietlind on April 04, 2019, 08:27:50 AM
Kirsten, talking about missing clarity.  Look at my life!  Most of my life I had no gender identity, I was not even in that girls dream thing when I was younger, I was a noting who tried to be a man!  That did not work out well in the long run, and I became a nothing again!  My desired to become a woman started when my body clearly indicated that it was to going this way, and did not care if my brain was ready to follow or not.  Luckily my brain hopped onto the feminin bandwagon, and the desire to become a woman grew dramatically inside me, and i started to develop a female identity!  Here I sit now, in the morning just had my cup of coffee, wearing female underwear, and not even thinking twice about it!  Putting one male underwear does not even cross my mind anymore!  I am a woman, and women wear the appropriate gender oriented underwear (and for my convenience, I wear a bra with a front closure).
You, too will overcome the doubts about your gender and will start to wear what the final gender will wear!
Good luck for your path!
Linde

Thanks again, Linde you are a sweetheart. You really give me hope.

Kirsten x.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: christinej78 on April 04, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Hi All,                                 04 April 2019

When I first saw the hematologist several months ago, we had a conversation about Progesterone. He recommended Progesterone as the She-mone I should use rather than Estradiol. Since I don't yet know how my DVT treatment will resolve out, I'd like to know more about Progesterone and how it affects those of us transitioning. I'll be 79 in 4 months and would like to continue my transition safely. I have an appointment (24 April) with the Hematologist, which is one week after the D-Dimer test, to review where I am at that time.

I will still have to see my Endocrinologist before doing anything transition wise; she and the Hematologist will be the ones that will help me decide.

Does anyone know if Progesterone alone will feminize or will I be stuck in a rut to nowhere? I am going to finish reading this thread before I see my Hematologist and Endocrinologist. Thanks for any info and or suggestions you can provide.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Hello Christine and so nice to see you join this extremely informative thread both from as medical point of view (see origin of thread) and from the points of view of so many of us who have recently started with Progesterone.

There is so much to take in at the origin of the thread. In simple terms my advice would be to inform your Endo and Hemat of the latest scientific evidence herein which is as recent as January 2019. Secondly it will be necessary to differentiate between Progesterone to which this thread refers ONLY as opposed to progestins (MPA).

My limited knowledge from other previous Progesterone threads (aswell as this one) is that Progesterone if considered is added to E and not customarily substituted for E.  However it will be interesting to know why your Hemat may prefer substitution instead of addition if he follows that route. I assume it is for a reason connected to blood of course.

I think everyone on this thread on Progesterone take the medication at bedtime as it does make you drowsy and provides more and deeper sleep.

I hope you are soon able to resume HRT whether with or without Progesterone.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: bobbiesj on April 04, 2019, 12:03:33 PM
Kirsten,

Be yourself.  You are the only one who knows what you need to feel good.  This is month 4 for me, and at 60, I am so loving the changes.  I have been on Progesterone for about a month and it has made me feel even better.  Not to mention how much better a sleep I get.

The one thing I noticed is that nipples are much larger, and for some reason, I like seeing them visible in what I am wearing....its at the point where my wife said, please put a bra or camisole on. lol

Much peace and love to you,

Bobbie

Hello Bobbie

You have certainly chosen a really interesting and informative thread on which to make your first posting!

I am 64 and have been on HRT 14 months but a mere 20 days on Progesterone. As you may have read, I chose to mention it to my Endo in February mainly for the hope of areolae increase but also that it may help my low bone density - osteoporosis.

Clearly you and I and Kirsten and others on this thread are looking for similar potential benefits and it seems that we are all sleeping better as a bonus. Congratulations on the nipples increase!

I wish you every happiness and success on your HRT journey.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 05, 2019, 05:02:27 AM
Hello Bobbie

You have certainly chosen a really interesting and informative thread on which to make your first posting!

I am 64 and have been on HRT 14 months but a mere 20 days on Progesterone. As you may have read, I chose to mention it to my Endo in February mainly for the hope of areolae increase but also that it may help my low bone density - osteoporosis.

Clearly you and I and Kirsten and others on this thread are looking for similar potential benefits and it seems that we are all sleeping better as a bonus. Congratulations on the nipples increase!

I wish you every happiness and success on your HRT journey.

Hugs

Pamela

Am I the only one here who is not really looking for an areola or nipple increase?  I feel both o those are large enough for my size of boobs (close to 2" areolae, and 1/4" nipple)  I find it very unattractive if the areolae cover a major section of the frontal parts of a breast.  I would not like to have this happening to me!
I would not mind if my breasts are filled out more on the top (get rounder), but I am mainly interested in fighting any possible loss of bone density and get a better sleep.  I sleep between 4 and 6 hours max at night, and have to take a nap every day to make up for this.  Napping is OK, but it limits the daily activities pretty much!

Thanks Pamela, and likewise.

Bobbie

Quote from: Dietlind on April 05, 2019, 10:07:48 AM
Am I the only one here who is not really looking for an areola or nipple increase?  I feel both o those are large enough for my size of boobs (close to 2" areolae, and 1/4" nipple)  I find it very unattractive if the areolae cover a major section of the frontal parts of a breast.  I would not like to have this happening to me!
I would not mind if my breasts are filled out more on the top (get rounder), but I am mainly interested in fighting any possible loss of bone density and get a better sleep.  I sleep between 4 and 6 hours max at night, and have to take a nap every day to make up for this.  Napping is OK, but it limits the daily activities pretty much!

Well I measured mine yesterday, and ,my areolas are only about 1 inch in diameter, and are rather smaller looking, but then again, I don't have much in the way of breasts yet so they don't look at all odd.  THat being said, if they stay this size as my breasts get larger, it will look odd.

So if you are happy with the size and proportion of your breasts and the areolas and nipples are in proportion, then I think you are probably "right" in not wanting them to get much larger at all.

Hi jessica;

Unfortunately my iMAC auto-spelling keeps  translating Prometrium into Promethium!. So sorry about that!!
Judith

Hello Everyone

I think we have 3 general points to consider as we take forward and start/continue Progesterone under medical supervision:

1. ChrissyRyan's point on the other thread about the possible anti-estrogenic effect of Progesterone.
2. Daily use of Progesterone implied as cycling not stipulated at the origin of this thread. Some of us prefer to cycle. I am daily but have only been on it 22 days and hence have no personal experience to make comparison.
3. It is stated at the origin of the thread that we should be on an AA and E and Progesterone whereas there has been a move in some quarters recently to consider AA not necessary. However I am on an AA and E and Progesterone.

Just to consider in the months ahead.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 07, 2019, 06:40:58 AM
Hello Everyone

I think we have 3 general points to consider as we take forward and start/continue Progesterone under medical supervision:

1. ChrissyRyan's point on the other thread about the possible anti-estrogenic effect of Progesterone.
2. Daily use of Progesterone implied as cycling not stipulated at the origin of this thread. Some of us prefer to cycle. I am daily but have only been on it 22 days and hence have no personal experience to make comparison.
3. It is stated at the origin of the thread that we should be on an AA and E and Progesterone whereas there has been a move in some quarters recently to consider AA not necessary. However I am on an AA and E and Progesterone.

Just to consider in the months ahead.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Good evening Pamela,
                                        Just out of interest, have you experinced any influence of P on mood at this stage?

Wondering, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

To be completely honest, it is to early for me to judge on mood other than to confirm I am sleeping better which may or may not be connected to mood.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 07, 2019, 08:40:54 AM
To be completely honest, it is to early for me to judge on mood other than to confirm I am sleeping better which may or may not be connected to mood.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Better sleep is always a plus.   :)

I read through this significant Progesterone (P) thread that Jessica started and it was good to do so.  If I were to start supervised P, I think I may not have head hair loss as some said they have had, because I use Finasteride.

Chrissy

One thing that has changed for me in my fourth week of P is an increased libido.  I do not cycle the P and take it daily.  I know that during the luteal phase E is reduced and P is increased which causes a drop in libido in cis-women, but that possibly is different with a constant level of P throughout the month.  Spontaneous erections have been absent since I started hrt, but have returned with a vengeance in the last week. 

Quote from: Jessica on April 07, 2019, 09:00:18 AM
One thing that has changed for me in my fourth week of P is an increased libido.  I do not cycle the P and take it daily.  I know that during the luteal phase E is reduced and P is increased which causes a drop in libido in cis-women, but that possibly is different with a constant level of P throughout the month.  Spontaneous erections have been absent since I started hrt, but have returned with a vengeance in the last week.

This is interesting!  I hardly can remember anymore what libido is!  Are you on Testosteron blockers or did you have an orchi?  I wonder if I would be able to get any erections after I have had the orchi?  I am running on estrogen alone now, and progesterone may change a little about my feelings, too?
I see my endo next week, and by that time he should have read through all the info i emailed to him concerning progesterone.  I hope he will put me onto it!

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 07, 2019, 08:52:29 AM

Better sleep is always a plus.   :)

I read through this significant Progesterone (P) thread that Jessica started and it was good to do so.  If I were to start supervised P, I think I may not have head hair loss as some said they have had, because I use Finasteride.

Chrissy

Hair loss scares me! I wonder what the typical effect is on P ?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Quote from: Jessica on April 07, 2019, 09:00:18 AM
One thing that has changed for me in my fourth week of P is an increased libido.  I do not cycle the P and take it daily.  I know that during the luteal phase E is reduced and P is increased which causes a drop in libido in cis-women, but that possibly is different with a constant level of P throughout the month.  Spontaneous erections have been absent since I started hrt, but have returned with a vengeance in the last week.

@Jessica

Jessica,

Perhaps this increased libido is the result of more accumulated Progesterone in your bloodstream over the course of the four weeks.  What would be interesting is to see if this elevated libido level continues week after week if you do not cycle Progesterone, or if it tapers off if you begin to cycle, or if it eventually tapers off or gets stronger if you keep taking Progesterone without cycling.  Also if you find that increased libido (not specifically talking about the erections!) is beneficial or not for yourself.

Chrissy

Yes Chrissy

There are so many aspects to look out for on Progesterone.

I assume you are also considering starting on it if agreed by your Endo?

Are you seeking both emotional and physical benefit? Presumably quicker feminization? Do you like some of us, desire areolae or nipples increase please?

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 08, 2019, 03:41:44 AM
Yes Chrissy

There are so many aspects to look out for on Progesterone.

I assume you are also considering starting on it if agreed by your Endo?

Are you seeking both emotional and physical benefit? Presumably quicker feminization? Do you like some of us, desire areolae or nipples increase please?

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Pamela,

Yes, I will discuss using Progesterone with the physician when I can along with other questions.
I would like to have more feminine facial features and a more feminine body because I am a trans-woman.

I am unsure about gaining specific breast characteristics, I just want them to look natural and to be noticeable.  They do not have to get big, but I hope they will end up looking nice. 
I have been very patient. 

I really do not want to do facial surgery or BA and will remain patient.
I am not in a huge hurry because I still need more voice improvement but it is time to get more progress, slowly but surely.

I do appreciate all of your insightful posts that I have read.  Thank you for them.

Hugs,

Chrissy

Thank you Chrissy for your kind words and I appreciate your thoughtful posts on some many different subjects also.

We both coincidentally joined Susans in January 2018.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 07, 2019, 06:40:58 AM
Hello Everyone

I think we have 3 general points to consider as we take forward and start/continue Progesterone under medical supervision:

1. ChrissyRyan's point on the other thread about the possible anti-estrogenic effect of Progesterone.
2. Daily use of Progesterone implied as cycling not stipulated at the origin of this thread. Some of us prefer to cycle. I am daily but have only been on it 22 days and hence have no personal experience to make comparison.
3. It is stated at the origin of the thread that we should be on an AA and E and Progesterone whereas there has been a move in some quarters recently to consider AA not necessary. However I am on an AA and E and Progesterone.

Just to consider in the months ahead.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Hello Everyone

On an other thread Linde (Dietlind) has mentioned the possibility of on or after being prescribed Progesterone, amending dosage of Estradiol. This is similar to Chrissy's point - my point 1. above.

It will be interesting to see after we have been on Progesterone for a reasonable period (pun intended) of time and have our Blood Test results, whether it becomes necessary to adjust the dosage of E upwards (as P is somewhat anti-estrogenic) or downwards (as E level high) or leave as it is.

For those of us on any non-tablet form of E - I am on twice weekly patches - there will be a timing difference simply as E patches are more gradual than P tablets as the latter are taken every 24 hours (at bedtime).

So many things to take into account for us and our doctors.

Hugs

Pamela  xx 

@pamelatransuk
@Jessica

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 05, 2019, 04:53:18 AM
Hello Christine and so nice to see you join this extremely informative thread both from as medical point of view (see origin of thread) and from the points of view of so many of us who have recently started with Progesterone.

There is so much to take in at the origin of the thread. In simple terms my advice would be to inform your Endo and Hemat of the latest scientific evidence herein which is as recent as January 2019. Secondly it will be necessary to differentiate between Progesterone to which this thread refers ONLY as opposed to progestins (MPA).

My limited knowledge from other previous Progesterone threads (aswell as this one) is that Progesterone if considered is added to E and not customarily substituted for E.  However it will be interesting to know why your Hemat may prefer substitution instead of addition if he follows that route. I assume it is for a reason connected to blood of course.

I think everyone on this thread on Progesterone take the medication at bedtime as it does make you drowsy and provides more and deeper sleep.

I hope you are soon able to resume HRT whether with or without Progesterone.

Hugs

Pamela

Hi Pamela,                       09 April 2019

Thanks for responding 05 April 19 to my post. Sorry it took so long, I have been busy with other issues and didn't have time.

When I had my conversation with the hematologist he stated the reason he prefers Progesterone is that it doesn't make blood sticky like Estrogen and Testosterone do, though Testosterone does it to a lesser extent than Estrogen.

Please don't take this as gospel as this was a short conversation at the conclusion of my first and so far only visit. My next actual visit with the Doctor will be Wednesday 24 April 2019, one week after my D-Dimer blood test.

Whatever I find out at the appt. on the 24th I will post on this thread. I still have to finish reading all the posts.

This is a very informative thread and the documentation supplied by Jessica is very helpful. I know I don't understand all of it but I will learn.

Thanks again Pamela. I hope your transition is going along very well and that you are happy with your progress.

Thank you Jessica for creating this important thread.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 07, 2019, 06:55:22 AM
Good evening Pamela,
                                        Just out of interest, have you experinced any influence of P on mood at this stage?

Wondering, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I have been back on E and P since the beginning of January.  I started back on my AA just over a  month ago.

What I can say is that over the last 4 months, and in particular this last cycle (which ends today (sort of, but more on that later), is that I have noticed at times I tear up a bit easier and more than I  would have otherwise.  Not full on crying or anything, but wet eyes that leak and drip down my cheeks, and maybe the occasional snotting up too.

Quote from: Jessica on April 07, 2019, 09:00:18 AM
One thing that has changed for me in my fourth week of P is an increased libido.  I do not cycle the P and take it daily.  I know that during the luteal phase E is reduced and P is increased which causes a drop in libido in cis-women, but that possibly is different with a constant level of P throughout the month.  Spontaneous erections have been absent since I started hrt, but have returned with a vengeance in the last week.

I'm kind of curious about this myself.    Most if not all HRT regimens have E at a constant dose, and if P is used it is either cycled, usually 10 days on, and 20 days off.  But I was wondering and had mentioned to my GD this morning when we were talking about this article (more comments from the Transgender team later in this post) if there would be any benefit of a constant daily dose during the off cycle days and and increase doe of P to cycle it on.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 09, 2019, 06:36:51 AM
Hello Everyone

On an other thread Linde (Dietlind) has mentioned the possibility of on or after being prescribed Progesterone, amending dosage of Estradiol. This is similar to Chrissy's point - my point 1. above.

It will be interesting to see after we have been on Progesterone for a reasonable period (pun intended) of time and have our Blood Test results, whether it becomes necessary to adjust the dosage of E upwards (as P is somewhat anti-estrogenic) or downwards (as E level high) or leave as it is.

For those of us on any non-tablet form of E - I am on twice weekly patches - there will be a timing difference simply as E patches are more gradual than P tablets as the latter are taken every 24 hours (at bedtime).

So many things to take into account for us and our doctors.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

I'm on sublingual E daily and cycle P one for 10 days/month.  After 3 months of this (January 1-March 1) my E was slightly above the high range at around 285, but that was maybe just under 6 hours after taking my morning dose.

I had follow-up blood work this morning and it was pretty close to just over 6 hours after my morning dose, so I really curious to see what my levels are today.  I added AA a month ago, thus the follow up.



Ok, now the big part.  I shared this article with my GD last week and they shared it with the rest of the Transgender health team and they were all very curious and intrigued.,  They didn't have any particular comments per say, but they were encouraged enough that they are going to look a the research backing this before getting back to me again.  Like me they were pleasantly surprised to hear that the breast cancer risk was not as high as originally thought.  And I think as a result of this article and study, they were encouraged enough to offer me the option to switch to daily P, which I gladly took them up on.  So over the next few months I will see how I feel on it physically and mood/emotionally and we will evaluate then 

The cool part is that today should have been the last day of this month's 10-day cycle (I dod days 1-10 each month to keep it easy), so I won't miss anything this month.

@Myranda

Quote from: Myranda on April 10, 2019, 07:32:52 PM
I have been back on E and P since the beginning of January.  I started back on my AA just over a  month ago.

What I can say is that over the last 4 months, and in particular this last cycle (which ends today (sort of, but more on that later), is that I have noticed at times I tear up a bit easier and more than I  would have otherwise.  Not full on crying or anything, but wet eyes that leak and drip down my cheeks, and maybe the occasional snotting up too.
I'm kind of curious about this myself.    Most if not all HRT regimens have E at a constant dose, and if P is used it is either cycled, usually 10 days on, and 20 days off.  But I was wondering and had mentioned to my GD this morning when we were talking about this article (more comments from the Transgender team later in this post) if there would be any benefit of a constant daily dose during the off cycle days and and increase doe of P to cycle it on.
I'm on sublingual E daily and cycle P one for 10 days/month.  After 3 months of this (January 1-March 1) my E was slightly above the high range at around 285, but that was maybe just under 6 hours after taking my morning dose.

I had follow-up blood work this morning and it was pretty close to just over 6 hours after my morning dose, so I really curious to see what my levels are today.  I added AA a month ago, thus the follow up.



Ok, now the big part.  I shared this article with my GD last week and they shared it with the rest of the Transgender health team and they were all very curious and intrigued.,  They didn't have any particular comments per say, but they were encouraged enough that they are going to look a the research backing this before getting back to me again.  Like me they were pleasantly surprised to hear that the breast cancer risk was not as high as originally thought.  And I think as a result of this article and study, they were encouraged enough to offer me the option to switch to daily P, which I gladly took them up on.  So over the next few months I will see how I feel on it physically and mood/emotionally and we will evaluate then 

The cool part is that today should have been the last day of this month's 10-day cycle (I dod days 1-10 each month to keep it easy), so I won't miss anything this month.

I'm so very happy that this thread as helped even one person, let alone several.
Research and discoveries are what has driven this.  Thankfully science is real.

I will see my endo tomorrow,  He feels that he is the best transgender endo the world has ever seen!  I emailed him all the information quite a while ago, and wonder what he has to say about it, and if he prescribes progesterone for me!

@Dietlind

Quote from: Dietlind on April 10, 2019, 08:12:02 PM
I will see my endo tomorrow,  He feels that he is the best transgender endo the world has ever seen!  I emailed him all the information quite a while ago, and wonder what he has to say about it, and if he prescribes progesterone for me!

Print out a copy, highlighting important parts, ask questions and wait for, but know the answers.

Jess

Hopefully this research (January 2019) will not only help so many Susans Members but also so many doctors and endos worldwide may be prompted to take account and amend their thinking and diagnoses.

Linde

Good luck with the feedback and prescription from your endo.

Hugs

Pamela

I believe I'm remiss in mentioning that my dear friend and sister @Laurie was the origin of this article.  She gave it to me the last time I saw her a while ago.  She deserves the kudos. 

Quote from: Jessica on April 11, 2019, 11:20:31 AM
I believe I'm remiss in mentioning that my dear friend and sister @Laurie was the origin of this article.  She gave it to me the last time I saw her a while ago.  She deserves the kudos.

Thank you Laurie.!

From Kirsten x.

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Quote from: Jessica on April 11, 2019, 11:20:31 AM
I believe I'm remiss in mentioning that my dear friend and sister @Laurie was the origin of this article.  She gave it to me the last time I saw her a while ago.  She deserves the kudos.

thank you @Laurie!

Quote from: Jessica on April 11, 2019, 11:20:31 AM
I believe I'm remiss in mentioning that my dear friend and sister @Laurie was the origin of this article.  She gave it to me the last time I saw her a while ago.  She deserves the kudos.

Thank you Laurie.

Chrissy

Well my visit at my endo ended the way I expected.  It has to be said that he also the leading reproductive health physician in this area.  He did his homework on the paper.  He said, and showed me that the paper is pretty flawed, and important information has been omitted from the citations.  He said, he has the feeling the author was on a mission  for some reason.
He told me that teenage girls are well into their ovulation time (about 2 years after they stat to ovulate) until their body produces progesterone.  He is of the opinion that the breast tissue of the trans woman is pretty different of that of a cis woman, which would make progesterone relatively worthless for trans women.  And that this is also the reason that the WPATH recommends in their standard of care not to give progesterone earlier than at least 2 years of starting on estrogen.  He told me we can talk about this in about 1 1/2 year from now.  Any earlier would just be a waste of money and creating false hope.  He is also of the opinion that, because of our difference in breast tissue, as compared to cis women, mammograms are a waste of money.  He has ye to hear a report that a transgender woman developed breast cancer, and he is treating transgender people since 36 years.
On the positive side, he is happy with my estrogen level, which is, according to him, that of a female on her 10 day of the ovulation period, and he gave me a new script for E for the next 9 months.
He said that we never ever have o measure my T again, because it is currently the highest it ever will be!

Linde, the for ever ovulating transgender woman fueled solely by estrogen! :-*

Quote from: Dietlind on April 11, 2019, 09:01:14 PM
Well my visit at my endo ended the way I expected.  It has to be said that he also the leading reproductive health physician in this area.  He did his homework on the paper.  He said, and showed me that the paper is pretty flawed, and important information has been omitted from the citations.  He said, he has the feeling the author was on a mission  for some reason.
He told me that teenage girls are well into their ovulation time (about 2 years after they stat to ovulate) until their body produces progesterone.  He is of the opinion that the breast tissue of the trans woman is pretty different of that of a cis woman, which would make progesterone relatively worthless for trans women.  And that this is also the reason that the WPATH recommends in their standard of care not to give progesterone earlier than at least 2 years of starting on estrogen.  He told me we can talk about this in about 1 1/2 year from now.  Any earlier would just be a waste of money and creating false hope.  He is also of the opinion that, because of our difference in breast tissue, as compared to cis women, mammograms are a waste of money.  He has ye to hear a report that a transgender woman developed breast cancer, and he is treating transgender people since 36 years.
On the positive side, he is happy with my estrogen level, which is, according to him, that of a female on her 10 day of the ovulation period, and he gave me a new script for E for the next 9 months.
He said that we never ever have o measure my T again, because it is currently the highest it ever will be!

Linde, the for ever ovulating transgender woman fueled solely by estrogen! :-*

Linde,

Thank you for your interesting reporting of what your medical specialist said to you today in regards to progesterone and trans-women's breast tissue composition as compared to cis-women.

It is also interesting knowing of his opinion of mammograms for trans-women.


Chrissy

Quote from: Dietlind on April 11, 2019, 09:01:14 PM
Well my visit at my endo ended the way I expected.  It has to be said that he also the leading reproductive health physician in this area.  He did his homework on the paper.  He said, and showed me that the paper is pretty flawed, and important information has been omitted from the citations.  He said, he has the feeling the author was on a mission  for some reason.
He told me that teenage girls are well into their ovulation time (about 2 years after they stat to ovulate) until their body produces progesterone.  He is of the opinion that the breast tissue of the trans woman is pretty different of that of a cis woman, which would make progesterone relatively worthless for trans women.  And that this is also the reason that the WPATH recommends in their standard of care not to give progesterone earlier than at least 2 years of starting on estrogen.  He told me we can talk about this in about 1 1/2 year from now.  Any earlier would just be a waste of money and creating false hope.  He is also of the opinion that, because of our difference in breast tissue, as compared to cis women, mammograms are a waste of money.  He has ye to hear a report that a transgender woman developed breast cancer, and he is treating transgender people since 36 years.
On the positive side, he is happy with my estrogen level, which is, according to him, that of a female on her 10 day of the ovulation period, and he gave me a new script for E for the next 9 months.
He said that we never ever have o measure my T again, because it is currently the highest it ever will be!

Linde, the for ever ovulating transgender woman fueled solely by estrogen! :-*

I hate to say it but that doctor is a doodlebasher( wanker ). When you say my Endo- why not say my Dr Doodlebasher!

Kirsten x.

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@Dietlind

Quote from: Dietlind on April 11, 2019, 09:01:14 PM
Well my visit at my endo ended the way I expected.  It has to be said that he also the leading reproductive health physician in this area.  He did his homework on the paper.  He said, and showed me that the paper is pretty flawed, and important information has been omitted from the citations.  He said, he has the feeling the author was on a mission  for some reason.
He told me that teenage girls are well into their ovulation time (about 2 years after they stat to ovulate) until their body produces progesterone.  He is of the opinion that the breast tissue of the trans woman is pretty different of that of a cis woman, which would make progesterone relatively worthless for trans women.  And that this is also the reason that the WPATH recommends in their standard of care not to give progesterone earlier than at least 2 years of starting on estrogen.  He told me we can talk about this in about 1 1/2 year from now.  Any earlier would just be a waste of money and creating false hope.  He is also of the opinion that, because of our difference in breast tissue, as compared to cis women, mammograms are a waste of money.  He has ye to hear a report that a transgender woman developed breast cancer, and he is treating transgender people since 36 years.
On the positive side, he is happy with my estrogen level, which is, according to him, that of a female on her 10 day of the ovulation period, and he gave me a new script for E for the next 9 months.
He said that we never ever have o measure my T again, because it is currently the highest it ever will be!

Linde, the for ever ovulating transgender woman fueled solely by estrogen! :-*

Linde, I think this is sound advice.  What your doctor stated is true about when progesterone starts being made in cis-girls is about two years after onset of ovulation.  Estrogen developes the ducts, progesterone developes the formation of secretory glands at the end of the milk ducts.  That I would think begins at about the breast development of Tanner stage 3.

That time scale may be flawed as I've been on Estradiol for more than a year and a half and my breasts are by all accounts at Tanner stage 4 and a "C" cup.  I have been feeling a different type of growth in my breasts since starting Progesterone nearly a month ago.  A deeper ache is what it feels like topped off with the ever present itching that has proven to be the prelude to a growth spurt. 

Hugs, Jess

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 11, 2019, 09:42:33 PM
I hate to say it but that doctor is a doodlebasher( wanker ). When you say my Endo- why not say my Dr Doodlebasher!

Kirsten x.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

He is considered the top person in his field in southern Florida.  Long Newspaper articles, etc. established his credentials.

I would not want to resort to name calling here, i don't agree with him a lot, but he is the one with the pen to write scripts! He is the third endo I am with here, the other two had not much clues about any transgender stuff!

I am happy that he wrote a script for a full 9 month of E for me, this way I will not run out of fuel soon!

 Hopefully he has a lot of first hand experience with transgender patients.


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Quote from: Jessica on April 11, 2019, 09:58:07 PM
@Dietlind

That time scale may be flawed as I've been on Estradiol for more than a year and a half and my breasts are by all accounts at Tanner stage 4 and a "C" cup.  I have been feeling a different type of growth in my breasts since starting Progesterone nearly a month ago.  A deeper ache is what it feels like topped off with the ever present itching that has proven to be the prelude to a growth spurt. 

Hugs, Jess

As we say, YMMV, but in reality, you are still pretty close to the mark he did set for me.  He said that the breast of the trans man prior to that time mostly consists of fatty tissue that hardly reacts to progesterone.  Once milk ducts, etc have developed, progesterone may be a hormone to be considered!
I am just a few month on E, I don't know how much milk ducts are developed in my breasts because of my intersex condition, but I may just have had boob growth all with fatty tissue,  don't know, and have no desire to cut one of my girls open for conformation purposes.

Again, Jess, you are much closer to the two year mark than I am, and he may have made the right decision for me.  he furthermore said, that in his experience from girls with under developed breasts (he is also doing this fertility stuff), to early admission of progesterone may stifle the breast growth and or cause misinformed breasts.
I think he read the paper very careful, and made up his mind about it.
I think Kirsten is wrong to resort to name calling in this instance (as I said I don't really like him, but that is a different story)

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on April 11, 2019, 10:17:26 PM
Hopefully he has a lot of first hand experience with transgender patients.


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He was recommended by two psychologists (among them my super therapist, who can' stand him either), and the endo I saw before him, who recommended him because he did not know much about transgender.

Quote from: Jessica on April 11, 2019, 09:58:07 PM
@Dietlind

Linde, I think this is sound advice.  What your doctor stated is true about when progesterone starts being made in cis-girls is about two years after onset of ovulation.  Estrogen developes the ducts, progesterone developes the formation of secretory glands at the end of the milk ducts.  That I would think begins at about the breast development of Tanner stage 3.

That time scale may be flawed as I've been on Estradiol for more than a year and a half and my breasts are by all accounts at Tanner stage 4 and a "C" cup.  I have been feeling a different type of growth in my breasts since starting Progesterone nearly a month ago.  A deeper ache is what it feels like topped off with the ever present itching that has proven to be the prelude to a growth spurt. 

Hugs, Jess

You must be very happy with that breast growth Jessica. I would be so happy to be Tanner 4 C cup.
I will remain happy if I dont go past B cup though.

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COPIED FROM OTHER PROGESTERONE THREAD: Posted by Laurie March 30th 2019

I will let you read the information yourself. But the ones that interest are the possible cardiovascular possibilities, the possible cancer  risk lessening, and the bone mass help it may give. Since I have experienced cancer 3 times now and am supposed to be dead twice already, I will take any help I can get.  I have emphysema and atherosclerosis so I could use the possible cardio-vascular help. I also have been diagnosed wit osteopenia which is the start of osteoporosis,  so if it helps bone mass density I could use that also.  I hope that answers your question.

Hugs,
  Laurie
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laurie

Jess informed us yesterday that you brought to her attention this very informative scientific evidence of January 2019 and I thank you for that. As you may see on this thread, it has created so much interest and discussion.

Hugs

Pamela 

Linde/Jess/Kirsten

Thank you all for your comments yesterday. It is always wise to consider the other side of any theory and/or discussion. I note that you Jess are 18 months HRT, you Linde are more recent on HRT and you Kirsten are on HRT having been on it and off it previously. I am 14 months HRT and hence we shall all have different timespans of HRT to judge to what extent Progesterone may help us and after how long on Progesterone until we may see such benefits.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 12, 2019, 03:49:12 AM
Linde/Jess/Kirsten

Thank you all for your comments yesterday. It is always wise to consider the other side of any theory and/or discussion. I note that you Jess are 18 months HRT, you Linde are more recent on HRT and you Kirsten are on HRT having been on it and off it previously. I am 14 months HRT and hence we shall all have different timespans of HRT to judge to what extent Progesterone may help us and after how long on Progesterone until we may see such benefits.

Hugs

Pamela

I still have a one month supply of the micronized progesterone cream, I am applying to my breasts.  I will continue to use it, until gone.  I have used it for about a little more than two month so far, I really don't know if it did some good or not.  If anything, all possible effects of it a very small, I think the best effect is, it seems to give me nice and smooth skin!  ;D
I would recommend against wasting ones money on this kind of stuff!  There is better, but cheaper skin care cream out there!

I am four months post op and 16 months on estrogen patches.   I too have shared the information from this tread with my endocrinologist.  I suffer from sleep difficulties and would greatly benefit from the bedtime regime of daily progesterone.  She was very interested and has herself researched the subject to some depth.   She is open to adding progesterone.  My next appointment and blood test is scheduled for May 27.    I have also shared some of the information with my local transgender forum here in Israel.  Thank you so much for this thread!

Quote from: Dorit on April 13, 2019, 12:18:44 PM
I am four months post op and 16 months on estrogen patches.   I too have shared the information from this tread with my endocrinologist.  I suffer from sleep difficulties and would greatly benefit from the bedtime regime of daily progesterone.  She was very interested and has herself researched the subject to some depth.   She is open to adding progesterone.  My next appointment and blood test is scheduled for May 27.    I have also shared some of the information with my local transgender forum here in Israel.  Thank you so much for this thread!

I am not the super good sleeper either, and I mentioned this to my endo, but he said taking progesterone as a sleep medication is really a poor decision! There is better stuff around!
But again you are pretty close to the 2 years mark on estrogen, and he said at that time he would be willing to visit this again.

Quote from: Dietlind on April 11, 2019, 10:20:57 PM
He was recommended by two psychologists (among them my super therapist, who can' stand him either), and the endo I saw before him, who recommended him because he did not know much about transgender.

I shouldnt have bagged your Doctor Linde, must have been the progesterone bringing out the bitch in me(LoL).

The discussion from yourself and Jessica about estrogen- progesterone-and milk duct development was very valuable.!

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I just found another interesting paper on transgender breast development and need for mammograms. I shared that with my endo, but he probably will not admit that he does not know everything.  I wish I could find another one, but he seems to be the only knowledgeable on on the block!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773616/

Quote from: Dietlind on April 13, 2019, 06:56:03 PM
I just found another interesting paper on transgender breast development and need for mammograms. I shared that with my endo, but he probably will not admit that he does not know everything.  I wish I could find another one, but he seems to be the only knowledgeable on on the block!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773616/

Thank you for sharing this article Linde.


Chrissy

Interesting read and research as I have always felt that as Progesterone was essential for cis women a micronised form had to be beneficial for trans women.
My experience with micronised progesterone has been overwhelmingly and entirely  positive.  No side effects other than accelerated and fuller breast development.  My endo in Australia is very supportive of Progesterone and from first hand experience I can see why but as per usual ymmv.
Safe travels


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Quote from: Aisla on April 14, 2019, 01:40:25 AM
Interesting read and research as I have always felt that as Progesterone was essential for cis women a micronised form had to be beneficial for trans women.
My experience with micronised progesterone has been overwhelmingly and entirely  positive.  No side effects other than accelerated and fuller breast development.  My endo in Australia is very supportive of Progesterone and from first hand experience I can see why but as per usual ymmv.
Safe travels


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

For how long are you, or were you on estrogen prior to starting progesterone?

I was on low dosage of oral E for 4.5 years then for the last 3.5 years I have been on full transition E dosages administered by implant.  I started micronised progesterone 2.5 years ago.  My endocrinologist was comfortable with me ceasing Spiro but I chose to maintain the low dose  throughout the 9 years that I have been on hrt.  Spiro will stop prior to my GCS in October.

Quote from: Aisla on April 14, 2019, 08:15:14 AM
I was on low dosage of oral E for 4.5 years then for the last 3.5 years I have been on full transition E dosages administered by implant.  I started micronised progesterone 2.5 years ago.  My endocrinologist was comfortable with me ceasing Spiro but I chose to maintain the low dose  throughout the 9 years that I have been on hrt.  Spiro will stop prior to my GCS in October.

That again would pretty much jive with the idea of my endo, to wait for about 2 years of HRT before giving progesterone.

I had an orchi, and don't need spiro (thank God) anymore!  I really don't know if my orchi will have any influence on the development of my breast tissue.  I have not seen any real changes from it,  except of emotional ones.

@Devlyn


I wonder if being on phytoestrogens for five years (through eating estrogenic foods not the herbs not advised to use here on this board) and showing progress with it can count towards the two years mentioned on E before starting Progesterone.

Maybe Devlyn knows or has used Progesterone also?

Chrissy

So whether or not it's is my normal progression of breast growth with or without progesterone, my bust has increased from 41" to 41 1/2" since starting Progesterone 5 weeks ago.
I also feel like there is what seems like a type of growth inside that appears to be new.  Maybe milk glands.

Jess

I am very pleased for you that these two aspects have happened since you started Progesterone.

I note from your own thread that the bust increase is constant whereas you have also seen fluctuations (rather than constant increase) in areolae size.

Hugs

Pamela   

@pamelatransuk

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 18, 2019, 03:29:08 AM
Jess

I am very pleased for you that these two aspects have happened since you started Progesterone.

I note from your own thread that the bust increase is constant whereas you have also seen fluctuations (rather than constant increase) in areolae size.

Hugs

Pamela

Hi Pam, the flucations in my areolae have been occurring since the 3rd month of hrt.
They did increase from 1 1/4" up to 2".  My nipples and areolae have their own pronounced area and are now raised from the rest with a periodic "Snoopy nose" appearance .  This is what is described as Tanner Stage 4.  Stage five comes after an increase of progesterone.  Stage 5 is not achieved by many transgender women, but that may be because Progesterone has not been prescribed as the norm.  Maybe now that more endocrinologists are understanding it's need and effectiveness we shall see more of this happening.

Hugs and smiles...

Quote from: Jessica on April 18, 2019, 09:09:22 AM
  Maybe now that more endocrinologists are understanding it's need and effectiveness we shall see more of this happening.

Hugs and smiles...

You should make the qualifier and say, except the know it all endo who treats Dietlind!  I am stuck with that guy, because I am in the transgender endo desert here!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 18, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
You should make the qualifier and say, except the know it all endo who treats Dietlind!  I am stuck with that guy, because I am in the transgender endo desert here!

Hi Linde,                         18 April 2019

"I am stuck with that guy, because I am in the transgender endo desert here!"

Solution: MOVE

You have your very own "Hotel & Meals on Wheels" so what's the holdup?

I had my D-Dimer blood draw yesterday and see the Hematologist next Wednesday 24 April to discuss my DVT treatment and where I am along that road. I'd sure like to resume Estradiol and add Progesterone if possible. He mentioned "P" during my first visit. I need to make an appointment with my Endocrinologist as a follow up. Between her, the Hematologist, Dena and me, I hope we can find a safe and satisfactory resolution. Right now I'm stuck in Eunuchville and I don't like it; it's like sitting at a traffic light in a stalled car.

I'm hoping that between the four of us, a safe and workable solution will be found. Dena and I have discussed the DVT issue at length and we both believe the DVT was the result of a long progression of a problem I've had in my left leg for several years that has nothing to do with "E", "T" or anything HRT related.

I hope you find a really good Endo. I can give you the name of mine if you want to head over here to the DFW area. She is very close to DFW Airport.

Take care Linde mis amiga.

Best Always, Love
Christine

In my case, I tried to take it for a while (but myself) , but it didn't work. I was so so dizzy when I took it and I almost fall in the bath taking a shower..  So I stopped it. But I know of other people who have taken, and say that it helped them develop a little more breast. I guess it depends on each case.  ???

I had my orchi about 5 weeks ago , my doctor reduced my estradiol pill form 75% right after the surgery. I did not have to stop it for surgery.

I see her for the first time in a year next Wednesday.

Going to see about switching to patches and adding the progesterone.

When I started hrt with her 23months ago she told me whenever I want progesterone just let her know and she will give it to me.

Until I read thru this very helpful thread it never occurred to me that anyone would have a issue getting a medication like this during transition.

Ive had a great experience with that part of  it seems.

But as far as breast growth maybe a little over A cup only after 2 years. I had a problem with Spiro at the start so have been on estradiol only for the entire time and that may have had something to do with less than desired results or may have had nothing to do with it all.

Pamela I will post all my E & T results for the last two years for your hormone level thread once I get these next results next week, very interested to see where my T levels are after the orchi

Quote from: christinej78 on April 18, 2019, 11:42:47 AM
Hi Linde,                         18 April 2019

"I am stuck with that guy, because I am in the transgender endo desert here!"

Solution: MOVE

You have your very own "Hotel & Meals on Wheels" so what's the holdup?

I had my D-Dimer blood draw yesterday and see the Hematologist next Wednesday 24 April to discuss my DVT treatment and where I am along that road. I'd sure like to resume Estradiol and add Progesterone if possible. He mentioned "P" during my first visit. I need to make an appointment with my Endocrinologist as a follow up. Between her, the Hematologist, Dena and me, I hope we can find a safe and satisfactory resolution. Right now I'm stuck in Eunuchville and I don't like it; it's like sitting at a traffic light in a stalled car.

I'm hoping that between the four of us, a safe and workable solution will be found. Dena and I have discussed the DVT issue at length and we both believe the DVT was the result of a long progression of a problem I've had in my left leg for several years that has nothing to do with "E", "T" or anything HRT related.

I hope you find a really good Endo. I can give you the name of mine if you want to head over here to the DFW area. She is very close to DFW Airport.

Take care Linde mis amiga.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Chris, i can't afford to move.  I bought this house here just 2 years ago.  And living in my meals on wheels thing is not really that great n the long run.  When I live in it for a few months each summer, I am ready to go back to bricks and mortar again!

Tank you for you thoughts about my situation.  I might see if I can sneak into a good endo when I am up north again.

I bet the ladies up there can recommend one for me!

I hope everything will continue to improve for you.  I don' even want to imagine how t must feel not to get any hormones.  It felt bad enough to me when I was on low dose e after my orchi!       

Good luck and Happiness to you!
Linde

Does anyone else find they have really vivid/intense dreams on Progesterone? Especially taken right before bed.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on April 19, 2019, 12:06:28 AM
Does anyone else find they have really vivid/intense dreams on Progesterone? Especially taken right before bed.

This has been the case for me.

I wish good luck and resolution to both Christine and Quinn on seeing your doctors on Wednesday April 24th.

Thank you Quinn for agreeing to post shortly your E&T BT results on my "Comparison after 12/13 Months" thread which does of course incorporate results after all periods of time. I appreciate that.

Happy Easter to all.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on April 19, 2019, 12:06:28 AM
Does anyone else find they have really vivid/intense dreams on Progesterone? Especially taken right before bed.

Yes vivid dreams and remembering them more than normal.

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I already have vivid and intense dreams!   They are usually negative, I was hoping that progesterone would help me sleep deeper.   Oh well. I will see.   I don't start for another month.

I have an appointment in a few days with my endo and was reading up on the micronized progesterone, from what I found there seems to be quite a lot of side effects that are common.
ivid Dreams as some have stated here but also anxiety, panic attacks, feeling drunk or euphoric like symptom, dizzy, brain fog,memory loss.

I really want to add this but I do not want to add any more anxiety to my life with side effects that seems to be so common.

Has anyone here that is already takin progesterone here experienced any of these?

I have experienced nil side effects other than breast growth.

Quote from: Aisla on April 22, 2019, 07:40:47 AM
I have experienced nil side effects other than breast growth.

How do you know hat the breast growth is caused by progesterone and not by estrogen?
Again, my endo is of the opinion that P has no real effect on breast growth unless one is on E for about two years.  That is a bout the time for natal girls to get P after the start of the growth of their breasts.

I had been on E for nearly 6 years prior to starting P and my breasts had stopped growing at year 4.  My very experienced endo had suggested and recommended P to me given the success that many of his clients had had.  My results have been in line with theirs and I understand this is typical for those of us on micronised P.  It was the only change that was made so I think it is safe to say that the addition of P caused the rounding and further growth of my breasts.

Quote from: Aisla on April 22, 2019, 08:35:44 AM
I had been on E for nearly 6 years prior to starting P and my breasts had stopped growing at year 4.  My very experienced endo had suggested and recommended P to me given the success that many of his clients had had.  My results have been in line with theirs and I understand this is typical for those of us on micronised P.  It was the only change that was made so I think it is safe to say that the addition of P caused the rounding and further growth of my breasts.

Thanks for your answer!
After 6 years on E you easily meet the criteria of 2 years set by my endo.  This would be the same biological process that natal females would experience.

In my case, I really don't know for how long my body was exposed to higher levels of estrogen (my breasts started to grow 5 or 6 years ago), but officially I am on the stuff only for almost 6 months now, and can't convince the endo to take the years prior to that into consideration.

Quinn

No side effects after just 37 days on Progesterone other than I am sleeping longer and deeper which I appreciate.

Dorit

I hope like me you gain better sleep when starting Progesterone in May.

Hugs

Pamela

I personally didn't like the neurosteroidal effects that progesterone had. The spacial deviation,... that progesterone caused was not desired in my case. I also did not experience much additional breast growth.

I feel best on just Estradiol. I'm on the patch.

Hi Folks,                        30 April 2019

I visited the Hematologist on the 24th and the Endocrinologist the 25 of April. Another D-Dimer blood draw is scheduled for 15 May and another Hematologist visit 22 May. For sure I won't be on She-mones any time soon. As for Progesterone, the Hematologist is for it and the Endocrinologist said it wouldn't help ME.

I may be able to resume low doses of Estradiol sometime in the future. More testing is in my future. I'd like to rush it but like the warning Dena gave me the night of the accident (17 Jan 19) I no longer take risks like I did that night, I didn't listen to Her and I paid the price.

I no longer drive at night (Cataracts) and I have to sleep with a CPAP machine so I can get decent quality sleep. I have had a tendency to fall asleep while driving. This has been going on for years; fortunately, this was the first accident I had and no one was injured except a tree, my Blazer and my ego. The tree survived, the Blazer is in the junkyard, and the thing that died was my Ego; rightfully and thankfully, Dena now makes the important decisions. Dena is my Guardian Angel and the Love of My Life. I am Blessed.

To all of you on 'P' I wish you smooth sailing and the best results. I hope at some point to be able to join you.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 23, 2019, 03:23:24 AM
Quinn

No side effects after just 37 days on Progesterone other than I am sleeping longer and deeper which I appreciate.

Dorit

I hope like me you gain better sleep when starting Progesterone in May.

Hugs

Pamela

Im at 30 days and like you Pamela sleeping more deeply and longer.

I seem to have more volume in my breasts as well, I think I will go measure again.

Kirsten xx.

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Quote from: pamelatransuk on April 18, 2019, 03:29:08 AM
Jess

I note from your own thread that the bust increase is constant whereas you have also seen fluctuations (rather than constant increase) in areolae size.

Hugs

Pamela

Kirsten

It will be interesting to see in the medium or long term whether we gain constant increase in breast size and either constant increase or fluctuation in areolae size as achieved by Jess.

I suspect that as many women both cis and trans have asymmetry of breasts, then we could have the added problem of asymmetry of areolae.

I am only 45 days on Progesterone and I think I will analyse my position after 90 or 100 days.

Wishing you continued success both on Progesterone and on your transition as a whole.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 01, 2019, 07:02:24 AM


I suspect that as many women both cis and trans have asymmetry of breasts, then we could have the added problem of asymmetry of areolae.

Pamela  xx

My breasts are clearly about 1/2 cup different of each other.  But interestingly, my areolae are very close in size to each other  (~2"), which means breast size and areolae size is not necessarily connected to each other.

I wish I would be as lucky as you are, and would get P prescribed.

Quote from: christinej78 on May 01, 2019, 02:26:48 AM


I no longer drive at night (Cataracts) and
Christine

My dear Christine, you should get this fixed (Medicare pays for it).  I had mine done about 5 years ago, and wish I would have had this simple operation had 50 years ago!  You can see at night better than a cat, once you have the new intraokular lenses!

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 01, 2019, 07:02:24 AM
Kirsten

It will be interesting to see in the medium or long term whether we gain constant increase in breast size and either constant increase or fluctuation in areolae size as achieved by Jess.

I suspect that as many women both cis and trans have asymmetry of breasts, then we could have the added problem of asymmetry of areolae.

I am only 45 days on Progesterone and I think I will analyse my position after 90 or 100 days.

Wishing you continued success both on Progesterone and on your transition as a whole.

Hugs

Pamela  xx

Thank you Pamela. Also best wishes from me as well. Yet to find a downside with P. The sleep is great.

Hugs, Kirsten.

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I haven't posted anything substantial since this:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396). I thought I'd catch up a little.

Last week was my latest labs follow up with my primary doc, who is also handling my HRT. I presented him with some of the reports here, along with the presentation from Dr. William Powers, and he agreed to prescribe both the progesterone pills and the cream. I started taking the pills (as suppositories, as Dr. Powers suggests) two days ago. I just picked up the cream from the local compounding pharmacy today and will do the first application tonight.

I can't give strengths or dosages, 36 grams of the cream, apparently meant to last a month, cost me US$30.00. The instructions, right from Dr. Powers' presentation, are to apply the cream to alternating breasts daily, and to the face once a week. I had to out myself to the pharmacist because she was concerned about applying it to the face. When I reluctantly explained it was for facial feminization because I was trans, she said, "Oh, that makes a lot of sense. We'll have it ready for you to pick up soon."

My current measurements are chest 36 inches, bust 39 inches. I don't know how I would measure facial features, so that'll have to be guesswork, but I'll let you know of any progress on the breasts, or any other effects that I can attribute to the P.


Stephanie

@steph2.0

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 01, 2019, 03:53:08 PM
I haven't posted anything substantial since this:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396). I thought I'd catch up a little.

Last week was my latest labs follow up with my primary doc, who is also handling my HRT. I presented him with some of the reports here, along with the presentation from Dr. William Powers, and he agreed to prescribe both the progesterone pills and the cream. I started taking the pills (as suppositories, as Dr. Powers suggests) two days ago. I just picked up the cream from the local compounding pharmacy today and will do the first application tonight.

I can't give strengths or dosages, 36 grams of the cream, apparently meant to last a month, cost me US$30.00. The instructions, right from Dr. Powers' presentation, are to apply the cream to alternating breasts daily, and to the face once a week. I had to out myself to the pharmacist because she was concerned about applying it to the face. When I reluctantly explained it was for facial feminization because I was trans, she said, "Oh, that makes a lot of sense. We'll have it ready for you to pick up soon."

My current measurements are chest 36 inches, bust 39 inches. I don't know how I would measure facial features, so that'll have to be guesswork, but I'll let you know of any progress on the breasts, or any other effects that I can attribute to the P.


Stephanie

Wow Stephanie, great news about your prescription!
I had not known that progesterone cream would help with facial feminization.
Very, very interesting.

Quote from: Jessica on May 01, 2019, 06:34:20 PM
@steph2.0

Wow Stephanie, great news about your prescription!
I had not known that progesterone cream would help with facial feminization.
Very, very interesting.

That is new to me, too.  Prior to getting my cream, I did a lot of web searching, but could not find any application mentioning the face.
what I found and am doing is application to the breast and the butt.

I do this now for 4 plus weeks, and do not feel that I have any measurable change in my breasts.  I think I wasted money for the cream, and will stop it after this is gone.

I've never heard of Progesterone being used on the face.  Some use it on the hair line and have reported that it has helped with hair growth.

I thought I had read most of Dr. Powers posts and findings.  I missed that one.  I wonder if it helps with fat redistribution to the area.

Quote from: CindyLouFromCO on May 01, 2019, 07:36:11 PM
I've never heard of Progesterone being used on the face.  Some use it on the hair line and have reported that it has helped with hair growth.

I thought I had read most of Dr. Powers posts and findings.  I missed that one.  I wonder if it helps with fat redistribution to the area.

Micronized progesterone ( Prometrium / Utrogestan / Progestogel ) is a powerful DHT-blocker.
Applying it to the face may slow down the hair growth on the face. It also additionally softens the skin, above the softness you already get from E.

Dr Powers Will let's his patients use micronized progesterone rectally to have it function as an anti-androgen through it's antigonadotrophin qualities.

The role of progesterone in fat redistribution is rather unclear currently.
There is evidence to suppose that it helps with maturization of breast tissue and it has mental benefits when taken orally, by breaking down into neurosteroids like allopregnanolone that work on the GABA receptors in the brains and can antidepressant effects and sedative effects. Some people also report a higher sex drive on micronized progesterone.

Progesterone is the building stone for all other main steroidal sex hormones ( testosterone and estradiol ).

Progesterone is also a great way to combat acne.

That could be reasons to apply it to the face.

Currently fat redistribution or feminization of the weak tissues on the face by influence of micronized progesterone is not supported by any scientific source.

Kind regards,
Debby

Quote from: DebbySoufflage on May 01, 2019, 09:37:31 PM
Micronized progesterone ( Prometrium / Utrogestan / Progestogel ) is a powerful DHT-blocker.
Applying it to the face may slow down the hair growth on the face. It also additionally softens the skin, above the softness you already get from E.

Dr Powers Will let's his patients use micronized progesterone rectally to have it function as an anti-androgen through it's antigonadotrophin qualities.

The role of progesterone in fat redistribution is rather unclear currently.
There is evidence to suppose that it helps with maturization of breast tissue and it has mental benefits when taken orally, by breaking down into neurosteroids like allopregnanolone that work on the GABA receptors in the brains and can antidepressant effects and sedative effects. Some people also report a higher sex drive on micronized progesterone.

Progesterone is the building stone for all other main steroidal sex hormones ( testosterone and estradiol ).

Progesterone is also a great way to combat acne.

That could be reasons to apply it to the face.

Currently fat redistribution or feminization of the weak tissues on the face by influence of micronized progesterone is not supported by any scientific source.

Kind regards,
Debby

Oh, I'm a firm supporter of micronized Progesterone.

I take it rectally and sometimes rotate injecting it.

I quit taking AA's over two years ago also because of Progesterone.

I believe all we need is E and MP.

Your reply is a great breakdown of the benefits all in one short post!!  Love this![emoji846]



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Quote from: Jessica on May 01, 2019, 06:34:20 PM
@steph2.0

Wow Stephanie, great news about your prescription!
I had not known that progesterone cream would help with facial feminization.
Very, very interesting.

It was a surprise to me, too. To quote from Dr. Powers' latest presentation:

Quote
Topical Progesterone

I have this compounded for my patients. They apply XXmg to alternating breasts daily and once weekly to the face for adipose redistribution and facial feminization. I've had OVERWHELMINGLY [emphasis his] positive results with this...

I'd never heard of using it on the face before, but he was absolutely correct in the effects of oral versus injectable estradiol in my case, so I've learned to trust him. I'm going to try it, starting tonight. I hope he's right again...


Stephanie

Dr Powers is a saint...

Quote from: DebbySoufflage on May 01, 2019, 09:37:31 PM
Micronized progesterone ( Prometrium / Utrogestan / Progestogel ) is a powerful DHT-blocker.
Applying it to the face may slow down the hair growth on the face. It also additionally softens the skin, above the softness you already get from E.

Dr Powers Will let's his patients use micronized progesterone rectally to have it function as an anti-androgen through it's antigonadotrophin qualities.

The role of progesterone in fat redistribution is rather unclear currently.
There is evidence to suppose that it helps with maturization of breast tissue and it has mental benefits when taken orally, by breaking down into neurosteroids like allopregnanolone that work on the GABA receptors in the brains and can antidepressant effects and sedative effects. Some people also report a higher sex drive on micronized progesterone.

Progesterone is the building stone for all other main steroidal sex hormones ( testosterone and estradiol ).

Progesterone is also a great way to combat acne.

That could be reasons to apply it to the face.

Currently fat redistribution or feminization of the weak tissues on the face by influence of micronized progesterone is not supported by any scientific source.

Kind regards,
Debby

It seems as if all those uses of progesterone are recommended for persons whose bodies still produce measurable quantities of testosterone.
Or did I miss the evidence of possible outcomes of it with people who have no body own testosterone anymore?

I applied the micronized progesterone cream to my cheeks last night, and wished I would not have done it.  My face had an uncomfortable burning sensation for about two hours after this, and I had difficulties to fall asleep because of this sensation (Melatonin did the trick at the end).
Because of this, I would like to warn anybody with sensitive skin to think twice about putting this cream onto your face!

@steph2.0 @Laurie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 01, 2019, 03:53:08 PM
I haven't posted anything substantial since this:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245188.msg2237396#msg2237396). I thought I'd catch up a little.

Last week was my latest labs follow up with my primary doc, who is also handling my HRT. I presented him with some of the reports here, along with the presentation from Dr. William Powers, and he agreed to prescribe both the progesterone pills and the cream. I started taking the pills (as suppositories, as Dr. Powers suggests) two days ago. I just picked up the cream from the local compounding pharmacy today and will do the first application tonight.

I can't give strengths or dosages, 36 grams of the cream, apparently meant to last a month, cost me US$30.00. The instructions, right from Dr. Powers' presentation, are to apply the cream to alternating breasts daily, and to the face once a week. I had to out myself to the pharmacist because she was concerned about applying it to the face. When I reluctantly explained it was for facial feminization because I was trans, she said, "Oh, that makes a lot of sense. We'll have it ready for you to pick up soon."

My current measurements are chest 36 inches, bust 39 inches. I don't know how I would measure facial features, so that'll have to be guesswork, but I'll let you know of any progress on the breasts, or any other effects that I can attribute to the P.


Stephanie

Stephanie, you piqued my interest also with the recommendation of the prometrium taken as a suppository.  I talked to Laurie and she said that is how she used them.  The efficacy is reduced much like estrogen taken orally as it passes through your digestive system and through the liver.

I started this method last night and I'm curious if it will make a clear difference.  Though Laurie mentioned no side effects from doing it this way, that doesn't mean there won't be, positive or negative.

I Had an appointment with my endo last week, it was 6 weeks since my orchi and the reduced estradiol dosage. My estradiol was down to 32. So I was able to double the dose will do lab work in 6 weeks to see where it is and increase again if needed until im at 150.   

   I asked her about the difference and the feminizing effects between pill/shot/sublingual . What she told me is there is a not difference in the feminizing effects between any of the methods. If your blood levels are 150 you will feminize the same no matter how you got to that level. It is all in the overall E in your system.
   Some  methods are easier on the liver if you have other health issues may consider a different approach but because I do not have any health issues in that regard taking the pill form for me at least would be fine.

      Also once my E levels are up to where they should be again she will give me a prescription for progesterone. Im with Kaiser Permanente apparently they only give it for provera covered under insurance but would give me one for promethium if I wanted but would have to pay out of pocket.I have never heard of putting it on your face as a cream until today.

   I know I have heard others say they feminize differently taking estradiol in shot form, what my endo said sounds like it makes sense to me and seems reasonable.

Anyone else have another opinion?

Quote from: Quinn on May 03, 2019, 05:24:24 AM
...... Im with Kaiser Permanente apparently they only give it for provera covered under insurance but would give me one for promethium if I wanted but would have to pay out of pocket.I have never heard of putting it on your face as a cream until today.

Hey Quinn,  I have Kaiser too and worked with the local and national Kaiser team for transgender care.  Some of us have different policies and coverage options and obviously different providers.  My provider has been very accommodating with my treatment needs and I went from cycling progesterone to once daily.  We are all so very different and I have heard anecdotal reports of individuals doing better on each form of estradiol delivery.  Best to you

Hi all, I need some help and understanding of all the experienced progesterone-istas here.

I had to go to my family doc today (he is an internist and happens to also be German), and i took the progesterone research info with me, to show it to him.  He was very interested in this, and told me that he has zero experience in this entire field.  I told him that my endo would not prescribe the stuff to me, and he said why not, with that documentation it just makes sense that you take it.
I am now the proud holder of a prescription for a 90 days supply of Medroxyprogesterone in tablet form to be taken twice a day.
Is that the stuff you take, for the case you take the pills, and how do you take it?  As I said, my doc had no idea about it and trusts me to find the best way for me (fellow German medical persons, as we are).  Would I take those pills sublingual like the estrogen, probably at the same time as the E stuff, or a little time shifted?  Are those the type of pills that give a real good night rest if taken prior to going to bed?  How long before bedtime?

And if I start taking them tonight, will my boobs be double in size by morning?

As you can see, i have questions over questions and need your guiding hand here!

I was hoping to be more buxom than Salma Hayek by now but alas not yet. (LoL)

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on May 06, 2019, 08:07:01 PM
I was hoping to be more buxom than Salma Hayek by now but alas not yet. (LoL)

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It is very hard for me to make a judgement about this, because I don't know Salma Hayek!

Quote from: Dietlind on May 06, 2019, 08:17:41 PM
It is very hard for me to make a judgement about this, because I don't know Salma Hayek!

What! You don't know how to Google?

Quote from: GordonG on May 06, 2019, 08:21:44 PM
What! You don't know how to Google?

My computer is to slow for that, after all, I am an old woman!

Quote from: Dietlind on May 06, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
Hi all, I need some help and understanding of all the experienced progesterone-istas here.

I had to go to my family doc today (he is an internist and happens to also be German), and i took the progesterone research info with me, to show it to him.  He was very interested in this, and told me that he has zero experience in this entire field.  I told him that my endo would not prescribe the stuff to me, and he said why not, with that documentation it just makes sense that you take it.
I am now the proud holder of a prescription for a 90 days supply of Medroxyprogesterone in tablet form to be taken twice a day.
Is that the stuff you take, for the case you take the pills, and how do you take it?  As I said, my doc had no idea about it and trusts me to find the best way for me (fellow German medical persons, as we are).  Would I take those pills sublingual like the estrogen, probably at the same time as the E stuff, or a little time shifted?  Are those the type of pills that give a real good night rest if taken prior to going to bed?  How long before bedtime?

And if I start taking them tonight, will my boobs be double in size by morning?

As you can see, i have questions over questions and need your guiding hand here!

The stuff you was prescribed is the type that has been linked to breast cancer.

You really want micronized Progesterone.

Search the web, read Beverly Cosgroves site and Dr. Powers info.  The article Stephanie posted is based on micronized Progesterone.


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@Dietlind

Quote from: Dietlind on May 06, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
Hi all, I need some help and understanding of all the experienced progesterone-istas here.

I had to go to my family doc today (he is an internist and happens to also be German), and i took the progesterone research info with me, to show it to him.  He was very interested in this, and told me that he has zero experience in this entire field.  I told him that my endo would not prescribe the stuff to me, and he said why not, with that documentation it just makes sense that you take it.
I am now the proud holder of a prescription for a 90 days supply of Medroxyprogesterone in tablet form to be taken twice a day.
Is that the stuff you take, for the case you take the pills, and how do you take it?  As I said, my doc had no idea about it and trusts me to find the best way for me (fellow German medical persons, as we are).  Would I take those pills sublingual like the estrogen, probably at the same time as the E stuff, or a little time shifted?  Are those the type of pills that give a real good night rest if taken prior to going to bed?  How long before bedtime?

And if I start taking them tonight, will my boobs be double in size by morning?

As you can see, i have questions over questions and need your guiding hand here!

In the paper at the beginning of this thread micronized bio-identical Progesterone is suggested.
"Progesterone" refers to the hormone produced in the body, or produced from a plant source but still chemically and structurally identical to human progesterone, and it is therefore referred to as "bioidentical" or "natural".
In contrast, "progestin" refers to a hormone that is synthetically produced and differs in structure from progesterone.

When discussing progesterone, it is important to understand the difference between natural progesterone and the synthetic progesterone analogs called progestins. One of the most common progestins, medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera®), has been linked to blood clots, fluid retention, acne, rashes, weight gain, and depression.

Quote from: CindyLouFromCO on May 06, 2019, 10:43:49 PM

You really want micronized Progesterone.

I have to second that, Linde.

My doctor started me on the medroxyprogesterone after a year on spiro and estradiol.  I didn't ask for the micronized at the time because of relative costs and that I have tolerated every medication I have taken in the past. I did not tolerate the medroxyprogesterone.  I was having depression so stopped taking it daily after 2 months and tried 10 day per month cycling with the last 30 pills. Didn't like that either. She agreed to switch to the micronized last December and I've been taking it since with no issues.

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Quote from: Dietlind on May 06, 2019, 08:17:41 PM
It is very hard for me to make a judgement about this, because I don't know Salma Hayek!

(https://i.imgur.com/t1KFG1Y.jpg)


  Kirsten - See below.

(https://i.imgur.com/8hHXmn3.jpg)




  I feel inadequate. ( LoL ).

   Kirsten x.

Quote from: Dietlind on May 06, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
Hi all, I need some help and understanding of all the experienced progesterone-istas here.

I had to go to my family doc today (he is an internist and happens to also be German), and i took the progesterone research info with me, to show it to him.  He was very interested in this, and told me that he has zero experience in this entire field.  I told him that my endo would not prescribe the stuff to me, and he said why not, with that documentation it just makes sense that you take it.
I am now the proud holder of a prescription for a 90 days supply of Medroxyprogesterone in tablet form to be taken twice a day.
Is that the stuff you take, for the case you take the pills, and how do you take it?  As I said, my doc had no idea about it and trusts me to find the best way for me (fellow German medical persons, as we are).  Would I take those pills sublingual like the estrogen, probably at the same time as the E stuff, or a little time shifted?  Are those the type of pills that give a real good night rest if taken prior to going to bed?  How long before bedtime?

And if I start taking them tonight, will my boobs be double in size by morning?

As you can see, i have questions over questions and need your guiding hand here!

A prescription for Besins micronised progesterone, " Prometrium " should be readily available with a prescription.

That is what I take every night just before bed. It does seem to have a sleep promoting effect.

It is the bio-identical type.

Kind regards, Kirsten.

As I said, my doc did not know about he stuff,  looked into the Merk register, and prescribed what he found.

Would it be critical or really bad to use the current supply for 90 days up, and after that switch?  I am pretty sure he will prescribe the other version, too.  But I don't think that my health insurance would to agree to an immediate switch!
What would you do, use the 90 days, or tell the doc after a week or two that I have bad reactions, and hope the insurance plays along?

I was so glad to finally get this prescription for the stuff!

My new avatar shows what it did to me just by looking at the pills!

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on May 06, 2019, 11:14:16 PM


(https://i.imgur.com/t1KFG1Y.jpg)

Progesterone did that?   ;)

  I get very concerned when I read here of sisters being proscribed medroxyprogesterone. Medroxyprogesterone is a PROGESTIN ie it is synthetic progesterone NOT bio-identical micronized progesterone. Many of doctors objections and fears come from a study of 2 hormones in menopausable women that showed a significant increase in DVT (blood clots) and possibly strokes/heart attacks. These two hormones that given together in the study (Premarin (an equine derived estrogen)) and (Provera (medroxyprogesterone))  is what caused the doctor's fear of blood clots if they proscribed it to us. Not only is the an old study that does NOT apply to the use of bio_identical estradiol or bio-identical progesterone (Prometrium), it lists several health problems that do not apply to the bio-identical hormones we are discussing here. If you read the paper it lists 6 possible benefits micronized progesterone could have for transgender women.
  Doctors should not be prescribing premarin or provera for us. Both are the cause of their fears. Always insist on the bio-identical hormones.

Quote from: Laurie on May 08, 2019, 12:34:33 AM
  I get very concerned when I read here of sisters being proscribed medroxyprogesterone. Medroxyprogesterone is a PROGESTIN ie it is synthetic progesterone NOT bio-identical micronized progesterone. Many of doctors objections and fears come from a study of 2 hormones in menopausable women that showed a significant increase in DVT (blood clots) and possibly strokes/heart attacks. These two hormones that given together in the study (Premarin (an equine derived estrogen)) and (Provera (medroxyprogesterone))  is what caused the doctor's fear of blood clots if they proscribed it to us. Not only is the an old study that does NOT apply to the use of bio_identical estradiol or bio-identical progesterone (Prometrium), it lists several health problems that do not apply to the bio-identical hormones we are discussing here. If you read the paper it lists 6 possible benefits micronized progesterone could have for transgender women.
  Doctors should not be prescribing premarin or provera for us. Both are the cause of their fears. Always insist on the bio-identical hormones.

Thanks Laurie
As I said, my doc does not know anything about hormones, specifically not with trans people.  He trusts me to handle this right, and gather all information I can get.  He looked into the Merk Register and that is what he found!

Do you feel that this stuff is so critical that I should stopp it immediately, or can I use the 90 days supply up, and switch thereafter to a micronized version?
To be honest, I am pretty excited that I finally could put my paws onto progesterone, because my endo does not believe in any benefits, not even the studies convinced him.  I am stuck pretty much in the non mans land of endos, and have o go with what I can get.

Again, if anybody feels I should stop the stuff immediately, I will do so!

Quote from: Dietlind on May 08, 2019, 01:33:32 AM
Thanks Laurie
As I said, my doc does not know anything about hormones, specifically not with trans people.  He trusts me to handle this right, and gather all information I can get.  He looked into the Merk Register and that is what he found!

Do you feel that this stuff is so critical that I should stopp it immediately, or can I use the 90 days supply up, and switch thereafter to a micronized version?
To be honest, I am pretty excited that I finally could put my paws onto progesterone, because my endo does not believe in any benefits, not even the studies convinced him.  I am stuck pretty much in the non mans land of endos, and have o go with what I can get.

Again, if anybody feels I should stop the stuff immediately, I will do so!

Hey Linde

90 days on the medroxyprogesterone won't kill you, but it also probably won't help much either. It's also 90 days you won't be taking the bioidentical progesterone. 
That the two are prescribed for the same thing might set off a flag for insurance coverage,  but being different drugs probably not.  If it is denied you should be able to get around it by claiming adverse reaction to the medroxyprogesterone.

Its YMMV of course, but it did not work out for me and I don't recall anyone telling me good things about medroxyprogesterone when I asked around here after I started taking it.

Was a time when Premarin and Provera were the only thing available so that what trans women (and quite a few post menopausal women) took.  There's better stuff now, the work better  and fewer side effects.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Jess

I am delighted to read from your own thread that you are now seeing areolae increase.


Jess/Kirsten/Linde

It will be interesting to compare our first Blood Test readings for Progesterone in due course. Don't worry I have already checked that the method of conversion from US to Intl and vice versa which is precisely the same as that for Estradiol!

Hugs

Pamela 

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 08, 2019, 07:41:40 AM
Jess

I am delighted to read from your own thread that you are now seeing areolae increase.


Jess/Kirsten/Linde

It will be interesting to compare our first Blood Test readings for Progesterone in due course. Don't worry I have already checked that the method of conversion from US to Intl and vice versa which is precisely the same as that for Estradiol!

Hugs

Pamela

My next blood test is planned for October.  That would be about one year on estrogen for me.

Thank you for this thread. Me and my girlfriend are going to see our endo tomorrow and we'll bring a printed copy of the study. We hope it will works so we have it prescribed. [emoji4](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190508/8a97db4544ffd4d3345fe13a42f12d65.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190508/c27c63dece1c391355c7c1eb1e660b0f.jpg)

Both of these comments need to be seen again they should clear up any misunderstandings.

Quote from: Laurie on May 08, 2019, 12:34:33 AM
  I get very concerned when I read here of sisters being proscribed medroxyprogesterone. Medroxyprogesterone is a PROGESTIN ie it is synthetic progesterone NOT bio-identical micronized progesterone. Many of doctors objections and fears come from a study of 2 hormones in menopausable women that showed a significant increase in DVT (blood clots) and possibly strokes/heart attacks. These two hormones that given together in the study (Premarin (an equine derived estrogen)) and (Provera (medroxyprogesterone))  is what caused the doctor's fear of blood clots if they proscribed it to us. Not only is the an old study that does NOT apply to the use of bio_identical estradiol or bio-identical progesterone (Prometrium), it lists several health problems that do not apply to the bio-identical hormones we are discussing here. If you read the paper it lists 6 possible benefits micronized progesterone could have for transgender women.
  Doctors should not be prescribing premarin or provera for us. Both are the cause of their fears. Always insist on the bio-identical hormones.

QuoteIn the paper at the beginning of this thread micronized bio-identical Progesterone is suggested.
"Progesterone" refers to the hormone produced in the body, or produced from a plant source but still chemically and structurally identical to human progesterone, and it is therefore referred to as "bioidentical" or "natural".
In contrast, "progestin" refers to a hormone that is synthetically produced and differs in structure from progesterone.

When discussing progesterone, it is important to understand the difference between natural progesterone and the synthetic progesterone analogs called progestins. One of the most common progestins, medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera®), has been linked to blood clots, fluid retention, acne, rashes, weight gain, and depression.

FWIW, this is included in a trans care guide, from the Sherbourne Health clinic in Toronto.

QuoteProgestins

With the exception of cyproterone, the use of progestins in  trans  women  continues  to  be  controversial.  There  has  not  been  a  clear  feminizing  benefit  shown  with  the use   of   progestins, although   some   individuals   and some  clinicians  feel  it  has  been  a  useful  adjunctive medication.  Progestins have a suppressive effect on LH, thus decreasing androgen production.  It is used by some clinicians  for  clients  experiencing  decreased  libido  and  may have a positive or negative impact on mood.  The common side effects associated with progestins are weight gain, depression, and edema.  The Women's Health
Initiative has examined serious long-term outcomes with combined  estrogen  and  progestin  in  post-menopausal  women.  The 2007 updates support the original findings, which   were   increased   incidence   of   breast   cancer, increased  strokes  and  blood  clots,  and  increased  heart disease.  These  same  outcomes  were  not  found  to  the same  extent  with  estrogen  alone.  These  risks  may  be higher  with edroxyprogesterone  than  with  micronized progesterone.  In   addition,   the   latter   may   be   better   
tolerated and have a more favourable impact on the lipid profile than medroxyprogesterone.

If used, the common doses of progestins are micronized progesterone xxx-yyy mg daily; or medroxyprogesterone acetate  xxx-yyy mg  daily.  Some  clinicians  advise  limiting progestin   treatment   duration   to   a   maximum   of   two to  three  years  Because  it  is  not  part  of  our  regular 
protocol, if a progestin is being considered, some of our clinicians  will  have  the  client  sign  an  additional  consent form  acknowledging  that  they  specifically  understand the  increased  risks  and  lack  of  established  benefit.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 08, 2019, 07:41:40 AM
Jess

I am delighted to read from your own thread that you are now seeing areolae increase.


Jess/Kirsten/Linde

It will be interesting to compare our first Blood Test readings for Progesterone in due course. Don't worry I have already checked that the method of conversion from US to Intl and vice versa which is precisely the same as that for Estradiol!

Hugs

Pamela

Yes P readings would be an interesting comparison Pamela. Also method of administration vs levels could be interesting as well.

Kind regards,  Kirsten.

Quote from: AnneK on May 08, 2019, 11:20:20 AM
FWIW, this is included in a trans care guide, from the Sherbourne Health clinic in Toronto.

Hi AnneK,

Since the report came out in 2015, I wonder if their thinking on this has changed.

Take care,
Paige 😊

Quote from: Paige on May 09, 2019, 02:10:50 PM
Since the report came out in 2015, I wonder if their thinking on this has changed.

Well, it's still on their website, so I assume they still stand by it.

Quote from: AnneK on May 09, 2019, 02:14:21 PM
Well, it's still on their website, so I assume they still stand by it.

Probably, but they've been swamped with demand for services for sometime now, so maybe they haven't had the time to update it.   I wonder if they may be more accepting of micronized progesterone therapy now. In 2015 it was still a pretty new idea to most medical professionals.  You wouldn't find many endocrinologists prescribing it.

Quote from: Paige on May 09, 2019, 02:10:50 PM
Hi AnneK,

Since the report came out in 2015, I wonder if their thinking on this has changed.

Take care,
Paige 😊

The evidence for progestins not having any effect in transwomen is low quality and sparse so we really don't know. This has been confirmed by researchers in a recent paper. At this point, the lack of any strong evidence in either direction prevents us from drawing any conclusions at all.

Secondly, the risks found with progestins such as medroxyprogesterone acetate cannot be extrapolated to progesterone, a different molecule. So far, studies have not found the same risks associated with progesterone, the naturally occurring substance in humans. 

I'm not certain if this change is due to progesterone, but shortly after starting it, I noticed that my breasts radiated a lot of heat.  My wife says I have hot hands and when I cup them, I feel the fire from my boobs. 
Any other ladies experience this?

I n't feel any definitive effect from progesterone, but I can't put my hands on any clear effect from estrogen either.  Nothing has really changed for me from either hormone!
My boobs don't grow any faster than they used to prior to HRT, and that would be the only parameter i can measure, because body hair that is not there can't go away.

Quote from: Jessica on May 18, 2019, 10:24:01 PM
I'm not certain if this change is due to progesterone, but shortly after starting it, I noticed that my breasts radiated a lot of heat.  My wife says I have hot hands and when I cup them, I feel the fire from my boobs. 
Any other ladies experience this?

Hi Jessica,
                    I wonder if you have noticed any change in the veins in your breasts. ie increased circulation/ increased heat.

I personally noticed a development of veins when I was on an E and AA only. As I grew to B cup there was extra heat as well.

With regards to progesterone I think I see what looks like water retention all over including breasts, but no heat or extra development after a month of P.

I believe you have had some significant growth on P, I hope to experience the same.

Kind regards, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

@Kirsteneklund7

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on May 19, 2019, 02:49:58 AM
Hi Jessica,
                    I wonder if you have noticed any change in the veins in your breasts. ie increased circulation/ increased heat.

I personally noticed a development of veins when I was on an E and AA only. As I grew to B cup there was extra heat as well.

With regards to progesterone I think I see what looks like water retention all over including breasts, but no heat or extra development after a month of P.

I believe you have had some significant growth on P, I hope to experience the same.

Kind regards, Kirsten.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Kirsten, I am fairly sure that new vessels were developed since starting P and that increased blood flow certainly would make Lucy and Rhonda warmer.  I have been lucky in that E did wonders for them also.  Still thanking mom for her genes.

Hot hugs, Jess

Quote from: Jessica on May 19, 2019, 09:06:11 AM
  I have been lucky in that E did wonders for them also.  Still thanking mom for her genes.

Hot hugs, Jess

You are so lucky.  Here I sit with the my B cups forever (it feels like it), and neither cutting my balls off, nor all the estrogen and progesterone seem to make any difference.  They seem to want to remain B's!

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 11:24:11 AM
You are so lucky.  Here I sit with the my B cups forever (it feels like it), and neither cutting my balls off, nor all the estrogen and progesterone seem to make any difference.  They seem to want to remain B's!

Linde,

Sometimes I think about what breast size and if it matters a lot or not, at least after you finally have noticeable breasts.  In the end, it is a personal preference.  No matter what the size of our breasts are, we are still are women, many whom are thoughtful and feminine in thinking and to differing degrees in appearance. 

I sometimes wonder if my occasional thought of having larger breasts is really manifested from a desire to be warmly accepted as a woman by all, as by having breasts, well, that is part of being a woman, why should not I be accepted by all?   But in the end, that is faulty, incomplete thinking.  Acceptance is about much more than that.  And some acceptance may never occur, it is beyond our control.

But breasts are part of being a woman, and I like mine, they are affirming. It is nice to have a more feminine body over time, that makes me feel so good. I ask myself why I was not born with the right body actually much more often than would it be nice than if I had bigger breasts.  If I was born with the right body then nature would have given me the body I should have developed naturally and I would have had the opportunity to fit in naturally in society all my life.  I am a misfit of sorts now! 

If I ever grow beyond Bs that will be interesting for sure but I try to simply be grateful with what I have, and take each day as it comes.  I do admit that I have tried to make my breasts look bigger and sometimes the look is appealing in some outfits.  But as they now are, they are noticeable.  So I am thankful for that.

Have a wonderful day.

Hugs,

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 19, 2019, 02:52:19 PM
Linde,

Sometimes I think about what breast size and if it matters a lot or not, at least after you finally have noticeable breasts.  In the end, it is a personal preference.  No matter what the size of our breasts are, we are still are women, many whom are thoughtful and feminine in thinking and to differing degrees in appearance. 

I sometimes wonder if my occasional thought of having larger breasts is really manifested from a desire to be warmly accepted as a woman by all, as by having breasts, well, that is part of being a woman, why should not I be accepted by all?   But in the end, that is faulty, incomplete thinking.  Acceptance is about much more than that.  And some acceptance may never occur, it is beyond our control.

But breasts are part of being a woman, and I like mine, they are affirming. It is nice to have a more feminine body over time, that makes me feel so good. I ask myself why I was not born with the right body actually much more often than would it be nice than if I had bigger breasts.  If I was born with the right body then nature would have given me the body I should have developed naturally and I would have had the opportunity to fit in naturally in society all my life.  I am a misfit of sorts now! 

If I ever grow beyond Bs that will be interesting for sure but I try to simply be grateful with what I have, and take each day as it comes.  I do admit that I have tried to make my breasts look bigger and sometimes the look is appealing in some outfits.  But as they now are, they are noticeable.  So I am thankful for that.

Have a wonderful day.

Hugs,

Chrissy

Well Chrissy, I was partially born with the right body that was made wrong surgically, but kind of stayed very female like.  And my breasts were kind of a B already long before I started, or even know about HRT.  I was hoping that starting HRT would give those babies a little boost (my mother and my sister were at least a D), and make a C out of them.  That seems not to work that way, even not after the orchi.  My boobs are the only parameter I have to measure the effect of estrogen on my body (because I had no secondary male sex characteristics), and those girls did not grow any faster than they did prior to HRT.
I am accepted in my environment, and I have the feeling that most of my friends forget that I am not a cis woman, because I have to remind them once in a while that my body functions a little different than theirs, but that is it.
Yes, I feel OK with my B sized breasts, because they are mine, all home grown, but I would not mind to have C cups, because some clothing looks, as you said, simply better with a little more fill in the front.

I will see how it goes, I never ever even dream about of any implants that is simply not me!

I wish you good luck for a growth spurt of your girls, and stand by to hope for mine!
Hugs
Linde

OK, here I am on progesterone for a little while now.  I really see no influence on my boobs, I don't sleep any better than I did without it.  The only thing I think that has improved, is my level of energy.  I was pretty lethargy (some would call it lazy) for the last couple of months, and now I feel like doing things again (like working in the yard, etc.)  Could this be the result of progesterone?  Or is it because I emerge from some kind of depression that made me lethargic?  I hope very much that progesterone is doing this?

What do you ladies think?

@Linde

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
OK, here I am on progesterone for a little while now.  I really see no influence on my boobs, I don't sleep any better than I did without it.  The only thing I think that has improved, is my level of energy.  I was pretty lethargy (some would call it lazy) for the last couple of months, and now I feel like doing things again (like working in the yard, etc.)  Could this be the result of progesterone?  Or is it because I emerge from some kind of depression that made me lethargic?  I hope very much that progesterone is doing this?

What do you ladies think?

Linde, are you taking medroxyprogesterone or had you been able to switch to bio-identical Progesterone.  If you are still taking medroxyprogesterone, your experiences have no real correlation to the experiences of those on the bio-identical Progesterone. 
If this is the case, please make it clear to your doctor that prescribed medroxyprogesterone, with evidence herein that you need bio-identical progesterone instead.

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 03:09:37 PM
Well Chrissy, I was partially born with the right body that was made wrong surgically, but kind of stayed very female like.  And my breasts were kind of a B already long before I started, or even know about HRT.  I was hoping that starting HRT would give those babies a little boost (my mother and my sister were at least a D), and make a C out of them.  That seems not to work that way, even not after the orchi.  My boobs are the only parameter I have to measure the effect of estrogen on my body (because I had no secondary male sex characteristics), and those girls did not grow any faster than they did prior to HRT.
I am accepted in my environment, and I have the feeling that most of my friends forget that I am not a cis woman, because I have to remind them once in a while that my body functions a little different than theirs, but that is it.
Yes, I feel OK with my B sized breasts, because they are mine, all home grown, but I would not mind to have C cups, because some clothing looks, as you said, simply better with a little more fill in the front.

I will see how it goes, I never ever even dream about of any implants that is simply not me!

I wish you good luck for a growth spurt of your girls, and stand by to hope for mine!
Hugs
Linde

Thanks Linde!

Chrissy

Quote from: Jessica on May 19, 2019, 03:31:50 PM
@Linde

Linde, are you taking medroxyprogesterone or had you been able to switch to bio-identical Progesterone.  If you are still taking medroxyprogesterone, your experiences have no real correlation to the experiences of those on the bio-identical Progesterone. 
If this is the case, please make it clear to your doctor that prescribed medroxyprogesterone, with evidence herein that you need bio-identical progesterone instead.

I am still on medroxyprogesterone, I thought I use the dosing up, and when I need a renewal, I have to explain to my family doctor what he should prescribe.  He was so nice to prescribe the stuff at all, and told me he has no idea about hormones.  He is operating on my feedback.
I wanted to give the medroxyprogesterone a trial to see if it does anything, it seems to not be doing much.  But I also have to point out that estrogen seems not to do much to me either.  I read in some specific intersex forums that people like I are not responding to any hormones very well.
I know that my body needs estrogen, because I don't produce any measurable amounts of testosterone, and I need some kind of "fuel".

I finally got a chance to measure Lucy and Rhonda today.  Since I started Progesterone, two months ago, my bust dimension has increased an inch in total and are definitely rounder.  My nipples are protruding 1/4" from a well defined areolae, which since starting hrt has increased from 1 1/4" to 2 1/4".
Still not sure if it's the Progesterone or not though.  I've had decent development since starting hrt nearly two years ago.

Quote from: Jessica on May 19, 2019, 04:35:18 PM
I finally got a chance to measure Lucy and Rhonda today.  Since I started Progesterone, two months ago, my bust dimension has increased an inch in total and are definitely rounder.  My nipples are protruding 1/4" from a well defined areolae, which since starting hrt has increased from 1 1/4" to 2 1/4".
Still not sure if it's the Progesterone or not though.  I've had decent development since starting hrt nearly two years ago.

:)  :)

That is something nice to happen for a nice person!  I do enjoy your postings Jessica.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 19, 2019, 04:39:37 PM

:)  :)

That is something nice to happen for a nice person!  I do enjoy your postings Jessica.

Chrissy

Thank you Chrissy! 🌸🌸🌸

Quote from: Jessica on May 19, 2019, 04:35:18 PM
I finally got a chance to measure Lucy and Rhonda today.  Since I started Progesterone, two months ago, my bust dimension has increased an inch in total and are definitely rounder.  My nipples are protruding 1/4" from a well defined areolae, which since starting hrt has increased from 1 1/4" to 2 1/4".
Still not sure if it's the Progesterone or not though.  I've had decent development since starting hrt nearly two years ago.

Reading and trying to understand all that Tanner stuff for breast sizes, I am not sure if I am Tanner III  (• Stage III - The breasts and areolae continue to enlarge, although they show no separation of contour.),

or Tanner V (Stage V - Mature female breasts have developed. The papillae may extend slightly above the contour of the breasts as the result of the recession of the aerolae.)

My areolae are a little over 2" diameter, but they do not protrude above the remaining breast to create a secondary mount (as in Tanner iV).  My nipples (papillae) extend about 1/4" above the areolae, and also have an approx diameter of 1/4".

How on earth would one interpret these explanations?  If I am Tanner V, I might be at the end of any breast growth, and have to settle for my cute little B size!  But who really knows?

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 07:38:48 PM
Reading and trying to understand all that Tanner stuff for breast sizes, I am not sure if I am Tanner III  (• Stage III - The breasts and areolae continue to enlarge, although they show no separation of contour.),

or Tanner V (Stage V - Mature female breasts have developed. The papillae may extend slightly above the contour of the breasts as the result of the recession of the aerolae.)

My areolae are a little over 2" diameter, but they do not protrude above the remaining breast to create a secondary mount (as in Tanner iV).  My nipples (papillae) extend about 1/4" above the areolae, and also have an approx diameter of 1/4".

How on earth would one interpret these explanations?  If I am Tanner V, I might be at the end of any breast growth, and have to settle for my cute little B size!  But who really knows?

I believe I've reached a Tanner iV, but I've read that Tanner V can only be achieved through pregnancy.  As much as I wish that could be true for me, alas it won't.

If that is true with tanner V, I would be somewhere around Tanner III and Tanner IV,  My areolae elevate above the remaining breast tissue, If I stimulate them.

However, what would be with the women who have D and Dd or even E cup size breasts and have not been pregnant?

I slowly come to the conclusion that that tanner guy must have been a weather forecaster in his live before this breast size stuf!

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 08:16:09 PM
If that is true with tanner V, I would be somewhere around Tanner III and Tanner IV,  My areolae elevate above the remaining breast tissue, If I stimulate them.

However, what would be with the women who have D and Dd or even E cup size breasts and have not been pregnant?

I slowly come to the conclusion hat that tanner guy must have been a weather forecaster in his live before this breast size stuf!

Size has nothing to do with a mature breast.  There are plenty of mothers with small and large breasts.  It's a lot to do with genetics.

I started oral progesterone on 4/22/19, and progesterone cream on 5/1/19, applied to alternating breasts daily, and to my face once a week.

My breast growth had seemed to stall at what I'd call 36 "A and a half." My chest size was 36" and my bust size was 38 1/2 to 39". I had finally filled an A cup and had graduated to a B cup with room in it.

This week I noticed there's no more room in the B cup, so I took another measurement. 36 chest and 40 bust.

As for my face, I goop up before bed, and in the morning I notice that a lot of the lines in my face seem to be smoothed out. It doesn't last, though, and I'm not convinced that it's not just the cream moisturizing my skin.

In both cases I have no idea whether the P had anything to do with it. I just put it out there as information, and you can draw your own conclusions. Whatever the case, I'm just glad for the breast growth!


Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 19, 2019, 08:41:51 PM
I started oral progesterone on 4/22/19, and progesterone cream on 5/1/19, applied to alternating breasts daily, and to my face once a week.

My breast growth had seemed to stall at what I'd call 36 "A and a half." My chest size was 36" and my bust size was 38 1/2 to 39". I had finally filled an A cup and had graduated to a B cup with room in it.

This week I noticed there's no more room in the B cup, so I took another measurement. 36 chest and 40 bust.

As for my face, I goop up before bed, and in the morning I notice that a lot of the lines in my face seem to be smoothed out. It doesn't last, though, and I'm not convinced that it's not just the cream moisturizing my skin.

In both cases I have no idea whether the P had anything to do with it. I just put it out there as information, and you can draw your own conclusions. Whatever the case, I'm just glad for the breast growth!


Stephanie

Wow!  That is a growth spurt.  That is wonderful news Stephanie!   :)

Chrissy

@steph2.0

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 19, 2019, 08:41:51 PM
I started oral progesterone on 4/22/19, and progesterone cream on 5/1/19, applied to alternating breasts daily, and to my face once a week.

My breast growth had seemed to stall at what I'd call 36 "A and a half." My chest size was 36" and my bust size was 38 1/2 to 39". I had finally filled an A cup and had graduated to a B cup with room in it.

This week I noticed there's no more room in the B cup, so I took another measurement. 36 chest and 40 bust.

As for my face, I goop up before bed, and in the morning I notice that a lot of the lines in my face seem to be smoothed out. It doesn't last, though, and I'm not convinced that it's not just the cream moisturizing my skin.

In both cases I have no idea whether the P had anything to do with it. I just put it out there as information, and you can draw your own conclusions. Whatever the case, I'm just glad for the breast growth!


Stephanie

Congratulations Stephanie!

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 19, 2019, 08:41:51 PM
I started oral progesterone on 4/22/19, and progesterone cream on 5/1/19, applied to alternating breasts daily, and to my face once a week.

Stephanie

Is this the cream you buy OTC at Amazon and similar places?

I used the cream I got through Amazon for 3 months on my breasts (with one week of break every month).  I stopped using it because I could not identify any changes.  And because of this I stopped using it.

Quote from: Linde on May 19, 2019, 10:50:22 PM
Is this the cream you buy OTC at Amazon and similar places?

I used the cream I got through Amazon for 3 months on my breasts (with one week of break every month).  I stopped using it because I could not identify any changes.  And because of this I stopped using it.

No, this is prescription strength cream that I have made up at a compounding pharmacy. I can't tell you the strength or dosage here, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot stronger than you can buy OTC.


Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 19, 2019, 10:58:33 PM
No, this is prescription strength cream that I have made up at a compounding pharmacy. I can't tell you the strength or dosage here, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot stronger than you can buy OTC.


Stephanie

Tanks, it would not help anyway, cause I have no prescription for it.  Do you feel that it does something for you?

Congratulations Jess and Stephanie on your latest growth to which you refer - breasts and nipples and areolae.

Hugs

Pamela   

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 19, 2019, 02:52:19 PM
Linde,

Sometimes I think about what breast size and if it matters a lot or not, at least after you finally have noticeable breasts.  In the end, it is a personal preference.  No matter what the size of our breasts are, we are still are women, many whom are thoughtful and feminine in thinking and to differing degrees in appearance. 

I sometimes wonder if my occasional thought of having larger breasts is really manifested from a desire to be warmly accepted as a woman by all, as by having breasts, well, that is part of being a woman, why should not I be accepted by all?   But in the end, that is faulty, incomplete thinking.  Acceptance is about much more than that.  And some acceptance may never occur, it is beyond our control.

But breasts are part of being a woman, and I like mine, they are affirming. It is nice to have a more feminine body over time, that makes me feel so good. I ask myself why I was not born with the right body actually much more often than would it be nice than if I had bigger breasts.  If I was born with the right body then nature would have given me the body I should have developed naturally and I would have had the opportunity to fit in naturally in society all my life.  I am a misfit of sorts now! 

If I ever grow beyond Bs that will be interesting for sure but I try to simply be grateful with what I have, and take each day as it comes.  I do admit that I have tried to make my breasts look bigger and sometimes the look is appealing in some outfits.  But as they now are, they are noticeable.  So I am thankful for that.

Have a wonderful day.

Hugs,

Chrissy

Hello again Chrissy

I agree with your thoughts above; we are still women irrespective of breast size and breast size is matter of personal preference.

As you know I am 15 months on HRT as a whole and just like Jess 2 months on Progesterone. I shall wait till 2020 to determine if I need to improve my situation by BA.

I wish you every success in achieving further breast growth.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
Tanks, it would not help anyway, cause I have no prescription for it.  Do you feel that it does something for you?

Shrug [emoji2372]. I refer back to my post. I have a little growth, but being scientifically-minded, I can't attribute it to the P without more information. It could just be a natural growth spurt, though it's coincidental that it's happening now, after a month on P.


- Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 20, 2019, 06:35:18 AM
Shrug [emoji2372]. I refer back to my post. I have a little growth, but being scientifically-minded, I can't attribute it to the P without more information. It could just be a natural growth spurt, though it's coincidental that it's happening now, after a month on P.


- Stephanie

That is the stupid thing with this breast growth stuff, one has nothing to hang a baseline up on.
I don' even know if estrogen did anything for my breast growth.  I came into the entire HRT situation already equipped with decent sized breasts, and had a little growth, but I don't know if this is caused by estrogen, or if it is just a continuation of my "normal" breast growth (I was told by my endo that I am in the process of finishing puberty)

My next appointment with my Endo is coming up soon. I am armed with info about progesterone. It's tough getting Kaiser to give in and allow it. Not enough info pro or con yet. My girls could certainly use a boost. All I can do is plead my case.

I will say that most of my breast growth has happened during the past 4 months when they finally up my E dose to a decent level. I can't say the first 17 months were a waist because of obvious health concerns but....

Quote from: Donica on May 20, 2019, 08:34:16 AM
My next appointment with my Endo is coming up soon. I am armed with info about progesterone. It's tough getting Kaiser to give in and allow it. Not enough info pro or con yet. My girls could certainly use a boost. All I can do is plead my case.

I will say that most of my breast growth has happened during the past 4 months when they finally up my E dose to a decent level. I can't say the first 17 months were a waist because of obvious health concerns but....

I have Kaiser in Northern California.  My endo was resistant to prescribing progesterone until I showed him the article that he should have already read.  He prescribed it straight away. 

Quote from: Jessica on May 18, 2019, 10:24:01 PM
I'm not certain if this change is due to progesterone, but shortly after starting it, I noticed that my breasts radiated a lot of heat.  My wife says I have hot hands and when I cup them, I feel the fire from my boobs. 
Any other ladies experience this?

I haven't noticed any heat like you described, but I did notice that about 2 weeks into starting daily progesterone, from cycling on the 1st 10 days  of the month, that my breasts and nipples became extra sensitive/tender, much more so that I experienced from and sensitivity./tender from just being on E.   Though this could also be from my T finally dropping after upping my Spironolactone dosage for about 6 weeks.  And of course with that increase in sensitivity.tenderness, I did notice some increase in size,  though not necessarily much to brag about.

The only thing I did notice in regards to body temperature, is that the last few nights, while sleeping in the same things I normally sleep in, with my covers on, and my heat off, I have woken up sweating, not a full on drenched in sweat, but definitely hot and a bit damp...


One last thought too.  While I had started HRT in June 2017, I stopped in May of 2018  and restarted in January of 2019.  Before I had stopped, I could have sworn I had felt some pretty decent breast buds.  But after having been off HRT for about 6 months, I wasn't sure I had really felt them at all.  But now since resuming at the beginning of 2019, I definitely feel them now these last 2-3 weeks.  There is no mistaking them at this point

Now listen up queen resources of my progesterone knowledge.
I now sit here with a pill container clutched in my paws that says on it Progesterone XXX mg, and they recommend to preferably take it at bed time.  I have this 90 day supply plus three 90 day refills.

Now my question, is that the right stuff now?  My doc does not know anything about it, and he follows my guidance.  Did i tell him the right stuff for this prescription?

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 07:48:54 PM
Now listen up queen resources of my progesterone knowledge.
I now sit here with a pill container clutched in my paws that says on it Progesterone XXX mg, and they recommend to preferably take it at bed time.  I have this 90 day supply plus three 90 day refills.

Now my question, is that the right stuff now?  My doc does not know anything about it, and he follows my guidance.  Did i tell him the right stuff for this prescription?

My micronized bio-identical Progesterone is called Prometrium

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 07:54:30 PM
My micronized bio-identical Progesterone is called Prometrium

This is a Walgreen's pill container and the label just says Progesterone.  While the label on the old container says Medroxyprogesterone.

I don't know how many kinds of the stuff are out there, and hope that I have the right stuff now.  The dosing of the new stuff is 10 times higher than the one of the medroxy stuff.

Where are our resident pharmacists when we need them?

@Linde

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 09:04:18 PM
This is a Walgreen's pill container and the label just says Progesterone.  While the label on the old container says Medroxyprogesterone.

I don't know how many kinds of the stuff are out there, and hope that I have the right stuff now.  The dosing of the new stuff is 10 times higher than the one of the medroxy stuff.

Where are our resident pharmacists when we need them?

My guess is that you probably have the right stuff.  Didn't Walgreens give you any literature with it? 

Go to http://drugs.com (http://drugs.com). You can look up drugs by what's printed on them, shape, and color, or you could look up progesterone and view the images to compare with what you have. Or if there's documentation with the pills that'll tell you exactly what you've got.


Stephanie

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 09:31:46 PM
@Linde

My guess is that you probably have the right stuff.  Didn't Walgreens give you any literature with it?

It came with the typical Walgren's printout about how to take it and all the possible side effects.  The same stuff is also in Drugs. com listed
It's generic name is progesterone, the way as indicated in Drugs.com, but neither there nor on any papers or the container is anything to be found of micronized or bio identical.  One of the brand names seems to be Prometrium.
While the pharmaceutical category is Progestin.

Putting all the tidbits together:

Ladies and Gentlemen, tonight I will take my first dose of micronized progesterone!

Let the boobs get bigger and my night sleep better!

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 20, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
Go to http://drugs.com (http://drugs.com). You can look up drugs by what's printed on them, shape, and color, or you could look up progesterone and view the images to compare with what you have. Or if there's documentation with the pills that'll tell you exactly what you've got.


Stephanie

Thank you all for your help, as of today I am a member of the lustrous micronized progesterone club, and I have a 90 day prescription in my hands, and three more 90 day supplies allowed!

Is the micronized Progesterone you talking about Linde, Jessica, and Stephanie also bio-identical Progesterone?  Or just finely ground?


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 20, 2019, 10:39:27 PM
Is the micronized Progesterone you talking about Linde, Jessica, and Stephanie also bio-identical Progesterone?  Or just finely ground?


Chrissy

Bioidentical progesterone is simply progesterone. It's micronized (finely ground) in the laboratory for better absorption in the body.

Because I am now a member of the club, what initial measurements should I take to be able to chart any progress (for the case there is any progress)?

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 10:48:52 PM
Bioidentical progesterone is simply progesterone. It's micronized (finely ground) in the laboratory for better absorption in the body.

Thank you Jessica.

Chrissy

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 10:51:12 PM
Because I am now a member of the club, what initial measurements should I take to be able to chart any progress (for the case there is any progress)?

Linde,

I am sure you will receive clear instructions on where and how to measure.
In the meantime, if you have a tight blouse at the bustline, after awhile try it on again (use both times no bra or the same bra) to see if it is tighter!  If it is, maybe that is a practical test that gave you the desired results!  It is measuring without measuring.  :)

I suppose a form fitting blouse that becomes tighter later would also work, but one that is too baggy you might not be able to tell the difference unless you had a lot of breast growth!

Chrissy

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 10:51:12 PM
Because I am now a member of the club, what initial measurements should I take to be able to chart any progress (for the case there is any progress)?

I measure my bust, butt and beyond.
In all seriousness, when I measure my breasts I take the end of the tape and place it on the clavicle directly above the nipple, then pull it straight over the nipple and to the inframammary fold.  That one and the typical bust dimension will give you indication of growth or change.
Measure your hips and thighs also, I've understood that could and hopefully will increase as well.
I also measure my areolae and nipple size.

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 11:03:57 PM
I measure my bust, butt and beyond.
In all seriousness, when I measure my breasts I take the end of the tape and place it on the clavicle directly above the nipple, then pull it straight over the nipple and to the inframammary fold.  That one and the typical bust dimension will give you indication of growth or change.
Measure your hips and thighs also, I've understood that could and hopefully will increase as well.
I also measure my areolae and nipple size.

I knew some detailed measurement advice would be provided!  I will make a note of that procedure Jessica.

In regard to hips and thighs, if my jeans fit tighter, I know there has been some growth there for some reason.   :)

In all seriousness you are a great provider of useful information!  Measurements done the same way over time is a great way to track differences. 

I do wonder how much water retention impacts measurements, what do you know about that? 

Thanks and hugs,

Chrissy

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 11:03:57 PM
Bust, butt and beyond.

THE Place to shop!


Stephanie

Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 10:51:12 PM
Because I am now a member of the club, what initial measurements should I take to be able to chart any progress (for the case there is any progress)?

The giveaway for me was when I suddenly noticed that the padded 36B I'd been wearing for a while had suddenly lost the extra room I'd gotten used to. I still feel around it, expecting it to push in like it used to, but it doesn't any more.

So other than taking measurements, which I never seem to read the same twice, you may want to shop for a bra that's just a little too big, and see whether you end up filling it better in a while. I buy lightly padded bras so they hold their shape when there isn't enough "me" to completely fill it at first.


Stephanie

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 20, 2019, 11:17:21 PM

I knew some detailed measurement advice would be provided!  I will make a note of that procedure Jessica.

In regard to hips and thighs, if my jeans fit tighter, I know there has been some growth there for some reason.   :)

In all seriousness you are a great provider of useful information!  Measurements done the same way over time is a great way to track differences. 

I do wonder how much water retention impacts measurements, what do you know about that? 

Thanks and hugs,

Chrissy

Chrissy, the only fluctuations I've had has been periodically during the day my breasts will get a snoopy nose then round out.  My areolae also has a tendency to become quite large and swollen  then shrink.  I have no idea if water retention has anything to do with it.

So be it know to the world, currently

Bust                                     46"
Right nipple to breast bone    6"
Left nipple to breast bone      5 1/2"   
Areolae                                2"
Nipple width                        1/4"
Nipple projection                 1/4"
Hip                                    46"

What is a realistic time length to make the next measurements?

Here are today's measurements:
Bust                                     45 1/2"
Right nipple to breast bone    6"
Left nipple to breast bone      5 1/2"   
Areolae                                1 3/4"
Nipple width                        1/4"
Nipple projection                 1/4"
Hip                                    46"


Is progesterone doing the opposite it is supposed to do, or am I loosing some weight (yeah)?

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 12:22:48 AM
So be it know to the world, currently

Bust                                     46"
Right nipple to breast bone    6"
Left nipple to breast bone      5 1/2"   
Areolae                                2"
Nipple width                        1/4"
Nipple projection                 1/4"
Hip                                    46"

What is a realistic time length to make the next measurements?

Your measuring to the breast bone (sternum?) is new to me.  It's different than the way I described from the clavicle.  But if that works for you, continue.
I personally took my measurements every four weeks.  Daily measurements may be handy to keep track of things like water retention changes, but they won't be accurate in the long run.

It's like most HRT results.  It takes months to years to see results.  Progesterone will inflate your breast temporarily, but they will go back to the size they were. 

I've been on micronized Progesterone for over two years with little growth.  The shape of my breasts has rounded out and nipples are larger since starting Progesterone.

I take it for the health benefits, mental benefits, the change in shape benefits, and of course the AA reasons.  No more spiro for me [emoji846].


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 09:52:59 AM
Your measuring to the breast bone (sternum?) is new to me.  It's different than the way I described from the clavicle.  But if that works for you, continue.
I personally took my measurements every four weeks.  Daily measurements may be handy to keep track of things like water retention changes, but they won't be accurate in the long run.

I don't know if that sternum thing works, but logic tells me, if a bob grows,that distance should also grow.  Pulling it from the clavicle over the nipple to the fold, could put some pressure on the breasts and lead to false measurement results.
That was my thought behind using the sternum as a reference point.

My sleep has not been influenced at all, and I will not hold my breath that it will.  I am still a little concerned if any of those hormones do anything to me.  I know that I do not metabolize any opioides, and some other medications, I wonder if hormones some new stuff they find that my body will not really metabolize.  I am just simply a medical experimentation project who looks like a human!

I am with you monthly measurements should allow enough time to really see some growth, and my  handy ticker will tell me when to do it!

Quote from: CindyLouFromCO on May 21, 2019, 09:57:52 AM
It's like most HRT results.  It takes months to years to see results.  Progesterone will inflate your breast temporarily, but they will go back to the size they were. 

I've been on micronized Progesterone for over two years with little growth.  The shape of my breasts has rounded out and nipples are larger since starting Progesterone.

I take it for the health benefits, mental benefits, the change in shape benefits, and of course the AA reasons.  No more spiro for me [emoji846].


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Am I the only one in this progesterone reporting group who had an orchi or SRS?  Do we, who have no testosterone to speak of, react different to the stuff?

Quote from: Jessica on May 20, 2019, 11:32:36 PM
Chrissy, the only fluctuations I've had has been periodically during the day my breasts will get a snoopy nose then round out.  My areolae also has a tendency to become quite large and swollen  then shrink.  I have no idea if water retention has anything to do with it.

Thank you Jessica!

Chrissy

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
Am I the only one in this progesterone reporting group who had an orchi or SRS?  Do we, who have no testosterone to speak of, react different to the stuff?

Probably no and no.  My T is in normal female range.

Maybe if you have zero T Progesterone will work in ways you wish quicker??

As they say YMMV.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Firstly, I am advising anyone to always follow your doctors directions in taking any medications.

I was told by a close girlfriend that taking progesterone as a suppository will allow for better absorption into the blood stream, unlike how they will go through your liver taken orally.  Much like Estradiol is affected when taken orally.  I asked my doctor if taken as a suppository would be better, which he agreed.  He wants to check how the next blood test turns out.

And yes....trim your nails or use gloves!

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 05:51:48 PM
Firstly, I am advising anyone to always follow your doctors directions in taking any medications.

I was told by a close girlfriend that taking progesterone as a suppository will allow for better absorption into the blood stream, unlike how they will go through your liver taken orally.  Much like Estradiol is affected when taken orally.  I asked my doctor if taken as a suppository would be better, which he agreed.  He wants to check how the next blood test turns out.

And yes....trim your nails or use gloves!

@Jessica
Dear Jess:

Good advice !!!!!!  ;) :o

Hugs,
Danielle

@Alaskan Danielle

Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on May 21, 2019, 06:02:17 PM
@Jessica
Dear Jess:

Good advice !!!!!!  ;) :o

Hugs,
Danielle

Thank you Danielle.....You don't want to know how I know this....oof!

:embarrassed:

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 05:51:48 PM
Firstly, I am advising anyone to always follow your doctors directions in taking any medications.

I was told by a close girlfriend that taking progesterone as a suppository will allow for better absorption into the blood stream, unlike how they will go through your liver taken orally.  Much like Estradiol is affected when taken orally.  I asked my doctor if taken as a suppository would be better, which he agreed.  He wants to check how the next blood test turns out.

And yes....trim your nails or use gloves!

You mean those standard gel caps, just as they are shoved into your rear end??  I wonder if one could take them sublingual?  It works great with my estrogen

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 07:26:31 PM
You mean those standard gel caps, just as they are shoved into your rear end??  I wonder if one could take them sublingual?  It works great with my estrogen

I would think that they may burst then trickle down your throat.
It might be worth a try.  I'd reckon that they taste like peanuts.

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 07:38:47 PM
I would think that they may burst then trickle down your throat.
It might be worth a try.  I'd reckon that they taste like peanuts.

I am not certain that I would want to put something in my mouth that was meant for my rear end? ???  :o ;)

Progesterone may be less critical for the liver than estrogen! It still has some rare cases of liver toxicity

https://livertox.nih.gov/Progestins.htm

Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on May 21, 2019, 07:41:54 PM
I am not certain that I would want to put something in my mouth that was meant for my rear end? ???  :o ;)

I don't know about your rear end, but wie were talking about the progesterone capsules meant for oral ingestion.
I wondered if Jessica thought one could inert those into ones rectum.
I know, one can almost anything insert into the back door, creativity seems to be the name of the game with this, too.  >:-) But I am only interested in the progesterone capsules! ???

I spoke with my Dr today and she agreed to give me an Rx for progesterone. I'm so excited. I really hope it rounds out my breasts but mainly I'm hoping for nipple and areola development. Thank you all for sharing your experiences.

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Quote from: Linde on May 20, 2019, 07:48:54 PM
Now listen up queen resources of my progesterone knowledge.
I now sit here with a pill container clutched in my paws that says on it Progesterone XXX mg, and they recommend to preferably take it at bed time.  I have this 90 day supply plus three 90 day refills.

Now my question, is that the right stuff now?  My doc does not know anything about it, and he follows my guidance.  Did i tell him the right stuff for this prescription?

My Label just says "IC Progesterone", but when I look at the information sheet it says common name "Prometrium"

Quote from: Myranda on May 21, 2019, 08:08:11 PM
My Label just says "IC Progesterone", but when I look at the information sheet it says common name "Prometrium"

Thanks, I found this, too.  Buried deep in a lot of nothing fluff!

@Alaskan Danielle

Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on May 21, 2019, 07:41:54 PM
I am not certain that I would want to put something in my mouth that was meant for my rear end? ???  :o ;)

Yes indeed Danielle!  My promethium is an oral medication and can also be used as a suppository.
Not the other way around. 

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 08:46:47 PM
@Alaskan Danielle

Yes indeed Danielle!  My promethium is an oral medication and can also be used as a suppository.
Not the other way around.

Is it one of those yellowish, about 1/2" long, egg shaped capsules?

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 09:13:38 PM
Is it one of those yellowish, about 1/2" long, egg shaped capsules?

Yep!

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 09:18:19 PM
Yep!

They recommend to orally take them before bed time, do you know when one should be shoving them into the rear end?

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 09:29:40 PM
They recommend to orally take them before bed time, do you know when one should be shoving them into the rear end?

I do understand that your endo is not entirely on board with progesterone and you needed your GP to prescribe it for you.  I can't tell you which time or way is best for you personally, that is up to your physician.

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 09:44:14 PM
I do understand that your endo is not entirely on board with progesterone and you needed your GP to prescribe it for you.  I can't tell you which time or way is best for you personally, that is up to your physician.

I need to teach him!  Remember, I used to work in that field, too.  My endo is not on board at all.  Once I have my physician "trained" enough to understand this hormone stuff, I might drop the endo entirely, and just deal with my physician.  The hormone related blood tests are pretty easy to interpret, and without my testes muddig the picture anymore, I am mostly on maintenance now!

I will try the sublingual route first, and see how that goes (and tastes).  It depends on the coating of those pills, if it is an enteric coating of some kind, it might not melt away under the tongue, but could have problems to melt in the colon, too!

Quote from: Linde on May 21, 2019, 10:42:49 PM
I need to teach him!  Remember, I used to work in that field, too.  My endo is not on board at all.  Once I have my physician "trained" enough to understand this hormone stuff, I might drop the endo entirely, and just deal with my physician.  The hormone related blood tests are pretty easy to interpret, and without my testes muddig the picture anymore, I am mostly on maintenance now!

I will try the sublingual route first, and see how that goes (and tastes).  It depends on the coating of those pills, if it is an enteric coating of some kind, it might not melt away under the tongue, but could have problems to melt in the colon, too!

I asked my girlfriend what she thought of the sublingual route....she said yuck.
I, for your knowledge, have not experienced any problems with it not melting you know where. 

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 10:55:24 PM
I asked my girlfriend what she thought of the sublingual route....she said yuck.
I, for your knowledge, have not experienced any problems with it not melting you know where.

OK, the results of sublingual are in, brought to you in life and in color!
If your mouth is OK wet, it melts relatively easy, and leaves a bitter seat taste in your mouth, nothing to write home about, but also nothing not to take it sublingual!  It takes a little longer for the capsule part to fully dissolve (probing with the tongue, it seems to be empty), and I will just swallow the rest down in a minute or so.

Sublingual will be the way to go for me, probably at the same time as I take estrogen this way.

Quote from: Jessica on May 21, 2019, 10:55:24 PM
I asked my girlfriend what she thought of the sublingual route....she said yuck.
I, for your knowledge, have not experienced any problems with it not melting you know where.

I tried a couple of them rectally. Dr Powers says they work better that way in every respect, including T suppression. But no matter how far I pushed them in, I woke up the next morning with an oily patch in my panties and a short bout of diarrhea. I may try again to verify, but I've just been taking them orally for a while.


- Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 21, 2019, 11:44:44 PM
I tried a couple of them rectally. Dr Powers says they work better that way in every respect, including T suppression. But no matter how far I pushed them in, I woke up the next morning with an oily patch in my panties and a short bout of diarrhea. I may try again to verify, but I've just been taking them orally for a while.


- Stephanie

I've read that when Progesterone is prescribed to cis-women and directed to insert vaginally, there have been an "inserter" involved.

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 21, 2019, 11:44:44 PM
I tried a couple of them rectally. Dr Powers says they work better that way in every respect, including T suppression. But no matter how far I pushed them in, I woke up the next morning with an oily patch in my panties and a short bout of diarrhea. I may try again to verify, but I've just been taking them orally for a while.


- Stephanie

I have the same concern.  I will take them sublingual, and should have a similar effect to inserting them into the colon.  In both ways it is absorbed through mucosa, and the results should be very similar.  I do not have any T to suppress, and I don't know with which parameters Dr. Powers measures the outcome!

Quote from: CindyLouFromCO on May 21, 2019, 05:31:51 PM

Maybe if you have zero T Progesterone will work in ways you wish quicker??

As they say YMMV.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I sure hope so. In February my T was 0.2 (Intl) or 6 (US). I have my next BTs for E&P&T next week.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 22, 2019, 03:46:02 AM
I sure hope so. In February my T was 0.2 (Intl) or 6 (US). I have my next BTs for E&P&T next week.

Hugs

Pamela

We are close in T, mine was <5 (US).  I am taking P now sublingual, and let's see how that goes for me.  I am up for the next test in about 8 months.  My endo does not feel there will be many changes, because there is nothing left for me that could change the T level, and because of this, he feels that two blood tests a year are enough for me.

I just returned from my endo appointment.   She said NO to my request to start progesterone.  She read all the current articles(I sent her the link to the UK article posted here), consulted with another endocrinologist with transgender patients, and decided that it was still too much of an unknown.  Her point was that I was already doing a lot of new things to my body, and thought it was risky to add another hormone that has little to no research about its effects on transgender women.

Israel is a small country with state supported medical care.  She is one of two endocrinological clinic heads that provide transgender medical care.  There are no other alternatives.  I thanked her for her cautious, conservative approach to my health!

Quote from: Dorit on May 27, 2019, 08:15:37 AM
I just returned from my endo appointment.   She said NO to my request to start progesterone.  She read all the current articles(I sent her the link to the UK article posted here), consulted with another endocrinologist with transgender patients, and decided that it was still too much of an unknown.  Her point was that I was already doing a lot of new things to my body, and thought it was risky to add another hormone that has little to no research about its effects on transgender women.

Israel is a small country with state supported medical care.  She is one of two endocrinological clinic heads that provide transgender medical care.  There are no other alternatives.  I thanked her for her cautious, conservative approach to my health!

Hi Dorit
Some endos seem to be extra conservative, mine for sure is!  He did not want to prescribe progesterone for me either.  he was of the opinion that the authors of the papers had it wrong because there has never been evidence that progesterone was present in females earlier than several years they started puberty, etc.  But endos are not always right.  When I went to him first time, my breasts were barely an A cup, and he told me very confident that because of my age, I should not expect any more growth!  Well I started to wear a C cup yesterday, because my B cup bra was hurting me!  What did he know?

I went with all the research to my family doctor, who is an internist, and he studied it and prescribed progesterone for me!  The endo can be happy with his opinion, I trust my family doctor more than the endo!
Have a wonderful day!
Linde

I just met with my new Endo this morning. She is willing to prescribe progesterone but not until after I recover from my surgery. The only problem is, Kaiser only covers the bad progesterone and not micronized progesterone so I will have to pay out of pocket until things change. I will report back in about two or three months.

YAY!!!

Quote from: Donica on May 28, 2019, 04:03:40 PM
I just met with my new Endo this morning. She is willing to prescribe progesterone but not until after I recover from my surgery. The only problem is, Kaiser only covers the bad progesterone and not micronized progesterone so I will have to pay out of pocket until things change. I will report back in about two or three months.

YAY!!!

The micronized stuff seems to be pretty expensive.  For my 90 days supply I had to copay $45.  The bad stuff I had before did not require any copay!
So, be prepared for a little sticker shock when you have to pay it on your own!

Quote from: Linde on May 28, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
The micronized stuff seems to be pretty expensive.  For my 90 days supply I had to copay $45.  The bad stuff I had before did not require any copay!
So, be prepared for a little sticker shock when you have to pay it on your own!

I do pay around 100 a month for e injections so I am eager to see progesterone when I have my prescription in 2 wks

Sent from my LM-Q910 using Tapatalk

@Donica

Quote from: Donica on May 28, 2019, 04:03:40 PM
I just met with my new Endo this morning. She is willing to prescribe progesterone but not until after I recover from my surgery. The only problem is, Kaiser only covers the bad progesterone and not micronized progesterone so I will have to pay out of pocket until things change. I will report back in about two or three months.

YAY!!!

Northern California Kaiser allows micronized Progesterone in their formulary. 
The price of course is determined by your plan.  I get the employee rate at $20 for 3 months worth.

Quote from: Linde on May 28, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
The micronized stuff seems to be pretty expensive.  For my 90 days supply I had to copay $45.  The bad stuff I had before did not require any copay!
So, be prepared for a little sticker shock when you have to pay it on your own!

It all depends on your insurance policy for sure.

Quote from: Jessica on May 28, 2019, 05:47:42 PM
@Donica

Northern California Kaiser allows micronized Progesterone in their formulary. 
The price of course is determined by your plan.  I get the employee rate at $20 for 3 months worth.

Wow that is pretty amazing.  I thought my insurance was great, and it is $7.50/month

Hello Everyone

You may recall I started Progesterone March 17th but my quarterly Blood Tests were due yesterday and hence that for Progesterone refers to just 74 days.

My readings are: E 242 (Intl)   or 66 (US)
                         T  0.4 (Intl)  or  12 (US)
                         P  3.7 (Intl)  or 107 (US). I assume in US you measure P in ng/dl as you do for T but please correct me if I am wrong. Intl is nmol/l.


My thoughts are that: E is low as previous reading was 558 (Intl) or 152 (US)
                                T is fine
                                P is a little high

I shall discuss with my doctor and endo and let you know their thoughts in due course.

Hugs

Pamela
                           

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 31, 2019, 09:24:14 AM
Hello Everyone

You may recall I started Progesterone March 17th but my quarterly Blood Tests were due yesterday and hence that for Progesterone refers to just 74 days.

My readings are: E 242 (Intl)   or 66 (US)
                         T  0.4 (Intl)  or  12 (US)
                         P  3.7 (Intl)  or 107 (US). I assume in US you measure P in ng/dl as you do for T but please correct me if I am wrong. Intl is nmol/l.


My thoughts are that: E is low as previous reading was 558 (Intl) or 152 (US)
                                T is fine
                                P is a little high

I shall discuss with my doctor and endo and let you know their thoughts in due course.

Hugs

Pamela
                           

your E seems to be quite a bit on the low side.  How do you control your T?  Maybe that has a side effect to also push your E down?

@pamelatransuk

Quote from: pamelatransuk on May 31, 2019, 09:24:14 AM
Hello Everyone

You may recall I started Progesterone March 17th but my quarterly Blood Tests were due yesterday and hence that for Progesterone refers to just 74 days.

My readings are: E 242 (Intl)   or 66 (US)
                         T  0.4 (Intl)  or  12 (US)
                         P  3.7 (Intl)  or 107 (US). I assume in US you measure P in ng/dl as you do for T but please correct me if I am wrong. Intl is nmol/l.


My thoughts are that: E is low as previous reading was 558 (Intl) or 152 (US)
                                T is fine
                                P is a little high

I shall discuss with my doctor and endo and let you know their thoughts in due course.

Hugs

Pamela
                           

My thoughts are, depending on your age, your doctor may be making your target numbers in line with a menopausal woman.