Let's clear this genital issue up right here and now. If a soldier has an IED blowup and they lose their testicles and penis, are they now considered women? NO!!!
Are women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) syndrome is a disorder that occurs in females and mainly affects the reproductive system. This condition causes the vagina and uterus to be underdeveloped or absent, are they really men?
You want to go to DNA? Is a man who was born with chromosomes XX but has female DNA and Male sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are Male, are they really women?
Woman who was born with chromosomes XY but has male DNA and female sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are female, are they men?
Your next arguement is God doesn't make mistakes. So then I ask you: What about people born intersex. These are people that are born with reproductive organs of both. They are born with two sets of DNA. How do you know what gender they are? Listen to the doctors when they are born? They get this wrong a staggering 89% of the time? Listen to the bible? The bible states the a women is someone that bares children. What about the millions upon millions that are unable to bare children? Are they also men?
All I have to say is the evidence is clear. The evidence is overwhelming. Study after study is providing Clear and direct evidence contradicting your beliefs.
Gender comes from your brain. Gender is a sense of who you are. It's a sense that does not change. It's not between your legs, its between your ears.
Hello MelissaAnn
Thank you for your summary. I agree wholeheartedly.
Which is the more powerful the genitalia or the brain? Quite obviously the brain.
The brain controls the body.
The brain is paramount and it has no competition.
Gender is innate and never changes.
Hugs
Pamela
When the question is "what is a man?" or "what is a woman?" there is no one defining characteristic that is or can be conclusive of the issue. You are absolutely correct that every argument thrown at a trans person to exclude them from the gender with which they identify fails any logical test.
The only means in which it can properly be defined and which pass the test of logic include one which is internal or external. The internal means involves how one identifies in our heads. It actually passes the logic test.
The only other means, and this is external, is the duck test. If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then its a duck. It is illogical for them to say "well that person over there walks like a woman, and looks like a woman, and dresses like a woman, and sounds like a woman, but I'll call him a man because when he was born he was assigned male". Gender critical people get very hung up on the issue, but in day to day life, when somebody is referring to me, they will naturally choose she, woman, her etc. Its not out of niceness (although they might be nice), its how language works. The shop assistant will say "can you help this woman here, she needs...." because its how descriptive language works. And the shop assistant gives not two jots about what genitals I may or may not have.
Thanks for posting this Melissa Ann. You made some excellent points.
Paige :)
Quote from: MelissaAnn on March 09, 2019, 10:41:47 PM
Let's clear this genital issue up right here and now. If a soldier has an IED blowup and they lose their testicles and penis, are they now considered women? NO!!!
Are women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) syndrome is a disorder that occurs in females and mainly affects the reproductive system. This condition causes the vagina and uterus to be underdeveloped or absent, are they really men?
You want to go to DNA? Is a man who was born with chromosomes XX but has female DNA and Male sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are Male, are they really women?
Woman who was born with chromosomes XY but has male DNA and female sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are female, are they men?
They are also considered to be born with an intersex syndrome
Quote
Your next arguement is God doesn't make mistakes. So then I ask you: What about people born intersex. These are people that are born with reproductive organs of both. They are born with two sets of DNA. How do you know what gender they are? Listen to the doctors when they are born? They get this wrong a staggering 89% of the time?
They got it wrong with me, and forced me to live as a male
Quote
All I have to say is the evidence is clear. The evidence is overwhelming. Study after study is providing Clear and direct evidence contradicting your beliefs.
Gender comes from your brain. Gender is a sense of who you are. It's a sense that does not change. It's not between your legs, its between your ears.
You got it right sister! They allowed some crap to remain between my legs, but forgot to change the rest of my body and my brain!
Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 10, 2019, 09:23:35 AM
Hello MelissaAnn
Which is the more powerful the genitalia or the brain? Quite obviously the brain.
The brain controls the body.
The brain is paramount and it has no competition.
Gender is innate and never changes.
Hugs
Pamela
You wonder with some men, what is controlling them! Sometimes one gets the feeling it is not the brain, but the genitalia!
Quote from: MelissaAnn on March 09, 2019, 10:41:47 PM
Let's clear this genital issue up right here and now. If a soldier has an IED blowup and they lose their testicles and penis, are they now considered women? NO!!!
Are women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) syndrome is a disorder that occurs in females and mainly affects the reproductive system. This condition causes the vagina and uterus to be underdeveloped or absent, are they really men?
You want to go to DNA? Is a man who was born with chromosomes XX but has female DNA and Male sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are Male, are they really women?
Woman who was born with chromosomes XY but has male DNA and female sexual characteristics who is able to reproduce and knows they are female, are they men?
Your next arguement is God doesn't make mistakes. So then I ask you: What about people born intersex. These are people that are born with reproductive organs of both. They are born with two sets of DNA. How do you know what gender they are? Listen to the doctors when they are born? They get this wrong a staggering 89% of the time? Listen to the bible? The bible states the a women is someone that bares children. What about the millions upon millions that are unable to bare children? Are they also men?
All I have to say is the evidence is clear. The evidence is overwhelming. Study after study is providing Clear and direct evidence contradicting your beliefs.
Gender comes from your brain. Gender is a sense of who you are. It's a sense that does not change. It's not between your legs, its between your ears.
You struck a deep chord with me Melissa.
All I can figure is that our very existence as apparent contradictions does something to create intense fear and uncertainty in some people; people who need black and white fixed places for everything so that they can feel safe, and they want to destroy anything that questions that certainty. Or people who are either so afraid of their own femininity or so damaged by our patriarchal society that they have taken their hatred of men to the point where they lose their humanity and become the oppressor, and yet fail to even acknowledge the possibility they could have it wrong or have unconscious bias based on fear. When I think of TERFS or radfems I always now picture the pigs from Animal Farm in my mind.
Quote"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
Sometimes it makes me laugh. As if anyone has anything to fear from me. Beaten down, harassed, bullied, to the point I would take my own life, but never attack someone else. Someone who is taking hormones that have effectively chemically castrated myself. Is it so wrong to want to live an authentic life, that harms no one, without fear of judgement or reprisal? So much projection of fear and hate on us; why?
Quote from: Jeal on March 10, 2019, 02:23:36 PM
So much projection of fear and hate on us; why?
Because we are different! We do not fit the mold society has given itself. We are different, and difference creates fear in the mind of many people who do not want to open their mind!
Quote from: Dietlind on March 10, 2019, 01:16:25 PM
You wonder with some men, what is controlling them! Sometimes one gets the feeling it is not the brain, but the genitalia!
I'm convinced that it's the "T". It's very powerful. I did some things because of it that my brain told me was wrong while I was doing it.
Quote from: Jeal on March 10, 2019, 02:23:36 PM
As if anyone has anything to fear from me. Beaten down, harassed, bullied, to the point I would take my own life, but never attack someone else. Someone who is taking hormones that have effectively chemically castrated myself. Is it so wrong to want to live an authentic life, that harms no one, without fear of judgement or reprisal? So much projection of fear and hate on us; why?
I don't think they fear us. I think they fear that what we represent might be inside them as well. That scares the hell out of them. My opinion.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 10, 2019, 07:10:23 PM
I don't think they fear us. I think they fear that what we represent might be inside them as well. That scares the hell out of them. My opinion.
I think there is a chunk of homophobia thrown in there with it. Guy finds a trans girl attractive but thinks that trans girls are guys. He can't be gay so hates trans girls for ticking him.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Many of these are
very valid arguments, but
please don't blame "all men," nor "the evils of testosterone" in your arguments. Not all of us men fit into that category. Some (cis) men are jerks, either because of the way they were raised or because of how they were made to move through Society. They have the ability to change their way of thinking. Whether or not they do so is on them.
I am a transman, and proud to be one on testosterone, and I
definitely do
not fit into the "typical (cis) male way of thinking and seeing Society. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm of the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck" school of thought. To me, unless I'm told otherwise, all of you are ladies (I only see ladies responding so far, feel free to correct me if I"m wrong), and I will treat you with the respect that you deserve...
without being a "sexist xxxhole."
This is a very interesting conversation, one I'm happy to have read. I'm just asking that you please remember that not all men are jerks.
Quote from: TonyaW on March 10, 2019, 09:19:18 PM
I think there is a chunk of homophobia thrown in there with it. Guy finds a trans girl attractive but thinks that trans girls are guys. He can't be gay so hates trans girls for ticking him.
Stupid, but true. And too many transwomen have been beaten up or even killed for some (cis) man's blindness and refusal to see a transwoman as a woman.
Even though it doesn't happen as often, I've also heard of (cis) men raping a transman for similar reasons. Their blind refusal to see a transperson as the gender they are. Remember the movie 'Boys Don't Cry?' That was based on something that really happened. :(
Ryuichi
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on March 11, 2019, 02:50:43 PM
Many of these are very valid arguments, but please don't blame "all men," nor "the evils of testosterone" in your arguments.
Black and white thinking/statements tend to be dangerous in any context. I appreciate your points!
@ Ryuichi13, at different place here on Susan's I stated that I think that I am a lesbian and that I don't want to deal with men! But I excluded trans men from this not wanting to deal with men. I feel that I could be a good partner for a trans man, because we have this common bond of being trans, and have had to endure similar hardships. This gives such a deep understanding for each others feeling. I am also pretty sure that we could sense, what causes the partner any kind of dysphoria, and know how to avoid this.
With other words, I am a lesbian who could be something like a hetero if the partner is a trans man. Does that make sense? It is clearly not the testosterone what makes cis men not to be attractive to me, it is the way the testosterone is used. I bet there are some cis men around, who would be good partners for me, too, but I do not want to take the risk, with trying this out!
Quote from: Dietlind on March 11, 2019, 09:00:24 PM
@ Ryuichi13, at different place here on Susan's I stated that I think that I am a lesbian and that I don't want to deal with men! But I excluded trans men from this not wanting to deal with men. I feel that I could be a good partner for a trans man, because we have this common bond of being trans, and have had to endure similar hardships. This gives such a deep understanding for each others feeling. I am also pretty sure that we could sense, what causes the partner any kind of dysphoria, and know how to avoid this.
With other words, I am a lesbian who could be something like a hetero if the partner is a trans man. Does that make sense? It is clearly not the testosterone what makes cis men not to be attractive to me, it is the way the testosterone is used. I bet there are some cis men around, who would be good partners for me, too, but I do not want to take the risk, with trying this out!
Actually, @Dietlind, it makes perfect sense.
Shared experiences is something that
can and sometimes
does make people close, something which we here at Susan's Place understand all too well. We have experienced similar feelings during our transitioning/questioning/etc, and that has made us into a family, one that I am proud to say I belong to. I can also understand how a transwoman and a transman could end up together, since being trans is so huge in our lives. It shouldn't be the only thing that makes a relationship, but you know that, I'm sure.
So I see no reason why a beautiful transwoman such as yourself couldn't be in a hetero relationship with a transman...
or a relationship with a cis woman. Again, shared experiences.... ;)
Ryuichi