CAUTION: Please be respectful of others.
I wish to be respectful of all others. AND; this statement bothers me. A lot.
If you are not Trans. then what are you doing here?
That's basically how I would sum it up.
If you don't want to consider yourself one of us then why are you involved with the trans. community.
Or if you do, then stop saying that.
If you want to ignore your past, No matter how much it will never have not-existed, then fine.
Do it on your own time though.
That throws a lot in peoples faces.
I hear this mostly from trans. women.
Think about the guys. How does this make them feel?
They don't have a thing. They may never.
There won't any of us be able to have kids if we get surgery.
We will never be the same as our bio born equivilants, and some of us know that.
This is very frustrating, because it says that all that you need to be a woman is to have surgery. This is blatently untrue.
Being a woman is so much more than that. So much more than just the organs on ones body.
This statement says that anyone who has not had surgery is not a woman, wheras someone who has completed IS.
This is not true. And if you want to assert that it is OR that you are "no longer trans." because you have had surgery...$#%@!%(.
That's how I feel.
Oh, so I'm not a woman, I'm Trans.? Because I have not had surgery?
But you are, because you have, and you are not Trans.???
No.
I don't buy it.
And I think its extremely disrespectful to others.
Think about how that makes the rest of us feel.
Besides, its just not true either.
Being a woman does not depend on one's body
That's my opinion, but I may be incorrect.
I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but that's how it comes accross to me.
IT seems disrespectful to me.
Thank you for your time.
Sara.
P.S.
Everyone please try to be as respectful as you can be when posting your responses to this. I have a feeling this might get heated. That is not my intention But it is important to lay the ground rules for this. Please be respectful of yourself and others when responding. Thank you.
EDIT : I may be completely misunderstanding the meaning of people who say this.
But I do think it is important that if this is so, that still, I mention how this statement comes across. -Thank you! Sara
EDIT: EDited the title to be more clear
Greetings,
I would like to add a couple of things here...
A lot of people don't identify as trans, they identify as the gender they feel they should have been born as at birth. Transition should be a temporary phase on the path to becoming one's true self...it is not supposed to be the ultimate stopping ground...but just one part of the journey. You basically, in my case: male -> transition -> female...and this is only to bring the body into alignment with what the mind already is.
Now, after transitioning people start to move on with their lives and live it in their new gender and truly only want to be accepted as their new gender. Some wish to forget the previous part of their lives as it caused them much pain and problems...can't say that I blame them one bit. I personally do not see myself as a transwoman or tgirl or whatever label people wish to place on us at times...I am a woman plan and simple...
What I am trying to get at is that it's not uncommon for people to only what to be known in their new gender and not identify as trans...for the trans part is truly only supposed to be a temporary stopping point on our journey of life.
Just my 2 cents...
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
Sara,
I don't think anyone who has said that phrase, I admit I have said it a lot, means to be disrespectful to anyone else. I know I use it for my self. This is who I am and I know that for some it may not be possible. I use it for my own ego, and I'm not trying to put anyone else down for using the phrase. This is how I feel now. I know I will always be trans and that part of me will never go away, but I try to boost my ego up to say that I'm now a woman. People have said that to me a lot of times. They have said why do go on with the gender identity groups, you are a female now so go on with your life. I have said that if I can help in anyway that I can to make life better for others I will. I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw, but I will do what I can to make the changes for trans people better. I do understand how you feel and if it makes life any better for all concern, I will not use that phrase on Susans again.
Sheila
I am going to add somthing here.
To say "I don't feel trans. anymore, just a woman" is actually a completely different statement.
To say that one does not identify as trans anymore for whatever reason, is fine.
However to say that being "trans" and being a "woman" are not compatible
(which is what the original statement says) is to throw a lot of issues in a lot of pwoples faces.
One way is saying that as a person, you no longer identify as a term.
The other is saying that "because you are a woman, you are no longer trans." and therefor that "being 'trans.' and being a woman are not compatible"
See what I mean?
EDIT:
I'm a woman too quite frankly, and that doesn't depend on me having surgery.
Izzie hasn't had an operation yet, is she not a woman?
And what about the Guys> Are they not men?
Yes they are.
So please be careful what, and how you say things.
Meanings can be easily misinterpreted, especially if the speach isn't accurate.
And nobody wants more confusion in the world than there already is.
Peace.
Sara
I think people have a right to call themselves and Identify as they wish pre or post transition.
Transition is a process, if people wish to remain Transsexual after that thats a choice, If people wish to identify as Men or Women again thats their choice.
Some people wish to forget their past and only want to move forward in the gender they have become, some wish to be open , I see nothing wrong with either.
If anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
Rebecca
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PMIf anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
And I have the right to think they're self-absorbed jerks.
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PMIf anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
It's not what
they identify as, it's what saying that statement suggests of others.
Quote from: Sarah on January 09, 2008, 10:49:41 PM
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PMIf anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
It's not what they identify as, it's what saying that statement suggests of others.
I understand what you are saying Sarah. Anyone can identify as they like, its just some people want to make another feel less than. Enuf said.
Quote from: Annie Social on January 09, 2008, 10:45:50 PM
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PMIf anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
And I have the right to think they're self-absorbed jerks.
Absolutely thats your right and your choice.
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PM
I think people have a right to call themselves and Identify as they wish pre or post transition.
Transition is a process, if people wish to remain Transsexual after that thats a choice, If people wish to identify as Men or Women again thats their choice.
Some people wish to forget their past and only want to move forward in the gender they have become, some wish to be open , I see nothing wrong with either.
If anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
Rebecca
uh huh. i'm also a diabetic woman. should i identify myself as "diabetes" instead of woman? the term 'transsexual' needs to die in a fire. it doesn't matter if you are pre, post, non, can't op or whatever. that's not what it's about...it's about "who" you are, not about "what you suffer from", capiche?
Ok, first off there are people posting here who are SO or just a supporter as well so being trans anything has nothing to do with the welcome mat here as far as my eyes see. Secondly, this is unfortunately a world of labels. If anyone has read other respnses you would know how much I despise labels. Geez, if we were to depend on labels to be named I would be known as freak of nature. Yes my body is intersexed and is mostly female though I was raised male and am now transitioning to my true gender, but I am really just a woman with enough courage to stop living the lie that she is male (as my family tried to force on me). That is it, nothing else fits me here, just woman. And no I have not had surgery or hormones or anything, just (luckily mind you) a natural body and mind. I had to stay away from here for a while some time ago because I was starting my transition and learning and easily fell into the trap of labelling because of what I was hearing others say on here. After some much needed soul searching and sorting out my beliefs on labels I was able to again return to hopefully help other people where I can. Labels are dangerous and segregates society. Just my opinion,
Kim :angel:
Im with you on this Sarah.
Quote from: Natasha on January 09, 2008, 11:04:27 PM
uh huh. i'm also a diabetic woman. should i identify myself as "diabetes" instead of woman?
That sounds a bit silly, yes. On the other hand, it would be equally silly to go to a diabetes support forum (if there were such a thing) and state 'I'm not a diabetic, I'm a woman'. In that context, being diabetic could well be much more important than being a woman; similarly, over here one's transsexuality is at least as relevant as one's gender. But yes, I too consider the idea of having
transsexual as a
gender identity more than just a little odd.
Nfr
Just to go to the other end of the spectrum here, But there is often a difference when this comes up. in some cases, like recently, a member left, and in her leaving topic, said she was no longer trans, and was going to get on with her life.... cool! good for her.
Well theres also how one identifies... do you, when you think of yourself, say i'm 'male/female/transgender?' if you want to identify yourself, as transgender, fine, as a transman or transwoman? fine. But i think people are allowed to identify as just men and women.
I am a girl. plain and simple. i'm not transitioning to become a transwoman... The reason i transitioned, was because i looked like a boy, but i was a girl, so that needed correcting sharpish...
Trans is something i had to go through, a birth defect....
My being IS is nothing to do with this. at the end of the day. ill still never be the same as my peers... but that doesn't matter...
in my view, people with gid are born transsexual...
they're x gender, in y body... once y=x then x
2 Cancels.... X is alone... you are that gender... sure, maybe not at a genetic level, and sure, no kids, but there are lots of women who cant have children for whatever reason, a woman with a hystorectomy will be on hrt, and have no periods or be able to give birth...
My mother had cervical cancer. and she had a hysterectomy, and massive surgery... shes on hrt, shes not got a uterus, infact, shes got about as much vagina as a transwoman... does that make her less of a woman? hell no.
I do feel its a bit militant to say 'identify as trans or gtfo' because SOs are welcome on this forum... And i think that people who have successfully transitioned should stay if they wish, as it shows people just starting out that there is hope...
For some, Trans is a culture, a social group, a fun little club to be a member of, with your cool little decoder ring...
for some, its a problem, that they fix, and a lot move on to live happy, normal lives.
If you identify as trans, you are transgender, not transsexual, as the key part of therapists diagnostic criteria, and gid in general, is that the individual feels that they are x or y. not Tx or Ty.... Transsexuality is a physical condition. like any other birth defects, ( point of contest i agree) when its cured it goes away, sure, it will never be the same as if it had never happened, but its gone away.
I'm preop, yet i still consider myself female. if im asked, i say it without thought. I'm a female in my deep subconscious, in dreams. i automatically refer to myself as female. not a transsexual female. but female. i don't care that my body is deformed (in my view) that will be fixed, and to a good enough extent that i can successfully move on, and live a normal life, leaving all this behind me....
this forum is a support forum, we don't need people telling each other how to think. just support each other while its needed. a transit camp of sorts. people come, and people go. There is no mandate for when one should leave, and nobody but the site administration can decide that. Because a person doesn't identify the same as you, is thier prerogative, not yours...
Quotethat leaves alot of space and opportunity for us to step up and show others how cute and sweet a girl personality really can be.
what? there is no reason why we should be any different to those admirable women, and bitches... there is no set requirement for transwomen to be 'cute and sweet...' i am female, not a stereotype. this hyperfemininity culture in the TS community is majorly unproductive, and quite sad really.
I do smell an element of jealousy around this topic... as its always the ones that aren't going post op and moving on who complain...
I will make one thing clear. I am a girl. a young woman. I am about as transitioned as i can get, without grs, something i simply cannot afford right now. I live an entirely trans free life off the internet. I study, i work, i socialize with my friends, i date. I AM WOMAN there is nothing T' about my personality, identity, or life, so i will thank you to live and let live.
R :police:
I learned long ago that find a TS BB or a TG BB and you will find as much variety of opinion as you will find people posting. We tend to agree on some things, but hardly all, and even in agreement there is disagreement, or revised opinion at many points.
I really don't think another can always be accountable for 'how I feel and react.' There are lots of people who crush easily and lots of folks who do not. I believe that if we do not cast stones at others over how they identify or don't we have fewer problems.
But, that doesn't mean we will have none. Sometimes someone's thought that "I am a woman." Or "I am a man" will trigger a response from another that is not the INTENTION of the poster. Perhaps when I feel that way, that someone without naming me has stepped on my toes, I should just relax a bit and look at myself to discover why. It may be that as I am unsure, their surety makes me feel 'less than.' In that case: my problem that I need to find some self-peace to alleviate.
And then maybe I also need to realize that an 'in-your-face' post is simply meant as a way to build up the person making the post. That STILL says nothing about me. THEY will have to discover what makes them uncomfortable; I cannot force them to do so, nor can anyone else.
Our lives are journeys, folks. Most of us have come here with no clear sense, always, of 'who I am.' I imagine most if not all of us have gone through those phases. One of the grand 'gifts' of GID. A bit of understanding doesn't hurt me. Nor does trying to recall when I was just as unsure as anyone else might now be.
I never discovered my own comfort by either attacking or trying to model someone else's. But, it took some time to learn that and sometimes I have to remind myself of that still.
If poster Q wants to post a statement "I am NOT trans, I am _____." How does that harm me? Provided, of course, they don't also say, "But YOU, Nichole, are not." If I feel less than from reading that first statement, then I think what I have to do is find the reason inside myself, not in their post.
N~
Long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be. Breathe/DSofM/Pink Floyd
Quote from: Natasha on January 09, 2008, 11:04:27 PM
uh huh. i'm also a diabetic woman. should i identify myself as "diabetes" instead of woman? the term 'transsexual' needs to die in a fire. it doesn't matter if you are pre, post, non, can't op or whatever. that's not what it's about...it's about "who" you are, not about "what you suffer from", capiche?
I agree, Natasha. To me, using the trans label indicates a stage in the process, or in case there's a need to distinguish between cis guys and trans guys, I'll use it. Otherwise I'm just a guy with an unusual medical history. I felt that I personally was finished with the transition part when I felt comfortable in my social role as male. I still need some surgeries, but the fact that they're different from other guys' surgeries doesn't really make a difference to my self-perception.
And, I'm not saying anything about anyone else's status or need to identify as trans or not trans. It's up to you to decide where you fit on the spectrum. And I remain on this board not because I identify as trans, but because I have that condition. To take Natasha's analogy further, if this was a diabetic forum, it wouldn't mean that my whole identity was defined as "diabetic". Rather, that I have that condition and that I share its particular medical issues with others who post. And, if my diabetes was stabilized, I wouldn't expect to leave the board until next time I had blood sugar issues (I'm not diabetic, simply using it as an example).
I'm splitting hairs, probably, about whether it's a primary identity or simply a condition you have and I don't think any of us who define ourselves as women or men deny that we have the medical condition, it's just that we don't primarily define ourselves by the medical condition.
My girlfriend was looking over the "Trans Men Rock" thread the other day and said "I don't love you because you're a trans man. You're just a guy. You're you. You probably do have some positive qualities because of what you've been through, but everyone's different and is shaped by their experiences".
Just my .02
Dennis
The diabetic argument is not the same. I think its important for people with that problem to let others know, so that if something happens we can act in a correct manner. Its not important for people to know you are/were trans.
Bob Dylan has a famous quote about doing a song where he said "It used to go like that, now it goes like this." That the new version is not the old version, does not change the old version.
That's true, Tekla, that is where the analogy fails, but as Natasha said, just because you have diabetes doesn't mean you identify primarily as diabetic. I'm certainly not advocating wearing Medic Alert bracelets that say "transsexual" :laugh:
Dennis
Dennis sums it up pretty well for me also.
I consider myself a woman with a transsexual condition. Being transsexual is simply the medical term for the condition I have. Just as I could also be a woman with a diabetic condition.
I never really identified myself as a "transsexual". I've identified myself as a woman. When I came out to myself, came out of denial, I finally admited to myself that I had a transsexual condition.
Even after the surgeries, I will still have the medical condition called transsexuality, but it will be in remission.
And this I think applies to all trans people, it isn't exclusively male or female. I think Dennis also identifies himself this way, at least that is the way I read his post. Dennis, if I've mis-read your post, please accept my appologies.
-Sandy (and I'm a damn PROUD woman!)
Quote from: BCL on January 09, 2008, 10:33:56 PM
If anyone has the courage to go through this then IMHO they have the right to identify as they want.
Rebecca
exactly the reason why i'm god! >:D
Dennis and Kassandra together really hit the mark for me.
Their view of the world is the one I believe in.
I am however just beginning HRT, and so accept that I have many years of ambiguity, trans-ness ahead of me as I go through transition.
Today I am transexual, and identify as transexual, mainly because I don't want to identify as male.
I have no right to call myself a woman.
I may think like a woman, and behave like a woman, but today I cannot justify the label 'woman'. I don't deserve to be identified as woman until I have put in the time and the work.
One day however I will be a woman. A woman who had a transexual condition, amongst other things.
Jenny
why cant you identify as a woman? ive never identified as anything else...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 11:53:41 AM
why cant you identify as a woman? ive never identified as anything else...
R :police:
I totally agree Racheal...why would you say your TRANS???? I was actaully thinking about this a week ago when this post wasn't here. Trans is simply a process not a identification otherwise we legally would have a MtF on our ID's and social security.- which would suck...
if some had the option, i expect they would go for that....
yet still call themselves transsexual.... something they claim to be a medical condition....
ive never seen 'cancer' or 'diabeetes' on someones drivers licence.... or anyone identify as a 'diabetic' and thus different to the rest of society, but they cant help it *fake sobs*
R >:D
All,
When I first saw this thread I thought it would get out of control - the old 'I am better then you'.
We all have roughly the same condition but look at it differently. We are never going to agree on a comon way because we are all different. Take the statement from Racheal below.
Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 11:53:41 AM
why cant you identify as a woman? ive never identified as anything else...
R :police:
In my male body - I never identified as a woman and I still do not even though HRT is just 3 short weeks away for me. Ok - I accept my brain acts in a female way which is why I want to transform my body to become a woman. It really is semantics as we all end up in the same place - happy females with a transgendered past (or condition if you wish). Just be happy with out difference and support each other - there is no right way to do this.
Alice
Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 04:01:06 PM
if some had the option, i expect they would go for that....
yet still call themselves transsexual.... something they claim to be a medical condition....
ive never seen 'cancer' or 'diabeetes' on someones drivers licence.... or anyone identify as a 'diabetic' and thus different to the rest of society, but they cant help it *fake sobs*
R >:D
However if you expect respect and understanding to identify as "woman" for your own reasons, It might be a good idea to respect someone else's desire to identify as "trans". It doesn't matter why they wish to hang on to the label after transition, if it makes them feel comfortable, then we should value that, same with you (And others) wishing to -not- be identified as 'trans'. Respect for others, thats the magic word.
True, but i felt threatened by the angry attitude of the OP.
I guess its differnet for different people.
R :police:
Everything is different for different people, what's good for one might kill another, pleasure for one is pain for another, being a part of group X is the worst thing in the world, being a part of group X is the best thing that ever happened to me. There are very few universal truths.
I think of being a transsexual as going through the proper puberty. Once get you get through it should have right to being called by your proper gender with out labels attach to it. When girl becomes a woman they don't call her a post pubescence girl. Anyone who is GID will most likely go through this. I don't think the ones who completed this process means no harm to the ones that are at the trans stage when they just wanted to call a woman or a man. I'm sure they have not forgotten what it's like to being at the trans stage. That probably why they are here they know there are tough times a head of us who are correcting our bodies and social status.
Later,
Anna
Quote from: Rachael on January 11, 2008, 05:17:51 AM
True, but i felt threatened by the angry attitude of the OP.
I guess its differnet for different people.
R :police:
Hun, the OP is understandably quite frustrated, but she even said IN the OP
QuoteEveryone please try to be as respectful as you can be when posting your responses to this. I have a feeling this might get heated. That is not my intention But it is important to lay the ground rules for this. Please be respectful of yourself and others when responding. Thank you.
Sarcasm such as *fake sobs* isn't really called for.
-Everything- is different for different people ;) LOL
sarcasm am b&?
guess ill have to leave the forum then...
R >:D
I meant no sarcasm, its my favorite verbal tool, and I use it only when needed. I just said that you can't write any sort of universal truth based only on your experience. People are far too different for any of that to ever hold water.
Some of the best advice I ever got was "Speak for yourself, not for the group."
First off, woman is an age distinction. My mother is a woman, not me.
Female is a better frame of reference, its the same whether you're 9 or 90.
I was born female, no differently then any other female with a genital birth defect (and there are plenty of them that exclude IS conditions). That it was such a severe defect I was classified and raised incorrectly necesstated a process and a period in my life that pop culture and modern medicine refer to as "being transgendered" is not my fault.
Wheb I'm old and grey I can say I've always been female, I was just male bodied for a while.
Okay I don't intend to divert the topic of this thread but as a moderator of this site, I am going to remind you of rule number seven of the TOS:
Quote from: Site Rules7. Susan and her staff are the only authorized personnel that are permitted to tell someone to leave. If someone wants to discuss a subject you are not interested in either suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion.
So please unless you are Susan herself or a member of her staff, no one here has to tell other members or imply that they should leave. Review the site rules
here before posting. Thanks.
tink :icon_chick:
I will clarify:
This thread is not about this website -no one should be asked to leave or is being.
It is about our community in general.
Please be respectful of others.
The Topic is the quote "I'm not trans. anymore, I'm a woman".
My response to this quote is to feel anger arising.
It seems others feel the same way.
The point of this topic is to discuss why we feel this way when this is said.
And why people say it in the first place.
If I had to guess my personal reasons for feeling anger:
IT would be :
Probably due to the nature of the statement. It comes accross to me as flipant, egotistical, and non-empathetic of the feelings of others. As I have already stated it isn't what the person identifies as that I personally have a problem with, It's how they go about expressing it.
Labels are important. and so are the definitions of them. Without labels, we couldn't go shopping for pizza, we couldn't buy groceries.
Our community is so diverse that labels by and large simply don't work, and yet we need them anyway.
The problem comes across when people take for granted that everyone elses definition of a given label is the same as their own.
This usually isn't the case, and can create assumptions and raise tempers.
Even dictionary's do not help as they do not change ones own experience with a word.
Words like "woman" and "trans." mean different things to different people.
Some people feel very passionately about them.
Personally that would be a good renamer for this topic: "Please be careful with using fact statements and assertations when and with words known to have problems"
Sounds kinda longwinded, but that is indeed the problem.
Someone might say "I'm not trans, anymore, I'm a woman" and feel perfectly normal about it, not intending any harm by it or confusion.
To another that might be a powerful statement that says much about what the person means of themselves and others, -especially others.
As Tink has poined out, we need to be careful with speach.
ALL of us.
This has consequences for not taking words seriously.
They do have an effect on other people and we should not take them lightly or dismess them easily as non-important.
Anyone who disagrees with this, I would remind you of the use of pronouns, and how powerful an effect they have on you.
If I had to sum this up, I would say that I am sorry for coming across as angry, as it obviously brought up defensiveness in at least one person; However I do not wish to sugar coat this topic. this is a big deal, and makes many people angry(!): What we say has an effect on people. If you are going to use the statement as quoted for this topic, You ought to be aware that you are likely going to make many more than just slightly angry.
If you are willing to accept this, then that's your choice. However I would personally suggest finding a better way to express that, if your intention isn't to piss people off.
This statement make's people realy, realy angry. And an "I feel" statement about how you don't realy feel like a "such and such" anymore, might be a little cleaner and create less hostility.
That's the real reason for this post. We need to be able to get things done, as a community. and we need to be able to talk about things that some of us do that make others angry. otherwise, we will never be able to adress those feelings.
And the situation will keep occuring.
I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone, but feel free to PM me if you want to talk.
Quote from: Sarah on January 11, 2008, 10:36:14 PM
I will clarify:
This thread is not about this website.
It is about our community in general.
Please be respectful of others.
You are posting this thread in this website, aren't you? so as long as you keep doing that, your posts/threads must comply with the TOS
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on January 11, 2008, 10:39:46 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 11, 2008, 10:36:14 PM
I will clarify:
This thread is not about this website.
It is about our community in general.
Please be respectful of others.
You are posting this thread in this website, aren't you? so as long as you keep doing that, your posts/threads must comply with the TOS
tink :icon_chick:
I will edit the OP if you prefer.
EDIT: I went ahead and edited it anyway.
Look Sarah, People have a right to believe what they like, and express thier belief. Stating something that doesn't agree with you, doesn't make it wrong. So far, on this site, I've never seen anyone saying 'i'm a woman not trans' in an offensive way. Does saying your a woman mean you don't feel empathy for trans women? hell no! Your problem is with expression, 'flippant' 'egotistical' well to be honest, I've never seen that come up. its usually been a simple statement.
You say our community is too diverse for labels, well maybe thats why the community is so fragile.... nobody is willing to set labels, EVERY society, however diverse, requires labels, and structure. How can your society evolve, if there is no base to work from? squishy malleable jelly of definitions isn't a suitable foundation for moving a community forwards.
What is female?
what is transsexual?
what is transgender?
what is transwoman or transman?
if we can answer those, and believe me, there is an answer, then i believe there is no basis to your argument. Stating that one is female, is a basic premise for being diagnosed transsexual. If one does not, in the case of m2fs, feel that one is female, not part female, not a bit female, but a girl, a female, in everything but physical form, then how the hell did you transition? by telling the therapist that you were? well thats your problem... But i am Female, not half, not a quarter, i am FEMALE. no way in hell is some person on a forum dictating what i can call myself.
I transitioned. yes, But my body, and brain match. that doesn't make me trans ANYTHING....
R >:D
It's not a matter of right or wrong Racheal.
You completely misunderstand.
It's a matter of consequences.
"Right" is not at issue here.
Did you read some of the responses of people who feel as I do?
Try and put yourself in their shoes.
Use a little empathy
The "freedom of speach" excuse does not mean that speach has no consequences.
People can express themselves however they want.
I can call a cop an ass if I want.
I may get a ticket for "litering" though.
If you don't understand why saying that the way some people do angers some people, and why saying it differently might not, I'm not going to explain it to you.
"Right" is irrelevant. You want to piss people off? Go ahead.
You don't have to understand why, it pisses people off to respect that it does.
It has nothing to do with freedom of expression.
That has been clarified over and over again by different people in this thread.
It has to do with how that particualar statement makes people feel.
Sarah, there is also the obligation of the person who 'feels badly' to consider why the statement makes them feel that way. Not all the problem derives from the other's POV. A good bit may be due to my internal reaction that something she says might be making my own position look in some way 'bad.'
N~
I had a feeling this topic might get heated.
I didn't think it would get this heated.
I meant it as a way for people to discuss their feeling arround this particular frustraion that exists for some people and as a way for those involved to adress the needs of all involved.
It didn't realy turn out that way.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean it for this.
It seems that this sort of subject is best avoided rather than brought up.
If we focus on differences, then that is what we see.
If we focus on what we have in common, then that is also what we see.
I wish we could hammer out our differences so that we would have less so.
But, as I myself have forgotten, peoples differences don't depend on logic on all sides.
Which makes it a little difficult to have a logical discussion for any of it.
Oh well. My bad.
That sucks. *sigh* Labels bring up big issues don't they?
The subject is now on my blacklist.
I don't mind if we lock this thread. If someone wants to keep it open, then fine, but Please, please be respectful of other peoples differences of opinion. there is no good in fighting. We can't make the other person see as we do. or even understand.
I ought to have known better when I posted this. It seems I didn't with regard to this. But that's Ok. I do now. I learned my lesson. eeouch! LOL
Anyway. Perhaps we should just change the subject!
New Topic: Why flowers are Pretty! LOL
Sara
I think the problem comes Sarah, because you think we are similar than we really are.
I think, being a TS, is a truly week uniting point.
I think that there are many communities of opinions under the TS label, and these can
devellop a somewhat common response to the world.
But, there is no such thing as a TS worldview
and trying to hammer us all in the wrong shaped hole won't work.
What lesson have you thought you learned Sarah?
N~
I will respond to this in a new thread.
Didnt think this topic would get heated? who are you kidding?
QuoteIt's not a matter of right or wrong Racheal.
You completely misunderstand.
It's a matter of consequences.
"Right" is not at issue here.
Did you read some of the responses of people who feel as I do?
Try and put yourself in their shoes.
Use a little empathy
The "freedom of speach" excuse does not mean that speach has no consequences.
People can express themselves however they want.
I can call a cop an ass if I want.
I may get a ticket for "litering" though.
If you don't understand why saying that the way some people do angers some people, and why saying it differently might not, I'm not going to explain it to you.
"Right" is irrelevant. You want to piss people off? Go ahead.
You don't have to understand why, it pisses people off to respect that it does.
It has nothing to do with freedom of expression.
That has been clarified over and over again by different people in this thread.
It has to do with how that particualar statement makes people feel.
actually, its not freedom of speech, its freedom of feeling....
i am allowed to say what i want about MYSELF, you can say what you like about YOURSELF... when you start telling me how im supposed to feel about myself, and that i cannot express my feelings, you are doing the exact same oppressing and pissing off as you are currently blaming others of...
i dont WANT to put myself in the shoes of someone who identifies as a transexual, or transexual man or woman. im in my own shoes, and thier bloody comfy thanks!
id love to know WHAT pisses people off about someone saying how they are?
if you dont like it, sorry, but its my right to say that. I am a girl. whats so angering? and annoying? seriously id love to know, because all youve done so far, is tell us how much you hate it?
if this is some 'im preop and thier postop/ i cant pass, and they can pass. cisgender privilage jelousy thing, which i highly suspect it is, your the one with issues, not those who can move on from the trans community.
technically you can call a cop an ass, but its very unwise to do so, considering there doing thier job FOR you...
You know something? PEOPLE AREN'T THE SAME...
people are different, think differently, feel differently all around the world. Just because we share a medical problem, doesnt mean we will all think the same...
does every diabetic share the same world view?
R :police:
I think it even more than freedom of feeling, as feelings are private - unseen and unknown by others. Its freedom of expression, freedom of conscientious, and at times the greatest freedom of all, the freedom to make a mistake now and again.
And anyone who would walk up to someone who in my town has a Sig-Sauer P226 chambered for .357 rounds laying there on their hip is most likely not in their right mind.
Quote from: tekla on January 12, 2008, 04:52:56 PM
I think it even more than freedom of feeling, as feelings are private - unseen and unknown by others. Its freedom of expression, freedom of conscientious, and at times the greatest freedom of all, the freedom to make a mistake now and again.
And anyone who would walk up to someone who in my town has a Sig-Sauer P226 chambered for .357 rounds laying there on their hip is most likely not in their right mind.
:laugh: Do they all carry Sigs? Or do some of them carry Glocks? :D
Sara
SF cops are all Sig as standard issue, uniform uniforms, uniform weapons also. That way they all have the same ammo. That came about a few years ago when they got into a shoot out where they were out-gunned, and could not share ammo either.
Ah, that makes sense.
"throw me a clip! I'm out!" > "I've only got 9mm!" > "Crap! do you have a stun gun?" :D
LOL
Sara
Still, I'm suprised they took the Sig though... .357 is a big calliber, especially for the smaller cops. Hard to handle.
Its my understanding that they got some sort of deal from military surplus somehow. But the two cops I'm close to love the Sig. And, in the big city, with gang bangers who use full auto weapons, they want something with some 'stopping power.'
Maybe they should shoot two tazer's at a time, or even carry Big ass capacitors with live wires sticking out of them :-) (that's a lot worse than a tazer), think that'd stop anyone HAHA.
OR maybe stop derailiing the topic your loosing with gun talk?
btw, its also not a 226 when 357 ;) (229)
handguns have nothing to do with this topic. and i do actually agree its about freedom of feeling. As everyone in the world has the right to having thier feelings respected. And i think its time some of you leanred that, because one day, you will disregard someones feelings, who has a gun, or other weapon, who isnt a cop, and who WILL use it on you. and it will be your own fault....
R :police:
EDIT:
Altered the title.
now this topic makes even LESS sense....
R :police:
Well, not everything makes sense, and its a good thing. So 'ya answer the question as best you understand it and move on, or you don't answer it. Conversations, which the best threads are, go hither, dither and yon in real life and on the web also. Sometimes, some of the most interesting aspects are in the tangent and not the vector. If nothing else I now have something new to harass Officer H and Officer A with, and that's aways fun. Being a Beretta babe myself (a 'chick gun' as Officer A calls it) I'm not conversant with the S-S line.
But I've found all the responses to be interesting and enlightening, particularly for those of us who are TG, but not exactly GID, so its good to know what other people think who are on a different path.
Quote from: tekla on January 13, 2008, 02:48:28 PM
Well, not everything makes sense, and its a good thing. So 'ya answer the question as best you understand it and move on, or you don't answer it. Conversations, which the best threads are, go hither, dither and yon in real life and on the web also. Sometimes, some of the most interesting aspects are in the tangent and not the vector. If nothing else I now have something new to harass Officer H and Officer A with, and that's aways fun. Being a Beretta babe myself (a 'chick gun' as Officer A calls it) I'm not conversant with the S-S line.
But I've found all the responses to be interesting and enlightening, particularly for those of us who are TG, but not exactly GID, so its good to know what other people think who are on a different path.
Beretta?
Did you get the Px4?
I want one of those. ;D
Quote from: tekla on January 13, 2008, 02:48:28 PM
Well, not everything makes sense, and its a good thing. So 'ya answer the question as best you understand it and move on, or you don't answer it.
I think the issue is that its still about "becoming" a woman. The only TSs that become women transitioned as young girls. Rachel probably said it, or at least should of, if transition is about "becoming a woman", then you don't have GID.
quite....
and tekla, discussions have to make SOME sense... repeatedly changing her topic wont make this make any more sense...
and sure, if this is about BECOMING female, you shouldn't be transitioning in the first place...
I identify as female, because its how ive always felt. from being little to this very sleep morning >< if i wasnt 100% girl i wouldnt transition... it costs to much! :P
R :police:
All of life is only a process of becoming and being. For some its early, others late. After all, not everyone here had the choices at 20 that you do. Others I know money was never an issue. I don't know why some people wake up at 40 and suddenly think it. But I know it happens. For me, the way I am is what I was long ago. I found a way to deal with it, and make it work for me. The HRT/SRS was not really an option in the early 70s. I found a different way, that might not work for others, but its been good to me more or less. But I never had to fight about it, nor was I ever abused about it, so a more gentle way was possible. In being me I found more power then in just being just Yin or just Yang.
You have to play the game with the cards your dealt, and where you are + what time you are there make a huge difference. Denial is a pretty powerful thing too for some. But it runs out, and I feel for those who come upon it (or it comes upon them) late in life. Must be one hell of an adjustment.
If one more person uses the 70s to justify putitng off transition, ill scream! ive heard it 50 times in nearly as many posts.....
im not lucky, ive lost my entire family, i only transitioned now because after 3 suicide attempts, i HAD to...or die. Simple as...denial simply didnt cut it.
This is not about how old you are.
you simply cant become something you arnt already, maybe a fairly good copy, but not be it. if you arnt female to start with, you sure as hell cant become one.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 14, 2008, 02:36:25 AM
and sure, if this is about BECOMING female, you shouldn't be transitioning in the first place...
Not necessarily. You are correct,
if one accepts not only a particular view of GID but also a particular meaning for the words
become and
female. However, that's a big
if, and I have a feeling that the main issue here is that different people mean different things when they talk about 'being a woman' or 'becoming female'.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 14, 2008, 06:52:35 AM
Quote from: Rachael on January 14, 2008, 02:36:25 AM
and sure, if this is about BECOMING female, you shouldn't be transitioning in the first place...
Not necessarily. You are correct, if one accepts not only a particular view of GID but also a particular meaning for the words become and female. However, that's a big if, and I have a feeling that the main issue here is that different people mean different things when they talk about 'being a woman' or 'becoming female'.
Agreed.
I'm NOT female... otherwise I wouldn't need SRS and HRT to yes,
"become female."I'm NOT a woman either. Not quite. For me to say
"I'm a woman" after only 6-9 months of being perceived as a female would be like an eight-year-old girl proclaiming,
"I've ALWAYS been a woman inside!" As I mature now as a female, I'll become more and more comfortable with that title. Someone once said that when they told their therapist that they've always felt they're a woman, their therapist challenged her with,
"Prove it." That struck a chord for me. For me,
"being a woman" is more a product of the
Living, not the declaration. The
life experiences, moreso than an identity.
But these are my *personal* uses for the terms. I realize others may feel and use them differently.
~Kate~
Nicely done, Nfr & Kate.
'Being a woman' is not said, it is done. I am unaware that anyone becomes a woman without living the life of a woman. My partner was not a woman at age 10 or even at age 16, at least that is what she says.
The uses of language are usually divisive without some generally accepted, and acceptable, notion of what the other is talking about. I think your definitions are rather plain.
N~
Im female. i always have been. who _I_ am, is a 20 yearold female, with a genetal abnormality.
As Dr Jannet Buttler once said, 'One is not born a woman, one BECOMES a woman, and you dont need to start off female to achive that.'
Littlegirl
girl
youngwoman
woman
oldlady, etc,
are status markers, just like boys become men.
I was never a man, i never reached that social distinction, i was raised a boy. That does not change the simple fact that im female. and Transsexual, can be taken as one such social marker. the person is, regardless of being transsexual medically, either a male or female. F2m, or m2f (yes this is a binary topic os its relevant, if your androgyne and disagree go make your own im not trans im a me' topic)
I transitioned. I am a female now, in all but genetals, as we always debate, a woman who elected to ahve a penis made, would still be a woman, (unless thier f2m) the fact i had to artificially trigger my development to some extent. is simply a wonderful miracle of moderne medicine. It means i can outwardly look like me. The whole double layer story... one gender inside, look the other.
I was Born a female, regardless of the state of my genetals at the time, and my current state. I think, act, look, feel, weep, smile, scream, and sing, female. Now tell me why i want to call myself a transsexual, when im clearly female? Preop or post op, the state of my Knickers content is irelevant. How i got here is irelevant. Who i am hasnt changed, and never will. You may find yourself offended that im so secure in who i am. Fine. I dont want you to live my life. ITS MINE!
R :police:
Quotelanguage other than English
English is not the same to different people, especially of different educational backgrounds. The use of and meaning of English in different English speaking cultures varies widely.
I'd be curious to see how this conversation would play out among GGs, in ANY language.
N~
Quote from: redfish on January 14, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
I'm curious as to how much different this conversation would play out in a language other than English.
for a start, natal women wouldnt become women from being trans...
then again. Ive raised this topic with some friends once. Apparently, when you stop being 'weird' and are just a 'regular girl' then your not really a transsexual anymore.... they saw being a 'transsexual' as a social label, as someone who was visibly one gender, presented as the other and was adament that they were that gender. Ie, classic pathetic transsexual. When your 'regular' enough, and pass utterly socially, and visually. Then again, thier only 5 of these socalled 'ggs' the fabeled goddesses of knowlage of all things female....
in all honesty, i doubt the conversation would be much different if they were as versed in the subject as us, if not, like i said above is an example.
R :police:
Well for what it's worth, I don't call myself "trans" even now, before SRS. It's not to be "better than" or deny anything, I just want people to think of me as an individual person, as a "Kate," and not an "it" or category of people. People react VERY differently to being told, "I'm a transsexual" versus "I'm changing my sex and I'm called Kate."
People seem so eager to hinge their identities and justifications on these labels, and then become terrified when they're threatened. Or hurt. Or defensive. Or angry. So personally, I DO want to get away from thinking of myself as a transsexual. And frankly, from even thinking of myself as a woman. Non-TS people don't seem to obsess on these things. They just live their lives and go about their business.
And THAT'S my motivation for transitioning: I just don't want to think about all this gender identity and GID stuff anymore. I'm transitioning to erase that contrast and feel congruent and NOT be perpetually aware of my GID ("I'm a transsexual!") OR my gender identity ("I'm a female darn it!") 24/7 anymore.
~Kate~
I consider myself a woman with a transsexual condition. Being transsexual is simply the medical term for the condition I have. Just as I could also be a woman with a diabetic condition.
I never really identified myself as a "transsexual". I've identified myself as a woman. When I came out to myself, came out of denial, I finally admitted to myself that I had a transsexual condition.
Even after the surgeries, I will still have the medical condition called transsexuality, but it will be in remission.
And this I think applies to all trans people, it isn't exclusively male or female.
-Sandy (and I'm a damn PROUD woman!)
Sandy, very well said!