...people are atheists? ;)
this was said by a brilliant man, but i fail to recall his name. basically you're a sinner if you think for yourself. for example, if you act out of your own personal conscience instead of doing exactly what the "bible" says, your're pretty much &*%^ or else you're a christian. i think that's why they have so many followers. they do as they please, and beg for forgiveness, that explains alot of bad things in this world. learning anything contrary to your religious dogma is a sin. so my fellow susanigans, think about this. if you save a life with science, you're &^%$. notice how prayer changes nothing. if for petty religions, we would be extinct by now. in short, if you wanna worship anything, worship science. ha ha ha ha
sounds like you almost have yourself convinced. ;) your atheist vigor is awesome. :icon_flower:
They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
the Sinners are much more fun...
you know that only the good die young
Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 01:21:13 AM
...people are atheists? ;)
this was said by a brilliant man, but i fail to recall his name. basically you're a sinner if you think for yourself. for example, if you act out of your own personal conscience instead of doing exactly what the "bible" says, your're pretty much &*%^ or else you're a christian. i think that's why they have so many followers. they do as they please, and beg for forgiveness, that explains alot of bad things in this world. learning anything contrary to your religious dogma is a sin. so my fellow susanigans, think about this. if you save a life with science, you're &^%$. notice how prayer changes nothing. if for petty religions, we would be extinct by now. in short, if you wanna worship anything, worship science. ha ha ha ha
What does this have to do with atheism?
Except for Christian Scientists the most faithful believers still take sick kids to the hospital first, and pray second.
Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 01:21:13 AM
...people are atheists? ;)
this was said by a brilliant man, but i fail to recall his name. basically you're a sinner if you think for yourself. for example, if you act out of your own personal conscience instead of doing exactly what the "bible" says, your're pretty much &*%^ or else you're a christian. i think that's why they have so many followers. they do as they please, and beg for forgiveness, that explains alot of bad things in this world. learning anything contrary to your religious dogma is a sin. so my fellow susanigans, think about this. if you save a life with science, you're &^%$. notice how prayer changes nothing. if for petty religions, we would be extinct by now. in short, if you wanna worship anything, worship science. ha ha ha ha
Apparently that man was so brilliant that his name has been forgotten, or at least it isn't in the posting. Ignorance seems to be en vogue in the above proposition.
A whole lot of people have been taught some very bad religion, beliefs that the Creator waits to crush us like bugs, or that we are not allowed to examine something and draw our own conclusions. A government should not be allowed to wrap the Bible in the flag, as they do in America. It appeals to the narrowest of minds to come out of the woodwork and set themselves in judgment over all who don't agree with their thoughts, if they actually *do* think. It is amazing how smart a dimwit can sound when appealing to the worst in people by disguising it as the Word of God. I am sure that someone already believes that they can tell me where is my parking space in hell.
I am transsexual, remember?
A mind is a terrible thing to waste regardless of how it was wasted, especially if the person who has the mind knows better than to let it stagnate but lets others do all the thinking anyway. Was that the Third Reich, maybe?
I am not an atheist. I believe in the Supreme Being, and the Supreme Being wants me to think for myself. That is why I know that the Bible is a guide to my actions and the rule of my faith. It is not the only tool I have for my thinking. My mind is quite active at age 56.
Religion without science is blind and science without religion is lame. --- Albert Einstein, as I recall. Therefore, I see no conflict between religion and science.
I was given a mind with which to question all that is in the universes, a mind with which to question the Creator by asking for knowledge. I believe that the Creator fields all of our questions but we must ask and make our minds to be open and quiet while waiting for the answer.
Given that the Creator is the Supreme Being, and, in my beliefs, is eternal, the Uncaused Cause, the Creator's ways are not my ways because I am a temporary resident in this world and this world was created by the Supreme Being, as was all that is seen and unseen.
Prayer doesn't change things. It changes people, and people change things.
I have been blessed beyond my ability to comprehend. I have not sat home every night in sackcloth and ashes. Before I started my recovery with Alcoholics Anonymous I partied a lot and I never found it a sin. I never ate bread and water. I cooked and ate fine meals, for which I am grateful to the Creator.
And to whom is anyone else grateful for their blessings? Can another human make anyone's life better on their own, lacking the inspiration of the Supreme Being.
My religion tells me to learn about the world around me, about other people and their beliefs. And it tells me to be pious. And what is piety? It is nothing more than me living my beliefs and putting them into practice in my dealings with my fellow humans, and to be mindful of my Creator and living my life in a way consistent with my gratitude.
This is my personal belief, expressed in response to the proposition originally posted by Natasha. I feel no need to defend it so I won't.
Now who was that brilliant person again?
Wing Walker
Never Fly Without Support
Thank you, Wing Walker, for some common sense.
To all you spiteful atheists: hating other religions is not what defines an atheist. All it does is prove you're a roudy, rebellious kid that still needs to grow up.
Christianity has contributed much more good to this planet than any other force of man there ever was. Quit embarassing other atheists, like me, with your insolence and disrespect to good people.
No one has all the answers I happen to like the new questions every answer begs to be asked.
"Christianity has contributed much more good to this planet than any other force of man there ever was."
That might be difficult to prove. Except to the point that religion is a force of man, not the supernatural. That might well be true. But 'much more good'? I'm trying to recall an atheist Crusade, or an atheist inquisition, or an atheist witch trial, or an atheist 100 Years War - nope, can't do it.
And I don't even know any real atheists. Everyone when you get down to is, at best, an agnostic. In that, they are not about to deny that there are powers in the universe far beyond our understanding, and perhaps now and forever unknowable (gnostic - to know, agnostic - to not be able to know, or that knowing is impossible).
For the past decade now, almost unknown to the general public it seems, we have been receiving pictures from Hubble and Chandra of a deep space far beyond anything we ever envisioned. Pretty mind blowing stuff when you sit down and contemplate it. And the more of that we see, well, it does not lessen any understanding of the beauty of creation, but it does make some of the central tenants of Christianity a bit harder to come to terms with.
Richard Dawkins, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Basically we're all athiests. As a Christian you don't believe in Shiva or Anubis or Pan. I just happen to believe in one god less than you."
Quote from: tekla on January 14, 2008, 12:28:52 PM
I'm trying to recall an atheist Crusade, or an atheist inquisition, or an atheist witch trial, or an atheist 100 Years War - nope, can't do it.
How about an athiest scholarship fund? An atheist donation to the poor? An atheist charity? An atheist support grou? An atheist environmental activist group? An atheist nation that has come through to help this world both economically and diplomatically more than any other nation on the globe? Christianity fills all those gaps more than any other group or religion. In compassion, Christianity has proved its worth.
Sure they're judgmental ->-bleeped-<-s who are absolutely wrong, but atleast they give a damn about the world, which makes most christians better than atheists in my book.
QuoteAnd I don't even know any real atheists. Everyone when you get down to is, at best, an agnostic.
You need to get out more. I actively deny the presence of any devine beings. Note however, that one can be atheistic and spiritual, for example, some forms of Budhism.
Show me the romance in atheism.
I mean, if you think about it, isn't it rather dull?
No beauty in such a concept, if you ask me.
And not all theists submit to anyone.
But you're my girl. ;)
Since atheism is the same coin as theism - one a belief in believing, the other a belief in non believing - the true counter to religion is not atheism, but agnosticism. So, separate that out and the world looks quite different.
How about an atheist (agnostic) scholarship fund? - Most scholarships are not based on religion. The are based on the parents job, company, union, fraternal affiliations and the like.
An atheist (agnostic) donation to the poor? - The welfare system of the United States has no religious / or non-religious qualifications (until Bush).
An atheist (agnostic) charity? - Medecins Sans Frontieres
An atheist (agnostic) support grou[p]? - Sure, easy, The Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton for one. The American Association for the Advancement of Science for another. Though Brookhaven and Los Alamos National Labs rank up there too.
An atheist (agnostic) environmental activist group? - I was not aware that the Sierra Club was religiously based, and most of the deep ecology people seem closer to Gia than Jesus, and Gia is not a god/religion in the traditional sense - except in the oldest traditions we know. I'm sure Earth First is not holding prayer meetings either. There are several people who hold Christianity in some way responsible for the ecological crisis. See: Lynn White, "The Historical Roots of Our Ecologic Crisis", published in the journal Science in 1967.
An atheist (agnostic) nation that has come through to help this world both economically and diplomatically more than any other nation on the globe? - If you mean by this, the United States of America, not only will many people argue that point - like say, oh, most of the people in the Mid-East, but our government is not theist or atheist, its neutral, if not void on the subject. The word "god" does not appear once in the Constitution of the United States, though it does forbid a state religion, and religious tests for public office.
And since, neither theism or atheism can be proven, the only rational choice is to say, "I don't/can't know." Not that tossing some money to a college student in some way makes up for the Spanish Inquisition at any rate. And if the goal is romance, one would be better suited to finding a lover, not a god.
Quote from: Nero on January 14, 2008, 01:22:57 PM
Show me the romance in atheism.
I mean, if you think about it, isn't it rather dull?
No beauty in such a concept, if you ask me.
And not all theists submit to anyone.
But you're my girl. ;)
I'd have to disagree. I'm not atheist myself (reincarnationist Wiccan) but think about it. If you believe you get only this one chance, this one shot at a life and some meaning, you're going to value it much higher than somebody who sees life purely as a punishment or as a trial or whatever. We all want to leave a legacy, and you're probably going to work that much harder at leaving said legacy if you believe that that's all of you that will remain.
As for beauty, think about it. Every sunrise since the earth formed has been unique, a fleeting thing of beauty that you're lucky enough to see just once, if at all. It's the impermanence of things that give them beauty and meaning, otherwise they just become ... commonplace. A life lived to the full is beautiful exactly because it's rather rare. What motivates that fullness hardly matters.
"I used to tell people I was an atheist, but then I realized I don't have that much faith in anything."
Wicked funny, now I have to clean my desk because I just spit coffee all over it. But, as I was saying, atheists have faith in not having faith - a belief in not believing. Since neither can be proven, or disproved then saying "I don't know" seems to make the most rational sense. Of course, rational is not exactly on topic here is it?
Quote from: lady amarant on January 14, 2008, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on January 14, 2008, 01:22:57 PM
Show me the romance in atheism.
I mean, if you think about it, isn't it rather dull?
No beauty in such a concept, if you ask me.
And not all theists submit to anyone.
But you're my girl. ;)
I'd have to disagree. I'm not atheist myself (reincarnationist Wiccan) but think about it. If you believe you get only this one chance, this one shot at a life and some meaning, you're going to value it much higher than somebody who sees life purely as a punishment or as a trial or whatever. We all want to leave a legacy, and you're probably going to work that much harder at leaving said legacy if you believe that that's all of you that will remain.
As for beauty, think about it. Every sunrise since the earth formed has been unique, a fleeting thing of beauty that you're lucky enough to see just once, if at all. It's the impermanence of things that give them beauty and meaning, otherwise they just become ... commonplace. A life lived to the full is beautiful exactly because it's rather rare. What motivates that fullness hardly matters.
I get what you're saying, but what about the creation part? I mean, by accident? No romance in that.
Quote from: Nero on January 14, 2008, 03:06:27 PM
I get what you're saying, but what about the creation part? I mean, by accident? No romance in that.
Ah, but doesn't that give us all the more room to create ourselves?
"Spawned from the pools of plasm and brine, they crawled out, reaching ever to become more and greater than that to which they had been born."
Horrible melodrama aside, that's kinda romantic - all noble and stuff. ;)
Quotebut what about the creation part? I mean, by accident? No romance in that.
Infinity is a difficult idea to comprehend. Sometimes you just have to understand that there is more than you know now and possibly more than you will know in your life time. You can however add a little to the collective human knowledge and hope it will move forward in understanding. Hence the term afterlife.
I think there is romance in being a freak occurrence.
Quote from: Nero on January 14, 2008, 01:22:57 PM
Show me the romance in atheism.
I mean, if you think about it, isn't it rather dull?
No beauty in such a concept, if you ask me.
And not all theists submit to anyone.
But you're my girl. ;)
Good to see you again, Nero.
Wing Walker
Quote from: Pica Pica on Today at 05:09:29 PM
QuoteI think there is romance in being a freak occurrence.
You would. Smiley
But let us examine the alternatives to intelligent design. A big bang? Now there's a dull thought.
And then that positively stomach churning 'descended from apes' thing. Such an affront to my sensibilities. *shudder*
And Tasha, babygirl, thinking men choose for themselves what to believe. Wink
Aetheists HUH! Religion HUH!
Transsexualism YAY!!!!
QuoteA big bang? Now there's a dull thought.
If the evidence points in another direction, we'll adapt our understanding. Dull? It's absolutely amazing. Think of all that stuff inside something that becomes a singularity and within an instant expands to form all the matter in our universe. Explosive stuff!
Quote
And then that positively stomach churning 'descended from apes' thing. Such an affront to my sensibilities. *shudder*
Actually, the evidence suggests that mankind and apes descended from a common ancestor. It was not an ape. Even the fossils that we have of prehistoric people (who are not human) are not very ape like. It may be that the apes descended from creatures much more human like than we care to admit ;) That's not a bad thing. I envy the apes sometimes. They don't waste all their resources trying to kill each other.
An atheist has no faith or belief. Atheism is a lack of belief in a divine being. It's like believing that there is no salt on your french fries. The salt is either there or it isn't.
Cindi
Except some atheists take it more personal than that.
I'm fond of the apes, but they do put their resources into killing people who are not in their group. They kill foreigners out of fear too. Sad really.
QuoteIt's like believing that there is no salt on your french fries. The salt is either there or it isn't.
Not exactly, it could be in another dimension. ;)
It is little wonder why some non believers take it personal when they are affronted daily by a barrage of fundamentalist fodder. I don't blame them much for reacting. I know many atheists who do not however. They merely shake their heads and wonder why people can be so silly to do some of the things that they do.
In terms of resources Pica. I hear you and understand what you are saying. But apes do spend time collecting food and enjoying the sun. Here in the US, we have managed to "spend" our collecting food time by creating massive debt towards our military actions. Indeed, the productivity of our great nation counts for naught in many respects, for we squander it in such a non productive way.
Cindi
I read some of the comments here about atheist's, and i am very offended. Don't even get me started on what i think about YOUR RELIGION. I'm an atheist and and i wouldn't say I'm proud of it, but i have more morals than any christian.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 14, 2008, 11:23:14 PM
It's absolutely amazing. Think of all that stuff inside something that becomes a singularity and within an instant expands to form all the matter in our universe. Explosive stuff!
Yes, the opening and closing eye of Brahma, cycles of the ages all in the blink of an eye.
QuoteActually, the evidence suggests that mankind and apes descended from a common ancestor. It was not an ape. Even the fossils that we have of prehistoric people (who are not human) are not very ape like. It may be that the apes descended from creatures much more human like than we care to admit ;) That's not a bad thing. I envy the apes sometimes. They don't waste all their resources trying to kill each other.
Again, much to be said for the apes. They will kill and chimps even fight 'wars' over foraging grounds. But they have yet to develop 'rocks of mass destruction.' LOL And they do seem to understand their profoundly contingent selves better than we do, who strut about often enough with an individual thinking that he is sufficient entirely unto himself.
I don't know that it requires a god or even a Goddess (altho I have known Her for forty years and truly do love Her) for someone to see the beauty of the universe, the earth and the family of living and sentient creatures, but ... More's the merrier, does it hurt to invite Another, or 9000 Others, to join with us?
Nichole
Quote from: Diane on January 15, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I read some of the comments here about atheist's, and i am very offended. Don't even get me started on what i think about YOUR RELIGION. I'm an atheist and and i wouldn't say I'm proud of it, but i have more morals than most christians.
fixed
Quote from: Diane on January 15, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I read some of the comments here about atheist's, and i am very offended. Don't even get me started on what i think about YOUR RELIGION. I'm an atheist and and i wouldn't say I'm proud of it, but i have more morals than any christian.
ditto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZuknsnphEU
Before I go, a morsel for thought........
"God favors the bigger battalions"---Voltaire
God cares not for human history. We do that ourselves, whatever name we march to. Faith is about the individual and infinity. I have no say in your conversation (or lack of) with God. It is easy to not believe (there are alot of facts, but all the facts in the world do not add up to truth). Believe me, as a thinking animal, I have been through all of that. I am no longer a Christian, but I am not an athiest.
Do not watch the talking heads on TV or listen to college professors and judgemental Christians and say "what fools these ignorant Christians". They don't matter. We all die, that's what this is all about, anyways...what happens when I, (your name here), pass from this Earth? Only you can answer that question.
It is not fear of punishment. It is a need springing from deep inside that there is a reason for our suffering. And a happy ending to this roller coaster story called the human life, however long it may be.
Me, personally...despite all the great minds of religion, philosophy, literature and science that I encountered and read and studied...in the end, only I can figure that out. And I have no idea. It's a big Universe.
Do not judge others. Each of us will be judged in the end anyways...I still think, and wonder. Dogma, religious or scientific, cannot prevent the human mind from thinking. We were made to think. But I also choose to believe, as Einstein said, "just in case"
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus
Atheism is just another belief system. It's a belief system based on non-belief of other systems.
I prefer no belief systems, it makes life less complicated.
In my view, all thinking people should have an open mind knowing that it is not possible to know it all, either through science or through faith... this is not fence-sitting (as though taking sides is a virtue!!!)..... this is being open-minded realizing that the stream of knowledge and discoveries is unending and science is not the only source for this. However, it is my experience that followers of science seem to be more open-minded than those who profess faith in a particular religion.
to be honest, i am an atheist and I find the atheist rhetoric dull, unhelpful and petty.
Quote from: Jeannette on January 29, 2008, 12:20:16 AM
In my view, all thinking people should have an open mind knowing that it is not possible to know it all, either through science or through faith... this is not fence-sitting (as though taking sides is a virtue!!!)..... this is being open-minded realizing that the stream of knowledge and discoveries is unending and science is not the only source for this. However, it is my experience that followers of science seem to be more open-minded than those who profess faith in a particular religion.
What she said. Are we behaving like the men and women of all ages, thinking there is nothing else to know?
Brutal.