One of the questions I occupy my mind with to avoid thinking about something that might actually be useful is: given that I've done most of the M2F transition stuff and now basically live as a woman, why do I consider myself non-binary?
Recently, I saw a topic on Susan's with a title that was something like "What have you done to be more feminine?" (I can't find it any more.)
And I thought: why would I do that? I'm not trying to be feminine, I'm trying to be me. And if I adopt or try out things that our society calls "feminine," it's because I like them, not because I want to look or particularly feel feminine.
The feeling I get from a lot of the discussions in the usual transfemme groups and blogs and such is that being a trans woman means trying to fit some image of what a "woman" is. But I've spent my life rebelling against the demand for me to fit somebody else's idea of what I'm supposed to be. And the past 20 years have been me trying to strip away all of that mishegoss and find out who I am underneath all that. I think that's why I've noticed that I often don't feel at home in binary trans femme groups, and feel much more at home among enbies.
The funny thing is that on the whole the cis women I hang out with don't seem to be trying to be "feminine" any more than I am. So maybe by not particularly trying to be "feminine" I'm more like a "real woman" (whatever that is) than a lot of trans women.
This hit me right in the feels.
I agree 100% and often wonder along similar lines.
I have a rather unique perspective of male failing for decades. Presenting as male as I can and being misgendered. In person, on the phone, and even walking up to clam shack as the only customer there!
I find that the more feminine my presentation, the better service I get.
Sometimes I think there wouldn't be any "Karens" if they got treated like I did.
I'm in New Bedford looking at the menu board of a Fish and Chips place half an hour before they were to open and they said they could take my order right now! That sort of thing. It may help that I "look good" as a female. Having me there eating Fish and Chips is good advertising!
Marion
Hi Asche I hope this post finds you okay. It seems you are a little concerned? You mention in your post;
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMOne of the questions I occupy my mind with to avoid thinking about something that might actually be useful is: given that I've done most of the M2F transition stuff and now basically live as a woman, why do I consider myself non-binary?
When I changed my life around, Feb 1989, as far as I was aware there no 'non-binary' term. There was only male and female. I suppose one could have created it from the current English language at the time. At the time I just had a one track mind and that was I wanted or longed to be a female and in Feb 1991, I had my surgery. Not realising at the time I was now a female. In other words I lived my life in a binary world. I was not influenced by all the other terms that are so prevalent in today's 'transgender world'.
Another trait in my personality is I'm a geek, nerd or just a logical person. This may have steered me in the direction of being binary in nature. The world is binary in fact around 95% its either male or female. With the other 5% being 'transgender' or 'intersex'. Don't quote me on those figures. They are a rough guideline only. In other words nature or the 'environment' stuffed up.
I know that Gender Identity is innate and can vary from extreme masculinity to extreme femininity. I know within myself that I'm not either of those two cases, why? From a young age I never expressed myself as being female, not withstanding that if I did, it could have been disastrous for me. There were others that would verbally and physically say they were female, whereas I did not. In other words, unconsciously or not, I placed myself in the binary world of being a female.
Maybe Gender Role is also at play here. However, I do not consider myself 'non-binary' regardless of whether its Gender Identity or Gender Role. I'm just a female, regardless of my appearance or mannerisms. I'm not discounting, removing facial hair and breasts growing as a result of HRT and that is what people see. What they did not see and to this day, they do not see what is downstairs.
Which brings me to the point where you are in your 'transition'. If you have not completed the final stages of your 'transition' then this may lead you to think that you are 'non-binary'. I cannot say whether you are or are not 'non-binary' and you and only you can determine that.
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMRecently, I saw a topic on Susan's with a title that was something like "What have you done to be more feminine?" (I can't find it any more.)
I believe the topic you are looking for is:
Ways to be feminine in guy mode (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,247726.0.html)
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMAnd I thought: why would I do that? I'm not trying to be feminine, I'm trying to be me. And if I adopt or try out things that our society calls "feminine," it's because I like them, not because I want to look or particularly feel feminine.
You hit the proverbial nail on the head with this comment. There is not much that I can say that would improve on what you have said. However I will leave you with this little story.
I have worn evening gowns for a night out on the town to tracky dacks when I was at university and just recently after a swimming session in the evening, I had a shower put a long nightgown (knee length) on, put a long sleeve blouse over the top, underwear and a pair of leggings and of course a cardigan (its winter here at the moment).
In other words as soon as I got home I was ready for bed. Yeah real daggy and my wet hair on the outside to boot and of course hug boots for footwear. On my way home I pulled into the gas station to get some milk and lo and behold the door was opened for me by a gentlemen, this is the country or rural area mind you. Feminine hardly! No makeup and no painted nails either. I thanked him for what he did.
So I do what I want to do regardless of what others think I should do.
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMThe feeling I get from a lot of the discussions in the usual transfemme groups and blogs and such is that being a trans woman means trying to fit some image of what a "woman" is. But I've spent my life rebelling against the demand for me to fit somebody else's idea of what I'm supposed to be. And the past 20 years have been me trying to strip away all of that mishegoss and find out who I am underneath all that. I think that's why I've noticed that I often don't feel at home in binary trans femme groups, and feel much more at home among enbies.
I have never belonged to any 'trans' groups' whatsoever and I never will. The only exception and that is Susan's Place and the only reason I'm here is to pass on my knowledge and to help others. In addition I'm not 'trans' anything and I will never be. I just another female in society and that will never change.
I have never worried about misogyny or feminism being apart of me. I guess there never was any of that in me to begin with. I just went about life just being me and if discovered that there was something 'wrong with me', I would change to become a better person.
If you belong to the 'enbies' and it makes you happy, then good for you.
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMThe funny thing is that on the whole the cis women I hang out with don't seem to be trying to be "feminine" any more than I am. So maybe by not particularly trying to be "feminine" I'm more like a "real woman" (whatever that is) than a lot of trans women.
Again you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. You are just another female in society, welcome to the club!
Take care and I hope I have given you some food for thought, to think over.
Love and HugsSarah BOfficial Greeter@Asche
Hey Asche -
I do think sometimes people try to be something ... and that's called an "affectation."
In the long run, we can only be ourselves. And that doesn't really have much to do with gender or transition at all. Just being a person.
The only caveat to that, as part of transition there are some learned gender-specific cues that may have been drummed into you when you were presenting as another gender. Cleaning those up takes a bit of effort, but with a bit of practice... you go back to just being yourself.
Because when it does come to transition, whether it be MTF, FTM, or to non-binary, the whole point is just to be comfortable in your own skin. So whomever you are and whatever you do... then that's all we need!
So (easier said than done) just try to block out all that noise and keep being you. You're the only you we've got and so you're a precious resource! 😘
Love,
Allie
Yes. I often wonder that while I am trying to be more feminine that is it really me or am I just playing an act. I am me either way. Like you said do cis women try to be more fem, or do they just live life.
I can understand there are somethings that a man transitioning to become the woman she is, or the woman that is transforming into the man he is or anything in between that there their are some things that are learned from just living in that specific gender and those life time of experiences.
But I often wonder if I was born a woman would I still be trying to be more fem and try to learn more or be better at x, y, z etc... or would I just be me an go through life without ever batting an eye about alot of those things we try to get better at like make up, or walking more feminine, being more conscious about ones outfits etc.
Quote from: imallie on June 25, 2024, 03:37:26 PMHey Asche -
I do think sometimes people try to be something ... and that's called an "affectation."
In the long run, we can only be ourselves. And that doesn't really have much to do with gender or transition at all. Just being a person.
The only caveat to that, as part of transition there are some learned gender-specific cues that may have been drummed into you when you were presenting as another gender. Cleaning those up takes a bit of effort, but with a bit of practice... you go back to just being yourself.
Because when it does come to transition, whether it be MTF, FTM, or to non-binary, the whole point is just to be comfortable in your own skin. So whomever you are and whatever you do... then that's all we need!
So (easier said than done) just try to block out all that noise and keep being you. You're the only you we've got and so you're a precious resource! 😘
Love,
Allie
Everyone has chime in excellent points.
@imallie I agree completely! While many transgender individuals share similar experiences, it's crucial to recognize that each person's journey is deeply personal and unique. Some may navigate the process of adjusting to their authentic self with relative ease, while others, encounter significant challenges.
For me, unlearning the subconscious societal norms that were ingrained in my mind has been particularly daunting at times. It's a process of deprogramming myself from messages that don't align with who I truly am.
Your message resonates because it captures the essence of striving for authenticity and self-acceptance, not just within the context of gender identity and transition, but in all aspects of life. It's about reclaiming our true selves from external expectations and embracing our individuality with courage and compassion.
Quote from: Asche on June 25, 2024, 08:29:34 AMThe funny thing is that on the whole the cis women I hang out with don't seem to be trying to be "feminine" any more than I am. So maybe by not particularly trying to be "feminine" I'm more like a "real woman" (whatever that is) than a lot of trans women.
Feminine is a just a label made up to classify 'things'.. a pretty piece of lace is 'feminine' or a bow on something.. it is not a woman or female, for those are actual biological entities. Sure, you can classify a woman (or a man, or anything) "feminine".. it doesn't really mean anything. Trying to 'be feminine' is an act and not something to aspire to if your actual goal is to align your gender to your internal view. As feminine is not female. I am a woman, I was always a woman, I presented as a male because that is what I was told I was.. That was wrong. Some people called me 'feminine' back then, they said I was an 'effeminate male'.. haha.. it's just a label.
Lots of women are definitely not feminine. (think of Ripley in Aliens killing all those ET's or many other examples of tough women in tough situations) They are still women though, still female. They are still themselves.
The goal of transition is not to become something else, it is to align your inner image of your gender with your outer presentation. This should alleviate your dysphoria for your situation, body and/or social standing. It sort of makes me mad when tryped out stereotypes of women are hailed by some people claiming to be transgender as goals - Things like guides on 'how to laugh like a woman' or 'how to stir your coffee like a woman'... I mean, come on, that stuff is actually laughable isn't it. This extends to the whole 'passing' issue.
Passing has to be the single most stress inducing trope that has circulated in transgender circles. Please esxcuse me, but passing is for people who are acting out a role. Who are trying to deceive someone, their audience. For drag artists and cross-dressers, passing probably is important. After all that is what the goal is, to live (for variable time-frames) as a woman, sometimes for entertainment, sometimes for personal reasons.
I know this is controversial, but if you are a woman assigned wrongly at birth to a gender that does not align with who you know you to be. That, this is causing you internal turmoil and agony and causing depression and serious anxiety then (and I ask rhetorically) what does passing matter? If living your life as a female (or conversely as a male) makes your life better - why are you worried about what tights to wear, or what lipstick looks good on thin lips.. Woman come in all shapes and sizes, all degree's of assigned beauty and statures. You think your hands are too big.. well so do about 10% of all females.. your voice too deep.. yeah, thats a concern for a lot of women.. (not transwomen, or any other classification, just women as a whole, the other 50% of the population).. You think your too tall, then I can show you hundreds of models that earn money off being over 6ft6in.. every trait you think is 'wrong' or makes you 'unpassable' is being faced by thousands of other women cis or not.. yet they are not worrying if they pass.
So, anecdote time.. My voice has always been rather high for a guy, low for a girl.. that in-between androgynous tone. However, I never got mis-gendered on the phone with it before transition. I tried raising my voice slightly and did some work here and there.. it got better, luckily it was not too bad anyway. So, it worked for me and it never got mentioned when I was living as a female. Over time, it slipped back into something comfortable, something that was mine.. I like my voice. However, I got a call from some spammer.. they called me sir. I got upset. Another call a day later or so from a life insurance company, cold call.. 'Sir, can I interest you in.. '. This shook me, upset me and I felt really low. I told my friend about this. My cis-female friend who is 6ft and had 3 kids.. I only got to the first example and she said 'Oh my gosh, yeah, it happens to me all the time, they think I am my husband!'... She started laughing about it.. like this is something that happened to her a lot! for all her life.. I then listened to her voice.. gosh yeah, it was deeper than mine. I mean.. gosh.. it was. I then realised that passing is not something anyone should aspire too, instead being you.. is all that matters. If being you requires you to transition then do it. If it doesn't, then this is not the road for you.. and if you just want to play a woman on the weekend.. go for it, there is nothing wrong in that but that is not baggage a transsexual person needs to deal with. Instead be concerned with taking steps to alleviate your dysphoria from your gender and align your inner person with your outer persona.. that is they key to being happy and finding peace. I wish inner peace to you all.
Some great points raised so far in this thread. It's a well known fact that people, particularly women, are influenced by images and concepts promoted by companies and, well, influencers. It's the basis of advertising and social media, and trans people are no exception.
Gender incongruence leads us to look for the ideals we need to attain congruence, and sometimes these are more than we actually need. We all have different levels of incongruence, and this means we have different needs to become congruent enough to reduce our dysphoria.
Humans are gregarious, and most of us want to fit in to our societies. Commonly, this pressures us to fit into one of the binary sex roles, so beyond what we need to control dysphoria, we also try to find social acceptance.
Any time we exceed what we need, we are going past 'being our selves' but this is seen as needed to find peace. I found myself decades ago, but only realised it in recent years. But I had to exceed what I needed to control dysphoria, partly because my surgeon required I live as a woman for a period before surgery, and partly so family and society would more easily accept me.
Hugs,
Allie
Quote from: SoupSarah on June 26, 2024, 11:56:27 PMPassing has to be the single most stress inducing trope that has circulated in transgender circles. Please esxcuse me, but passing is for people who are acting out a role. Who are trying to deceive someone, their audience. For drag artists and cross-dressers, passing probably is important. After all that is what the goal is, to live (for variable time-frames) as a woman, sometimes for entertainment, sometimes for personal reasons.
I know this is controversial, but if you are a woman assigned wrongly at birth to a gender that does not align with who you know you to be. That, this is causing you internal turmoil and agony and causing depression and serious anxiety then (and I ask rhetorically) what does passing matter? If living your life as a female (or conversely as a male) makes your life better - why are you worried about what tights to wear, or what lipstick looks good on thin lips.. Woman come in all shapes and sizes, all degree's of assigned beauty and statures. You think your hands are too big.. well so do about 10% of all females.. your voice too deep.. yeah, thats a concern for a lot of women.. (not transwomen, or any other classification, just women as a whole, the other 50% of the population).. You think your too tall, then I can show you hundreds of models that earn money off being over 6ft6in.. every trait you think is 'wrong' or makes you 'unpassable' is being faced by thousands of other women cis or not.. yet they are not worrying if they pass.
I disagree. Passing to me means to be perceived as a cis woman by practically everybody who doesn't know my past. It has nothing to do with how we dress, whether we use makeup or not or if we show any stereotypically female behavior or not. And it certainly has nothing to do with acting out a role.
Somebody living as a female, presenting as a female and being treated by others as a female doesn't pass in my opinion if many others will recognize that she was AMAB. That is fine for many of us, it is still way better and more satisfying than living our lives as a dude, but for many of us the ultimate success criteria would be to be invisible as a cis woman.
We all have some sort of 'gender radar' where we are looking for clues and categorize others we see into male or female. And that is looking at multiple data points, not just one single one. So, someone who is very tall and has a deep voice and large hands, ribcage and shoulders and narrow hips and maybe a slightly receding hairline will probably be clocked as trans because of that combination of those features. And it is only natural that we, as well as any other cis women, would try to hide them as much as possible. That is not everybody's cup of tea, but there is nothing wrong with those trying to do so.
I would also like to mention that the desire to be feminine depends on one's stage in transition. Early in transition it is important, it can be a source of euphoria, it is exciting. Later in transition, when we have settled in in our new gender role like the OP did, it usually becomes less important to us.
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMSomebody living as a female, presenting as a female and being treated by others as a female doesn't pass in my opinion if many others will recognize that she was AMAB.
Ouch.. So, to you, it makes no difference if that person is trans or not.. IF they do not fit your very narrow criteria of a 'woman' then they are an outcast and should be very worried about that? I will say again, ouch!
To me, a woman who lives as a female, presents as a female .... IS A FEMALE.. as I said, what has passing got to do with it? They are living an authentic life and if they do encounter any animosity, then it is the people presenting that animosity that are at fault and not the woman under scrutiny..
"... and being treated as others as a female.." to continue your quote.. is being treated as a female not the goal here? I thought it was. Is that not how society should react to someone. To offer them the respect and dignity of enabling them to go about their lives in a lawful but authentic way? as I said, what has passing got to do with it, especially if, as your hypothetical creations is stated to be, treated by others as a female?
I don't believe Iztaccihuatl was talking about the validity of someone's gender if they're "passing," but rather the ease with which they can pass thorough a cisnormative world. In a perfect world, all that would matter is what's inside us but in truth, the most gender-feeling person out there could feel their true gender to be valid right until the final hit from someone who perceives them to be trans that renders them unconscious in a dark alley. I imagine very few trans people are so secure in their chosen gender that they can confront these haters without even a slight wish that they "passed" better in that case.
It stinks that we live in a world in which others think they can decide if we're valid and in which there are real consequences in the event that they don't. Me? I'd like to be myself at all times, an interesting hybrid of male and female, fully female at times but not at others. But at this point in my transition, I wish to be able to hide all traces of my past and my assigned gender when needed, as it makes like a lot easier in a cruel world.
PS: Julia Serano's excellent book, "Whipping Girl" goes deeply into sexism and gender. It's a great read.
I confidently pass,but prefer to use gender neutral rest rooms.
I shop for groceries at Stew Leonard's and found they have a gender neutral rest room upstairs in in the takeout dining area!
Quote from: Courtney G on June 27, 2024, 06:04:58 PMIt stinks that we live in a world in which others think they can decide if we're valid and in which there are real consequences in the event that they don't. Me? I'd like to be myself at all times, an interesting hybrid of male and female, fully female at times but not at others. But at this point in my transition, I wish to be able to hide all traces of my past and my assigned gender when needed, as it makes like a lot easier in a cruel world.
I was not mis-understanding what Heidemarie was saying, rather emphasising the horrible gatekeeping we do to ourselves.
Believe it or not, I live in the real world as a female who once was AMAB... I totally understand the dangers. However, do you not agree, that by imposing our own constraints as to 'what passes' we are allowing those who would do us harm more ammunition and more leg room to flex their neurotic and idiopathic dogma's onto society.
If we are saying 'we don't pass, we are not valid'.. then how the heck are we expecting anyone else too be our ally or stand with us against such hate?
Ideal worlds do not exist.. neither did gay marriage in most parts of the world.. things change, but they only change when people demonstrate that being transsexual is normal. That it is possible to be born with wrong chromosomes, wrong biology and that the cure is to transition.
A long time ago, when I went to school (yeah, slates and chalkboards!).. I had a friend who was born with a disfigured left hand. He hid his hand from everyone. Even owning a prosthetic one - this rubber facsimile, lifeless and obviously fake, wobbled unnervingly out of his left blazer sleeve. He basically clung onto it, with his real disfigured hand. One day after school, we went to his place to look at his new computer.. he ditched his fake hand and started using his real digits to operate the keyboard as we played games and coded.. It was probably the first time I saw this guy actually laugh. It took a while, years actually, but eventually this guy realised that the fake hand was not him. Encouraged by me and the rest of his friends he started a school year without the prosthetic. It garnered a few curious questions.. a few quick jibes too.. but overall, nothing big. Everyone knew he had something up with his hand, when it was seen, it soon became normal. It soon was not a thing..
When I started on my journey of transition.. I needed to be authentic.. at that time, so I thought, it was to be undetectable as anyone who was AMAB. I spent hours doing hair, makeup, voices.. padding out clothing. Buying all types of styles and colours.. nail varnish and hair removal and on and on and on... all trying to be something I was not. All trying to be the rubber hand.. the hand that everyone would be able to tell was not real..
When I remembered my friend (and some great counselling too!).. I realised that I was good enough. I was a woman regardless how I look or talk or think or anything else.. I am a woman - why would I be doing this to myself if I wasn't.. I did not get any thrill out of clothing or makeup, instead it was only camouflage to enable me to pass.. Then, realising that this was fruitless and would result in a persona that was not me, I relaxed. I just became me. I allowed myself to pass. It was hard.. I had many times I looked in the mirror and screamed "YOU LOOK LIKE A DUDE!".. but I didn't, not really. No one does..
A little after realising that passing was fake - I met my future husband. A straight guy, only into women.. He was attracted to me physically as well as mentally. He went on to fall in love with me and we got married. He can only see me as a woman.. however, I show him some photo's of the time when I was 'trying to pass' and he recoils in disgust.. 'that's not you'.. he says.. 'that is someone trying to look like you'. I guess he never fell in love with the rubber hand?
The idea of transition is to get to a place where you are at peace with yourself and your gender expression and to then continue living like that for the rest of your days. It is not about trying to be anything perfect or passing or even playing a role.. Trying to be someone you are not..
is not going to work long-term. It will not bring you peace. At some point you need to accept who you are and love yourself. cliché I know.. but it is so very true.
SoupSarah has it right. Massive wisdom in their posts. Big kudos.
Hi Everyone I do not do passing, I do not do stealth and I do not do affectation (thanks Allie for that word), why? Passing, Stealth and Affectation are just acting to me. Period.
I have always said somewhere, "be confident and just be yourself", so in other words, I'm not acting.
I never 'transitioned', again why? I have always been female. Regardless of what was assigned to me at birth. In addition I have never ever suffered Body or Gender dysphoria and that includes Gender Incongruence. Regardless of what happened before I changed my life around.
I have always for the entirety of my life, had this innate sense of keeping my mouth shut in regards to my 'medical condition'. Except certain doctors and family members and to this day, I will never tell anyone about this till the day I die. Yes, by doing so I have avoided all the consequences of coming out.
So as Iztaccihuatl said;
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMI disagree. Passing to me means to be perceived as a cis woman by practically everybody who doesn't know my past. It has nothing to do with how we dress, whether we use makeup or not or if we show any stereotypically female behavior or not. And it certainly has nothing to do with acting out a role.
I totally disagree with, because Passing to me means acting and I have never acted in the way I present myself in my life, I'm just me.
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMSomebody living as a female, (that's me) presenting as a female (that's me) and being treated by others as a female (that's me) doesn't pass in my opinion if many others will recognize that she was AMAB.
That's your opinion and now you know why I never tell anyone about my past 'medical condition', so I'm just another cis-women or cis-female in society.
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMThat is fine for many of us, it is still way better and more satisfying than living our lives as a dude, but for many of us the ultimate success criteria would be to be invisible as a cis woman.
Believe you me living my life as a female is far more preferable than living as a male. I would rather die than live as one. So I'm just another cis-women in a sea of cis-women, better still I'm just another piece of straw amongst a haystack.
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMWe all have some sort of 'gender radar' where we are looking for clues and categorize others we see into male or female. And that is looking at multiple data points, not just one single one. So, someone who is very tall and has a deep voice and large hands, ribcage and shoulders and narrow hips and maybe a slightly receding hairline will probably be clocked as trans because of that combination of those features. And it is only natural that we, as well as any other cis women, would try to hide them as much as possible. That is not everybody's cup of tea, but there is nothing wrong with those trying to do so.
Cis-women, including me or people identifying as 'trans', will either accept those conditions, you have mentioned above or they will if possible do something about it. In my case, I certainly did do something about it.
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on June 27, 2024, 11:11:42 AMI would also like to mention that the desire to be feminine depends on one's stage in transition. Early in transition it is important, it can be a source of euphoria, it is exciting. Later in transition, when we have settled in in our new gender role like the OP did, it usually becomes less important to us.
My ability to be 'feminine' was never a concern of mine and to this day it does not bother me either. I just did what I liked and that meant I basically conformed to the binary world of being female.
Please understand, when I hear of all the tragic and heartache that members of our community suffer. I wish I could make those troubles disappear, unfortunately, I can't and it causes me grief, sadness and heartache no end.
Please everyone take care, best wishes and I hope your dreams come true.
Love and HugsSarah BOfficial Greeter
My quibble with what you just wrote Sarah is just grammatical. When you say "passing is acting"... I hear what you are saying? But I don't see "passing" as really having anything to do with a person, their actions or sense of self. Instead, it's just an external measure: it's just how you are received by others in the world.
And while there seems to be some dispute here as to whether that is meaningful or not, I will say only this - those who make black and white statements that it either IS or is NOT important are both incorrect and insensitive.
If you start that sentence off with "in my opinion" then, have at it. But if you try to claim some sort of Uber knowledge speaking for all trans folk, well, I don't want to speak ill of anyone. But I will just say I believe people should tend to their own gardens.
For me? I have always felt like a woman. I have always known that I was. But it was only in the past few years that I started the process of sharing that with those I love, and making my external reality match my internal. I see no acting in this whatsoever.
Whether or not I am perceived or treated as a female by those in my life and strangers I encounter had and will have no bearing on how I live my life going forward, and played no role in my decision to finally end the "acting" I was doing by playing the male role for so long.
That being said, again FOR ME, and me only? I find it impossible to dispute that having others see me as I see myself, and treat me as such feels really good. I am not chasing it, but if that's what is called "passing"... well, then I feel fortunate that I won some genetic lottery so that this quickly I am able to blend and get that kind of support. I know not everyone does.
But please, respect the opinion of everyone here. The "ughs' and "ouches" are not really helpful, nor empathetic. And if nothing else we should all understand that whatever point each of us are at in our journeys, they have been long, and difficult, and deserving of respect.
Love,
Allie
Quote from: imallie on June 29, 2024, 02:36:37 AMpeople who make black and white statements that it either IS or is NOT important are both incorrect and insensitive.
(^^a black and white statement about black and white statements?! LOL^^)ss
I feel fortunate that I won some genetic lottery so that this quickly I am able to blend and get that kind of support.
But please, respect the opinion of everyone here. The "ughs' and "ouches" are not really helpful, nor empathetic. And if nothing else we should all understand that whatever point each of us are at in our journeys, they have been long, and difficult, and deserving of respect.
Love,
Allie
I am not sure who the Sarah is you are targeting with this is, either me or Ms B (or both?).. But I am curious to know what 'black and white' statements you are referring too.. 'cause in my ignorance on having read through all the post's here, I can't seem to locate any that are not in the context of what "someone
believes to be correct".
Obviously the 'Ughs' line was directed at me.. and my 'Ouch'.. but empathy is fine for playing nice and being friends.. Sometimes things people write on here strike my emotions and illicit a guttural response. Ouch, was indeed what I thought when I was being told that 'passing' was not about being accepted but if someone recognised their birth gender.. I find that thought abhorrent. Please let me explain why I think this way as I believe it is for the betterment of the community as a whole..
When I first came to this forum and others resources like it.. page after page of people were talking about 'how to pass'. I was given the advice to 'sit in a cafe and observe how women sit and hold their cups'... This set me on a path that most people who are dealing with trans issues start on.. 'passing' - it should be a dirty word in our world. It denotes gate keeping, testing and goals that need to be reached to be considered 'passable'. It is a lie! passing is a lie. just like the cake.. By promoting passing you are burdening a whole new population of people who come to these places looking for help.. you are effectively telling them they are not good enough yet, but if they do this, use this, wear that, have that done... then , maybe, they will be passing, they will be accepted. The consequences for not passing are never explicitly said, but are implied to be dire..
There are days, in your life, when you have to answer the door to someone when you just woke up.. no time to put on wigs, do your makeup and pad out your clothing.. there are times your doctor is going to ask you to undress so they can examine you - happened to me at my mammography last week - real life is not about 'passing' some arbitrary test, set by person's unknown with expectations only to be guessed at. Take control and believe in who you are. Your transition is transitory.. by definition. I think the rest of your life post transition has to be liveable, has to be free of fear from not passing and full of being able to accept who you are and find peace and happiness. In my opinon that is or should be the goal of transition.
Then you get people espousing they 'pass' as if they are somehow superior to anyone who has fears they don't.. How clever/pretty/lucky they are in life. - You, for instance, have not won some "genetic lottery".. I am sorry to inform your ego, you are not any more special than anyone else. You are not passing because of some luck.. You are being accepted because you are being you. You 'pass' as Allie.. I pass as Sarah.. I am accepted as me and people love and cherish ME. It is a requisite that everyone who transitions passes as themselves and not some mythical unicorn. Passing, by espousing that 'I pass' is presenting Unobtanium to the world and smacks to me of superiority of position. If you are a woman, you are a woman - in mine, and a lot of peoples opinion - passing has and should have nothing to do with it.
I don't want someone coming to this resource.. seeing that they will not be accepted unless they overcome some magical barrier that is ill defined and be fearful.. All too often do I read terrible stories from people who lived a life of regret and sorrow because they thought they 'would never pass'.. If to demonstrate that this is opinion and not fact requires me to use a few 'ouches' and be unempathetic then so be it. I would rather people be empowered and given confidence that they are beautiful in themselves and accept that changes can be made to their lives and bodies that will cure their dreadful, life threatening gender dysphoria.. and that does not involve having to sit in cafe's and mimic women.. why, because they already are women who know how to be themselves.
This is not a hobby, not a thing you do at the weekend and then on Monday go back to being Mike at the factory.. For those guys.. yeah, they need to pass.. because, they are not women - they have a hobby. That's fine and dandy. Different rules apply when you are contemplating on making such a huge change to your life as to change your gender and then continue to live with those changes for the rest of your life. This is not a game or a hobby. Transition is about curing a horrible condition. A condition that can quickly take lives if not treated. There is already so much gate-keeping - we don't need (IMHO) to add on made up criteria for some constantly changing test of acceptance..
Lets turn this on it's head.. what would you do if you saw someone and you suspected their birth gender did not match their presentation? We are obviously going to be allies, going to have similar issues in our lives.. The desire to ask 'Excuse me, are you trans?' is strong.. but, heck, no way would you ever do that.. because to do that and be talking to a cis woman would make her feel horrible.. to do that and be talking to a transwoman - would be equally horrible as your telling someone 'you don't pass, I know your secret'.. instead you don't mention it and treat them as the gender they are presenting. Until they bring it up as a subject it is not important. I know a lot of people on here are open and forthright in presenting their history and will gladly opine that they are trans without prompt.. and I salute them because every day they educate more and more people.
In conversations with my female friends (of all descriptions) all have, at some point, been accused of being a man.. it is a common slur thrown around in school playgrounds even.. and, gosh, should you be a woman in a position of management - then people will definitely be laughing behind your back about the possibility of you being male - Look at any prominent female figure from Maggie Thatcher to Taylor Swift all have had those 'jokes' slandered at them.. It is a cruel and unemphatic world (sorry, in my opinon!)..
In conclusion, while I respect your perspective, I feel compelled to address the tone of your post, which struck me as somewhat passive-aggressive and condescending. This issue of "passing" resonates deeply with me personally, as it reflects my own journey and challenges in finding acceptance and authenticity.
The emphasis on "passing" can impose harmful expectations and pressures on individuals navigating their gender identities. Instead, I believe, our focus should be on fostering a community where everyone feels empowered to embrace their true selves without judgment or unrealistic standards.
Moving forward, let's continue to promote inclusivity and support within our community, ensuring that everyone can live authentically and find acceptance for who they are, not how they conform to external expectations. As always, I say this all with huge respect to everyone who is reading and only offer my views and opinions to facilitate more discussion and understanding of this complex subject..
I have always thought that "passing" meant being yourself and not being misgendered by someone else. For me, being misgendered is a trigger for my dysphoria. I am content with who I am; for those confused about my appearance, I simply explain that I am in transition. I am a work in progress.
As for "trying to be feminine" which is the topic here, even cis-women do it. They wear makeup and buy frilly clothes, nice jewelry, and accessories, including lingerie. They wear their hair in feminine styles and speak with a feminine voice. Those of us assigned a male role as children usually did not learn these things. We learned a different way of presenting ourselves.
It is that very conflict between who we think we are and how we were taught to behave (from appearance to speech and other behaviors) that is the cause of much of our dysphoria. Sure, our bodies factor into that too. Even cis-women suffer from Body Dysphoria and have surgeries or go on diets, or whatever they feel they need to do to make their vision of themselves match their reality.
So I don't see "trying to be feminine" as an unreachable goal. It is about unlearning all the other stuff that does not allow us to express who we are and learning new ways to be ourselves that more aligns with the person we want to be. And that applies to Mtf as well as FtM and everyone else.
And while we are replacing our old behaviors and appearance with new ones, we "transition" from the roles we were assigned into the roles more fitting of who we are. And that is what eases our dysphoria. How well we believe we have accomplished that is "passing".
Some will be content with accomplishing small changes. For some, their vision of themselves requires more work: makeup, exercise, HRT, genital surgery, facial surgery, or augmentation of breasts and hips. Only the individual can decide if they have transitioned enough to be comfortable being themselves, or if they feel they need more work.
Many who went through the various stages long ago and have little if anything left to do, may not even consider themselves transgender any longer. But there are just as many new people who are just getting started on their path and struggle with what they feel is required for them to do to reach that point. They are just trying to be themselves and maybe that means becoming more feminine than they perceive themselves to be.
Ah, the never-ending "passing" debate.
The thing is, as someone (Julia Serano? Kate Bornstein?) has pointed out, it's the person looking at you (or hearing you) that decides whether you "pass" or not. No matter what you do, you are sometimes going to get misgendered. Even if you're cis. Back before I ever even imagined transitioning, I would sometimes get called "ma'am" on the phone. One time a caller demanded to speak to my mother -- I was in my 50's, and they'd have had to go to a graveyard in Virginia to find her.
I can see that having most people who look at you assume you're the gender you're presenting as has a safety aspect, especially if you're in a crowd that might be hostile if they realize you're trans. This is as much a matter of not attracting notice as it is conforming to some standard of femaleness. (Keep in mind, cis women come in all varieties of appearance.) I have it easier because I'm 70, which is well beyond the age when women become invisible, plus, old men and old women look more alike than when they're younger.
But I also think it's a mistake to base your sense of being valid on how well you "pass" (=other people don't notice you're trans.) Even if nobody else knows you're trans, you do. IMHO, since being trans is about your past, which you can't change, it's better to accept that that is also part of you than to try to pretend to yourself that you were always your new gender.
Personally, I deal with it by refusing to get into the (IMHO pointless) debate about whether I am "really" a woman/female. I am who I am. I say I "live as a woman," meaning that when dealing with other people who don't know what to do with me if they can't fit me into one of the two gender boxes, I try to get them to put me into the female one. Among people who know me, I don't even try to pretend I'm not trans, and if someone doesn't accept me because of it, I figure I've "dodged a bullet."
Quote from: LoriDee on June 30, 2024, 12:16:55 AMAs for "trying to be feminine" which is the topic here, even cis-women do it. They wear makeup and buy frilly clothes, nice jewelry, and accessories, including lingerie. They wear their hair in feminine styles and speak with a feminine voice.
There are all kinds of women. Some do the "being feminine" more, some less, and some pretty much not at all. Some would be embarassed to be seen in public without their "face" on, but others (e.g., my ex) don't use makeup at all. The women I spend much time with don't do all that much, except maybe for a special occasion. (Some of the women at contra dances dress up, especially since skirts are fun when you dance -- but not everyone.)
My own "trying to be feminine" extends to earrings, dresses or skirts, and a wig (to hide my male-pattern baldness.) These are things I like and which I like seeing in the mirror. I'm okay with the idea of makeup and nail polish, but don't do them because they're too much hassle. But most of the stuff they talk about I don't like or can't be bothered with.
Quote from: SoupSarah on June 29, 2024, 11:36:29 PMI am not sure who the Sarah is you are targeting with this is, either me or Ms B (or both?).. But I am curious to know what 'black and white' statements you are referring too.. 'cause in my ignorance on having read through all the post's here, I can't seem to locate any that are not in the context of what "someone believes to be correct".
Obviously the 'Ughs' line was directed at me.. and my 'Ouch'.. but empathy is fine for playing nice and being friends.. Sometimes things people write on here strike my emotions and illicit a guttural response. Ouch, was indeed what I thought when I was being told that 'passing' was not about being accepted but if someone recognised their birth gender.. I find that thought abhorrent. Please let me explain why I think this way as I believe it is for the betterment of the community as a whole..
When I first came to this forum and others resources like it.. page after page of people were talking about 'how to pass'. I was given the advice to 'sit in a cafe and observe how women sit and hold their cups'... This set me on a path that most people who are dealing with trans issues start on.. 'passing' - it should be a dirty word in our world. It denotes gate keeping, testing and goals that need to be reached to be considered 'passable'. It is a lie! passing is a lie. just like the cake.. By promoting passing you are burdening a whole new population of people who come to these places looking for help.. you are effectively telling them they are not good enough yet, but if they do this, use this, wear that, have that done... then , maybe, they will be passing, they will be accepted. The consequences for not passing are never explicitly said, but are implied to be dire..
There are days, in your life, when you have to answer the door to someone when you just woke up.. no time to put on wigs, do your makeup and pad out your clothing.. there are times your doctor is going to ask you to undress so they can examine you - happened to me at my mammography last week - real life is not about 'passing' some arbitrary test, set by person's unknown with expectations only to be guessed at. Take control and believe in who you are. Your transition is transitory.. by definition. I think the rest of your life post transition has to be liveable, has to be free of fear from not passing and full of being able to accept who you are and find peace and happiness. In my opinon that is or should be the goal of transition.
Then you get people espousing they 'pass' as if they are somehow superior to anyone who has fears they don't.. How clever/pretty/lucky they are in life. - You, for instance, have not won some "genetic lottery".. I am sorry to inform your ego, you are not any more special than anyone else. You are not passing because of some luck.. You are being accepted because you are being you. You 'pass' as Allie.. I pass as Sarah.. I am accepted as me and people love and cherish ME. It is a requisite that everyone who transitions passes as themselves and not some mythical unicorn. Passing, by espousing that 'I pass' is presenting Unobtanium to the world and smacks to me of superiority of position. If you are a woman, you are a woman - in mine, and a lot of peoples opinion - passing has and should have nothing to do with it.
I don't want someone coming to this resource.. seeing that they will not be accepted unless they overcome some magical barrier that is ill defined and be fearful.. All too often do I read terrible stories from people who lived a life of regret and sorrow because they thought they 'would never pass'.. If to demonstrate that this is opinion and not fact requires me to use a few 'ouches' and be unempathetic then so be it. I would rather people be empowered and given confidence that they are beautiful in themselves and accept that changes can be made to their lives and bodies that will cure their dreadful, life threatening gender dysphoria.. and that does not involve having to sit in cafe's and mimic women.. why, because they already are women who know how to be themselves.
This is not a hobby, not a thing you do at the weekend and then on Monday go back to being Mike at the factory.. For those guys.. yeah, they need to pass.. because, they are not women - they have a hobby. That's fine and dandy. Different rules apply when you are contemplating on making such a huge change to your life as to change your gender and then continue to live with those changes for the rest of your life. This is not a game or a hobby. Transition is about curing a horrible condition. A condition that can quickly take lives if not treated. There is already so much gate-keeping - we don't need (IMHO) to add on made up criteria for some constantly changing test of acceptance..
Lets turn this on it's head.. what would you do if you saw someone and you suspected their birth gender did not match their presentation? We are obviously going to be allies, going to have similar issues in our lives.. The desire to ask 'Excuse me, are you trans?' is strong.. but, heck, no way would you ever do that.. because to do that and be talking to a cis woman would make her feel horrible.. to do that and be talking to a transwoman - would be equally horrible as your telling someone 'you don't pass, I know your secret'.. instead you don't mention it and treat them as the gender they are presenting. Until they bring it up as a subject it is not important. I know a lot of people on here are open and forthright in presenting their history and will gladly opine that they are trans without prompt.. and I salute them because every day they educate more and more people.
In conversations with my female friends (of all descriptions) all have, at some point, been accused of being a man.. it is a common slur thrown around in school playgrounds even.. and, gosh, should you be a woman in a position of management - then people will definitely be laughing behind your back about the possibility of you being male - Look at any prominent female figure from Maggie Thatcher to Taylor Swift all have had those 'jokes' slandered at them.. It is a cruel and unemphatic world (sorry, in my opinon!)..
In conclusion, while I respect your perspective, I feel compelled to address the tone of your post, which struck me as somewhat passive-aggressive and condescending. This issue of "passing" resonates deeply with me personally, as it reflects my own journey and challenges in finding acceptance and authenticity.
The emphasis on "passing" can impose harmful expectations and pressures on individuals navigating their gender identities. Instead, I believe, our focus should be on fostering a community where everyone feels empowered to embrace their true selves without judgment or unrealistic standards.
Moving forward, let's continue to promote inclusivity and support within our community, ensuring that everyone can live authentically and find acceptance for who they are, not how they conform to external expectations. As always, I say this all with huge respect to everyone who is reading and only offer my views and opinions to facilitate more discussion and understanding of this complex subject..
This.. this is why I literally love this girl. That's her in the corner, talking all kinds of truth. Took me a minute to realise who SoupSarah was... but now I know... yeah... girl, I cannot disagree with any of this. Thank you. I am so glad you're still here.
I will never "pass" And I think trying to be feminine to prove some kind of point is no different to trying to be masculine. It's trying to prove the same point. Because it matters to you what other people think more than what YOU think.
No one in my area doesn't treat me as me, though. Not because I've tried to blend in and be inconspicuous... because that's literally never going to happen. It's because I've been all about "Who you are is how you are." There is no way on God's green earth I'm going to look like your average woman. Never in a million years. But.. there are myriad different facets of men and women. If you're good about being you, and you're secure in who you are... go fix truck engines... go make fashion catalogs... don't let anyone tell you that you have to do this, that or the other. Who we are is how we feel. It's really that simple.
People try to be feminine, masculine, everything in between. When you try to be something you ultimately fail. Don't try... you get way better results :)
Quote from: Sephirah on July 04, 2024, 06:29:49 PMThis.. this is why I literally love this girl. That's her in the corner, talking all kinds of truth. Took me a minute to realise who SoupSarah was... but now I know... yeah... girl, I cannot disagree with any of this. Thank you. I am so glad you're still here.
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough!
but yeah, that's me in the photo!.. SarahEL as I was.. back to my very old avatar and name, but now in a much better world..
I'm maybe a little late to the discussion, but to answer to the original post, the things we do or like aren't really feminine nor masculine. These attributes are given by society and sometimes we can wear dresses because we enjoy feeling feminine or simply because we like them. Deciding to do a gendered thing for different reasons than someone else doesn't have to invalidate anyone's experiences with gender.
I consider myself to be nonbinary, but I'm completely fine doing things that make me feel either masculine or feminine even if they aren't objectively either.
Quote from: darksou on July 12, 2024, 03:59:08 PMthe things we do or like aren't really feminine nor masculine. These attributes are given by society
This is exactly correct.