I saw a meme of a crumpled fender with a sign that it identified as a straight fender today, and there have been hundreds of similar memes, and all of them are making out that gender identity is imaginary. Our legitimacy in the eyes of the public is a fundamental problem for our community, and I believe the phrase 'I identify as' is largely responsible.
While it does tick some boxes for us, it also creates problems, and I would like to see a better phrase. How we perceive ourselves is 'hard wired' into us at birth, a structural feature, not something we can change, but the current phrase does not indicate that to the general community. We need a phrase which can't be so easily misconstrued. Any ideas??
Hugs,
Allie
I do think some people are impressionable and can be influenced easily by others for many topics and issues, and this includes gender identity.
However, there is for real the situation of realizing you were not born or assigned the correct gender. That is my case for sure, and clarified by going to a gender therapist who helped me.
This is not imaginary. There are some people who may think they are transgender who are not, and there are those who do not realize or accept or are comfortable that they are transgender.
I can understand how someone can believe that they are both male and female or fluid between them. I have more difficulty in conceptualizing some of the other dozens of gender identities, but I have little doubt that these can be real to those with them.
Labels can be bad, they can also be uniting in ways. I can be emphatic to other MTF transsexuals, because I am one, for example.
But let us not get into class or elite status, or this label or box is better than any other.
Try to be accepting of anyone unless given good reasons to not to, like them being extremely rude, criminal, and so on.
Show kindness and love as much as one can.
Your (anyone reading this) ideas and beliefs might be more thought out than mine, this is just how I see this now in my thinking.
Chrissy
How about 'I am'.
It's simple, concise, and unambiguous.
Love always -- Jessica Rose
I am me!
Chrissy
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 05, 2024, 04:15:49 AMOur legitimacy in the eyes of the public is a fundamental problem for our community, and I believe the phrase 'I identify as' is largely responsible.
I totally agree with this. The implication is that it is not real, but a persona that we put on.
I agree with
@Jessica_Rose that instead of saying "I identify as..." I just say "I am ..."
"Do you identify as female?"
"No, I AM female."
Leave the interpretation up to them.
Quote from: Lori Dee on September 05, 2024, 11:50:13 AMI totally agree with this. The implication is that it is not real, but a persona that we put on.
I agree with @Jessica_Rose that instead of saying "I identify as..." I just say "I am ..."
"Do you identify as female?"
"No, I AM female."
Leave the interpretation up to them.
That is a good plan.
Note that some forms use the phrasing for gender as "what you identify as."
Insofar as a place on the data collection form for sex, it is male or female as choices. (Yes, some people, if possible, write in YES or other remarks.)
A separate spot is on the form for "identifying as."
But in conversation, yes it is good to say I am female versus identify as a female.
I agree.
Chrissy
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 05, 2024, 04:15:49 AMI saw a meme of a crumpled fender with a sign that it identified as a straight fender today, and there have been hundreds of similar memes, and all of them are making out that gender identity is imaginary. Our legitimacy in the eyes of the public is a fundamental problem for our community, and I believe the phrase 'I identify as' is largely responsible.
While it does tick some boxes for us, it also creates problems, and I would like to see a better phrase. How we perceive ourselves is 'hard wired' into us at birth, a structural feature, not something we can change, but the current phrase does not indicate that to the general community. We need a phrase which can't be so easily misconstrued. Any ideas??
Hugs,
Allie
As much as a part of me agrees with what you're saying, Allie, I do not think that changing phrases or terminology will really change anything. Because it isn't the issue, not really, in my opinion. I saw a bumper sticker not too long ago which read "My other car is a small boat". Referencing the issue in the UK with people crossing the Channel from France to try and make a better life here. An immigration issue.
The only thing that would happen if you changed "I identify as" to "I am" is that the sign on the fender would change to read "I am a straight fender." Because that's just how the world is these days. It's full of memes. People trying to be clever by sounding dumb. The issue isn't how we have to try to make it so people don't do this kind of stuff. People will do this kind of stuff no matter what we do because the world has become a place in which people do it no matter what issue it is. Nothing is treated with legitimacy and respect in the same way as we think it should, or want it to be. We live in an age of smart... erm... rear ends.
It isn't necessarily "the public" as a whole. It's people who are into all these memes, who think they're being cool by making fun of everything. It's kind of a subculture. I don't think, personally, that trying to come up with something different will change that one bit. Just because of the times we live in. Social media, in essence a Cyberpunk future that snuck up on us.
As long as you can get through to the people who matter... which you do more with conversations and information more in-depth than a bumper sticker... let the memers have their memes. Because they will either way. Not just about being trans.
I don't see a problem with using either term interchangeably. Identity makes up most of who we are. And it's a way of saying something which doesn't conflict with something biological that can be used against us by those who see nothing more than chromosomes and sex organs. I don't think it's wrong to say "I identify as me". It's the truth.
That other people want to make a joke out of it is on them, not us. And sometimes you have to give the majority of people more credit to get what they're doing. You'd be surprised.
I use to find some of those memes pretty funny (mainly ones about cars), but now I can see how they are very damaging and how they undermine a lot of progress that many have worked and fought hard for.
Quote from: Robbyv213 on September 05, 2024, 02:35:39 PMI use to find some of those memes pretty funny (mainly ones about cars), but now I can see how they are very damaging and how they undermine a lot of progress that many have worked and fought hard for.
Yeah and that's more about how you are than what's going on, sweetie. That's kind of my point. You can't change the world, in this regard. You can only change yourself and hope that radiates to the people who matter to you. These days... nothing is given much respect. It's all up for ridicule and scrutiny on social media and the internet. Using different words will not stop this. Because it isn't about what terms you use. It's about how you present who you are. The change has to come from inside. At least in my view. The best thing to do with all this superfluous stuff is just ignore it.
I really like
@Jessica_Rose answer, 'I Am'! The current phrase was coined when being trans was officially a disorder, and it infers strongly that you see yourself as something you're not. 'I Am' is simple, strong, and as such, far less likely to be used against us. We should not continue to use terms which are used against us.
Of course we can change the world, not everything overnight, but bit by bit. In my lifetime I have witnessed amazing change, both technologically and socially. When I came out to my mother in 1958, diverse people were often bashed or killed, and police would not investigate. I feel safe in my country now, thanks to the efforts of amazing people. We should identify those things weaponised against us, and push for change.
I will no longer use the phrase 'identify as' or even 'Gender Identity' and will adopt 'I am', and 'Gender Diversity'. Hopefully, before I die, it will catch on, and we will have changed the world just a bit more!
Hugs,
Allie
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 05, 2024, 05:53:26 PM]'I Am' is simple, strong, and as such, far less likely to be used against us. We should not continue to use terms which are used against us.
If you use the term "I am", I can guarantee that will be
more used against trans people. Far more than "I identify as". Because evolutionary biology argues against the use of saying "I am a woman" when you have XY chromosomes, and male sex organs. The whole method of classification of species goes out of its way to prove that isn't true. It makes a point of saying identity isn't a thing. Which... we've made kind of a big deal of making people see that it is a thing. Quite an important thing.
As far as most people are concerned. You are coming down heavily on an area where even fewer people agree on than the whole identity thing. Not only will you get the ideological crowd, you will get the biology and evolutionary crowd. Identity differentiates between how you see yourself and the body you are born into. The assertion of "I am" does not. Any term you want to coin will be used against us, because some people just want to be against us, no matter what.
Quote from: Sephirah on September 05, 2024, 06:06:37 PMIdentity differentiates between how you see yourself and the body you are born into. The assertion of "I am" does not.
I don't agree with this statement. Identity speaks to your very core, your soul. You can't get any deeper by saying "I am". Yes, you are correct, haters gonna hate no matter what. They will find any excuse. But they can't
prove they are correct. Your spirit, your soul, is not determined by genetics, or biblical decrees, or court orders.
Quote from: Lori Dee on September 05, 2024, 06:14:43 PMI don't agree with this statement. Identity speaks to your very core, your soul. You can't get any deeper by saying "I am". Yes, you are correct, haters gonna hate no matter what. They will find any excuse. But they can't prove they are correct. Your spirit, your soul, is not determined by genetics, or biblical decrees, or court orders.
You're right, Lori. And I know what you're saying from the standpoint of being trans. You are 100% right. It's how I feel, and how I want to approach the world. Saying "I am" is how I feel about myself. How I see myself. And why I know this deep down to be the right way to approach this. But for the vast majority of people who don't get how being trans feels... this will not fly, in my opinion. Because their version of "I am" goes along very different lines.
The thing is... the people you're talking about don't need to prove
anything. That's the fight we have. Because it's herd mentality. The burden of proof is not on the people hating on trans people. It never has been. Like all minorities. Majority rules. It isn't right, it isn't fair, it's just how humans have evolved to behave. I believe identity is how we prove we are not how evolution gave birth to us. Identity is self determination. It's what separates us from every other animal on the planet. The ability to identify who we are, and be secure in that identification.
I don't think we need to change that to appease people who make dumb bumper stickers, that's all I guess I'm really saying.
Sephira, evolutionary biology has change, ie 'evolution' in its name! I would be very careful on this forum in saying we can't be Women while we have XY chromosomes and male sex organs. The legal definition of Woman was recently tested in the court case Tickle vs Giggle, and the trans person was found to be a Woman. The IOC has also recently made a ruling regarding XY, so maybe things are already changing.
Most of the terminology and classification bestowed on our community is from academics, almost none of which are trans. It's about time we started to have a say about things which affect us. There will always be haters, but I believe they are well outnumbered by fence sitters who do react to memes. Don't underestimate the power of bumper stickers, I remember seeing peace signs and 'Make Love Not War' stickers turn public opinion against participation in the Vietnam War.
The base line is if we identify something which is hurting our community, we should not promote it ourselves, and we should push for evolution.
I raised this question to see what different people here thought, so I am looking forward to other people posting here. I like most of what I have read so far!
Hugs,
Allie
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 05, 2024, 07:02:52 PMSephira, evolutionary biology has change, ie 'evolution' in its name! I would be very careful on this forum in saying we can't be Women while we have XY chromosomes and male sex organs. The legal definition of Woman was recently tested in the court case Tickle vs Giggle, and the trans person was found to be a Woman. The IOC has also recently made a ruling regarding XY, so maybe things are already changing.
Good. I am glad this is a thing. I am not saying we can't be women. I am not saying anyone can't be anyone. Trans men or trans women. This isn't just one sided. If someone identifies as female, or male, if they jump through all the hurdles that supposedly educated but not intuitive people say someone has to jump through to be seen as who the are then that should be enough. You're missing the point, Allie. I am not saying someone can't be anything. I am saying this is the ammunition people will use against us. You have to realise that when you go grabbing cannons. They have cannons too.
QuoteMost of the terminology and classification bestowed on our community is from academics, almost none of which are trans. It's about time we started to have a say about things which affect us. There will always be haters, but I believe they are well outnumbered by fence sitters who do react to memes. Don't underestimate the power of bumper stickers, I remember seeing peace signs and 'Make Love Not War' stickers turn public opinion against participation in the Vietnam War.
The base line is if we identify something which is hurting our community, we should not promote it ourselves, and we should push for evolution.
I raised this question to see what different people here thought, so I am looking forward to other people posting here. I like most of what I have read so far!
Hugs,
Allie
Yeah this is the last thing I'm gonna say, hon. We don't promote anything. You said it yourself, it's from academics who have to classify stuff. And you've said it yourself, most people don't react to the whole meme thing. It's a fraction of a fraction of the people around. We don't need to change the world to appeal to a few frogs in a pond, just because we don't like the way they jump.
There will always be as much that hurts the community as stuff that promotes it. Let people be idiots if they want to. Just be you. Educate the people you can, ignore the people you can't.
I prefer "I am".
There is nothing wrong with "identify as" per se, but it has to be kept in context. If someone were to give me a hard time using "identify as" to mean "imagine", I would turn it around on them. I would ask, "Are you a man or a woman?" When the answer comes back as one or the other, I will point out that they just identified as a man (or woman, though it is typically men that play this game). That's what "identifying as" means: saying what you are.
Everyone identifies as something. Even TERFs and good-old-boys identify as women or men. The phrase doesn't have some other-worldly woke meaning. It's just what you identify as.
Quote from: KathyLauren on September 05, 2024, 07:43:12 PMI prefer "I am".
There is nothing wrong with "identify as" per se, but it has to be kept in context. If someone were to give me a hard time using "identify as" to mean "imagine", I would turn it around on them. I would ask, "Are you a man or a woman?" When the answer comes back as one or the other, I will point out that they just identified as a man (or woman, though it is typically men that play this game). That's what "identifying as" means: saying what you are.
Everyone identifies as something. Even TERFs and good-old-boys identify as women or men. The phrase doesn't have some other-worldly woke meaning. It's just what you identify as.
Kathy, in one on one situations you are correct, but I am more talking about the influence of memes and such on social media, or on stickers and signs, which may cause the easily influenced segment of our society to adopt a negative view of us. We can't be there to challenge this every time, but we can push to change the language to something less damaging.
Hugs,
Allie
You cannot do this, Allie. Because this not about trans people. It's about teenagers who have grown up, playing the dude onlinebteenagers who have grown up online.
-er, -ism...doesn't matter to these people.
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 05, 2024, 07:55:58 PMKathy, in one on one situations you are correct, but I am more talking about the influence of memes and such on social media, or on stickers and signs, which may cause the easily influenced segment of our society to adopt a negative view of us. We can't be there to challenge this every time, but we can push to change the language to something less damaging anyway.
Hugs,
Allie
(What ... you really thought I was not going to chime in on this one! hahahaa!..)
Well, Labels, what a waste of time - I am a mother, daughter, wife, lover, microbiologists, bookseller, geek, nerd, gamer, heterosexual, tea-total, fast driving, whorkaholic, christian (with a small 'c',), OCD, evolutionist who identifies as Sarah...
For ease of use, just use the label Sarah.. for it encapsulates all I am and who I desire to be perceived as.
You cannot argue with an idiot - they will bring you down to their bumpersticker level and beat you with experience. Identify as you - the most unique thing on this small blue dot in the universe. There will never be another you and there never has been a you before - so embrace your diversity and live YOUR life, not some comic book anti-hero (like me! I am Batman.. ).. :)
Quote from: SoupSarah on September 05, 2024, 08:26:35 PM(What ... you really thought I was not going to chime in on this one! hahahaa!..)
Well, Labels, what a waste of time - I am a mother, daughter, wife, lover, microbiologists, bookseller, geek, nerd, gamer, heterosexual, tea-total, fast driving, whorkaholic, christian (with a small 'c',), OCD, evolutionist who identifies as Sarah...
For ease of use, just use the label Sarah.. for it encapsulates all I am and who I desire to be perceived as.
You cannot argue with an idiot - they will bring you down to their bumpersticker level and beat you with experience. Identify as you - the most unique thing on this small blue dot in the universe. There will never be another you and there never has been a you before - so embrace your diversity and live YOUR life, not some comic book anti-hero (like me! I am Batman.. ).. :)
Can I use the label "Batgirl"? You said everything I tried to say, but much better lol. <3
Hi Everyone I was not going to chime (thanks Sarah) in on this conversation, I was thinking 'not another label'. However after reading through all the comments, how could I not pass up this opportunity to do so.
I do not subscribe to the labels that are being used in our community. As Chrissy said:
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on September 05, 2024, 05:41:57 AMLabels can be bad, they can also be uniting in ways. I can be emphatic to other MTF transsexuals, because I am one, for example
This is the only label I will use and only when I'm talking to a doctor who knows about my condition and even then, I do not use that term. Once and that is it. Jessica states the only label that I will use:
Quote from: Jessica_Rose on September 05, 2024, 11:41:42 AMHow about 'I am'.
It's simple, concise, and unambiguous.
Yes, I am a female, nothing less and nothing more and as Chrissy said in the next post:
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on September 05, 2024, 11:42:56 AMI am me!
Yes; "I am me" and have always been me, my whole life. I disagree with what Sephirah said and that was:
Quote from: Sephirah on September 05, 2024, 06:06:37 PMIf you use the term "I am", I can guarantee that will be more used against trans people. Far more than "I identify as".
and as Lori said
Quote from: Lori Dee on September 05, 2024, 06:14:43 PMYes, you are correct, haters gonna hate no matter what. They will find any excuse. But they can't prove they are correct. Your spirit, your soul, is not determined by genetics, or biblical decrees, or court orders.
As for the biology part I cannot change my genetics and if I could I would. The only way things are going to change is as Sephirah said, "Educate the people you can, ignore the people you can't" or as Sarah said:
Quote from: SoupSarah on September 05, 2024, 08:26:35 PMYou cannot argue with an idiot - they will bring you down to their bumpersticker gutter level and beat you with experience.
As for the memes especially the fender one, I just laugh at it, it's funny and as for others just ridicule, ignore them or whatever, Kathy Lauren alludes to how to deal with those type of situations and that is
tit for tat.So "I am a female", I really did not know this until I was about 52, but then again I have lived my whole life as a female up to that point without realizing that, so I do not have to say "I am a female".
Love and HugsSarah BOfficial Greeter@ChrissyRyan @Jessica_Rose @Sephirah @Lori Dee @KathyLauren @SoupSarah @Allie Jayne
This time I need to pipe up..
I have a problem with the term MtF I see it used a lot here and that worries me as the implications are as it says, MALE to FEMALE - that is, once a male, and turning into a FEMALE - wheras a lot of people will tell you they were always the gender that they wanted to transition into - and only lived under duress in the guise of the other gender. It works in the other way too, FtM.. I was never a male, so I could never use the MtF descriptor. I feel this is an attempt to sub-categorize people by giving them a history and a destination - instead of simply referring to them as the gender they are.
Maybe it is just me being too sensitive or politically correct, but if I had my way, I would discourage the use of MtF and FtM.
Quote from: SoupSarah on September 06, 2024, 07:00:35 PMThis time I need to pipe up..
I have a problem with the term MtF I see it used a lot here and that worries me as the implications are as it says, MALE to FEMALE - that is, once a male, and turning into a FEMALE - wheras a lot of people will tell you they were always the gender that they wanted to transition into - and only lived under duress in the guise of the other gender. It works in the other way too, FtM.. I was never a male, so I could never use the MtF descriptor. I feel this is an attempt to sub-categorize people by giving them a history and a destination - instead of simply referring to them as the gender they are.
Maybe it is just me being too sensitive or politically correct, but if I had my way, I would discourage the use of MtF and Ftm.
I don't think so, Sarah. Both Sarah's. You are approaching this from the same place. You know how you feel. Where you come from and where you want to be. And, honestly I get entirely what you're saying. If someone was never male, then that term does not apply to them. You are only living your lives in the female state, to affect who you are because that's who you are.
I don't... I don't think this should be scrapped, though. Because a whole lot of people have gone through this. They have learned who they are by learning who they are not. You can put whatever term you want on it. Look at girls like Robby. Just saying "Yeah I knew since I was 2 years old" is all well and good. But people who find out much later in life should be afforded the same respect. I know what you're saying, Sarah, and honestly a lot of me agrees with you. You should not have to say you're going from someone you are not to someone you are. But you're dealing with people who mostly don't understand any of this.
And.. I mean, for a lot of folks here, they come here precisely because they literally are going from male to female.
My intent for this thread was to get the different opinions of members, and we have had some great input. It is not a competition, or a debate to win, so everyone's input is valid, and I trust the readers to make their own minds up in private.
Please bear in mind that debate inhibits some members from contributing as they don't wish to be judged or feel the need to defend their opinions, and I would like to keep this light and hear from as many people as piossible!
Hugs,
Allie
@Allie JayneDear Allie Jayne:You took the words right out of my mouth...
...thank you for posting your thoughts.HUGS, Danielle [Northern Star Girl]
Quote from: Allie Jayne on September 07, 2024, 12:43:49 AMMy intent for this thread was to get the different opinions of members, and we have had some great input. It is not a competition, or a debate to win, so everyone's input is valid, and I trust the readers to make their own minds up in private.
Please bear in mind that debate inhibits some members from contributing as they don't wish to be judged or feel the need to defend their opinions, and I would like to keep this light and hear from as many people as piossible!
Hugs,
Allie
I have got to be me!
Chrissy
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on September 07, 2024, 04:21:20 AMI have got to be me!
Chrissy
And you do such as great job at it. Never stop being you. :-*
Quote from: Lori Dee on September 07, 2024, 10:43:15 AMAnd you do such as great job at it. Never stop being you. :-*
Well it is hard not to be me, after all, that is who I am. So no big accomplishment there!
Chrissy