So here's what I think.
Getting HRT meds and later even surgery should not depend on a Psychologist or Psyciatrist.
My idea:
It should be a certification.
One that anyone could go throught the training to give.
A person who is Trans. could go to thier local PRIDE center and speak to one of the people there who had been certified and trained to give such certification.
They would go through an interview, ask questions, and the certifier would give them what would have formerly been a diagnosis, now a certification.
One could take this certification to thier doctor, who could then use that as a means for prescribing HRT. The Doctors also should be trained in being able to certify.
If one had been on hrt for at least a year and there were no detectable health problems as a result, the doctor should be able to refer for surgery.
That would be my solution.
That way a Psychologist could be trained to give such certification if they wished, but they would not be the only ones. Anybody should be able to give the certification if they went through the proper training for it. Including ones actual doctor.
The Hary Benjamin Whatever stuff should be completely scraped and replaced with a more modern system.
My thoughts.
Sara
Any ideas?
My gut-reaction is to agree with you, being an anarchist to my core. I should be free to make my own decisions in life, as long as I accept the responsibility that comes with those decisions. Transition should not even be contingent on a certification, as you propose. I might be making a terrible mistake in transitioning, but it is my mistake to make. I'll sign any waiver to that effect.
I would rather set it up in such a way that health services make a voluntary period of counselling available, not necessarily psychological, but just a forum in which to deal with issues stemming from one's GID. Attendance of this counselling would not in any way affect one's access to treatment, though some doctors might of course decide to require certain minimums (their right to choose under which conditions they will treat a person)
I agree.
Someone should be able to see a psychologist if they want to
but they should not be required to in order to recieve help from thier professional doctor.
There are a number of reasons why I believe that psychiatric evaluation and treatment should be mandatory for transgendered individuals seeking HRT and various forms of "corrective" surgery.
1. Most people who are transgendered experience a large amount of stress, doubt, confusion, denial, depression, and anxiety about their Gender Identity. Talking to a qualified professional (more often than not, in my experience) helps a person to sort out his feelings, more objectively evaluate problems and solutions, and provides support that may not otherwise be available.
2. There are not many but there are those who "fake it" for a myriad of reasons. Some are disillusioned or depressed teenagers who don't know any better. Others are criminals. Many are psychologically unstable.
3. Many of the effects of HRT and most of the effects of surgery are permanent. A person who plans to undergo those types of processes should be fully aware of the permanence, risks, side-effects and make sure that he knows what he's getting into.
4. There are transsexual individuals who completed the whole process and still regretted it, wishing they could undo the effects of surgery and HRT.
If I think of any others, I'll list them later.
I think we're pretty much stuck with what we have, although I'd love to see it standardized a bit more - and draw a clearer line between diagnosis and (optional) psychotherapy.
Doctors can't ethically prescribe hormones unless there's a medical necessity, and surgeons can't ethically perform non-cosmetic surgery unless there's a medical reason to do so. Both require a diagnosis from a medical professional. Waivers or certifications aren't enough... the medical necessity has to be established.
~Kate~
Quote from: Milo on January 18, 2008, 03:22:53 PM
There are a number of reasons why I believe that psychiatric evaluation and treatment should be mandatory for transgendered individuals seeking HRT and various forms of "corrective" surgery.
1. Most people who are transgendered experience a large amount of stress, doubt, confusion, denial, depression, and anxiety about their Gender Identity. Talking to a qualified professional (more often than not, in my experience) helps a person to sort out his feelings, more objectively evaluate problems and solutions, and provides support that may not otherwise be available.
2. There are not many but there are those who "fake it" for a myriad of reasons. Some are disillusioned or depressed teenagers who don't know any better. Others are criminals. Many are psychologically unstable.
3. Many of the effects of HRT and most of the effects of surgery are permanent. A person who plans to undergo those types of processes should be fully aware of the permanence, risks, side-effects and make sure that he knows what he's getting into.
4. There are transsexual individuals who completed the whole process and still regretted it, wishing they could undo the effects of surgery and HRT.
If I think of any others, I'll list them later.
I don't know if you understood the OP.
I said that the person giving the certification should be "properly trained" including on how to tell the difference of fakes.
At the very least ones own doctor should be able to make the call and not just a Psychologist.
REason being: with regard to your first example, that does not apply to all trans people universally.
As I said, people should be able to see one if they want to, but they schould not be required to.
I know more than one person, myself included, whose only possible need or reason for seeing a gender therapist is to collect a diagnosis.
That's it. I have no puropse for one other than that.
AS such, IT seems an unessicary step theat could be bypassed and gone straight to my doctor for,
It costs a lot of money. and with the current system in the US, requires at least 3 months of of expensve, and for me, useless session for a referral.
The only reason they do it that way is because of the Harry Benjamin stuff.
I wouldn't mind seeing one once and walking out with the paperwork.
And what about those in England? They are pretty much screwed.
Official estimates are 28 years!
Unafficial is less than that, but still, six years wait! then more years without HRT! Then many more still before they can get surgery!
What I'm suggesting is that someone could go to a suffeciently trained
competent certifyer who could then go to their doctor and start HRT.
Sara
Quote from: Milo on January 18, 2008, 03:22:53 PM
There are a number of reasons why I believe that psychiatric evaluation and treatment should be mandatory for transgendered individuals seeking HRT and various forms of "corrective" surgery.
1. Most people who are transgendered experience a large amount of stress, doubt, confusion, denial, depression, and anxiety about their Gender Identity. Talking to a qualified professional (more often than not, in my experience) helps a person to sort out his feelings, more objectively evaluate problems and solutions, and provides support that may not otherwise be available.
2. There are not many but there are those who "fake it" for a myriad of reasons. Some are disillusioned or depressed teenagers who don't know any better. Others are criminals. Many are psychologically unstable.
3. Many of the effects of HRT and most of the effects of surgery are permanent. A person who plans to undergo those types of processes should be fully aware of the permanence, risks, side-effects and make sure that he knows what he's getting into.
4. There are transsexual individuals who completed the whole process and still regretted it, wishing they could undo the effects of surgery and HRT.
If I think of any others, I'll list them later.
Okay, I see your point, but allow me to raise some counter-arguments.
1. Yeah, we all develop a number of issues around GID, and most assuredly, dealing with those almost certainly leads to a more successful transition. However, dealing with them should be my choice, not be forced upon me by an outside agency. It's crazy anyway, IMO, to deny a person treatment of the root cause of most of those problems on the basis of not dealing with the secondary issues that spring from it.
2. Yeah there are fakers out there, usually people with other issues that present as GID. However, again, if I am sane enough not to have been committed, I'm sane enough to make my own decisions, however ill-advised they are. As to criminals seeking GRS - I think that quite rare, but you'd hardly need a couple of referrals to access treatment - there are plenty of take the money and don't ask questions surgeons out there.
3. I absolutely agree. In the same way that a tattooist or piercings artist would discuss the dangers and side-effects (well mine did, anyway) before proceeding, anybody who is going to prescribe you HRT or perform surgery should make damn-sure you know what you are letting yourself in for. If nothing else, they have to do that for the consent form and waiver you sign to be binding. I'm not saying transition is like getting a tattoo, but what I do mean is that informed or ill-informed, it should still be your decision. The therapist/doctor/whatever's responsibility is to inform you, not to decide for you.
4. Yes, after they went through the entire shebang of counselling, RLE, etc. Going to a psychologist is no guarantee you are making the right decision, but we should be free to make those decisions for ourselves. If they turn around and bite us later, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
I would concede to saying that PERHAPS a SHORT manditory period of counselling might be in order, but again only to inform me and make me aware of all the aspects of what I'm undertaking. At best two or three sessions of discussing procedures and likely psychological impacts, etc. Having some stranger who knows probably half as much as most of the people on this board to about GID, never mind that that person doesn't know me from a block of wood, decide when and if I can transition is wrong.
Hi Milo
I agree with what you have posted I was going to more or like post something with similar thoughts. Just wanted to add as well that after two or three years of therapy with a qualified therapist of psychiatrist and two or three years of real life experience should pretty well weed out most of the wannabees or those that were uncertain about the whole thing. I really don't think many of these would make it as far as the surgery but far enough with HRT to affect irreversible changes.
As for myself I can't see myself going back to who I was before, that is more frightening to think about then having to go through the process I took to get to where I am now. After seven years I feel quite comfortable being Cindy.
Cindy
Quote from: Sarah on January 18, 2008, 03:34:39 PM
At the very least ones own doctor should be able to make the call and not just a Psychologist.
They can. And some doctors do make that call for themselves.
Although now that I think about it, are therapists qualified to make a *medical* diagnosis anyway? Psychs, yes of course... but is there any real legal "weight" behind a therapist's conclusions?
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on January 18, 2008, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 18, 2008, 03:34:39 PM
At the very least ones own doctor should be able to make the call and not just a Psychologist.
They can. And some doctors do make that call for themselves.
Although now that I think about it, are therapists qualified to make a *medical* diagnosis anyway? Psychs, yes of course... but is there any real legal "weight" behind a therapist's conclusions?
~Kate~
Nope, just as psychological diagnoses if they hold licenses to make diagnoses: clinical psychs and LCSWs. Psychiatric nurses and doctors can also make those mental disorder diagnoses. That's it.
No licernsed therapist will make a medical diagnosis.
But the surgeons prefer the cover. That's why there IS an SOC for HBS. It's a liability thing.
They wanna make sure that someone like the guy in Australia we ahve seen the TV clip about is not doing what he did.
So, I really doubt the psych issue is going away for people who don't want it.
N~
Unless socialist medicine can take a foothold in America, allowing surgery to be paid for through universal healthcare, I think the best thing at the moment is to just treat it as a "customer" situation. Personally, I prefer the Thai way of doing it, paying lipservice to the SOC, but not demanding a pathologizing "diagnosis." By treating it as an economic situation only, one only has to pay for the services and legally accept responsibility for the choice beforehand (already a given, since Americans can't sue Thai nationals). It's not perfect, since it places the onus on the individual to pay for the surgery--which lots of people can't afford--but I still think it's a hell of a lot better than the paternalism in having transsexuality be a medicalized, diagnosed condition.
Lia
I think there is something weird about the whole SRS needs letter, etc.
I can get my whole face reworked for 10h (which are a set of major surgeries
with much potential risks) by just signing something,
so I'm not even recognizeable
to my mother and look a different sex.
And a 2.5 hour lower risk op needs humongo gatekeepers.
Supposedly because the face ops can be reversed... Well, they
may be reversed, but its doubtful you'd look the same and
it would probably cost much more to get back what you've taken
away with much more risk than the original operations.
Rebuilding the nose for example is a much more involved
and risky operations than reducing it.
Would SRS be more accessible if it be easily reversed?
I think not. I think there's something else at play
than just liability here.
I think that men, are just horrified that someone would want
their genitals changed, and classify this person as mentally
unbalanced and such a person per definition needs to
be protected against itself. Its a paternalistic and macho
attitude.
I think the liability issue is just used as cover for
the TS much be crazy for even wanting this so
lets not patronize and participate in their crazyness.
They see us the same way as people who want to
remove a leg, This is absurd because our organ
at the end essentially has the same function as
before except reproduction. Plenty of women or
men don't have or want children so I don't know
why that can be held against us.
Quote from: Keira on January 18, 2008, 08:35:57 PM
I think that men, are just horrified that someone would want
their genitals changed, and classify this person as mentally
unbalanced and such a person per definition needs to
be protected against itself. Its a paternalistic and macho
attitude.
Exactly. There's a great article by Gayle Rubin in the early 80's that hints at this. The more statistically deviant the sexuality/behavior, the more likely the person to be considered nuts/unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions. She mentions an S/M case where the Sadist was convicted of battery because, in the judges view, no one with functioning mental faculties would consent to flagellating etc.
The current system in place is definitely more about preserving norms and pathologizing the transperson than about helping them, whatever therapists/psychologists may think.
Lia
Quote from: Keira on January 18, 2008, 08:35:57 PM
I think that men, are just horrified that someone would want
their genitals changed, and classify this person as mentally
unbalanced and such a person per definition needs to
be protected against itself. Its a paternalistic and macho
attitude.
Exactly. We're so screwed up about sexuality and gender in the West because of our patriarchal system, both religious and political, that anything deviating from safe, secure, familiar is either seen as a sickness or a sin, rather than healthy, natural variation. In my opinion, ANYTHING goes, as long as you are making your own, informed decision, not forcing that decision on another, and not harming another by acting on it.
Sadly, that's not the way most people see the world. Somehow my decision to live my life authentically and quietly is a huge threat. Meanwhile we have a rapist and embezzler most likely to be the next president in South Africa. Go figure...
Sorry all, not my usuall chipper self this morning, so if I sound a bit grouchy... sorry. >:(
Quote3. Many of the effects of HRT and most of the effects of surgery are permanent. A person who plans to undergo those types of processes should be fully aware of the permanence, risks, side-effects and make sure that he knows what he's getting into.
Many of the effects of HRT are permanent...true, but there are a whole host of other surgeries and drugs that have permanent, sometimes even delibitating effects much worse than the low % side-effects of HRT (well, except death). Anti-psychotic drugs that can make you suicidal, hmm yay?
I agree the person should be fully aware, but that doesn't take 12 sessions or 3 months weekly, to be able to know that...I knew 10x more about GID when I first saw a psychiatrist at the end of 2005...and 100x more when I saw one recently in 2007...yet I still need that diagnosis to change my legal name (well unless I get SRS first, like in Thailand, I bypass the whole letter thing).
Quote from: Keira on January 18, 2008, 08:35:57 PM
I think there is something weird about the whole SRS needs letter, etc.
...
I think the liability issue is just used as cover for
the TS much be crazy for even wanting this so
lets not patronize and participate in their crazyness.
They see us the same way as people who want to
remove a leg, This is absurd because our organ
at the end essentially has the same function as
before except reproduction. Plenty of women or
men don't have or want children so I don't know
why that can be held against us.
My inclination is to completely agree with this. I suspect that is exactly what the fear is, Keira. And that the surgeons who do that work don't want to have nasty things like "How is he, or, in one instance, she any different than Mengele and some of those Nazi-doctors doing horrid experiments on other human beings? "
WPATH by itself is hardly influential and strong enough to make this stick everywhere.
As Lia said, Thailand observes the SOC hardly at all, only enough to make the fuss go away if it should arise. Iran not at all and they do more surgeries than anyone (altho there is a large asterisk there) !
Nichole
In the U.K you have to scrap for everything and the psychiatrists here don't comply with the HBSOC anyway, so there seems little point in it's existance even though I think it's a good treatment guide. We have had to fight for HRT and fight even harder for referrals for surgery...
Also the psychiatrists over here don't believe gender dysphoria really exists, so where does that leave us?
Quote...don't believe gender dysphoria really exists...
WOW.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 20, 2008, 12:00:32 PM
Quote...don't believe gender dysphoria really exists...
WOW.
Sara
It's true. I can scan one of my letters from Charing Cross GIC to prove it. Also in the letter the psychiatrist said I had delusions of being female....
Quote from: Berliegh on January 20, 2008, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 20, 2008, 12:00:32 PM
Quote...don't believe gender dysphoria really exists...
WOW.
Sara
It's true. I can scan one of my letters from Charing Cross GIC to prove it. Also in the letter the psychiatrist said I had delusions of being female....
I am having trouble recovering from this..
Are you saying that the official policy of the Medical System in the UK is that Transexualism and ->-bleeped-<- is a delusion?
Quote from: Sarah on January 20, 2008, 04:32:16 PM
I am having trouble recovering from this..
Are you saying that the official policy of the Medical System in the UK is that Transexualism and ->-bleeped-<- is a delusion?
That's what the U.K psychiatrists at Charing Cross GIC say. They are both against us and are unwilling to help us. I can provide you with a truckload of evidence if needed. They have stated in several letters to my GP that Transexualism is a delusion?
According to Psychiatrist Donald Montgomery I am under the illusion of being female. Funny that as everyone thinks I'm female...
I no longer attend Charing Cross GIC...but I'm still working on a case with several others who also attended their clinic to challenge them in court.
No, no, that's ok.
I'll take your word for it.
It's just sort of astounding that such biggotry exists within the official system.
That's terrible.
Why do people go to this Charing Cross?
I keep hearing about it, but if they are full of $#!t then why do people go there?
Why not just get a private doctor and do it yourself.
Probably far cheaper in the long run ya?
I mean is this center some sort of requirement to go to for getting help in the UK?
That would suck, I mean I would just pay somebody.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 21, 2008, 03:27:13 PM
No, no, that's ok.
I'll take your word for it.
It's just sort of astounding that such biggotry exists within the official system.
That's terrible.
Why do people go to this Charing Cross?
I keep hearing about it, but if they are full of $#!t then why do people go there?
Why not just get a private doctor and do it yourself.
Probably far cheaper in the long run ya?
I mean is this center some sort of requirement to go to for getting help in the UK?
That would suck, I mean I would just pay somebody.
Sara
Not everyone has the financial means to pay privately. I don't for one. But I'd go find doctors willing to bend the rules, I won't let myself be imprisoned by defunct bureaucracy.
Transexualism and ->-bleeped-<- is a delusion?
For some it is. There is a running post about post GRS regrets with person who more than likely should not have got it. As Rachael says so perfectly, not all people who think they are sex X are.
Moreover there are a lot of things mixed in with this, the number of attempted suicides on this board alone are staggering. Some of them may arise out of GID, but others might have other factors, that would come into play.
But he is the real deal I think. Health care under the British system is rationed. They only have X amount of money per year. So there is a tendency to try to avoid putting people in a deal where they run up bills. And somewhere some person is trying to decide if X amount should be put into GID or better pre-natal care. I do not envy that choice.
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2008, 02:20:27 PM
Transexualism and ->-bleeped-<- is a delusion?
For some it is. There is a running post about post GRS regrets with person who more than likely should not have got it. As Rachael says so perfectly, not all people who think they are sex X are.
Moreover there are a lot of things mixed in with this, the number of attempted suicides on this board alone are staggering. Some of them may arise out of GID, but others might have other factors, that would come into play.
But he is the real deal I think. Health care under the British system is rationed. They only have X amount of money per year. So there is a tendency to try to avoid putting people in a deal where they run up bills. And somewhere some person is trying to decide if X amount should be put into GID or better pre-natal care. I do not envy that choice.
As far as I'm concerned he is not the real deal. I'm under no delusion nor are the doctors at University College Hospital who undertook my genetic intersexed testing. I can prove it's a medical condition in my case and have the documentation. Obviously it's not always the case and not everyone is intersexed but it still doesn't give them the right to make unfounded generalisations of individuals they have only ever seen once for a 20 minute appointment.
Posted on: January 22, 2008, 05:03:58 PM
Quote from: Schala on January 22, 2008, 01:52:42 PM
Not everyone has the financial means to pay privately. I don't for one. But I'd go find doctors willing to bend the rules, I won't let myself be imprisoned by defunct bureaucracy.
That's true but it's a catch 22 as their are no known qualified private gender psychiatrists either in the U.K.
Quote from: Berliegh on January 22, 2008, 05:03:58 PM
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2008, 02:20:27 PM
Transexualism and ->-bleeped-<- is a delusion?
For some it is. There is a running post about post GRS regrets with person who more than likely should not have got it. As Rachael says so perfectly, not all people who think they are sex X are.
Moreover there are a lot of things mixed in with this, the number of attempted suicides on this board alone are staggering. Some of them may arise out of GID, but others might have other factors, that would come into play.
But he is the real deal I think. Health care under the British system is rationed. They only have X amount of money per year. So there is a tendency to try to avoid putting people in a deal where they run up bills. And somewhere some person is trying to decide if X amount should be put into GID or better pre-natal care. I do not envy that choice.
As far as I'm concerned he is not the real deal. I'm under no delusion nor are the doctors at University College Hospital who undertook my genetic intersexed testing. I can prove it's a medical condition in my case and have the documentation. Obviously it's not always the case and not everyone is intersexed but it still doesn't give them the right to make unfounded generalisations of individuals they have only ever seen once for a 20 minute appointment.
Even someone with an 'obvious' intersex condition (easily detectable, not necessarily visually apparent) can get doctors deny truth or treatment. Call them delusional and what not...
I know a few who do have factors that aren't ambiguous (who obviously point to something intersex) and shrinks, docs and endos keep denying those factors exist.
I think it's more than a lack of desire to pay for those things. I think people get squeamish about the existance of something outside the neat little 'opposite sex' theory (that determines intersex to not exist).
People are affected by what we are taught to believe in. We tend to discount our eyes and our science before we discount firmly held ideas. The docs that Schala are referencing are good examples, regardless the scientific nature of their work.
People see what we expect to see most of the time; what we have reference to in our pasts.
The Caribs who greeted Columbus and the Indians on the Veracruz coast who first saw Cortez ships saw 'nothing.' They said so. It took some days of the ships actually being their until they were 'seen.'
For those who 'believe' either that IS or TS don't exist or cannot exist or that IS is always 'taken care of' at birth possibly are viewing something so very foreign to their concepts that they really are unable to comprehend what they are seeing.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 22, 2008, 05:36:28 PM
People are affected by what we are taught to believe in. We tend to discount our eyes and our science before we discount firmly held ideas. The docs that Schala are referencing are good examples, regardless the scientific nature of their work.
People see what we expect to see most of the time; what we have reference to in our pasts.
The Caribs who greeted Columbus and the Indians on the Veracruz coast who first saw Cortez ships saw 'nothing.' They said so. It took some days of the ships actually being their until they were 'seen.'
For those who 'believe' either that IS or TS don't exist or cannot exist or that IS is always 'taken care of' at birth possibly are viewing something so very foreign to their concepts that they really are unable to comprehend what they are seeing.
Nichole
No, these psychiatrists are making wild assuptions that we are all delusional....regardless of how convincingly passable we look or don't look in a 20 minute appointment.
Quote from: Berliegh on January 22, 2008, 06:01:33 PM
No, these psychiatrists are making wild assuptions that we are all delusional....regardless of how convincingly passable we look or don't look in a 20 minute appointment.
Of course, then we are all subject to seeing and interpreting behavior as we wish.
I am not trying to suggest that those doctors are competent and just being misunderstood, Berleigh. What i am suggesting is that what they belive overrides what their eyes actually see. Their brains interpret that in a way that allows them to say that you are delusional. They very literally, in John Lennon's words, "are looking through you."
N~
It takes me 20 minutes (granted I'm not a speed queen) to tune a guitar for a concert. Somehow it seems that it would take more than that to make a good decision about this.
Hi all
I go along with what Berliegh said about a twenty minute appointment. I didn't have a qualified therapist out in the toolies where I was living, I was lucky to have a psychiatrist whom I went to see once a month for my bipolar disorder. He sent me to the right places to see the right folks, one was the Clarke Institute for an evaluation. The second was to see and endocrinologist, both in Toronto around 240 miles return trip. Got the endo to establish my qualifications for a prescription for hormones which she sent to my physician in my home town. I did most of all the rest of this stuff on my own. My shrink who didn't know much more then I knew about Transexuality at least knew the right places I needed to go.
Now if you are intersexed Berlleigh hon, I can't see how in Sam Hell your docs could miss such a thing as IS. I am only a sensitive and I can feel stuff in people and probably be able to pick up on energy impulses such as that being emitted from something like that like extra organs in a person.. I can tell when a woman is pregnant just by putting my hand lightly on their abdomen. But you would think that these Dr's where you are must have sufficient modern medical implements at their disposal to detect something like part of a uterus and ovaries.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 23, 2008, 01:55:54 AM
Hi all
I go along with what Berliegh said about a twenty minute appointment. I didn't have a qualified therapist out in the toolies where I was living, I was lucky to have a psychiatrist whom I went to see once a month for my bipolar disorder. He sent me to the right places to see the right folks, one was the Clarke Institute for an evaluation. The second was to see and endocrinologist, both in Toronto around 240 miles return trip. Got the endo to establish my qualifications for a prescription for hormones which she sent to my physician in my home town. I did most of all the rest of this stuff on my own. My shrink who didn't know much more then I knew about Transexuality at least knew the right places I needed to go.
Now if you are intersexed Berlleigh hon, I can't see how in Sam Hell your docs could miss such a thing as IS. I am only a sensitive and I can feel stuff in people and probably be able to pick up on energy impulses such as that being emitted from something like that like extra organs in a person.. I can tell when a woman is pregnant just by putting my hand lightly on their abdomen. But you would think that these Dr's where you are must have sufficient modern medical implements at their disposal to detect something like part of a uterus and ovaries.
Cindy
Not everyone who is intersexed has internal female organs as well. Some can just have female chromosones and a female bone density.
The psychiatrists at Charing Cross GIC have no links with medical experts or links with people providing testing for intersexed conditions. This I had done independently somewhere else, so there is no connection with the two sources.
Charing Cross GIC have no idea I am intersexed and wouldn't ever bother to be interested or want to find out. The way Charing Cross GIC is run is very different and they don't have facilities for treatment or support. It is only based on psychiatry and psychiatric anylisis and is not related to the various treatments you would assiciate with gender dysphoria.
Who are these people?
Is this like the place of official refferal if you go to the NHS for treatment for such a thing?
Like "I am TS or IS, and I would like treatment" , "Ok, go to Charing Cross"?
I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me that people go there if they suck, unless it is part of the official state sponsored program in the UK or somhow part of the loop.
Also, why don't you go to France for diagnosis?
I mean, the tube runs accross the channel, why not just take some money saved for a few months and spend a weekend in France?
If you need to pay sombody over there then do it. French people are nice.
I mean, you all UK'eres talk about affordability like you have no income. Anybody wtioh any amount of income can at least save a couple of hundred bucks (or the UK equivalant in pounds or euros) in the amount of time that they are asking you to wait.
It seems like if the only options there are go through the NHS or go Private, I would go private. Even if you have to go outside for a diagnosis and save money for a while.
I mean, its just HRT.
For surgery, what with the costs involved, it might be worth the wait. But while you are waiting, you might as well be on HRT.
The surgery wait is actually the same for us, if not longer consdereing that most people don't have 60,000 dollars lying arround.
So I mean that's what I would do.
I would save a bit of cash, plan some Holiday time, and go to France.
(or wherever) and get the diagnosis, and the prescriptions, bring it back, and start HRT.
Then, I would go through the process needed for applying for surgery.
This is all of course assuming I live'ed there.
Now I have heard that there is at least one private therapist in the UK who is Trans, themself.
Even if they charge like 200 dollars an hour, it is still more efficiant in the long run than using the NHS.
I mean think about it. What do you do for a living? how much is your time worth?
Do you want to wait that long?
For the price of a nice weekend in Champagne or Venice or Naples(maybe cheaper considering train ticket prices, etc.) you could have a diagnosis and treatment referal for HRT.
Sure it's expensive, but it's cheaper than waiting.
Certainly at the rate I charge per hour.
I mean it sounds like by the time the NHS is done with you, you could have alredy been there and back several times if needed.
Or seen a thereapist in house in the UK privately, even if they charge a lot.
My two cents,
Sara
Hi Berliegh
That really burns me up that the Physician who diagnosed you as being IS and Charing Cross diagnosed you as delusional???? It don't make sense at all. I believe you have moved to Scotland to get the opinion of another Shrink, I hope that shrink can recognise the fact that you are IS. You may get better results on that one. If not maybe Frans might not be that bad of an Idea and you are still welcome to come to BC if you so desire.
Good luck and may God bless.
Cindy
Quote from: Sarah on January 23, 2008, 12:20:42 PM
Who are these people?
Is this like the place of official refferal if you go to the NHS for treatment for such a thing?
Like "I am TS or IS, and I would like treatment" , "Ok, go to Charing Cross"?
I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me that people go there if they suck, unless it is part of the official state sponsored program in the UK or somhow part of the loop.
For surgery, what with the costs involved, it might be worth the wait. But while you are waiting, you might as well be on HRT.
The surgery wait is actually the same for us, if not longer consdereing that most people don't have 60,000 dollars lying arround.
Now I have heard that there is at least one private therapist in the UK who is Trans, themself.
Even if they charge like 200 dollars an hour, it is still more efficiant in the long run than using the NHS.
I mean think about it. What do you do for a living? how much is your time worth?
Do you want to wait that long?
Or seen a thereapist in house in the UK privately, even if they charge a lot.
My two cents,
Sara
Ok Sarah.....In the U.K there are various points of referral in the U.K depending on where you live. Because I live in London I get the short straw of the postcode lottery and my PCT (Health Authority) sent me to Charing Cross in 2001. Not my choice at all but this where you get sent to if you live in London. Charing Cross GIC are really employed by the NHS to either stall or get rid of potential transsxuals. They are not employed to treat people but employed to stall them for a long as humanly possible.
Other NHS gender clinics around the U.K are more favourable and less damaging but if you live in a certain area you will not be able to go to another clinic outside of your PCT (Health Authority) area. I have now tried to go to a clinic in Scotland as they may be able to grant me a surgery referral which was declined along with HRT by Charing Cross GIC in 2003. But they say I must be a Scotish resident in order to access treatment in Scotland.
I saw a private consultant in 2003 to start on HRT which I was refused by Charing Cross. The NHS put the private consultant out of business because he was helping people with Gender Dysphoria. He has since been aquitted and the NHS (namely Charing Cross) lost their case.
There are no U.K qualified therapists in house who are able to provide SRS referrals and Dr Richard Curtis who you mention in your post (who is also trans) Dr Curtis is a qualified GP but is not a qualified psychiatrist, so I am not able to use him to access a referral. He charges $400 an hour by the way!
The only answer for U.K residents is to go overseas or search for a private consultant. The economical climate isn't good in our country and it's true many people are on poor wages trying to balance their lives against high income tax, high gas and fuel bills, expensive mortgages, expensive food costs which are not covered by the present low wage system.
I agree people shouldn't bitch so much about the lack of support and treatment within the NHS but at the same time we pay out high taxes and National Insurance directly towards the NHS. The only way (as I found out the hard way after 10 years of fighting with the NHS) is to get out of the system altogether and try and find the money to go elsewhere...
Well that sucks.
I'm sorry that you and others have had to go through that.
So they created a Gender Identity Center just to discourage Transexuals?
That sucks.
What a ripoff.
I am so sorry you guys have to go through that.
I would totally move to Scotland, except you probably can't due to job reasons huh?
Wow.
So at least you have a private therapist did I get you right?
That's good, at least you have that.
I don't know why there wouldn't be more private gender therapists in the UK, it seems like there is a huge market for it.
So they gave that one guy a hard time for his practice?
Like is it illeagal to have a private practice in the UK?
Or did they just not like his circumventing the system for people to give them referrals?
I guess so huh? I mean if they put in place a phoney gender center just to keep out transexuals, then they really must be corrupt.
Who has oversight over all this? There must be a party responsible that you could sue, or otherwise deal with legaly.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 23, 2008, 09:42:23 PM
Well that sucks.
I'm sorry that you and others have had to go through that.
So they created a Gender Identity Center just to discourage Transexuals?
So they gave that one guy a hard time for his practice?
Like is it illeagal to have a private practice in the UK?
Or did they just not like his circumventing the system for people to give them referrals?
I guess so huh? I mean if they put in place a phoney gender center just to keep out transexuals, then they really must be corrupt.
Sara
That is exactely what they are doing. You have nailed it......
Charing Cross GIC are corrupt and they put private consultant Dr Russell Reid out of business because he was helping transsexuals. They accused him in court of not complying with the HBSOC but in fact it's Charing Cross do not comply with the HBSOC. I, like many others supported him in his court case. The many transexuals who gave support for Russell was awesome. Charing Cross don't like private practitioners on their patch and it won't be long before they start on Richard Curtis as well.
http://russellreid.blogspot.com/
Charing Cross make too much money out of other PCT's (health authorities) and private comnsultants take patients away from them, so they can't make the money from those potential PCT's. A lot of it is to do with Charing Cross making money out of other PCT's out of the London area.
Charing Cross GIC is exactely how you put it Sarah, a phoney gender centre. It's set up by the NHS who never inspect or follow up progress reports on patients just as long as the transsexuals are out of the system. They have no treatment program or technicians, just 4 psychiatrists in a school room empolyed to bully, be little and intimidate transsexuals as much as possible.
I've moved on these days but it's still unfinished business and it's left a nasty taste in my mouth and the fact that I wasted 7 years of my life attending that clinic.
See "Something Rotten in the State of the Profession": http://www.pfc.org.uk/files/essays-transhealth.pdf