Howdy doo guys, dolls, etc.
It's your friend Nero here continuing his quest for understanding of you rare and lovely beings.
Quite curious about the self realization process of androgynees.
I understand that many of you identified as women, as transsexual for a time. I'm curious as to how you first came to that conclusion, and then how and why you realized it wasn't right.
So indulge me.
your friend,
the all-inquisitive Nero
Hi Nero,
For me, it was a feeling that I don't feel like a man.... therefore I must be a woman. That felt different but still not right. I had no interest in "passing" or being a girly-girl, I just wanted to like myself. I started taking 'mones and enjoyed the the feelings that they gave me. Then I realised that I was not taking them for the right reasons and that I am as much male as female.... half male and half female is not a whole of anything in the bi-gender world... so I thought I was nothing...
Finally I applied the description of the word androgyne to myself. It felt as if a door had opened in a dark hallway and the light of understanding flooded into me... I am like the pre-op TS who does not want to be male; however I don't believe I am female, and that is where I part company with the TS way of thinking...
hope this helps
Nigno
Quote from: Nero on January 24, 2008, 05:18:05 PM
I understand that many of you identified as women, as transsexual for a time. I'm curious as to how you first came to that conclusion, and then how and why you realized it wasn't right.
That's true for several of us, but by no means all.
As for me, I still am not completely sure. For a while I considered myself an MtF TS, although one in the milder end of the scale: it's been clear to me at least since puberty (and longer, I think) that I'd really have the other kind of body, and that there is a great deal of masculine behaviour that I just cannot learn. So far so good?
The other realisation came sometime last summer, when it dawned on me that there's also a great deal of feminine behaviour that is just about as hard for me to learn as the masculinity. In terms of
gender -- that is, socially -- I am about as close to the middle as I can get, and I prefer to stay there. I have no desire to transition, so by definition I am not a transsexual. If gender and sex were less tightly coupled I'd love to change my physical
sex to match my inner view of it, though.
The main point remains that for me being an androgyne is a matter of gender, not sex.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 25, 2008, 06:13:20 AMIf gender and sex were less tightly coupled I'd love to change my physical sex to match my inner view of it, though.
Interesting. May I ask what your inner view of your physical sex would be?
Quote from: Nero on January 25, 2008, 07:35:13 AM
Interesting. May I ask what your inner view of your physical sex would be?
Female, no question about that. I do appreciate the ability to have a heterosexual relationship with the person I love, and having a penis is a price I'm willing to pay, but it's definitely a price I'm paying. I'd much rather switch if that were an option.
Nfr
I never felt right as a boy, although I didn't know what to call that feeling. I was considered a sissy by others, and when I was sometimes "mistaken" for a girl, that felt good. In 1993 I had an awakening to myself as transgender, and embarked on the transition path.
During RLE, living in the world as a woman felt right to me, more right than living as a "man" ever had, however there were various things that started to hint that I wasn't quite like other TS people I met. For one, I quickly stopped caring about passing, it just didn't seem worth the effort. I also started to question whether I really wanted to go through immense expense and tethering myself to the medical establishment to change my body. While I still feel that I'd rather have a female body/appearance, the body I have is functional and I can usually deal with it.
I often look at being transgender as an interesting and unusual spiritual gift from the universe, and so my quest is figuring out how I can be and express who I am with the body I have. I feel more like a third gender, not male, not female either, something else entirely. All is subject to change though, I don't discount the possibility that I could wake up one day and decide to transition again. Sometimes living out in the middle of nowhere isn't so easy...
y2g
Once again the dinner hour looms, so must be brief. I don't know yet whether I am androgyne or TS to be.
I too knew that it is a delight to be thought female: eg., when the wait-person addresses wife, daughter, and me as ladies, or the person on the phone, hearing my voice, calls me Ms.
My closest friends tend to be female. Always have been. Closest is my wife, and I do enjoy our sex life, though I'm not sure whether I would care if it were not heterosexual. Most frustrating to me is when the male body is a barrier to social relations with women. I chafe at being treated as one of the enemy. Besides, the male body just doesn't fit my inner image of myself. I'd say I consider myself a 12 year-old, except I've learned to enjoy sex.
Simone
About this time last year I went mental because of death in the family, losing my freedom and my friends in coming back home and generally feeling cramped. I kept coming back to this sensation that had been following me since I can remember, the feeling that I was not a proper person, that I was half human.
Somehow I followed this feeling to gender, learned about TS people, decided that was it. I looked at my past and retconned it so I felt female all through my life, ignoring the male bits. Was certain, came out to close friends, family and GP.
Thank the Snails for inefficiency of the NHS, it gave me time to reflect, to ponder an' all that. I still had the feeling of wrongness as a female in myself. But with added pressure of a lot of change, aggro and upset.
Then I discovered androgyne, and I thought it was a dump bin for everyone else. The loser's pit.
But you know it made kind of sense.
So I found a site with a more thriving androgyne community (here) and read and wrote and learnt different ways of looking at androgyne till I had a perfect fit.
And you know what I feel legitimate for the first time, like a whole person...so whatever my little problems are, androgyne helps.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 25, 2008, 08:38:48 PM
About this time last year I went mental because of death in the family, losing my freedom and my friends in coming back home and generally feeling cramped. I kept coming back to this sensation that had been following me since I can remember, the feeling that I was not a proper person, that I was half human.
Somehow I followed this feeling to gender, learned about TS people, decided that was it. I looked at my past and retconned it so I felt female all through my life, ignoring the male bits. Was certain, came out to close friends, family and GP.
Thank the Snails for inefficiency of the NHS, it gave me time to reflect, to ponder an' all that. I still had the feeling of wrongness as a female in myself. But with added pressure of a lot of change, aggro and upset.
Then I discovered androgyne, and I thought it was a dump bin for everyone else. The loser's pit.
But you know it made kind of sense.
So I found a site with a more thriving androgyne community (here) and read and wrote and learnt different ways of looking at androgyne till I had a perfect fit.
And you know what I feel legitimate for the first time, like a whole person...so whatever my little problems are, androgyne helps.
You came out to everyone as a woman?
3 friends, 2 parents a sister a dog and a GP
Why did you think you were a woman? Because you had no 'fix'?
yes, and because there was something fundamentally awkward and wrong with how I approached things, and that thing seemed to be centred around gender. And the TS's were the only role models I found.
May I ask why you don't feel like a man?
I am still trying to figure some things out but I am female bodied and never really felt quite right being a female. When I was younger I felt that "ok well if I don't like being female, then I must want to be male.". It wasn't until I got older that I realized that I wouldn't be entirely happy being male either. So then I was just confused. It wasn't until I did more research about myself and TGism until I realized that this is where I fit. It just works for now.
Quote
I often look at being transgender as an interesting and unusual spiritual gift from the universe, and so my quest is figuring out how I can be and express who I am with the body I have. I feel more like a third gender, not male, not female either, something else entirely. All is subject to change though, I don't discount the possibility that I could wake up one day and decide to transition again. Sometimes living out in the middle of nowhere isn't so easy...
y2g
agree ;)
Pica, Jai,
YES Yes, yes thank you. The words i could not find. For me this has nothing to do with procreation. I know I slide across the spectrum; male wishing to be female, female wishing to be male, and very rarely stable in the middle (inner peace).
"You have given birth to a beautiful, androgyne baby"
No chance,
Trust a gender role on the poor thing.... "it's a boy"... and thats it, blue for the next 8 years (I always liked green myself).
I think that it is about not being able to get in a box and then staying there.
On my more femme days I consider taking my (TS) partners pills..... and have done
Other days I berate myself for the very thought.
I know I am not fully male, but I'm not female either - only one place left for me :D
in the middle
Nigno
Quote from: Nero on January 25, 2008, 09:18:53 PM
May I ask why you don't feel like a man?
It's not that, it's more that I do not feel that me as a man is enough, that to describe me needs more terminology than man. I work in a very masculine environment, in a pub near a stadium of one of the top football teams in the country, and to see 'man' is not a full description of me. I do not see men and think 'that is me' even effeminate men (oddly enough I find effeminate men a little creepy, no idea why). It's like a connection or a vision of oneself in a group...and I do not have that with men.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2008, 09:04:25 PM
It's like a connection or a vision of oneself in a group...and I do not have that with men.
If I understand you correctly, that goes for me, too. I cannot imagine being part of "a night out with the guys". And I refuse to join any organization that excludes women--for social justice reasons, yes, but mostly because I don't identify with them, I don't feel I'm one of them.
Simone
I could go out for a night with the guys, and enjoy it. But it wouldn't make me a guy.
Quote
It's not that, it's more that I do not feel that me as a man is enough, that to describe me needs more terminology than man.
Quote
It's like a connection or a vision of oneself in a group...and I do not have that with men.
Well put. Couldn't have put it better. Cheers to that!! :icon_drunk:
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2008, 09:04:25 PM
It's like a connection or a vision of oneself in a group...and I do not have that with men.
Yes, that's exactly how I feel about women.
While I can relate with virtually anyone (man or woman) on a one on one basis, I feel little connection with women as a collective group. The same apples to men as a collective group. I do not feel resonation or affinity with either gender group - nor do I envy the members of either gender group.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Me too.
Individual men and women are fine, and so are mixed-gender groups. But when men gather in one corner to do male stuff and women in the opposite corner to do female stuff, it's time for me to feel excluded and out of place.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 27, 2008, 06:48:16 AM
Individual men and women are fine, and so are mixed-gender groups. But when men gather in one corner to do male stuff and women in the opposite corner to do female stuff, it's time for me to feel excluded and out of place.
Oh, I never feel excluded when the genders go into their respective huddles! I usually have a genuine interest in what each group is doing whether decorating cupcakes or repairing a lawn mower. I enjoy participating and feel equally at home in the kitchen or the tool shed. (The guys do get edgy at times when a female joins their circle though.) I appreciate practical and purposeful endeavors and greatly enjoy pleasant conversation in both groups. What I don't have an interest in is six-pack body building or the newest nail polish fashions and the ilk... you know, the femme and macho gender stuff. Gender, in this sense, is area where I do not fit in.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Well, yes, excluded is too strong a word. Mostly it's simply that when the genders separate they are bound to eventually drift towards more extremely gendered topics. At that point it becomes a matter of choosing between six-pack body building and the newest nail polish (or the equivalent), which means I'm going to feel out of place.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 27, 2008, 06:48:16 AM
Me too.
Individual men and women are fine, and so are mixed-gender groups. But when men gather in one corner to do male stuff and women in the opposite corner to do female stuff, it's time for me to feel excluded and out of place.
Nfr
That is how I felt all throughout childhood, but then, and in my teen years, I just figured that it was due to my introverted nature, but I did for a long time really want to be a part of the guy's group because what they talked about was infinitely more interesting to me than the giggling girls that seemed pretty alien to me, but I knew that to the guys I'd just be "that girl" and to the girls I was also "that girl". So instead of trying to squeeze into one exclusive gender group or another I just made a few close friends and kept with them exclusively, rarely ever mixing in, except later on in high school.
I used to think maybe I should have been born male because of how I naturally gravitated to them in social settings, but I found this to be untrue, and since I always knew I wasn't ever going to fit in with most of the females, when I found out what androgyne was, the light-bulb clicked and has never flickered since.
My first clue was that I've never been treated as a woman or a man by women or men. I was always something different. This was brought to my attention last night. I went to a concert and got caught between two groups of moshers. I was the only 'girl' not getting pushed around because I was pushing back and standing my ground while trying to help my friend keep people off of her. I felt very solitary and different in that crowd. Guys will (sometimes) look out for girls and try not to hit them. I was getting hit as hard as the guys. It was weird and yet completely normal for me. I'm just there and no one quite knows what to make of me.
One big thing for me is that I don't understand the differences between men and women other than knowing that they are there. I relate better to men than women which made me think I was FtM for a bit, but I had no desire to change my body. I like men and I want to have kids and a "normal" family life (what I consider normal is probably a little off, but hey, it works for me), so in that sense a female body is very practical in my situation.
I consider myself pregendered because I view gender much the way children do. My mind just didn't mature the same way my peers' minds did, I suppose. "Like a 12 year old who has learned to enjoy sex." Well said.
I prefer to think of us androgynes as evolved. It's the binaries who need to catch up.
I thought I was a woman because I didn't know there was an alternative to Male.
But, thank God, I read some books. I know for a fact now that my teen yearnings to be female or pretty was my unconscious trying to tell me that my body was going the wrong way. Sometimes I feel very feminine, but I never feel masculine even though I tried to fake it around others.
The knowledge that one is neither male or female or both is an unusual one. How do you know such a thing? Only by knowing it, but how can we know it? It is a sometimes confusing state. I don't worry about how do I know it so much anymore. I am not a man. I do know this. I am not a woman. I do know this. Whatever I truly am may always remain nameless.
I've come to realize there are no fringe benefits being a fringe gendered person. I really wish there were others I could mix with at least on occasion. Sometimes, I still feel alone. Sometimes, I feel the universe runs through me and I don't feel alone.
Today, I feel alone.
Quote from: Rebis on February 02, 2008, 05:07:30 PM
Today, I feel alone.
Me too. Today was not a great day.
Quote from: Rebis on February 02, 2008, 05:07:30 PM
The knowledge that one is neither male or female or both is an unusual one. How do you know such a thing? Only by knowing it, but how can we know it? It is a sometimes confusing state. I don't worry about how do I know it so much anymore. I am not a man. I do know this. I am not a woman. I do know this. Whatever I truly am may always remain nameless.
I've come to realize there are no fringe benefits being a fringe gendered person. I really wish there were others I could mix with at least on occasion. Sometimes, I still feel alone. Sometimes, I feel the universe runs through me and I don't feel alone.
Today, I feel alone.
I often feel alone with this too. Good question, how do we know... especially given the fact that who we are isn't a readily understood option within trans-land. With as much soul searching as I've done to come to this current understanding of myself, it sometimes seems as though an aspect of being androgyne is being permanently afloat in a universe of uncertainty. After all, there is no "transition" to become androgyne, and no set of goals to be met, unlike what our TS sisters/brothers can do.
The only fringe benefits I can think of are those 60s era jackets with the fringe on them... and I don't think I want to wear one of those. ;)
Z
We should all gather and be alone together.
We should build a little androgyne town for ourselves.
Quote from: Jaimey on February 02, 2008, 03:41:31 PM
I relate better to men than women which made me think I was FtM for a bit, but I had no desire to change my body. I like men and I want to have kids and a "normal" family life (what I consider normal is probably a little off, but hey, it works for me), so in that sense a female body is very practical in my situation.
I consider myself pregendered because I view gender much the way children do. .
Swap the F's and the M's and I'm there.
We may be alone in our little pockets, but we are not alone. We can practically finish each other's sentences.
I'd like an andro town, I'd like to be the landlord of the pub/saloon, a little Western town for ourselves.
WANTED: The Manly Boys; For Siding With One Of The Old Binaries.
Quote from: Rebis on February 03, 2008, 02:48:40 PM
We should all gather and be alone together.
Maybe we should have some androgyne gatherings... east coast (I'll help organize that one), west coast, England... Mars...
Quote from: Jaimey on February 03, 2008, 03:19:07 PM
We should build a little androgyne town for ourselves.
I say we just convert the towns we already live in... hehe >:D
y2g
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 03, 2008, 04:07:45 PM
We may be alone in our little pockets, but we are not alone. We can practically finish each other's sentences.
That's true. It's nice to have people who understand.
I can be the town baker. I'll make androgynous cakes and pies and candies so we can all get androgynously fat. >:D
I could either be some kind of town clerk, or else, sleep in peoples' garages and do odd jobs. Plus wear a poncho.
I almost did the same as Pica Pica.
As soon as I understood gender I new I was not "right". After a ton of searching and trying on many, many hats MtF fit the best. I knew it was not a 100% match, but was far better than what I was. I was settled on it and started looking for more and more information as it is not something to be taken lightly. I was looking up androgyne as temporary stop on my way as I was not ready, willing or able to really even start to transition. I was almost to the point of letting my mom know as she would probably take it best.
I always thought I hated androgenous looks. After my discovery, I realized it was not that I hated it. I hated that it applied to me on some level and it scared me, maybe a bit jealous as well. That was a hell of a thing to find out.
After reading here the past few days I started letting down my guard on mannerisms and thoughts. While reading this site last night and watching a movie, one recommended on here I might add (The Lake House), I lost it. Just broke down, my male side fought it. I will give it credit, it put up a hell of a fight.
How do I know I found myself?
When I found what I truly was, it was like going from black and white to color at the flick of a switch. I do not mean "oh, that is what I am", I mean it rocked me to the core. The whole thing has hit me so hard that I have been trying to document my whole life and while doing so re-evaluate everything. All the problems in my life suddenly became clear, even my sexual desires which were fuzzy on some things, suddenly I can see what they are. I even look at porn differently now, things I sort of liked or were unsure of have changed.
It was/is really strange to be honest.
My light switch was a trio of songs on an MP3 player whilst walking my dog.
(The songs were...
I can't remember the first one...
Freak Show - Gothic Archies
Here Comes the Summer -Undertones
They make no sense as to why I clicked to them.)
Now the game is to see what that switch means to you, and that is actually quite an enjoyable experience, good luck with it.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 05:01:50 AM
My light switch was a trio of songs on an MP3 player whilst walking my dog.
(The songs were...
I can't remember the first one...
Freak Show - Gothic Archies
Here Comes the Summer -Undertones
They make no sense as to why I clicked to them.)
Now the game is to see what that switch means to you, and that is actually quite an enjoyable experience, good luck with it.
What in the Sam Hill has that to do with my topic?
Well it just shows that light switches are the key to becoming androgynous. :D
Well I never really realized it through out my life, although it should have been obvious. I was always arguing and saying that "females don't necessarily work like this and males don't necessarily work like that, I mean I don't work like that". I never could argue my points on what other people did, never truly clicked that perhaps I was the different one and not the other people. I always kinda preferred hanging out with girls (pretty much all my friends are girls) and I'm perpetually frustrated that girls don't talk openly talk to me because I'm a guy. (I always feel like they only want to date me and that they feel like I only want to date them which I kinda hate)
But I only realized that I'm andro when I got confused for a girl on the one forum, (I take things a bit literally sometimes and I never really knew there was a distinction between physical sex and gender so it bothered me a little bit, I felt like I was lying by omission) then when she almost flat out stated that I was a girl I decided that I should probably tell her the truth. So I told her, and she said something about she won't think of me any differently and quickly added that she won't keep on thinking of me as a girl, to which I replied that I don't really care about which she thinks I am. (and I put my foot in my mouth rather badly there) At which point it hit me like a ton of bricks, I don't care which because I don't associate with either. So yeah that's pretty much my (very long) story, though since then I've thought that perhaps I'm a MtF, but I don't think that I'm only female.
Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2008, 05:08:45 AM
What in the Sam Hill has that to do with my topic?
We're not just enlightened androgynes, we're enlightened thread hijackers. >:D
My light bulb went off as soon as I read the word androgyne. It was an epiphany of epic proportions!
Quote from: sd on February 04, 2008, 03:35:47 AM
How do I know I found myself?
When I found what I truly was, it was like going from black and white to color at the flick of a switch. I do not mean "oh, that is what I am", I mean it rocked me to the core. The whole thing has hit me so hard that I have been trying to document my whole life and while doing so re-evaluate everything. All the problems in my life suddenly became clear, even my sexual desires which were fuzzy on some things, suddenly I can see what they are. I even look at porn differently now, things I sort of liked or were unsure of have changed.
It was/is really strange to be honest.
Very well put. My life changed from black & white to color too. It was so intense and that one realization did what years of contemplation couldn't it cleaned me true.
Posted on: February 04, 2008, 07:10:10 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on February 04, 2008, 06:36:43 PM
Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2008, 05:08:45 AM
What in the Sam Hill has that to do with my topic?
We're not just enlightened androgynes, we're enlightened thread hijackers. >:D
My light bulb went off as soon as I read the word androgyne. It was an epiphany of epic proportions!
I'm such a dope that I continued to struggle with it even though I could see it right in front of me. I had to read some of Leslie Feinberg's books that say it's not necessary to be either of the top two.
I swear to God that I can be an idiot. In fact, it may be my middle name - Rebis Idiot
Mumble
Quote from: Rebis on February 04, 2008, 07:17:14 PM
I'm such a dope that I continued to struggle with it even though I could see it right in front of me. I had to read some of Leslie Feinberg's books that say it's not necessary to be either of the top two.
From reading Feinberg, Bornstein, etc., I understood from an intellectual level early on that it was possible to be something other than the binary choices, however it took a longer time to manifest that reality into my life.
y2g
Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2008, 05:08:45 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 05:01:50 AM
My light switch was a trio of songs on an MP3 player whilst walking my dog.
(The songs were...
I can't remember the first one...
Freak Show - Gothic Archies
Here Comes the Summer -Undertones
They make no sense as to why I clicked to them.)
Now the game is to see what that switch means to you, and that is actually quite an enjoyable experience, good luck with it.
What in the Sam Hill has that to do with my topic?
that's what happened to create the moment where I was enlightened to androgyny. That was the crucial moment of the enlightenment process, those songs, that dog, that moment.
Too bad you forgot the first song.
What if we could play those same songs in the same order over the public airwaves and create Billions of androgynes (nearly enough to change a light bulb)?
What a wonderful world it would be! :laugh:
Hello Nero,
This is a very interesting question.
Growing up I definitely identified more with the women around me.
My father was away much of the time, either on business trips or
pursuing "masculine" interests - fishing, hunting, card playing, etc.
I remember thinking at an early age that my mother was beautiful
and I very much wanted to be like her. My favorite aunt had no
children of her own and favored me with her attention.
The summer between fifth and sixth grades I decided that I really
was supposed to be a girl and began to seriously crossdress at
every opportunity.
My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.
There was no sexual component to my desire to be a girl until
much later (college). My father basically wrote me off and focused
his attention/affection upon my younger brother. My mother's
feelings were less clear.
I alternately went through periods of attempting to be "normal" and
desiring to be female. I had girlfriends and several close male friends,
but never had any homosexual inclinations.
I always felt more comfortable among women and eventually married
my best friend. Somewhere during the thirty-three years of our marriage
my sexual gratification became strongly associated with my being "dressed".
My wife and I are still best friends, but our sex life has faded to distant
memory and she wants nothing to do with what she terms my "sick fetish".
I still identify more with women most of the time. I've sought professional
help on several occasions, been treated for depression, and for the better
part of a year taken female hormones .
My profession keeps me away from home often. My women's clothing
and cosmetics stay in the trunk of my car and I usually "dress" when
away from home at night in the privacy of my hotel rooms or sometimes
if I am driving long distances. Sometimes I do go out while "dressed".
I would be perfectly happy if I could "dress" all the time in lingerie,
women's slacks and tops, and sandals or running shoes. I do really
wish my breasts were a little larger and that I had long hair, but
I have no desire to be totally female any longer. Quite honestly,
most of the time I wish I no longer had any male sexual organs.
Mostly, I just wish I could be ignored by society and accepted by
the few people I truly care about. I'm very introverted and have
never been overly ambitious regarding career. Most people see me
as a nice, helpful person who doesn't have much of a life.
I hope this helps. I enjoy reading your posts - they really make me
think about my own situation, and are probably a major reason I feel
most comfortable within the Androgyne category of the forum.
Calyx
Quote from: Calyx on February 05, 2008, 11:40:59 PM
Hello Nero,
This is a very interesting question.
Growing up I definitely identified more with the women around me.
My father was away much of the time, either on business trips or
pursuing "masculine" interests - fishing, hunting, card playing, etc.
I remember thinking at an early age that my mother was beautiful
and I very much wanted to be like her. My favorite aunt had no
children of her own and favored me with her attention.
The summer between fifth and sixth grades I decided that I really
was supposed to be a girl and began to seriously crossdress at
every opportunity.
My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.
There was no sexual component to my desire to be a girl until
much later (college). My father basically wrote me off and focused
his attention/affection upon my younger brother. My mother's
feelings were less clear.
I alternately went through periods of attempting to be "normal" and
desiring to be female. I had girlfriends and several close male friends,
but never had any homosexual inclinations.
I always felt more comfortable among women and eventually married
my best friend. Somewhere during the thirty-three years of our marriage
my sexual gratification became strongly associated with my being "dressed".
My wife and I are still best friends, but our sex life has faded to distant
memory and she wants nothing to do with what she terms my "sick fetish".
I still identify more with women most of the time. I've sought professional
help on several occasions, been treated for depression, and for the better
part of a year taken female hormones .
My profession keeps me away from home often. My women's clothing
and cosmetics stay in the trunk of my car and I usually "dress" when
away from home at night in the privacy of my hotel rooms or sometimes
if I am driving long distances. Sometimes I do go out while "dressed".
I would be perfectly happy if I could "dress" all the time in lingerie,
women's slacks and tops, and sandals or running shoes. I do really
wish my breasts were a little larger and that I had long hair, but
I have no desire to be totally female any longer. Quite honestly,
most of the time I wish I no longer had any male sexual organs.
Mostly, I just wish I could be ignored by society and accepted by
the few people I truly care about. I'm very introverted and have
never been overly ambitious regarding career. Most people see me
as a nice, helpful person who doesn't have much of a life.
I hope this helps. I enjoy reading your posts - they really make me
think about my own situation, and are probably a major reason I feel
most comfortable within the Androgyne category of the forum.
Calyx
Hi Calyx, My heart skipped a beat reading the description of your life and how you are getting along. I felt abit sad at the end there, 'being seen as someone with not much of a life.' :(
I have myself mixed feelings about being classified as an androgyne. This at best describes the way I appear to the world. I still have a masculine side to me, but would eventually prefer the world to see me as 100% female. Hormones have had a marvellous affect on my mood, I am alot happier and calmer. My blood tests revealed my liver and kidneys are in good order, that was relief, was abit worried about that for some reason, I had misused meds in the past but luckily no lasting ill-effects.
As you can imagine, in my part of the world, being out and about causes people to treat me decidedly differently to others. Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much. It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will. I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore. ;)
I have discovered by reading many of the posts written by androgynes on here, I can identify with many of them. I am not overly female, not overly male in my thinking.
I protect my friends and loved ones, and have been in afew fights because of this, and I stand by what I say and do, but at the same time will admit when I am wrong (sometimes reluctantly) and like to review the situation before I commit to anything. I was told by a therapist that I am very 'self-aware'. Which can be a gift and a curse. My sense of humour can be quite childish and weird at times, and I have been described as child-like, which seems to be a common theme with androgynes.
Anywho, most of the time I just like to identify with being human. I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that. :)
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that. :)
well stop it. You're making the rest of look bad.
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I protect my friends and loved ones, and have been in afew fights because of this, and I stand by what I say and do, but at the same time will admit when I am wrong (sometimes reluctantly) and like to review the situation before I commit to anything. I was told by a therapist that I am very 'self-aware'. Which can be a gift and a curse. My sense of humour can be quite childish and weird at times, and I have been described as child-like, which seems to be a common theme with androgynes.
I'm starting to think that these traits have to be related to androgyne in some way. Man...I should go back to school and take some more gender studies classes (too bad there's not much money in social sciences...).
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much. It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will. I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore. ;)
I fully believe this as well and think a lot of people have been "ruined" this way.
My mother used to fret over the fact that she did not think I could say no to anyone about anything.
Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 12:12:54 AM
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much. It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will. I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore. ;)
I fully believe this as well and think a lot of people have been "ruined" this way.
My mother used to fret over the fact that she did not think I could say no to anyone about anything.
I have to "act" angry or depressed in order to get attention. Even if I just say "that bothers me", it's taken like I said nothing.
It's too weird that we share these traits.
If we could get someone to put up the money, there's a company that maps your DNA for about $1000.00. We could try to get as large a pool as possible and start doing studies on the psychology, nature, the DNA comparisons, and personality traits of us.
Maybe we could get a grant from somewhere. May as well do it ourselves. No one else takes us seriously. Hee hee
Quote from: Rebis on February 07, 2008, 03:01:55 PM
If we could get someone to put up the money, there's a company that maps your DNA for about $1000.00. We could try to get as large a pool as possible and start doing studies on the psychology, nature, the DNA comparisons, and personality traits of us.
Maybe we could get a grant from somewhere. May as well do it ourselves. No one else takes us seriously. Hee hee
That would be interesting to do, too bad I do not have a grand sitting around handy.
Would they even be able to identify that though, it may not even be dna based.
We seem to be so largely ignored, it could be difficult to try and accomplish it. I have seen some pretty stupid studies though...
Anyone know anything about grants or maybe a university department head?
Posted on: February 07, 2008, 05:14:24 PM
Ok, forget the grant part... :laugh:
That was quick and easy, now we just need someone to take it on. The money is there.
Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.
http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW (http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW)
Quote from: Calyx on February 05, 2008, 11:40:59 PM
My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.
Good evening and welcome Calyx.
<offers hand>
My heart goes out to you upon reading that. Having experienced the opposite (I'm ftm), I can't know the pain of the abuse you suffered for dressing in the clothes you felt comfortable in, but I can sympathize. I was forced into dresses and skirts for church and private religious schools. The shame was so great, I'd sit in church and hang my head, not daring to meet anyone's eyes.
I'm so sorry to hear of your abuse.
Nero
Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
The money is there.
Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.
http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW (http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW)
I think it's doable. Just needs the right people.
Quote from: Rebis on February 06, 2008, 07:54:27 AM
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that. :)
well stop it. You're making the rest of look bad.
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Yeah, that's another one of my many abilities. lol :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Rebis on February 08, 2008, 07:50:53 AM
Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
The money is there.
Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.
http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW (http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW)
I think it's doable. Just needs the right people.
Indeed. Anyone here who is good at this sort of thing?
Okay.
We get the funding/grant/whatever
we develop tests to work out which traits are genetic and which are learned or whatever
we get DNA samples and send them out.
we analyze the data.
We use the grant money to pay for clusters of us to gather in our respective regions and to determine other traits.
We ask for more grant money.
we cut up dead androgynes
Much better than cutting up live androgynes.
Nfr
I don't see what difference it makes whether they are dead or alive when they are cut up.
>:D
What if nothing was found?
It would be interesting to see if there was a genetic link though, but I rekon it would be more like us to be identifiable by an absence of certain genes rather than the genes we actually have...
My DNA won't say much, it is shot full of holes, I sit too close to the tv and like to stare into the microwave. :icon_dribble:..
Not sure what my enlightenment process was. Seems to have been a process of eliminiation for me. Growing up I assumed everyone was just like me but I was always confused about why people knew the rules and I didn't...I assumed I had my head in a cloud, which I did. In my late teens I tried various labels and researched, listened to people identifying as various things and tried them (the labels and the people) on for size. Over the course of about 10 years I went throught the following: Male? - no; Female? - not really; cross dresser? - nope; gay? - well that dude is nice but I did not really enjoy touching his tackle as much as my own so no; bisexual? - nice idea in theory but to be honest I like women more; ->-bleeped-<-? - They seem a bit like a fantasy to me, besides this was something men did....male? - we went through that already.... When I discovered non-binary genders I felt it was right, it was a Hazzah! moment provided by the internet (it might even have been androgyne online), but it took a long time for me to get my head around it, as in "I'm not male or female but how can I not be male or female"? kind of thing.
While it seems so odd to all be so similar.
Actually it should not feel odd, it should feel RIGHT!
This is what we were missing our whole lives from our peers. This is what everyone else experienced their whole lives (they just don't make a big deal about it). Men understanding men, women understanding women... We were always on the outside looking in, for the first time we are experiencing that camaraderie.
And it feels wonderful!
I am pretty sure I can safely say that there is something medically/genetically different about us from other people. I can trace my issues and feelings clear back to the day I first learned about boys and girls differences in clothes as well as the first time I learned the difference between genitalia. Both times I remember thinking what I was being told was wrong and unfair. I wasn't even 5 years old. I remember these events vividly, especially the second, not that I want to picture my cousin naked in the tub with me, but...
Quote from: NickSister on February 10, 2008, 06:44:15 PM
but I was always confused about why people knew the rules and I didn't.
Exactly.
You're right, sd! It does feel right! It's so much better now that I'm not alone anymore!
Well... how did I realize. First, I figure I was just a feminine guy. At the point I realized I was a witch it threw me for a loop because usually females are witches, not males. I then started thinking back about my past, and realized that I pretty much always was a little fuzzy on the gender issue (like when I would help my sister with her makeup, paint my nails with my girlfriends, braid each other's hair).
At that time though I thought that gender and sexuality were linked. So I thought oh hey, maybe I'm gay. But no, that wasn't it, I liked girls. So then I realized that I'm bisexual, okay great, sure whatever. I always tossed around the word androgenous, but never actually THOUGHT about it. And then a week or so ago someone mentioned I should look into it and I realized "Oh hey, I'm androgenous." And then I started worrying that I wasn't bisexual (what an odd thing, most people worry that they are, not that they aren't). But then I realized that no, I am still bi.
I guess these things were never really big revelations to me. Here's my analogy... I drink a lot of Mountain Dew. A while back they came out with a new style for the design on the can. When I bought my first six pack of the new dew I said "Huh, new style. Cool." and drank it. Did it change what was inside the can? Nah. Heck, I think it even says on it "Same dew, new view" or something cheesy like that.
A funny thing happened when my sister and I compared notes as adults. I am the oldest of 4; she is the youngest, 11 years my junior, and the only girl. Every time my mother became pregnant (after me), the folks said they were trying for a girl. So I grew up thinking my folks preferred girls. My sister grew up thinking they preferred boys.
It's hard to write objectively about childhood, but I think that more than thinking I was a girl, I just ignored the differences, and treated gender as an accident of birth, like religion, ethnic heritage, hair color or skin color. I was equally happy playing dolls with a girl friend, football with a boy friend, or being alone with myself. I had cross dressing episodes, but mostly I had such a hard time living up to my reputation as a Brain and not a clue what to do about questions of gender. Things grew a little more complicated when the adults around me insisted I invite a girl to the senior prom.
They picked out the girl and we remained close for about a year until she gave me an ultimatum: if I continued to study engineering, she would sever the relationship (I continued and she severed). I remember often looking in the mirror worrying that others would see I really was a girl, not a boy. Sex had no place in my life until I was a fifth year senior in college; I discovered, not only was it enjoyable, but it was a ticket to a close friendship with a woman.
Each time my wife was pregnant, I worried the child would be a boyish boy who would find me out and despise me. I've had 3 girls and a boy. Yet, knowing each of my children has been so rewarding, I glad I took the chance. Each has been in counseling at some point, but each seems willing to put up with me.
Becoming aware of androgyny as option is quite recent, but as I read about it here, I discover I have had similar feelings and made similar decisions to others in this forum. But I've felt like an outsider so long, so unlike anyone else (what other male, for instance, would hide a lipstick in his jewelry box), that I don't feel enlightened yet. The newbie tag fits me pretty well. I find I want feminine breasts (I don't know why), but my genitals are OK as a ticket to being with my best friend. The weird tag fits pretty well, too.
Still trying to sort it all out,
Simone
I'm the 'male' that hides lipstick in their handbag ;)
I hope you don't mind me asking but your post has made me might curious. Why would a girl break up with you for studying engineering? How did your parants just 'pick out' a girl? and How do your folks view you now?
Good luck on your journey to find enlightenment. I've found some but there is always more to be had.
Quote from: NickSister on February 19, 2008, 05:56:32 PM
I'm the 'male' that hides lipstick in their handbag ;)
Well, I don't have lipstick anymore due to an act of fate (did you know that stuff turns really nasty if you leave it on the dash of your car?) but neither does my wife. However, I do have lip balm dangling off of my bag in the shape of a cute little froofy cheerleader with pink hair...
And I can think of a TON of reasons to break up with an engineer. They are arrogant know it all geeks that will somehow have a Star Wars quote for EVERYTHING. They also are crappy kissers. I know this of course because I went to school at an engineering school (I am a computer scientist) and my wife started in college as an electrical engineer (but switched to computer science). (Please be aware that when I tease engineers, it is in an endearing way, 75% of my friends are engineers.)
Quote from: Kir on February 19, 2008, 06:15:02 PM
have a Star Wars quote for EVERYTHING.
your lack of faith is disturbing
Quote from: Kir on February 19, 2008, 06:15:02 PM
Quote from: NickSister on February 19, 2008, 05:56:32 PM
I'm the 'male' that hides lipstick in their handbag ;)
Well, I don't have lipstick anymore due to an act of fate (did you know that stuff turns really nasty if you leave it on the dash of your car?) but neither does my wife. However, I do have lip balm dangling off of my bag in the shape of a cute little froofy cheerleader with pink hair...
And I can think of a TON of reasons to break up with an engineer. They are arrogant know it all geeks that will somehow have a Star Wars quote for EVERYTHING. They also are crappy kissers. I know this of course because I went to school at an engineering school (I am a computer scientist) and my wife started in college as an electrical engineer (but switched to computer science). (Please be aware that when I tease engineers, it is in an endearing way, 75% of my friends are engineers.)
Lukily your wifes ability to quote starwars out-weighs all the other negatives :D
How many Jawas does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
no idea, I guess they'd have to stand on each others shoulders
UTINI!!!
that joke is rubbish, as the ewoks would say.
Beechawawa
First, I chose engineering to be among the first colonists of space, which I figured would require more resources than any one country could afford thus leading to international peace.
My parents picked a very bright, strong-minded junior, daughter of family friends, and strongly suggested I call her. When we went to her senior prom the following year, she brought a girl friend along. I don't quite know why I mention that.
My mother, too, opposed my choice of major; both preferred I study science or liberal arts. Were I cynical I might observe that engineers get their hands dirty with practicalities. When I was a student, I found engineering students had wider interests than did liberal arts students. After being stubborn for 3 years, I switched to philosophy in order to raise my grades enough to graduate (Computer Science was a graduate discipline, but philosophy, logic in particular, was one way to study computers).
Dad died when I was 24. I felt fortunate he lived to see me marry, graduate, and start a job. My mom has moderate Alzheimer's, so I have no idea what she thinks. I went through a period of not staying in touch (and still live about 3000 miles from the rest of the family) because I felt she was too controlling, but re-established contact when I felt more secure.
I wouldn't keep lipstick in my purse because my wife goes through it when she needs something of mine.
Any other questions?
Simone
Still looking to colonise space? I wonder if it is more likely people will be able to live permanently on big space station habitats orbiting earth or on the moon?
Quote from: NickSister on February 19, 2008, 08:05:05 PM
Still looking to colonise space? I wonder if it is more likely people will be able to live permanently on big space station habitats orbiting earth or on the moon?
Both are in the works.
I only hope I will get the chance to get up there.
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Quote from: NickSister on February 19, 2008, 08:05:05 PM
Still looking to colonise space? I wonder if it is more likely people will be able to live permanently on big space station habitats orbiting earth or on the moon?
Don't forget Mars! Someone, maybe Arthur Clarke, wrote a non-fiction book in the late '50s illustrated with full-color plates speculating on such colonies. It would be a chance to begin anew building society as it was for the early American colonists, or as some of you were envisioning in one of these threads. My teenage-self thought exploration would begin in earnest sometime during the '70s. The British Interplanetary Society http://www.bis-spaceflight.com (http://www.bis-spaceflight.com), to which I belonged in those days, has a current book _Project Boreas - A Station for the Martian Geographic North Pole_ which it says: "should be a valuable and unique document for anyone with an interest in Mars/planetary exploration and the challenges of building and operating extraterrestrial bases."
My best friend from elementary through high school, a tomboy, and I had an imaginary Organization of Islands and Lands (OIL), composed of countries too obscure for the UN to take notice of. We held periodic meetings and kept notebooks full of "facts". Our Organization included a Lunar colony.
Onward and upward,
Simone
I think O.I.L. is a good idea. That's amazing that you would do that.
Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
I dunno, how many?
Quote from: Kir on February 20, 2008, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
I dunno, how many?
I was asking out of curiosity. I don't know.
Quote from: Rebis on February 20, 2008, 01:45:10 PM
Quote from: Kir on February 20, 2008, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
I dunno, how many?
I was asking out of curiosity. I don't know.
Only on the androgynes board would people tell a joke without a punch line. Gotta love it !!! ;D ;)
Z
Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Dying of curiosity, I submitted the question to Google.
Yahoo's answer: Six. One to write the procedure, another to test it, three to sign off on it and another to revise it again.
from http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1 (http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1):
None, engineers don't do manual labor, that the tech's job.
from http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914 (http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914):
None, if it is manufactured correctly.
Click and Clack are supposed to have the definitive answer, but it's imbedded in a track on their CD.
Simone
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 20, 2008, 04:26:05 PM
Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Dying of curiosity, I submitted the question to Google.
Yahoo's answer: Six. One to write the procedure, another to test it, three to sign off on it and another to revise it again.
from http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1 (http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1):
None, engineers don't do manual labor, that the tech's job.
from http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914 (http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914):
None, if it is manufactured correctly.
Click and Clack are supposed to have the definitive answer, but it's imbedded in a track on their CD.
Simone
*bow* Your google-fu is strong. I appreciate you finding the answer to this age old riddle. It was driving me nuts, and I was too lazy to look it up.
you said "google-fu"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I love it! I'm going to use that...
I have known since very early childhood,
I felt like a girl and later on I began having an interest in boys...
so I identify as a straight girl/woman now.
Of this I have no doubts.
However. Of course I am not a normal woman.
I cannot really be the woman I feel that I am,
so I have for this moment, chosen to do hormone therapy only,
and not the sex change operation.
I would choose a totally female body though if I had the chance,
but because I am quite sensitive, it's better for me to stay this
way for now, for I am not sure if I will be able to accept the fact that I am not
a normal woman when I am post op. For now I am staying
in the safest place to be, for me.
xx
Birgit
I hadn't read this one until just now. It was nice to just read through and not have all the labels clogging up an Androgyne discussion. So much of it just rings so true. Like a light switch. Going from black and white to color....
I guess my enlightenment really didn't take off until I found Susan's. The process continues.
We are definitely colorful. The unicorn forest is bright.
Realised when i was on hormones i was just kidding myself that i was TS, yeah i love wearing womens clothes, shopping and my girly nights in with my wife, but i also love playing footy with the kids down the street, beer, gambling and being a husband to my wife in the bedroom department, even if i am normally tarted up at the time lol Just think nowadays there is a very fine line between what is female and male as the sexes seem to be getting closer together.
I refuse to answer this question until somebody explains me with all certainity what is a man and what is a woman.
Until after that, I'll know which ones do I fit better, if any.
I seem to have fallen in the "everybody is a closet androgyne" bandwagon lately.
I think I understand the differences between men and women when we are talking about sex. Gender ID is one I wrestle with. In some ways, I am shelly's opposite, though I still understand the wrestling. Ftms write about going into stealth mode after surgery; I've been in stealth mode all my life. I have always been sure that I am not a boy/man and fearful that others will find me out. I hate Halloween and never went out for dramatics and maybe it is because I feel that I am masquerading everyday. I was also afraid to have a son, because I wouldn't know how to bring him up to be a man (Indeed, I understand my first wife warned him he might grow up to be like me if he didn't toe her line).
At the same time, I have never felt a great need to wear women's clothing outside the home or when I am not alone. I get no sexual high from it. Nor do I tolerate the restricted choice of color and style in men's clothing, so I do some mixing. I occasionally share a beer with my wife, but hate gambling. I don't play sports, though I enjoy hiking, kayaking, and bicycling. I enjoy the foreplay with my wife more than the actual penetration (with my ADD, I always run the risk of being distracted). I do like hugs.
When I most miss looking like a woman are times like yesterday when I had a delightful lunch with my wife and six women from our synagogue. I feel this is the only place where I can say that and hope someone can relate to what I say. The unicorn forest is not only bright, but friendly.
S
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 15, 2010, 02:48:56 PM
I refuse to answer this question until somebody explains me with all certainity what is a man and what is a woman.
Until after that, I'll know which ones do I fit better, if any.
I seem to have fallen in the "everybody is a closet androgyne" bandwagon lately.
Well, logically there is only one man and one woman. Everyone else is somewhere in between. You would have to talk to those two to find out the true meaning. It's kind of like asking an Androgyne what the exact definition is.
I just assume that the ranges of binaries overlap the ranges of Androgynes. How much overlap is subjective to the person in that overlap. That's a tough place to be in.
I thought there was someone new on the bandwagon! What section did you happen to fall in? :D
Quote from: ativan on December 15, 2010, 11:51:29 PM
Well, logically there is only one man and one woman. Everyone else is somewhere in between. You would have to talk to those two to find out the true meaning. It's kind of like asking an Androgyne what the exact definition is.
I just assume that the ranges of binaries overlap the ranges of Androgynes. How much overlap is subjective to the person in that overlap. That's a tough place to be in.
I thought there was someone new on the bandwagon! What section did you happen to fall in? :D
logically?
logically anything with a penis should be a man, and we know this isn't true.
If you were meaning statistically, then this too presents a problem: This one "100% man" would be so far off from normal experience as to be completely alien to around 90% of everybody else (bell curve?)
The same thing happens with people with a really high intelligence. They tend to be weirdos.
Also, I have a certain idea of what's the behavioral differences, and for some reason, I have a small idea of what the mental processes are like, because of hormones, unfortunately this doesn't prove with any degree of certainty that what I know is correct for any given male or female, furthermore, the biological processes do not answer the question of what is a man.
Finally, I'm located in the last car, I choose the window, because the other androgynes in here are very distracting with their colorfulness.
PS, All I know is that I want to be like a gentlelady, which is like a proper lady with all the chivalry of a gentleman.
I don't know whether to post this here or in the thread asking for male/female percentages. Like ZZ, I am looking for definitions. The evidence of being female doesn't square with the many of the females most important in my life.
I've been married twice, and neither wife used any makeup except on very special occasions (formal portraits, their own marriages). Both shun high heels. My mother wore only lipstick always, and wore high heels even when hiking to the bottom of a canyon in Yellowstone National Park. My wife does shave, but I have very little body hair anywhere except for on the head and between the legs. My wife is no help with my long hair, because hers has always been short. I do have a daughter who thought briefly of becoming a cosmetician, before she started teaching high school Spanish. Another daughter with aspirations for a career in the theater does have enough of that stuff to open her own store.
My family has been anti-war, anti-hunting, and anti-gun for four or five generations, at least, but I suppose that is not uncommon among Jews. My wife was the sports editor of her college newspaper and takes sports more seriously than I. She also feels she could do a better job than most sports commentators. My wife invariably asks me what she should wear (especially when the setting will not allow her to wear pants), and I admit to being pretty fashion illiterate. She is addicted to cop shows centering on rape and domestic violence, those tries to avoid shows or scenes with graphic violence. She chides me for watching "sappy" love stories. She firmly self-identifies as female in gender, but can't grasp why I, or anyone other male-bodied person, would want to be female. My wife said she wanted me to bear our child, and I would have liked to, but didn't have a clue how to proceed. I do miss having that experience.
We seem to agree that the tests we have taken do not accurately measure gender, but how do we know what is male and what is female? How do I trust my conviction that I am female (completely or partially), when I pick and choose from among the stereotypes?
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on December 16, 2010, 07:05:34 PMHow do I trust my conviction that I am female (completely or partially), when I pick and choose from among the stereotypes?
Everyone experiences this differently. So I think basing a conviction on stereotypes is unwise. Probably genderidentity is something of the soul, not behavior or looks.
I am stereotype female in almost every way (except for the fact that I am non op)...I know a lot of post op TS, that are very masculine and tell me I am a man because I haven't had surgery. ;D
(but I don't care, I know who and what I am)
I think my "enlightenment" was early, but I lost sight and had to find it again. I recall when I was very young telling my babysitter I was "half boy". She said she thought that too when she was young, but as she got older realized that was impossible and assured me I was 100% female.
I dislike segregating things into male and female interests/activities/dispositions, and I generally try not to say I am an androgyne because of my any of these things. Growing up there was always a peculiar feeling present when I would put on a dress or spend time with a group of females. I was always uncomfortable. Something wasn't right, and I felt like an imposter posing as a female, worse I felt like everyone could see it and everyone knew.
I noticed I related a lot better with males. However, the older I got the more I realized I couldn't fully relate with them either. I had had extended thoughts for a period of time about taking testosterone, binding my boobs and in general living as a guy, but the thought of growing facial and body hair disgusted me as well as some of the other general expectations of a man. I wasn't a guy.
Somehow I came full circle and realized neither side suits me. As much as I tried I couldn't suppress either half of myself. The harder I tried to be a man the more my inner femme rebelled and vice versa. The best I can explain it the way I feel inside is, well, both and neither. That probably makes no sense. How I'm comfortable and who I am can't really fall into a gender category. I don't like being treated like a lady or a dude or really viewed as either. My body is obviously female (which I both like and dislike), but my mind is something entirely different.
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 16, 2010, 12:47:44 PM
logically?
logically anything with a penis should be a man, and we know this isn't true.
If you were meaning statistically, then this too presents a problem: This one "100% man" would be so far off from normal experience as to be completely alien to around 90% of everybody else (bell curve?)
The same thing happens with people with a really high intelligence. They tend to be weirdos.
Also, I have a certain idea of what's the behavioral differences, and for some reason, I have a small idea of what the mental processes are like, because of hormones, unfortunately this doesn't prove with any degree of certainty that what I know is correct for any given male or female, furthermore, the biological processes do not answer the question of what is a man.
Finally, I'm located in the last car, I choose the window, because the other androgynes in here are very distracting with their colorfulness.
PS, All I know is that I want to be like a gentlelady, which is like a proper lady with all the chivalry of a gentleman.
1. then it wouldn't be logical then.
2. better put than how i attempted to put it.
3. entirely a matter of perspective.
4. I couldn't agree more
5. That was you who took my seat???
Quote from: ativan on December 20, 2010, 10:48:57 PM
1. then it wouldn't be logical then.
precisely what I said, however people have a tendency to say that they're more logical than average. I haven't found a decent proof of how logical somebody is; I only know that it's really hard to have everybody know the same things, and thus, reach the same conclusions. It's so bad that I'm even doubting the possibility of human logic.
Quote2. better put than how i attempted to put it.
thanks :3
Quote3. entirely a matter of perspective.
if you're different than most, you're a weirdo.
Quote5. That was you who took my seat???
No, that was the other dolphin.
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 21, 2010, 05:47:07 PM
precisely what I said, however people have a tendency to say that they're more logical than average. I haven't found a decent proof of how logical somebody is; I only know that it's really hard to have everybody know the same things, and thus, reach the same conclusions. It's so bad that I'm even doubting the possibility of human logic.thanks :3
if you're different than most, you're a weirdo.
No, that was the other dolphin.
:)