I have noticed that there is presently a huge amount of self analyzing going on for those who have doubts, regrets, and/or fears to do with transitioning. There are even those who have said that they have "toyed" with the idea of transitioning and I find that in itself a little odd to say the least. It is interesting that there are many different life situations being discussed that have contributed to those doubts, regrets and fears, and it seems that this is being done in order to rationalize reasons not to transition.
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph
I think life is more complicated then your simple statement. What was go for your situation may not apply to other TSs.
I can understand the fear many people have in transitioning. I know within my mind the thought of transitioning and doing something different is very applealling to me even though I still identify myself as a CD and transgendered.
Alice
I can see both sides of this one. On one hand, the thought of living the rest of my life as a woman is definitely appealing, and the thought of living as a man unbearable. But on the other, there is just so much that seems "final". Maybe it is just the people who have said "there's no turning back" which might not be a true statement after all, as has been discussed. :)
I hate my given first name, but the thought of changing it seems like such a big step. I very much desire the feminizing effects of estrogen, but taking hormones seems like such a big step. I desperately wanted to get rid of all my facial hair, but on my way into the reclining seat at the laser clinic I admit that I thought "do I really want to do this". Well I can take comfort in knowing that of those, the one that I've actually done has left me satisfied with the results. But there's definitely a pressure to question it all, an "are you sure" about the whole process. Because it is a major life event, and those are all big steps. And the one ultimate last step that so many of us take is irreversible.
Lately I've gotten tired of questioning "am I really" all the time. I know what I'm not so this is a chance to explore the other. It's why we have the RLT - to let that do its job is my new outlook and not second guess it beforehand. :)
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on March 14, 2006, 08:59:59 PM
I hate my given first name, but the thought of changing it seems like such a big step.
This isn't even a 1000th on an inch toward a step.
Until a date to accomplish something is set and then done, its only a fantasy.
Quote from: Alice on March 14, 2006, 08:39:26 PM
I think life is more complicated then your simple statement. What was go for your situation may not apply to other TSs.
I can understand the fear many people have in transitioning. I know within my mind the thought of transitioning and doing something different is very applealling to me even though I still identify myself as a CD and transgendered.
Alice
Life is very complicated in every sense of the word, and I purposely didn't mention my situation or anyone else's as I believe "it" or anyone else's situation would not prevent transition. There is no doubt that fear of the unknown is normal and for some it can be paralyzing, but again it would not stop a transsexual from transitioning. Fears can be managed through information and knowledge.
To transition because one finds it appealing is, to be polite, idiotic. It is not a fashion statement
Also the current terminology refers to Transgendered as an umbrella term for the trans community (CD, TV, TS, IS etc...)
Steph
Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on March 14, 2006, 08:19:44 PM
I have noticed that there is presently a huge amount of self analyzing going on for those who have doubts, regrets, and/or fears to do with transitioning. There are even those who have said that they have "toyed" with the idea of transitioning and I find that in itself a little odd to say the least. It is interesting that there are many different life situations being discussed that have contributed to those doubts, regrets and fears, and it seems that this is being done in order to rationalize reasons not to transition.
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph
Steph,
I have to agree with you.
Yes, I am one of those who is dealing with a whole host of worries and doubts. And everyone here has been very kind, supportive and tollerant of these worries.
However, the bottom line is simple. A transexual must transform the exterior to match the interior. If this does not happen, the incongruity between body and soul will rip a person apart.
Chaunte
Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on March 14, 2006, 09:08:15 PM
Life is very complicated in every sense of the word, and I purposely didn't mention my situation or anyone else's as I believe "it" or anyone else's situation would not prevent transition. There is no doubt that fear of the unknown is normal and for some it can be paralyzing, but again it would not stop a transsexual from transitioning. Fears can be managed through information and knowledge.
To transition because one finds it appealing is, to be polite, idiotic. It is not a fashion statement
Also the current terminology refers to Transgendered as an umbrella term for the trans community (CD, TV, TS, IS etc...)
Steph
Hmm, on reflection maybe I should of said aspect of transitioning are applealing. Still not that good I know. As I have said before in other places I know I will never transition as I have never felt like a lady inside. In fact this weeks sum it up for me as sometimes I feel good to be a guy and then sometimes I wish I was a girl. As I said before life is complicated.
Alice
Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on March 14, 2006, 08:19:44 PM
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
If a person has no intentions of surgery but is content to present outwardly as a woman then then (my opinion) ts does not apply. I do make two exceptions to that, One is for those who for medical reasons
cannot have surgery. The other is for the men and again its for medical reasons. As most know their bottom surgery is horribly expensive and the results are less than astetically pleasing or functioning.
I cannot accept finances as a reason either. Sell the toys, go cheap, get a second job even if its part time. You do what it takes. I sold everything of value I had, no job, no income, for one reason. If I didn't have my surgery I had no need of anything. I was back 2 months, and 2 weeks away from living on the street pushing a shopping cart full of pop cans when I found this job.
Don't ever tell me you can't. When you say that what I think you are really saying to me is you won't!
Leigh
Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on March 14, 2006, 08:19:44 PM
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss anyone who questions transitioning as not really being a transsexual.
The catch is we're not being offered the chance to be ordinary genetic women who blend seamlessly into the population. Offer me THAT opportunity, and we have no hesitation, no debate, no questioning.
But no, what I'm offered is a chance at a compromised life as a semi-female created through medical intervention. I might face persecution, beatings, constant ridicule, etc. Would a lifetime of gender dysphoria be worse than that? I honestly don't know. But because the risks are so high, I need to be damn sure I'm going into this as knowingly as possible.
I've often said that I have no doubts about whether I want to be a woman or not. What I doubt is if I would BE a woman or not (as far as society is concerned).
Kate
Quote from: Kate on March 14, 2006, 10:12:09 PM
What I doubt is if I would BE a woman or not (as far as society is concerned).
I think Leigh's point is that society doesn't even factor into this. Transition is for personal reasons only. Who cares what society thinks. As far as I'm concerned, if they don't accept it, then they aren't worth caring about in the first place.
Melissa
Quote from: Kate on March 14, 2006, 10:12:09 PM
I don't think it's fair to dismiss anyone who questions transitioning as not really being a transsexual.
The catch is we're not being offered the chance to be ordinary genetic women who blend seamlessly into the population. Offer me THAT opportunity, and we have no hesitation, no debate, no questioning.
You are offered the same chances as anyone else if you are a transsexual you will transition. It would seem that you want transition handed to you on a plate. That's not going to happen you are going to have to take risks and make sacrifices, some of those sacrifices are going to hurt like h*ll but no matter what it will be worth it.
QuoteBut no, what I'm offered is a chance at a compromised life as a semi-female created through medical intervention. I might face persecution, beatings, constant ridicule, etc. Would a lifetime of gender dysphoria be worse than that? I honestly don't know. But because the risks are so high, I need to be damn sure I'm going into this as knowingly as possible.
Who has offered you the chance of a compromised life as a semi-female... It is you who makes your life and no one else, sure you may face persecution etc... but you could also be hit by a bus tomorrow, it's you who lives your life and no one else.
QuoteI've often said that I have no doubts about whether I want to be a woman or not. What I doubt is if I would BE a woman or not (as far as society is concerned).
It's not a question of wanting to be a woman, either you are or you aren't, and if you are then you will succeed or die trying. You should not be concerned with society and what they think otherwise you will be it's prisoner condemned with a life sentence of regrets.
QuoteWould a lifetime of gender dysphoria be worse than that?
- Oh yes, yes, yes
Steph
Quote from: Melissa on March 14, 2006, 10:38:39 PM
I think Leigh's point is that society doesn't even factor into this. Transition is for personal reasons only. Who cares what society thinks. As far as I'm concerned, if they don't accept it, then they aren't worth caring about in the first place.
I understand, and it's certainly a noble sentiment, but I don't think I could live up to it in the worst case scenario.
Imagine if I transitioned, and being 6'2" makes it impossible for me to pass - ever. My days are then spent being constantly perceived as a transsexual, as a man in a dress. Everyone calls me sir, treats me as an eccentric man at best, a pervert enjoying an erotic kick at worst.
What have I gained then? I'm not living the female life I wanted. No one is validating me as being a female. Sure, I might look more feminine, and be happier about my appearance - but only when home alone. In that case, I'm no better off then simply crossdressing in secret. My "femaleness" would be entirely self-contained, a private delusion of my own making.
Can my happiness, my sense of "being female" really exist without that external validation? I honestly don't know. I get the philosophical arguments... but can they survive reality?
Quote from: Leigh on March 14, 2006, 09:04:38 PMThis isn't even a 1000th on an inch toward a step.
I should have been clearer. The thought of changing it to a
female name seems like a big step. It's not quick, it's not cheap, and it means I have to inform my boss, my bank, my web host. I'd say in this context it is a big step. ;)
Umm, okay so I haven't set a date. I still haven't had a chance to talk to my therapist about the best sequence to do all this stuff in. To call it a fantasy implies that I'm deluding myself that it will ever get done... and this just because I don't have a date set? ???
Changing a name is a simple legal procedure.
Compared to the rest of transition, it is virtually nothing.
I wonder Steph, if you had lost your job, spouse, home, and was living on the street (first of all you would not be posting in here because you would have no computer, internet service, or electricity, desk, or money for transition,) If you would not be singing a different tune. You make it sound soooo easy and without heavy major consequences. You are an exception. An overwhelming exception to put it mildly. I hope young transsexuals reading your posts don't go on thinking your life is going to be the norm. It isn't I wished it was and I have to admit I'm envious of you. If I had the same securities you have I would be well into transition by now possible doing the right thing or making a mistake.
For those of us that face losing everything, just how do you expect us to be happy about it, knowing the outcome. Yes, some may pass, some may not. With no job, no future, looking and knowing you have to worry about being outed or be outed all the time, just how do you expect us to NOT hesitate. Put yourself in our shoes. Pretend you do not have all of your security that you do now. Pretend you have responsibilities other then your own self that must be met financially and figure out how you are going to do that without any income. Go on some job interviews and let them know what you are and see how many calls you get back. You may get some because you have transitioned. Try doing that before you transition seeking a safe place to transition and see how many call back. Just how do you expect to do it without money?
I fully understand what you are saying. To hell with the fears, society, and everything else. If you are TS you will Transition. But just how far you transition is up to each and everyone of us isnt it? According to some on this forum unless you have GRS/SRS you are not really a TS. Oh really? Prove it. In fact, prove you are TS. I can say just because you have an inny and not an outie doesn't mean you are TS. There are men that have had srs. Are they transexuals? Is the term transsexual only applied to genitalia that nobody can see? They live each day as men but down below they have the genitalia of the opposite sex. To me, Transsexual is more complicated. It is assuming the other gender in full. Looking, talking and living life as a normal natal female/male. It is the full package, not just sexual idenity. It is gender identity.
Since Transsexulism is a SELF DIAGNOSED issue, wouldn't it be prudent to seek advice, help, ideas, parallel lives, and more understanding to make sure you are correct? To know you are right and prove you are right before starting transition is an absolute must. Just because you THINK you are right, doesnt mean you are. If you are wrong or have doubts then the results are disasterous to say the least. There are way to many that have transitioned and regretted it. There are way to many that want to go back, live like hermits, cannot handle it, would do anything to undo a major mistake, or commit suicide. So knowing all that, how else to you expect people that are sure they are Transsexual to know it for fact? Perhaps you can enllighten us how to prove it? We may feel, know, and are pretty certain, but just how do you really know without a shred of doubt that transition would be better?
QuoteIt's not a question of wanting to be a woman, either you are or you aren't, and if you are then you will succeed or die trying.
With all due respect Steph as much as you and I see eye to eye on most things, I think in this case your statement is true for what used to be called "Type VI" transsexuals but does not hold as true for those less afflicted. For those of us who were Type VI, the less serious degrees of affliction can be hard to understand.
Quote from: Northern Jane on March 15, 2006, 08:04:07 AM
With all due respect Steph as much as you and I see eye to eye on most things, I think in this case your statement is true for what used to be called "Type VI" transsexuals but does not hold as true for those less afflicted. For those of us who were Type VI, the less serious degrees of affliction can be hard to understand.
LESS afflicted? In my experience, the "transition or die" transsexuals are merely more dependent upon physicality as defining who they are. These are usually the ones who try to cut off their "disgusting" body parts and so on. More than anything, they just cannot stand being male, and so we get the "transition or die" mandate.
But not every transsexual feels that way. For some of us, being male is only troublesome in that it's a constant reminder that we're not female. I don't particularly LIKE having a penis for example, and it does embarass me when aroused, but I don't feel an irrational compulsion to cut it off. My compulsion, if anything, is to be FEMALE... and therefore the need to rid myself of maleness is an afterthought, a means to an end - but it's not what drives me.
I can certainly understand why those who hate their maleness feel desperate, and would feel compelled to transition at all costs since getting rid of their maleness is the primary goal. There is no alternative in that case other than transitioning with SRS.
But the need to be female is an equally valid motivation, and allows for a bit more flexibility in finding a solution appropriate to the individual. "Transitioning" becomes a more open-ended and involving process, trying to find a way to function as a female as well as BEING one. If I can't function as a woman, if I'm not accepted as one, if I'm the only person in the world who considers myself a female... then what has transitioning accomplished? I'm be right back where I started. Hence the questioning and debate.
I somewhat fit into your description Stephanie.
It was transition or kill myself. It got to the point I could not continue with the internal pressures. I was on the virge of committing suicide when I finally accepted and transitioned.
No, it wasn't easy, hasn't been easy and I did lose several of my best customers. But, others stayed with me and have been supportive.
I'm alive and living as I always should have and am happier for it. Not richer, not more friends, but "happier".
Sarah
ps. Maybe it is just me this week being overly sensitive (had a tense session with my shrink last Thursday), but I feel like there have been attacks on some of the messages lately. Its probably me but just my feelings right now.
Quote from: LoriI wonder Steph, if you had lost your job, spouse, home, and was living on the street (first of all you would not be posting in here because you would have no computer, internet service, or electricity, desk, or money for transition,) If you would not be singing a different tune. You make it sound soooo easy and without heavy major consequences. You are an exception. An overwhelming exception to put it mildly. I hope young transsexuals reading your posts don't go on thinking your life is going to be the norm. It isn't I wished it was and I have to admit I'm envious of you. If I had the same securities you have I would be well into transition by now possible doing the right thing or making a mistake.
It would seem that you are under the assumption that I was/am blessed with being able to transition in a secure safe environment. That it was sooooooo easy. I have no idea where you got that idea. And I would politely point out that you are in no position to comment on my life. I had to risk everything. I don't wine and cry the blues, I just do it. The only person who is going to look after you in this world and that you can count on is "You". When I came out at work I had no idea how they would react, sure they have rules and policies in place but you can't make people like you or work with you, or even go along with you. There are colleagues who turn their back on me and others who leave the room. But you know something, to hell with them, those who stand by you are the ones who count. There have been and still are many parents who have called me at work, and who have called the school board complaining that there is a pervert working with school children and that I should be fired, that they are going to the school trustees to ensure it happens, everyday I worry that "that" phone call will come. I did my research before hand and I was quite willing to give up my job, and before I came out I had alternate employment set up should things have not turned out as expected, and by the way I'm still looking for alternate employment. I'm not afraid to work in any environment to ensure my livelihood.
Yes I had an easy time... I almost lost my wife. It came very close but after many a tear, argument, rants and raves, we are making it through. We are hanging tough but we still talk about the possibility that we will part. I've
Lost, I repeat
Lost the most dearest person in the whole wide world, someone who is so important to me, someone who was closer that anyone else could even think of being, and someone who was my heart and soul... My only daughter, and it breaks my heart to think that I may never see her again. I've lost two brothers, friends, and most of the veterans I served with and those who are still serving. Yes I had an easy time...
Money wise... Yes I'm having an easy time... I'm loaded with money, yeah right. Transition has cost our life savings and at 54 I have no time to recoup any of it based on the pittance I get from my present job, but as I said I have plans.
Quote from: LoriFor those of us that face losing everything, just how do you expect us to be happy about it, knowing the outcome. Yes, some may pass, some may not. With no job, no future, looking and knowing you have to worry about being outed or be outed all the time, just how do you expect us to NOT hesitate. Put yourself in our shoes. Pretend you do not have all of your security that you do now. Pretend you have responsibilities other then your own self that must be met financially and figure out how you are going to do that without any income. Go on some job interviews and let them know what you are and see how many calls you get back. You may get some because you have transitioned. Try doing that before you transition seeking a safe place to transition and see how many call back. Just how do you expect to do it without money?
You must really think that I live in a vacuum. I don't need to pretend, and I certainly don't need to put on your shoes, but to put it simply "Been there, done that, got the Tee Shirt". You ask "How do I expect you to be happy about it, knowing the outcome", wow I didn't know that crystal balls were that accurate, how can you know the outcome? Your life is what you make it The only thing in this life that is for certain is your pending death, and sooner or later it will happen, that is guaranteed and I would say that it was the only thing that you have no control over.
Quote from: But just how far you transition is up to each and everyone of us isnt it? According to some on this forum unless you have GRS/SRS you are not really a TS. Oh really? Prove it. In fact, prove you are TS. I can say just because you have an inny and not an outie doesn't mean you are TS. There are men that have had srs. Are they transexuals? Is the term transsexual only applied to genitalia that nobody can see? They live each day as men but down below they have the genitalia of the opposite sex. To me, Transsexual is more complicated. It is assuming the other gender in full. Looking, talking and living life as a normal natal female/male. It is the full package, not just sexual idenity. It is gender identity.
Why do I have to prove anything I am here living and breathing and to me that's proof enough. It's all or nothing, if your are a woman then you have no choice but to live as one, full time not part time or when the mood fits, you are not assuming the other gender you are the other gender. And we all know that GID has nothing to do with sexual identity. Leigh outlined the exceptions quite well, and I would agree with her that FtM Transsexuals are males in every way.
This afternoon I will be speaking with a group of Medical Residents who have just finished their medical training and who are about to start their psychiatry specialty. I didn't have to but I think that I/We are too important to let an opportunity like this pass me by. There are not too many people out there who are willing to help, so it's up to us to make those sacrifices and take the risks in the hope that it will make it easier for me and others.
Life is nothing but a bowl of cherries, sh#t if a young person came up and asked for advice on transition the first thing I would say is are you out of your feakin mind, do you realise the hell that you are getting into, but once the cards are on the table that person must transition or suffer the consequences.
Lori I'll be a little blunt and if it offends then I apologize. You seem to want guarantees that you are a transsexual however it is only you who knows this and only you who can guarantee it. It would also seem that before start that you want guarantees that transition will be easy and painless, all comfy and sugar coated, with people telling you "You go Girl". It ain't goin to happen babe. It's your life you make it happen, it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.
Steph
Quoteif you had lost your job, spouse, home, and was living on the street
Pretty close to the truth! In the spring of 1974 I left home with one suitcase and a bank draft to cover SRS (plus a couple of months rent on apartment) - nothing more - that's all I had to show for 24 years of life. I had to leave my hometown and all my friends and family behind - nothing, nada, zip! I sacrificed everything and everyone in my life to transition - but the GID was gone and I built a heck of a nice life by working my backside off. Nothing was "handed to me" and nobody cut me any slack.
O.k. so what would be a valid excuse, reason, decision NOT to transition when somebody is in their 30's?
Somebody here didnt sh*t and sat on the pot until mid life so why bring up people seeking other answers when others, even on this forum waited until their 50's and obviously found reasons not to do it until then? Some wait until their 60's. Some take it to the grave.
It is easy to sit there and say to others that are afraid and prey on those fears and bring out to light that if they were real transsexuals they would transition and stop whining about it. Especially when they have found a way to do it and kept their jobs and spouses. Swing away if it makes you feel any better.
I'll tell you my reasons for not transitioning earlier Lori, in the 70's there wasn't that much information around about Transsexualism. At least none that I could find, I didn't know how to find it.
I had already made the mistake of asking the high school counselor, they thought I was crazy, I tried my family doctor, he told me I was crazy. After that I quit trying to ask for help. It wasn't until my late 30's that I ever ran into another TS girl, she answered all kinds of questions about myself to me. I made the personal decision not to transition at that point, I wanted to, I might even wish I had. But, I had young children and decided I would wait until after they were grown and into college at the minimum.
Yes, I was silly and married to please my parents (I am not saying I didn't have feelings for my spouse), but a commitment is a commitment. I kept it until the kids were grown, out of college and on their own.
I tried to fight it for my spouse, but it was impossible. So, I lost her love, her companionship, my kids support. My family always knew so they didn't support me. Lost what few friends I had, except one. Lost half or more of my business clients.
Yes, transioning can include loss. You have to make up you own mind if that is acceptable to you. I didn't want to lose any of those things, but it was a matter of Life or Death. I am Not sorry I transitioned, it was the best decision I have ever made, I only wish I had the courage to do it earlier in life.
I'm not saying you have to transition. Each of us makes that decision on their own. But don't ever think that Anyone transitions without sacrifice.
Sarah L.
The problem with this mess we find ourselves in is that that "choice" to transition isn't. If you are transsexual you have no choice. Honest, it is simple as that. However, it should be noted that transition means different things to each of us and does NOT necessarily mean surgery nor does it necessarily mean hormones, etc.
Do you know how long I mulled over what could happen? What I could loose, etc. ad nauseam. ? I'll give you a hint; I was single the next day and starting to transition in earnest.
For reference I do not see any reason to fear this. Yes, you could loose everything... things which can be reacquired, any friends lost weren't. It is very possible I will die before, during or after this all. So what? Good bloody riddance; death is better than what was. Either I am missing something (or somethings!) or my perspective is seriously skewed. :-\
Quote from: Lori on March 15, 2006, 11:46:40 AM
O.k. so what would be a valid excuse, reason, decision NOT to transition when somebody is in their 30's?
To be honest Lori I can't think of a valid reason not to transition, if you are a woman then be that woman.
QuoteSomebody here didn't sh*t and sat on the pot until mid life so why bring up people seeking other answers when others, even on this forum waited until their 50's and obviously found reasons not to do it until then? Some wait until their 60's. Some take it to the grave.
Very valid points Lori. There is nothing wrong with waiting. Planning takes time, you would need to put together a support team, medical professionals, set up a time line, locate resources, etc, etc... No one expects anyone else to simply drop everything the next day and head off merrily into disaster. Remember also there was no internet back then, no online information or support groups, you were on your own, where the heck could you turn. The closest manual was pictures of ->-bleeped-<-s in skin books, chicks with d#*ks etc... hardly a wealth of info. We all have reasons for the time in our lives we transitioned, but transition did take place. One of the delays for my transition was for medical reasons. Simply put my doctor insisted that I correct the problem before she would even consider HRT. Another delay to my own transition was due to serving overseas. Once back in Canada I resigned and it started. Others are simply not diagnosed or realise that they are transsexual until late in life.
QuoteIt is easy to sit there and say to others that are afraid and prey on those fears and bring out to light that if they were real transsexuals they would transition and stop whining about it. Especially when they have found a way to do it and kept their jobs and spouses. Swing away if it makes you feel any better.
Now you are just feeling sorry for yourself. No one here is preying on you or your situation, members are stating their points of view, that is hardly preying on anyone. So I would say to you, no challenge you that since others here have found a way to transition, keep their job and spouses, why can't you?
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on March 14, 2006, 08:59:59 PM
I hate my given first name, but the thought of changing it seems like such a big step. I very much desire the feminizing effects of estrogen, but taking hormones seems like such a big step...
Given name? My mom chose my name to piss off her hated in-laws -- one of the reasons I don't feel like revealing it here. I chose Hazumu (a Japanese cartoon character) as an interim until I could discover my female name (Karen, if you're curious... I'm sticking with 'Haz' on this board 'cause everyone's used to it and it's kinda' cool to have a nickname (my first ever!))
Getting used to thinking in "Karen" is tough, but I expected it would be. I was so thoroughly in denial that I never considered myself (or would permit myself to consider) as other than male, 'he', 'him'. Now I have to get used to thinking of myself as a different name and different pronouns. It will take time. (One thing I did to move in that direction was add my new name as an authorized user of one of my credit cards -- now I get stuff (and bills!) addressed to Karen. Gives me a warm glow to see that on the package and realize it's ME!)
Doing HRT is a very good way to sort out if you really are transsexual or not, and has been written about extensively on this board. If you panic when the changes start to happen (and I mean REALLY panic,) then either you're not ready to transition, or aren't really a transsexual.
But make sure to look inside you. Ignore the part about what-will-others-think-about-me, and look at how "I" really feel. If you get a sort of warm feeling about your body being feminized by the HRT, if it feels 'right' and 'good', then you're probably on the right track.
But you're still pretty young, I see, and it's hard at that age to recognize those feelings of the rightness and goodness of something on so little experience. And what others may think of you is still hugely-important -seeming. (How do I know? I was once 24. --once...) That's why you have to quiet your inner what-will-they-think-of-me? noise. I'll bet you were a bully-magnet in high school. Those types will still target you during and after transition, but dammit!, now at least you'll know the reason rather than all those years of wondering, "Why me???"
You've already posted in Terri Anne's U-Turn topic, so you're considering many rational pros and cons of transitioning. But don't let your fear stop you from transitioning, if you find that that's what you must do.
Karen "Haz"
[edit]Thanks, Kimberly for pointing out my veiled profanity. It's all gone now. [/edit]
Quote from: Hazumu on March 18, 2006, 12:15:07 PMMy mom chose my name to piss off her hated in-laws -- one of the reasons I don't feel like revealing it here.
Yikes! :o I don't blame you for not wanting to reveal it, even aside from familial reasons. :-\ I've managed to distance myself from mine in day to day life, even going by my middle name at work. It can be a great thing not having that reminder all the time.
QuoteGetting used to thinking in "Karen" is tough, but I expected it would be. ... (One thing I did to move in that direction was add my new name as an authorized user of one of my credit cards -- now I get stuff (and bills!) addressed to Karen. Gives me a warm glow to see that on the package and realize it's ME!)
I think any new name will take getting used to - doubly so when it is a gender we wouldn't let ourselves be before. Not having grown up with it, there isn't a strong connection. Hey that's really neat about the card. One of those little things that's nice to have done, and it's good to have that validation. I think before you know it your new name will become second nature. :)
QuoteDoing HRT is a very good way to sort out if you really are transsexual or not, and has been written about extensively on this board.
Yes, the post about some therapists using it as a diagnostic tool. That post, I think is right on - it got me thinking, okay... I've gotten approval to start, arranged a time to see someone who can write the prescriptions, so the next step is to see how it affects me. Will it give me the sense of peace that others feel. Will it lift the fog my mind is always in. Will the physical effects be as great as I anticipate. It's one thing to think about something all the time, and quite another to actually experience it, LOL. I'm doing my best now to hold off on obsessing "am I really" all the time until taking this step.
QuoteIgnore the part about what-will-others-think-about-me, and look at how "I" really feel.
I admit, it's difficult to do. It's difficult to go out in public and happen to catch my reflection and not wonder, am I obvious.
QuoteAnd what others may think of you is still hugely-important -seeming. (How do I know? I was once 24. --once...) That's why you have to quiet your inner what-will-they-think-of-me? noise. I'll bet you were a bully-magnet in high school.
Yeah it does seem to be so. :D
HS would have been a nightmare but thank goodness I was spared from that.
QuoteYou've already posted in Terri Anne's U-Turn topic, so you're considering many rational pros and cons of transitioning. But don't let your fear stop you from transitioning, if you find that that's what you must do.
Good advice; thank you. :)
I'm with Steph on this. If you're a transsexual, you'll transition because you have to. If you don't have to or can manage with less than a transition, do so. This can become a labeling exercise for some people who will say if you don't transition or die trying, you ain't a transsexual. I'm not sure that's entirely true. I think some people are weakly transsexual but don't have the do-or-die syndrome. Call yourself transgendered then. It's not like transsexuality is an exclusive club or a badge of honor. Real handicaps and dangers come with the title. What seems to be at issue is becoming female, or living as a female. I don't believe you can do these things without full transition and if you cite the risks of transition as your reason for not doing so, your desire to be female isn't that strong or you're simply putting off the inevitable collision with fate most of us end up facing sooner or later. You may also make everyone around you miserable in the mean time. I don't think it's possible to be fully female with a penis regardless of your abilities of denial but I do think it possible to be a female who is 6'2" and looks quite masculine because I've seen plenty of women do it. I am blessed in what I've been able to do and that I am small but even if I was much larger, I would still have had only two choices: transition or die. I could not continue as I was. Excuses are just that, excuses, and if you have enough of them, you probably shouldn't think too hard about transition.
Dawn
Quote from: DawnL on March 18, 2006, 10:41:59 PMI think some people are weakly transsexual but don't have the do-or-die syndrome. Call yourself transgendered then.
Nah, I'm gonna keep calling myself transsexual regardless. "True" transsexual even.
It's amusing though, you've helped me realize something...
I'm a bit of a control freak. Not in terms of controlling other people, but in terms of myself. I won't drink or do drugs for example, because I don't like being controlled by an external influence.
Which is why this transsexuality thing is making me CRAZY. Here's this alien force, driving me to do something as insane as changing my sex... and try as I have, I just cannot find a way to stop it. Heck, the more I try, the worse it gets! The more I try to "solve" it, the more inertia it seems to gather.
I've often said I'd sooner kill myself before I let the angst of "transition or die" drive me to suicide. Think about that one for awhile. I do understand your point, I really do. I just refuse (probably a futile gesture) to give in to it.
But the idea of doing something so... so... crazy... not as a choice, not by accepting responsibility for it, but because I "had to or die" is just so incredibly antithetical to me. It's just so "the devil made me do it" sounding.
Which leaves me stuck. I can't responsibly *choose* to do something so potentially havoc-wreaking, and I refuse to just "let go" and let it happen without my consent, as it were.
Hmmm. Interesting. What a moral mess.
Interesting choice of words. Do you think I or any other transitioning or transitioned TS had/has less willpower than you? I repeat--and Leigh has said this far more forcefully than I--if you can avoid transition, do so. The costs are very great no matter how smoothly your transition. You will remain an oddity afterwards to many people and if you go stealth, you will live with the fear of discovery.
I'm not sure why you describe this as a moral mess. If you don't accept this as a medical condition then you see it as a mental disorder? Are mental disorders less valid as medical conditions than say, brain tumors? I realize that it how society views this but will you consider yourself a failure if you are compelled to transition? I hope not. I don't see any moral issues here.
I put off my transition a very long time. I thought I could deny it, suppress it, take it to my grave. I was also miserable beyond any description. You may be able to decide and define your future and I wish you nothing but the best of luck in doing so.
Dawn
Quote from: DawnL on March 19, 2006, 08:25:06 AM
I'm not sure why you describe this as a moral mess. If you don't accept this as a medical condition then you see it as a mental disorder? Are mental disorders less valid as medical conditions than say, brain tumors? I realize that it how society views this but will you consider yourself a failure if you are compelled to transition? I hope not. I don't see any moral issues here.
Welcome back, Dawn!
Boy, when you used the word 'moral', it set off all kinds of alarms in me. I think you're touching on something that can illuminate how a transsexual
person is seen by various segments of society, and why we must search for the 'but I just can't help it" reason for our transsexuality.
Allow me to groove on this a bit-- ;)
I've found George Lakoff's (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/nationasfamily/nationasfamily) viewing people and their personal morality/politics on a Strict Father/Nurturing Parent axis to be quite helpful in seeing issues from their point of view.
Someone who views family and life with the Nurturing Parent worldview will generally have no problem with the transsexual. Their attitude is pretty much, "It's a free world, if you feel the need to do that and as long as you're not hurting or abusing another with it, then I (and others) have no right to stop you from living your life that way, and I will treat you with the respect deserving another human being." These are the people who don't care
WHAT we are, but care
WHO we are (a BIG difference in my book.) Why we feel the need to transition is just not an issue. It could be because of a medical condition (no choice) or because of strong desire (choice) -- either way, it doesn't matter to a Nurturing Parent person. To interfere in any way in our decision would be morally wrong.
Then there are the Stern Father people. In their morality, you must play out the hand that life has dealt you. To try to discard/draw, or to fold shows lack of discipline, which is morally wrong. If you were born a boy, then
By God you are a boy until the day you die! If you don't show the discipline to accept the role God has dealt you, then you deserve the punishment we are about to mete out. Undisciplined people are sub-human ("
What th'hell ARE you?")
But discipline implies choice, that you could choose to do something morally bad. If there is no choice in the matter, then you are exempted from getting the punishment you deserve. This is why the Strict Father adherents have decreed that transsexualism and homosexuality are choices and not I-just-can't-help-it medical conditions/disorders. In contrast, it's interesting that a sizable group of Strict Father-ers also declared that alcohol-induced judgement imparement was in the I-couldn't-help-it category. Get drunk enough and your bad behavior is exempted from retribution. (Another exemption is the found-my-wife-in-bed-with-another-man exemption.)
The Strict Father-ers have a big stake in whether transsexualism is a choice or an incurable not-a-choice. If it's a choice, they are justified in abusing the TS, because the TS is morally evil, and the moral books MUST be balanced by retribution -- to not mete out retribuiton when one finds evil in the world is a sign of weakness, of lack of discipline, and is morally bad.
The Strict Father-ers KNOW in their hearts that TSs are morally bad, because they feel revulsion when confronted by transsexuality or a transsexual (just being in the same room with one makes some feel physically ill.) They can't stand the thought that TSs could get a physical imparement exemption just like the smart-mouthed Downs Syndrome kid or the snotty epileptic kid they remember when they were growing up -- deserving of retribution but hiding behind an exemption.
If it weren't for such people in the world, I could give a $#!^ about whether my condition is choice or no-choice. Because such people exist, and that their morality allows arbitrary discrimination against me in hiring, in freedom from harassment (or, more precisely, the lack of freedom from harassment) withholding of concern/caring/compassion ("No compassion for YOU!!!") -- generally treating me as less than human -- I desperately want a physical it-can't-be-helped reason for TS to be found so I can get my discrimination/harassment exemption pass.
This is my take on it, and my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree with it, and I'd like to see your take on the issue.
Dawn, thanks for the springboard (the word 'moral') for my rant! ;D
Karen
EDIT: Out, Out! Damned spellos...
Quote from: Kate on March 18, 2006, 11:29:25 PMBut the idea of doing something so... so... crazy... not as a choice, not by accepting responsibility for it, but because I "had to or die" is just so incredibly antithetical to me. It's just so "the devil made me do it" sounding.
I used to have a similar outlook. I was brought up to believe that anything to do with "mental health" was all hooey, by parents who, though thank goodness they're the Nurturing Parent type conversely they also believe that we choose our life path, that everything's a choice but it's all okay regardless. Well, the fact is there's a documented medical correlation with the size of the BSTc, so no matter what *we* are a transsexual still has a brain mismatched to their body. For me, I just deal with the responsibility part by not thinking of it in that context, just doing what seems right to me and seeing if it feels right.
Hope that's of some help. :)
About this thought, "But the idea of doing something so... so... crazy... not as a choice, not by accepting responsibility for it, but because I 'had to or die' is just so incredibly antithetical to me. It's just so 'the devil made me do it' sounding."
Well, there's always a choice! But the devil is in the details, the problem is the set of options that you are faced with. Do I have a choice to transition or not? Sure. Everybody has the choice. The big problem is that the other option can very well be fatal. The other option is a complete and all encompassing Misery. Until death from the stress or by my own hand or final capitulation to the process of transition ends it.
The "Stern Fathers?" Even if they know that the choices are limited to living as a trans person or dying, they feel so convinced of their own moral superiority, so convinced that retribution is deserved, that to them your suicide would be a better choice for you to make than changing and challenging their paradigm, their world view. To them, you should die if you can't fit into the mold that they think you were born into.
But, never the less, it IS a choice. It's just not very MUCH of a choice. To live in misery so deep that death is more desirable or to take advantage of our technology and transition to gain another chance at fulfillment are the options.
I personally feel that this is such a fundamental change that I owe it to myself and the people who rely on me to take it very slowly and to stop when I get to a point where the misery is manageable. Will I reach that point? Who knows? I could get there tomorrow, or maybe never, maybe not even after SRS. But it will still be MY choice to go further or not. And if I get to a point short of SRS and I can live with it I will still call myself transexual. After all, doesn't the clinical definition revolve around why you're dysphoric and not what you do to ease your dysphoria?
helen
I believe that if you are transexual, then you will have this overwhelming desire to be either male or female. Now, the amount of surgery will depend on you. Some can have a little like an orchi. and then some have to do it all, facial, rib taken out etc. The F to M have a really hard time of it as there really isn't any bottom surgery that is any good and it is way too expensive. They are improving this surgery, but it will take a while. I know I had to have GRS or I just wasn't a whole person. I had an orchi. and after a year, it just wasn't enough. I never had facial surgery or anyother surgery. I'm really feeling very good about myself now. I read a few posts back that one girl talked about her being 6'2". I'm 5'10" with broad shoulders and a strong chin. When I came out. I had 16" biceps, it was very hard for me to find clothes that would fit my body. My wife, who is one of my biggest supporters, told me after my surgery that I had to own who I am. If I couldn't then there is no hope for you. I thought about that and now I own my femaleness. My head is high and my shoulders back and I go everywhere. I now own who I am. It takes time and a little courage. If you are a transexual. If you are not then you will always be afraid of something. Like I said before the amount of surgery is up to you.
Some people have said my transition was easy. In no way do they know what I have gone through in my life. One little mishap was a ride in an ambulence to the emergency ward and my stomach pumped and a tube ran down my nose. Then all of those questions, which I don't remember half of them. How about in the mental ward for a few days. Then being watched and people coming up to you saying they love you and you don't even know who they are. Seeing the anguish of your wife in the room with you is so terrifying that you will not do that again, anyway in your right mind. How about losing your son and his wife and never seeing their child, your grandson. They only live 2 miles away. It is not easy, no matter how much money you have or don't have, or what color your skin is. I have had that thrown in my face too.
I was one month away from my 55th birthday when I had my GRS. In the fifties when I knew, you just didn't say you were homosexual, at least in my family. In the 60's I tried to fit in as male, no success there, by the end of the 60's I got married with the first girl I ever had sex with, in fact the only girl. We had two children and I had responcibilties to raise these children. I did that and when it was over I was over and that was when the ride to the hospital occurred. Therapy and such has brought me to my place now. I should at least get an Oscar for my performance as a man in the world of the 20th century. I'm happy now and thoughts of suicide have subsided and I only get them every once in a while now, not everyday like before. I have a self esteem problem, which I'm getting over with. It's hard.
Sheila
Quote from: Lori on March 15, 2006, 07:43:17 AM
I wonder Steph, if you had lost your job, spouse, home, and was living on the street (first of all you would not be posting in here because you would have no computer, internet service, or electricity, desk, or money for transition,) If you would not be singing a different tune. You make it sound soooo easy and without heavy major consequences. You are an exception. An overwhelming exception to put it mildly. I hope young transsexuals reading your posts don't go on thinking your life is going to be the norm. It isn't I wished it was and I have to admit I'm envious of you. If I had the same securities you have I would be well into transition by now possible doing the right thing or making a mistake.
I had a degree in engineering and an MBA. I had a beautiful family and a rocketing marketing career. I was well respected and did not have to worry about money. There was no internet. I knew no one who could help me with my problem. That would all change.
For me, in my situation, I lost everything. For those who have read my book, you know. I did play the "what if" game for a while and went forwards and backwards several times. But once everyone knew about me, all bonds were broken, all bets were off. There was nothing that would stand in my way. I lost ALL of my family at one point and all of my friends. I lost my job and my status. I lost my religion and my faith. I was publicly excommunicated. I was openly humiliated where I worked. I was followed by church members and I was physically abused. I was legally disowned by my parents. I was literally told to leave my home state. I drove to CA with only a few clothes in my leased car and I rent a room. I cut my food budget to 10 dollars a week. Electrolosys always had a priority before food. I'd frequent the bars during happy hour for food and I'd crash a wedding party when I could swing it. There were many dayes every month when I did not eat. I did telephone work talking dirty to men in addition to the demeaning work that I could find. I paid child support when I didn't have a place to live. For a while I was homeless; I lived in my car. I would have done almost anything to get what I needed. Friends of mine in Hollywood who had the same drive were not as resourceful as I. They turned to the only thing that they could do to raise the money needed. Two of them contracted AIDS and they comitted suicide.
For me, at that time, once everyone knew. I could not stop the progress. It wasn't a question of need or carefull decision making. Although I managed to pay my child support (from credit card advances), I would have even abandoned them to make it happen. What Steph is saying is that the power is so strong that you are powereless to stop it. I could not stop the squirrel from moving forward. I was ready within one year. I had my papers. I had the money (also borrowed... from loan sharks).
I had my surgery alone. I did not tell my family. My friends did not know. I only told one; she drove me to the airport and picked me up. Every time I told anyone anything, someone from my church would show up to attempt and stop it. I was not paranoid. It really happened. They followed me everywhere. The phone calls never ended. The letters of mindless bigotry and hate never stopped coming.
I've read accounts here, and I don't mean to offend, where counselors have asked and probed to find this fighting monster attacking to move forward. They don't find it. Consequently, the process is slowed while you take a step back and reexamine your alternatives.
Had my analyst asked a question in a similar vein, I would have steam rolled right over her to find someone else to give me a script or a letter of recommendation.
Okay, I've let out the secret. If you don't feel it, if you don't live that drive, if you can't muster that fight to claw your way up the sheer granite cliff, if you won't sell your very soul to get it, well... I'm not sure what to say. I've met many others in our situation. Those with the drive find their lives. Those that don't, fall by the wayside somewhere in endless group sessions and therapy.
This is as close to the cold hard truth as I will ever post.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on August 13, 2006, 06:52:40 AM
Okay, I've let out the secret. If you don't feel it, if you don't live that drive, if you can't muster that fight to claw your way up the sheer granite cliff, if you won't sell your very soul to get it, well... I'm not sure what to say. I've met many others in our situation. Those with the drive find their lives. Those that don't, fall by the wayside somewhere in endless group sessions and therapy.
This is as close to the cold hard truth as I will ever post.
Michelle (AKA Cindianna Jones)
Cindi,
Your story is very much like my own.......
A triumph over disaster and something that was never going to be avoided, a question of "when" rather than "if" the emotional strain became to much and I had to find the inner courage to admit I was living a lie.
I was a very succesful guy, PhD, MBA, great job, wonderful family, two fantastic kids, a trophy cabinet full of sporting achievements and all the trappings of success.......... but It was never my life, I didn't belong there, I hated every minute apart from my family.
How can you explain the pain, every second of every minute, of every hour of every day to someone? How do you explain to your partner why you are always crying in your sleep, why you don't want to go to work dressed in a suit and tie....because it is not you!
I kept going through many years of deep depression, jealousy, pain and falling deeper into my own nightmare, being trapped in my lifestyle and my love of my family. I carried my secret, my denial around for 39 years before attempting suicide made me realise that I had only two choices to transition and risk losing everything or die..... :'(
I found the strength to see a Doctor and got a referal to see a a specialist. Just over two years later I had fully transitioned and had SRS. I lost everything, emotionally, financially, my career , because of my Gender issues...
I had to borrow the money to do this, my ex partner and my two sons got everything else, the house, cars and still $5000 US per month Alimony. My parents disowned me (although I am now reconciled with my father) and I lost the majority of my (so called) close friends. The Company I worked for moved me out of the limelight and would have loved to get rid of me, although it is extremely difficult under UK law. I came within 24 hours of being declared bankrupt under UK law.
I suffered ridicule, discrimination, but all this did was harden my resolve and become more determined to suceed... No one was ever going to stop me trying to find my own happiness.
In 2002 I left my home country, with two suitcases and a small black and white Cat (Buffy), for a new life and job abroad and an uncertain future. The rest as they say is history. I have found an inner strength, confidence and spirit that I never had before in my life. I have clawed my way back up that granite cliff and now I am in sight of the top. Within two years I will have paid back my debts.
As far as I know, there is no cure for deep routed Transexualism apart from physically transitioning and living the life you where denied by birth. I wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy, it literaly was soul destroying.
I know many people stay with their families, have supportive wives and children, that must be so fantastic and wonderful to keep those relationships alive. I also know many people are unable to fund the things they want to do and that is so sad.
In hindsight would I do the same again, absolutely.........
Rebecca
I understand what you both are saying. The drive is so strong to move forward that nothing becomes too great of a price to pay. I have been able to remain on my feet so far because luck has favored me. I lost my job a little while after I came out and luck gave me a better job. I've pretty much lost my family and although I don't act like it, it does hurt. My parents have completely stopped communicating with me at this point as they told me they would if I "decided" to go ahead and transition. I am constantly stressed out at home too. It's quite possible I may end up losing my home from all of this and as a result, my wife will keep the kids from me and try to take everything I have in court. In other words, I still have a lot I may lose. It doesn't mean there is any going back for me. Now that I'm fulltime, I feel I've come to the eye of the storm. There is once again peace, but I know it will be short-lived as soon as the dysphoria catches up again (which it does from time to time) and the drive to have surgery will become unbearable.
Melissa
Hi boys and girls:
After doing some research, I found an article somewhere which deals with this issue. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
QUOTE "While there is no question that early intervention is of supreme benefit to the transsexual -and the earlier the better- it is often tantamount to suicide to make an error of judgment in the matter of sex reassignment, whatever the degree of alteration. For this reason, careful filters have been created, such as the Benjamin Standards Of Care, to help prevent the occurrence of hideous mistakes. Even so, there are always a few souls, and the suggestion is that the number is large, who use their special gifts to get around the system. Rarely, this results in the partial or total destruction of a life. The blame for such a mistake is squarely on the head of the person seeking reassignment, though some, in their pathos and degradation, attempt to sue or harass the very individuals that gave them what they themselves demanded. There is no bottom to which some humans cannot sink, in their attempt to avoid responsibility for themselves.
It is self responsibility that is the key issue here! There is currently no sure test, no absolute method of determining the gender orientation of any person. While gender issues are deadly serious, they are also exceedingly subjective, and the physicians that have the courage to care for the transsexual or the transgendered must act from a position of acceptance of the claims of the patient. The full burden of responsibility MUST fall only upon the transsexual or transgendered person, for there is no realistic way for any other person to truly know what is best to do for them.
For this reason, it is mandatory that the person with gender issues take total responsibility for their own life. It is required that YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE. You must define YOURSELF, and you must do so honestly.
The penalty that nature, that reality itself inflicts on the casual, the unwary, the unconcerned and the foolish is ABSOLUTE. Sex reassignment is absolutely ONE WAY ONLY, and attempts to reverse the procedure after completion are sad at best. The bottom line is very simple.
YOU ONLY GET ONE CHANCE TO CHANGE YOUR SEX
If you make a mistake, if you screw up, if you are wrong, you HAVE to live with the consequences, and no matter what you may feel about it, it could ONLY have been your own choice, it is utterly your OWN RESPONSIBILITY. There is no one else to rationally blame.
This means, of course, that the person who is not entirely sure of what they are is in a special, terrible hell. Time is quickly ticking away their easily mutable youth, and changing them in one direction or another whether they like it or not, and if they act wrongly to solve their misery, they could end up FAR worse off.
Therefore one must act more quickly to come to a better understanding of one's true identity, to come to self understanding, than almost any human being. It is a tall order. The question, is how to do this.
There are many resources for this process, from counselors and therapists to friends and even occasionally family. Nothing can replace the only real method, being willing to face one's own true feelings, which with or without guidance, is a solitary pursuit. You must make the effort to try to face yourself, and NEVER GIVE UP. Only you can ever really know you...though others can often act as mirrors if you are too close to your issues to see them directly. The key to success in self knowledge is to pursue it. Those enslaved to denial and avoidance, who put off and procrastinate, are the souls destined for doom. If you have gender issues that hurt badly enough that they need to be addressed, then you must confront them. Talk about them to those you trust, hang on, pursue, learn, study and focus until you finally can decide who you are and what you want. Putting it off will only make things vastly worse. It is hard work, it is not easy, and it hurts to do this. But remember, it hurts anyway, or you would not be driven by your gender issues. That pain will likely only get worse as the years progress. Regret is terrible, whether for lost time, or for making the wrong choice.
THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR KNOWING YOURSELF
The bottom line here is that to figure out what you truly want, you have to stop repressing, denying and hiding, and come Out to yourself. You have to be emotionally willing to accept whatever you may turn out to be. If you do not know what you want, it is because you are disassociated from your own feelings, as a defense mechanism. The only solution is to overcome that which made you deny your feelings. That is done by examining your attitudes and beliefs, questioning them, and dropping the ones that cause you to feel like disassociation is a safe thing. Perhaps you may have internalized homophobia, or religious intolerance of your own condition, or a scolding parental program running in the back of your mind, or fear of rejection, or just plain do not want to face the inevitable pain of dealing with things. Whatever is the cause (or causes, more likely), you must find it and dispose of it. When that is done, then you must start to really feel what you are, want and need.
HALFWAY MEASURES: THINGS YOU CAN DO TO TEST YOURSELF
One excellent way to learn is not theoretical, it is by hands on experience. In the circumstance of discovering gender identity, a supreme tactic is to experiment.
The best experiments would ideally be nonfatal, non-permanent and very revealing. Perhaps the single most effective tool for self knowledge of gender identity, is to experiment with hormones.
To much of the medical establishment this is a bold, or at worst, a precipitous thing to suggest. It is not without some risk, but the risk is fairly small, short term.
Go on hormones for up to six months.
Beyond six months, the effects of hormone therapy start to become permanent, with eight months being the edge of going too far. Within six months, almost all effects, at least of estrogens, are reversible over time. It should be noted that for Female-To-Male transsexuals, testosterone changes are not reversible at all.
Hormone therapy is very revealing. The test procedure very simple. If after several months, you love and prefer how you feel, think and are, then you are probably on the right track, indications are suggestive that this is right for you. If you really don't like how you feel, think and are, if it makes you uncomfortable, disturbed and uneasy, then this is a direct indication that changing your sex is not the best choice.
Hormones affect almost every aspect of your functioning, and simply by noting if the experience is good or bad, you should get some idea of what you really want. Remember though, that what you want could be anything, even some comfortable place Other than Male or Female, so keep an open mind.
Simply quit when you choose. Take responsibility for this.
A less biological test is to simply live in your chosen gender role for a given time. This is often hard to arrange, but a vacation or time off, or other retreat can provide the space to experiment. If you are brave enough, or passable enough to do so openly, then do so.
If it is awful, it is not right. If it is good, it is.
THE THINGS I DID
Things that helped me to know myself included the horrifying realization that I was gradually developing adult sex characteristics, the careful use of psychoactives to destroy my inner inhibitions and barriers, direct life-or-death confrontation with my problem, and on a more gentle side, the effects of movies and stories.
I paid attention to the things that made me cry and feel powerful emotions and used those to help me uncover my own repressed desires. By pursuing my own obsessions and fascinations, while at the same time making sure that I observed my own feelings while doing them, I gradually broke down my own internal barriers. I experimented with my issues and made note of what made me the happiest. I kept a diary and used it to total up my own actions to gain a perspective over time. I sought out the stories and ideas of others who had already done what I imagined I wanted to do.
But in the end, I dared to take total responsibility for my own life, made a choice, and resolved to accept the consequences with honor and courage. Ultimately, that is all you can ever do.
Transsexual and Transgendered people can and do live happy, rewarding lives, all the better for having faced their own issues and winning through.
I know, because I have done so, and so have my many successful transsexual and transgendered friends.
Of course you can, too. You just have to be willing to be courageous, responsible, and intelligent. Gambatte !"UNQUOTE
tinkerbell
Quote from: Tinkerbell on August 13, 2006, 01:11:40 PM
But in the end, I dared to take total responsibility for my own life, made a choice, and resolved to accept the consequences with honor and courage. Ultimately, that is all you can ever do.
I have to completely agree with this statement. That is exactly how I started my transition. It didn't take me long to come to this, but I knew what I was doing and was willing to accept any consequences. I am happy I did.
Melissa
Tinkerbell,
I liked that article. I had a breakdown and a suicide attempt when I decided that it had to come out or I was going to die. I couldn't hold it in any longer. I was a pressure cooker waiting to explode and I almost did. What a relief it was to just talk to someone about my deep dark secret that no one knew about. I knew all the consequences of coming out and I knew that I could lose everything. I was OK with that. I was hoping that it didn't happen. I guess my prayers were answered as I have the best family a person could ever ask for. They all accepted me, except for one. I did lose a few aquaitenances but like someone told me their loss. I'm happy now and I love life. I still have a low self esteem problem, but I'm working on it. I guess the problem there is that I'm 57 and I don't look like Brittainy Spears. LOL
Sheila
Steph
QuotePersonally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph, I've been reading your posts for a year and usually you give INCREDIBLY insightful advice.
All I have to say regarding this advice is, you knew you were a TS when you were young. You went into denial and tried to live your life as a male for what 40? 45? years.
You didn't transition for precisely the reasons you listed in your quote, and yet you are still TS and would have been considered TS had you gone into therapy at 30, right?
So, why didn't you transition when you were 18? 25? 30? prior to when you did?
Fear?
Regret?
Shame?
... The same reasons you listed above.
And yet, you still would be considered TS, even when you were in denial
Have you come so far that you have forgotten what it was like?
Jessica
Quote from: Jessica on August 14, 2006, 09:00:04 AM
Steph
QuotePersonally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph, I've been reading your posts for a year and usually you give INCREDIBLY insightful advice.
All I have to say regarding this advice is, you knew you were a TS when you were young. You went into denial and tried to live your life as a male for what 40? 45? years.
You didn't transition for precisely the reasons you listed in your quote, and yet you are still TS and would have been considered TS had you gone into therapy at 30, right?
So, why didn't you transition when you were 18? 25? 30? prior to when you did?
Fear?
Regret?
Shame?
... The same reasons you listed above.
And yet, you still would be considered TS, even when you were in denial
Have you come so far that you have forgotten what it was like?
Jessica
Hello Jessica.
Thanks so much for your comments and insight. What you say is quite true Jessica, however while I knew that there was something different about me at an early age, I didn't realise what it was until much later in life that I was TS. When I was young I had no idea what was wrong with me other than there was something different, I didn't even know what TS was. Like many here I started cross-dressing, and those activities became so prevalent later in life that I knew that there was something wrong with me, something other than wanting to "dress". It took a while to figure it out but when I did, transition and everything associated with it started.
I began to self mutilate those offending parts and tried many ways to fix what was obviously a huge mistake. Yes I did stupid things but I got myself on track. I quickly ended my career in the military, came out, almost lost my family, and I was only just recently reunited with my daughter. The fear was always there, and it's rears it's head every now and then, but shame and regret were never apart of my decision.
I'm really surprised that this topic was resurrected as there was very heated debate over the whole issue of my beliefs and many, many Pm's exchanged with those involved.
I still hold to my beliefs that
QuotePersonally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
I realise that my words my offend some and get the "backs up" with others, but I calls them as I see's them. When it comes to TS I do not try to sugar coat anything with a "You go girls" type of thing as this can be a life threatening issue for those involved.
Again, I will say to all those who read my words that I did not write them to offend, I wrote them to discribe how I see who and what a TS is. Just simply the courage of my convictions.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on August 14, 2006, 09:44:06 AM
...while I knew that there was something different about me at an early age, I didn't realise what it was until much later in life that I was TS. When I was young I had no idea what was wrong with me other than there was something different, I didn't even know what TS was. Like many here I started cross-dressing, and those activities became so prevalent later in life that I knew that there was something wrong with me, something other than wanting to "dress". It took a while to figure it out but when I did, transition and everything associated with it started.
That statement echos my own life oh so well. In fact, it was here at Susans that helped me figure most of it out. I had know idea what TS was or that I was TS until last year. Transition started shortly after, as I knew there was finally something I could do about how I felt. I think in general, your quote below rings true.
QuotePersonally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
I just didn't put up as much resistance as some people do. I may have waited until much later in life if I had not had the internet available to me, so I understand why it took you so long.
Melissa
Quote...very heated debate over the whole issue of my beliefs...
*smiles*
Those are your beliefs and you hold a great deal of conviction regarding those beliefs. I respect your right to hold those beliefs and the conviction you hold in them; so, no heated debate from me. :)
I hold my own beliefs that many others disagree with, and you may have challenged them, but you have never denied my right to hold them, and while some have told me they are unacceptable beliefs, you have never been among them.
*hugs*
Jessica
Steph,
While not trying to start anything and they are my beliefs too. I will agree with you on this subject. There are different reasons why a person can not change but for the most part I think that if you are TS, you will want surgery. Now, I think there are differences in how people define Transsexual, and I think that has a lot to do with it. Like Steph, I didn't know the terms of who I was or that you could even change genders. It wasn't until I got my first computer that I learned a lot. I found Susan's during this time and a few others and read all I could from the websites. I belong to another website called Michelle (spelling) and she helped me along. I found out who I was, which I knew all ready just needed some confirmation. I would have done it when I was younger if there was a computer then and if I would have liked to read books. I worked too much. I'm open to all who are who they are and I congradulate all in finding themselves. I will not pass judgement on this subject. This is my opinion.
Sheila
Quote from: Sheila on August 14, 2006, 04:30:56 PM
Steph,
While not trying to start anything and they are my beliefs too. I will agree with you on this subject. There are different reasons why a person can not change but for the most part I think that if you are TS, you will want surgery. Now, I think there are differences in how people define Transsexual, and I think that has a lot to do with it. ..... This is my opinion.
Sheila
You make great points Sheila. When it comes down to definitions I myself like to stick with those listed in the DSM. Yes, some may think that as being pretty rigid but it's what I believe and feel.
Steph
This thread started with the opinion that those who are Transsexual must, and will transition... or die trying.
Quote from: Steph on March 14, 2006, 08:19:44 PM
I have noticed that there is presently a huge amount of self analyzing going on for those who have doubts, regrets, and/or fears to do with transitioning. There are even those who have said that they have "toyed" with the idea of transitioning and I find that in itself a little odd to say the least. It is interesting that there are many different life situations being discussed that have contributed to those doubts, regrets and fears, and it seems that this is being done in order to rationalize reasons not to transition.
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph
The fact is, such an opinion is far from being fact!
It is true for some, true for you dear Steph, but not true for all.
Being TS/GID is about dealing with misery - Oh yes, I agree! Dysphoria is about immense unhappiness, the very opposite of euphoria.
Something is wrong, wrong, wrong... very wrong.
How can the TS/GID individual best be helped?
For some, the answer is to risk all, focus all their energies toward SRS and everything - ANYTHING - transition requires. Nothing less than complete transition will relieve the misery -EVER-.
For the lucky others diagnosed with TS/GID, that energy is put into creative coping skills. Many are wonderfully successful with this!
There is another solution that will help. One that anyone can be part of... One we often forget about.... We can change society! We can change how gender is viewed! Transsexuals that live in more accepting and/or enlightened cultures have less dysphoria and are much happier with their bodies and lives. Everyone wins! :icon_joy:
It can be argued that SRS/transition is just one of many different coping mechanisms for GID. One of the most extreme to be sure! (Short of self-harm and suicide.) SRS and HRT are recent developments providing options for those with acute GID. Do you not wonder how people in the past dealt with gender dysphoria? They didn't all cut, castrate, or kill themselves!Quote from: Steph on August 14, 2006, 04:48:04 PM
When it comes down to definitions I myself like to stick with those listed in the DSM. Yes, some may think that as being pretty rigid but it's what I believe and feel.
Steph
But Steph, the DSM is not a dictionary. It does not contain any definition of 'Transsexual'. The DSM is a diagnostic aide relying heavily on compiled clinical data and indirectly reflects the sociocultural environment of the times. True, it does outline diagnostic criteria for a coded classification of GID. DSM stands for "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". The DSM is intended for use by mental health professionals, and for use in research and administration. Appropriate use of the diagnostic criteria requires extensive clinical training, and its contents "cannot simply be applied in a cookbook fashion". It does not list any treatment for GID or any other disorder. The current DSM-IV will be revised, updated and published as the DSM-V in 2011. I expect many happy changes in the new GID section - to include GID not being mentioned at all! Homosexuality was included in the DSM until 1980.
Let's think about that... Currently GID is listed as a mental disorder. Hmm... I'll not make the DSM my TS Bible!
So anyhow, let us find a proper definition for 'Transsexual' :
- The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary -
n.1. A person with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex.
2. A person who has undergone a sex change.
- Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary -
Transsexual: n. A person who has a psychological urge to belong to the opposite sex and to live as a member of the opposite sex and who may be motivated by the urge to acquire the necessary physical appearance (as by surgery or hormone use) or to adopt the social role typical of the opposite sex.
- The American Heritage® Dictionary -
n.1. One who wishes to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex.
2. One who has undergone a sex change.
My bottom line: There are choices for those who are Transsexual besides 'transition or die'. Transsexuality does not always require transition. Transition is what SOME Transsexuals will do.
"When all you have in your toolbox is hammers, all your problems look like nails."
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
And these are your beliefs Em. :)
In my comments I did say that "Personally I believe" so these are my personal views I do not profess them to be fact. And just to clarify a little further in that I do say that a TS will "transition" I do not say that they will have SRS, or even start/complete HRT, but that a person will transition, or have a compelling need to transition if they are TS. If they don't then may be they are not TS.
QuoteThere is another solution that will help. One that anyone can be part of... One we often forget about.... We can change society! We can change how gender is viewed! Transsexuals that live in more accepting and/or enlightened cultures have less dysphoria and are much happier with their bodies and lives. Everyone wins!
I agree, this is one of the best ways to help solve many of the problems encountered by TS. I my self have done much, well as much as I can in my own city and area with speaking engagements to both students and medical professionals covering the whole TS spectrum from "I am not a man wearing a dress" to very personal life issues. Education is key, I just wish that more TS would do it, but it is our nature that when transition is complete that we tend to go deep stealth, or at least try to.
QuoteIt can be argued that SRS/transition is just one of many different coping mechanisms for GID. One of the most extreme to be sure! (Short of self-harm and suicide.) SRS and HRT are recent developments providing options for those with acute GID. Do you not wonder how people in the past dealt with gender dysphoria? They didn't all cut, castrate, or kill themselves!
However I would dispute that SRS is transition, I would agree that transition is a relative term, and I would agree that SRS is a part of, or can be a part of transition. Remember that SRS is not always medically possible. Additionally I do not think that many TS in the past would "cut, castrate, or kill themselves", some obviously, (I tried myself) but I imagine they lived a painful life none the less.
And I miss spoke when I said "When it comes down to definitions I myself like to stick with those listed in the DSM." I should have referred to the SOC not the DSM, sorry for that.
Isn't debate wonderful, exasperating, but wonderful :):):)
Steph
As near as I can tell we would seem to need another word. It seems to me that "transition" is so often taken to mean "HRT + probable surgeries". However, to me 'transition' starts when we first realize we are not what the figurative packing label says we are. Or said another way when we first realize we are TG we start to cope and come to terms with that. I call that 'transition' because we start to transition mentally from that point. As far as I know anyway and certainly in my own case. To be clear, I define 'transition' as the whole realization/coping process right down to finding happiness or at least an end or a way to dull the pain by whatever means.
So by the definition I use, a TS WILL transition. An technically so will any TG.
*shrug*
Semantics I suppose.
Oh, it's not really my belief Steph, I think I may qualify as an unbiased witness! Remember, I'm an androgyne with no personal gender irons in this fire. And yes, I agree, transition may or may not include SRS or HRT. :icon_mrhappy:
Viewing the HBIGDA 'Standards Of Care' Version 6, 2001 (SOC) still I could not find a definition of 'Transsexual'. But, there is a diagnosis...
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.
As for whether or not one transitions, the SOC has this to say:
After the diagnosis of GID is made the therapeutic approach usually includes three elements or phases (sometimes labeled triadic therapy): a real-life experience in the desired role, hormones of the desired gender, and surgery to change the genitalia and other sex characteristics. Five less firmly scientifically established observations prevent clinicians from prescribing the triadic therapy based on diagnosis alone:
1) some carefully diagnosed persons spontaneously change their aspirations;
2) others make more comfortable accommodations to their gender identities without medical interventions;
3) others give up their wish to follow the triadic sequence during psychotherapy;
4) some gender identity clinics have an unexplained high drop out rate; and
5) the percentage of persons who are not benefited from the triadic therapy varies significantly from study to study.
Many persons with GID will desire all three elements of triadic therapy. Typically, triadic therapy takes place in the order of hormones ==> real-life experience ==> surgery, or sometimes: real-life experience ==> hormones ==> surgery. For some biologic females, the preferred sequence may be hormones ==> breast surgery ==> real-life experience. However, the diagnosis of GID invites the consideration of a variety of therapeutic options, only one of which is the complete therapeutic triad. Clinicians have increasingly become aware that not all persons with gender identity disorders need or want all three elements of triadic therapy.
From Wikipedia comes a most excellent definition for 'Transition':
Transitioning is the process of ceasing to live in one gender role and starting to live in another, undertaken by transgender and transsexual people.
Transitioning usually happens before any sex reassignment surgery, and in some cases even before any hormone replacement therapy. Transitioning often marks the start of the real life experience which is usually required for SRS.
Many people also use the term 'transitioning' to refer to the entire transgender/transsexual process (from living 24/7 in the original gender role to after surgery). The beginning of the real life experience is then often called 'going fulltime' (i.e. starting to live 24/7 in the opposite gender role).
Transitioning can involve sex reassignment therapy, name changes, wearing clothing seen as gender appropriate or the use of make-up, and generally coming out of the Closet.
This is not the Tower of Babel, it's a TG Support Forum! :icon_joy:
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Exactly Em. :)
I just want to restate my position on this topic I started and that is:
Quote
I have noticed that there is presently a huge amount of self analyzing going on for those who have doubts, regrets, and/or fears to do with transitioning. There are even those who have said that they have "toyed" with the idea of transitioning and I find that in itself a little odd to say the least. It is interesting that there are many different life situations being discussed that have contributed to those doubts, regrets and fears, and it seems that this is being done in order to rationalize reasons not to transition.
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
As I've said through out the tread, these are my beliefs, and I would not expect or require anyone else to understand these feelings wether they were a part of the TG community or on the outside looking in, just as I don't understand what compels a CD/TV/IS or whatever. This is who and what I am. May be the words "or die trying" are a little dramatic, but they emphasize the calamity and torment TS find themselves having to endure everyday of their life until transition is complete. And before anyone say's it... yes! but when is transition complete???
It is also interesting to note how none TS see our plight, just as therapists evaluate and explain why we "are", so do others. Yes there are theories abound but in the end, when all is said and done it is me who has to live my life and I have no choice if i wish to live in peace as to live in torment would be the same as dying.
My feelings :)
Steph
When I went through it all, information was practically non existent. I pretty much ran blind and on my own for quite a while. My therapy was pretty much none until a week or two before I went full time. I did not know about standards of care. I only knew I was doing what had to be done. Oh... had I a resource like this forum. It could have helped so much.
Quote from: EmThis is not the Tower of Babel, it's a TG Support Forum!
Of course this is not the Tower of Babel, of course it is a support forum, I have never stated otherwise. I am simply stating what
"I believe". Hmmmmm it seems you are implying that I am not being supportive, ??? and I fail to see where I have not been supportive. Yes this is a support forum, but telling people "you go girl" and everything nice, and sugar and spice, and not the truth, is not support.
Now I'm grumpy, and it's Friday... I need a holiday from all this :)
Chat later
Steph
Quote from: Steph on August 18, 2006, 05:51:43 PM
Quote from: EmThis is not the Tower of Babel, it's a TG Support Forum!
Now I'm grumpy, and it's Friday... I need a holiday from all this :)
Chat later
Steph
The constant binder
continuous reminder
of that which
we'd rather forget.
It opresses,
confesses
issues,
drives us in debt.
Weekend is hear
run away
live for the day
a day with no regret.
Have some fun
let your heartstring run.
Nothing need be done
On your days of rest.
Cindi
What an interesting thread, reading it stirs strong emotions in me. But I am well aware that what are expressed here are personal opinions and that nobody is judging or making comparisons, are they??
I know you arn't Steph because I took the time to go back and read your posts carefully before I jumped in and shot my mouth off yet again. They are your well and carefully presented opinions - that I just don't happen to agree with. But, that's, as you stated, the wonderful part of debate.
A 'throw away' comment on the difference between a cross dresser & a transexual is 5 years. Geez, thinking on that it is so true (unless you are into kinkyness & fetishes & that sort of stuff). Yes, I also was aware of somthing "different" about me when I was growing up coulden't quite put my finger on it - but it was more than being happy to go about wearing panties & a bra & such forth. They are just props, its a question of feelings & values.
So, with me, analysing myself I am in essence transexual. Get dressed up with in womans clothes - then, why, what happens then?? That's when my thoughts get mixed up & I retreat in fear and confusion (no they dont I can see how it would finish up) it would be all or nothing and I bloody will NOT destroy my & my families lives, I will live with the stress. I think Leigh said way back that whatever happens there is a cost, so I will choose the cost of not transitioning. If there was only me I guess the Transexuals will Transition makes sense. Otherwise its a nonsense.
Anyway thats my own personal opinion
Rana
Quote from: Rana on August 18, 2006, 09:17:39 PM
What an interesting thread, reading it stirs strong emotions in me. But I am well aware that what are expressed here are personal opinions and that nobody is judging or making comparisons, are they??
I know you arn't Steph because I took the time to go back and read your posts carefully before I jumped in and shot my mouth off yet again. They are your well and carefully presented opinions - that I just don't happen to agree with. But, that's, as you stated, the wonderful part of debate.
A 'throw away' comment on the difference between a cross dresser & a transexual is 5 years. Geez, thinking on that it is so true (unless you are into kinkyness & fetishes & that sort of stuff). Yes, I also was aware of somthing "different" about me when I was growing up coulden't quite put my finger on it - but it was more than being happy to go about wearing panties & a bra & such forth. They are just props, its a question of feelings & values.
So, with me, analysing myself I am in essence transexual. Get dressed up with in womans clothes - then, why, what happens then?? That's when my thoughts get mixed up & I retreat in fear and confusion (no they dont I can see how it would finish up) it would be all or nothing and I bloody will NOT destroy my & my families lives, I will live with the stress. I think Leigh said way back that whatever happens there is a cost, so I will choose the cost of not transitioning. If there was only me I guess the Transexuals will Transition makes sense. Otherwise its a nonsense.
Anyway thats my own personal opinion
Rana
I always look forward to your comments Rana but I find it hard "that you just don't happen to agree with my carefully presented opinions ". LOL :)
Just curious Rana when you dress in women's cloths what would you have expected to happen? Why would you do it, as you seem to be expecting a result or experience that would confirm that you are TS when you do. And I'm interested in what this "essence" you speak of as I don't think that I've heard this in ref to TS (But that doesn't suprise me) :). Living with the stress is what I thought I could do. I purged, made deals, compromised, but maybe I'm not as strong as others as this was something I could not overcome and eventually I had to transition no matter what the cost.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on August 18, 2006, 05:51:43 PM
Quote from: EmThis is not the Tower of Babel, it's a TG Support Forum!
Of course this is not the Tower of Babel, of course it is a support forum, I have never stated otherwise. I am simply stating what "I believe". Hmmmmm it seems you are implying that I am not being supportive, ??? and I fail to see where I have not been supportive. Yes this is a support forum, but telling people "you go girl" and everything nice, and sugar and spice, and not the truth, is not support.
Steph
Good heavens, that is not what I was expressing at all to the many readers of this thread in my parting words!!! I was stating the obvious (this is undoubtedly a TG resource website), and referring to the importance of mutual understanding of word meanings and lingo specific to the TG community.
In the Biblical book of Genesis, God stopped the building of the Tower of Babel by confusing the people's languages so that each spoke a different tongue. As a result, they could no longer communicate with one another and the work was halted. The people were then scattered to different parts of the Earth.
Communication is the key to success! :icon_biggrin:
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Yea, he taught them all English... so we could really get confused.
>:D
Cindi
Hey Steph, thank you :)
I post stuff that moves me in divers ways, but its like dropping pebbles down a deep well - I have no idea what happens, am I boring the socks off people, irritating them or what? But that's what posting in forums is all about, more reflective and a different dimension to the immediacy of chat. I am glad my posts do not bore you at least ;D
You should know by now that I have strongly held opinions about stuff and while not inflexible am resistant to changing them. However, I do take notice of your posts - hopefully you may note your good manners & courtesy may have rubbed off on me a bit (we can always hope :) ).
I enjoy posts that have logic and especially passion, on that note I will say I miss janc and her posts greatly.
As for me crossdresser or transexual? I am really not sure what I expect to happen but its somthing more than just wearing clothes. On that very note this weekend I was home alone, put on skirt and top, felt good for a while but all dressed up & nowhere to go Steph :( what was the point, in essence they were just props to me.
Maybe if I gave an example, before I came to Susans, was visiting another site, got on well with people there. One member posted a picture of a group of friends, they regularly dress up and go out and have dinner together. Looking at the picture of the group, well dressed elegant, enjoying each others company, and I felt this wave of sadness and longing to belong - I posted that I would have loved to been there with them, reply they would have loved me to join them. Me in another hemisphere & all :(
The closest I have got to that feeling was when I was in the army (a chocko, I know I was not a real soldier) and more strongly when I was in a spearfishing club, a group with not much in common other than a deeply held passion. We would meet booze on, brag about what we had been up to & plan future activities our common passion made everything good.
So you see Steph, in essence I would long to live the life of a gentle cultivated lady. I think I mentioned in another post I would have loved to be a singer - uno French love songs, Chantresse (not sure of spelling at all - what I have spelt probably means a dog or somthing :( ) . Passion with elegance and culture I would love.
Love
Rana
Hi Rana,
I know how that feels to be all dressed up and nowehere to go. I recently went out as Alice to a support group and had a great night. Maybe you should look for some support around your area or in Sydney. It is so much nicer going out then being home alone.
Alice
The transsexual will transition. The transsexual that is so desperate to do the, "do or die" mentality either has doubts or is not a true transsexual, and is only doing so because he/she wants an escape, "the grass is greener on the other end of the fence" kind of thing.
The true transsexual, will know that it will transition, and will happily await that day. It will be a natural thing, an joyous path, and taken so it can then enjoy the rest of life as a transsexual, instead of getting done with transition and sitting around thinking, "what now?"
That's my opinion!
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 06:27:44 PM
The transsexual will transition. The transsexual that is so desperate to do the, "do or die" mentality either has doubts or is not a true transsexual, and is only doing so because he/she wants an escape, "the grass is greener on the other end of the fence" kind of thing.
The true transsexual, will know that it will transition, and will happily await that day. It will be a natural thing, an joyous path, and taken so it can then enjoy the rest of life as a transsexual, instead of getting done with transition and sitting around thinking, "what now?"
That's my opinion!
Hmmmmmm... Some very good points Annwyn. Personally I subscribe to the following definition of Transition (Yep I'm into definitions) :)
QuoteTransitioning is the process of ceasing to live in one gender role and starting to live in another, undertaken by transgender and transsexual people.
Transitioning usually happens before any sex reassignment surgery, and in some cases even before any hormone replacement therapy. Transitioning often marks the start of the real life experience which is usually required for SRS.
Many people also use the term 'transitioning' to refer to the entire transgender/transsexual process (from living 24/7 in the original gender role to after surgery). The beginning of the real life experience is then often called 'going fulltime' (i.e. starting to live 24/7 in the opposite gender role).
Transitioning can involve sex reassignment therapy, name changes, wearing clothing seen as gender appropriate or the use of make-up, and generally coming out of the Closet.
It is unfortunate indeed that some TS are so desperate that they will do anything or die trying. I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria and I tried unsuccessfully several times, so I guess I would fall into your definition in that I was/am desperate enough and would have died trying. Sooooooooo... I guess based on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS. I must be something else. ??? Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled :)
I can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path". When will you know when "that day" arrives?
My last point is that when I have transitioned I will not be enjoying my life as a transsexual but as a woman, a woman I have always been. Which seems to contradict your thinking that transition is a way of life whereas I see transition as a process. (But then I've been wrong before - I thought I was wrong once, but I was simply mistaken) :)
Steph
Quote from: Steph on August 31, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria
Me too, but it was also from other depressions.
Quotebased on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS. I must be something else. ??? Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled :)
Eh, no you're not. Now you're a woman, not a TS:-p
QuoteI can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path". When will you know when "that day" arrives?
The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO. It will then be happy that it is doing something toward transition, and when it does transition it will simply be letting itself out.
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 07:51:33 PM
Quote from: Steph on August 31, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria
Me too, but it was also from other depressions.
Quotebased on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS. I must be something else. ??? Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled :)
Eh, no you're not. Now you're a woman, not a TS :-p
QuoteI can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path". When will you know when "that day" arrives?
The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO. It will then be happy that it is doing something toward transition, and when it does transition it will simply be letting itself out.
Aha now I see, and I agree.
Steph
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 07:51:33 PM...
The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO.
...
Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.
P.s. why 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things. (=
Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 08:46:10 PM
Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.
No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person. The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is. The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success. Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope. "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself. That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.
Quotewhy 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things. (=
I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format. Considering "transsexual" can mean a male who wants to be a female, or a female that wants to be a male, OR a female "trapped" in a man's body, or a man "trapped" in a woman's body, it's simply much easier to use a gender neutral term instead of typing, "he/she" ever single time. If I were to say, "he" to a MtF, it would be offended, but I couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I? I reserve pronouns concerning transsexuals only by how much effort has been put into it. I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it. Kate, as much as SHE has the heart, has only earned it by heart, which is very rare to me.
But yeah, don't take offense. It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!
[/quote]
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM
I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it.
Aw, thanks. :icon_redface:
Melissa
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM...
No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person. The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is. The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success. Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope. "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself. That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.
...
It is prudent to not confuse incapability with unwillingness. That aside though. I agree that "Do or die" is not transsexualism. BUT, I do think it can be seen as 'so determined'. Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.
Interesting point of view (=
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM...
I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format.
...It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!
...
(= I figured something like that.
Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
That aside though. I agree that "Do or die" is not transsexualism. BUT, I do think it can be seen as 'so determined'. Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.
The point is that it's impatience, rather than determination. It's not so much do it or die, but "do it NOW or die" that can really bad. I saw it more as transition, misery, or death and I didn't want the last 2 options. :)
Melissa
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 08:46:10 PM
Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.
No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person. The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is. The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success. Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope. "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself. That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.
Quotewhy 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things. (=
I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format. Considering "transsexual" can mean a male who wants to be a female, or a female that wants to be a male, OR a female "trapped" in a man's body, or a man "trapped" in a woman's body, it's simply much easier to use a gender neutral term instead of typing, "he/she" ever single time. If I were to say, "he" to a MtF, it would be offended, but I couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I? I reserve pronouns concerning transsexuals only by how much effort has been put into it. I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it. Kate, as much as SHE has the heart, has only earned it by heart, which is very rare to me.
But yeah, don't take offense. It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!
[/quote]
I was an unhappy person as a guy, not as a transsexual. It was being a guy, I couldn't cope with,once I accepted that being labelled "transsexual" wasn't an issue.
I think use of a gender neutral term is an important step in transition. I guess there is a point in everyones journey that as part of the metamorphis from changing gender, we go through a phase when we can appear (to others) as neither one or the other (dressing androgynous for instance, changing voice).
I know at that time people where confused and I got called by every pronoun and to an extent even I was confused as to what I should be refered to, so gender neutral pronouns such as "they" seemed to fit the bill.
Now, 4 years post op, I am simply a woman, thats the only label that matters, because it is the only one I ever wanted.
Buffy
Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM"Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself. That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.
Depression can often be the result of TSism. I think this goes back to you can't put the genie back in the bottle; once a person realizes that the gender he or she is living in is all wrong, the drive is there to make the change and any roadblock or going backwards might result in a "do or die" mindset.
QuoteI couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I?
Whyever not? ;)
As far as pronouns go, there's not just "he or she" and "s/he" but also ze (hir) and em (ey, eir). I suppose "they" as a gender neutral singular is okay, given that the pronoun "you" used to be strictly plural (and now we have "y'all", "youse", and "yinz"). :P
Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.
Yes but Kim, "Do or Die" is not throwing it all away to get there, but simple throwing it all away because you can't get there immediately, even though half the time it's your own fault(not yours, just using 2nd person).
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on September 01, 2006, 01:00:28 PM
Depression can often be the result of TSism. I think this goes back to you can't put the genie back in the bottle; once a person realizes that the gender he or she is living in is all wrong, the drive is there to make the change and any roadblock or going backwards might result in a "do or die" mindset.
No... thta's not the common mentality of many transsexuals that was being referred to.
Quote from: Annwyn on September 01, 2006, 03:49:16 PM
Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.
Yes but Kim, "Do or Die" is not throwing it all away to get there, but simple throwing it all away because you can't get there immediately, even though half the time it's your own fault(not yours, just using 2nd person).
Ah, alright I think I understand. Ironically we are basically saying the same thing.
For instance when I say "transition or death" I am not saying transition right now or I'll take my bucket and shovel and go home, rather that there is no other acceptable outcome. I.e. I would rather be dead than something else basically. To me, there is no time frame specified.
Points of view are fun and interesting things (=
I might have gotten my panties in a bunch here, but I do not like for anyone to refer to anyone else as an "it". Call them by a name or something that has a human touch to it. It is so monster like. Another word I dislike is eunich. I won't go into that one
Sheila
You probably don't like eunuch, because it is essentially a male without genitals, but they are still a man.
Melissa
Quote from: Sheila on September 01, 2006, 05:14:54 PM
I might have gotten my panties in a bunch here, but I do not like for anyone to refer to anyone else as an "it". Call them by a name or something that has a human touch to it. It is so monster like. Another word I dislike is eunich. I won't go into that one
Oh well, your panties are in a bunch, I'll keep my g-sting tight and use a proper term so nothing can be argued. Just as I'd call an unspecified human indivudual, or an intelligent dolphin, or the CREATOR, "It," I'll call a transsexual, "It" as well unless it's an IDENTIFIED person and will then refer to them as the pronoun I find appropriate, such as you would be a "she" but the little ->-bleeped-<- crossdressing in private is very much going to be referred by its birth gender by me until it has EARNED usage of the other pronouns.
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 06:46:31 PM
Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 05:28:37 PM
You probably don't like eunuch, because it is essentially a male without genitals, but they are still a man.
SOOO....
A male who removes his genitals is still considered male?
OOOOH goody...
I could start some hell on these forums like that:-p
But I'll be a good girl, and I'll keep my devious mouth shut right now... as hard as it is>.<
Quote from: Annwyn on September 01, 2006, 05:48:18 PM
SOOO....
A male who removes his genitals is still considered male?
OOOOH goody...
I could start some hell on these forums like that:-p
But I'll be a good girl, and I'll keep my devious mouth shut right now... as hard as it is>.<
I never said
he removed them. I said a "male without genitals". Try telling a transitioned non-op FtM they aren't male. :o Again, you can't define a man or a woman by genitals alone. ::)
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 05:55:05 PM
you can't define a man or a woman by genitals alone. ::)
Eh, I don't think I'd have a problem with it, except for this whole "mental identity" thing.
Honestly, I'm still not comfortable being referred to as, "female" when I havn't done a thing to deserve the title.
Ah, that's where mental transition and self-acceptance come in. I know it is working towards "earning the title", but when you can completely see youself as male or female, it makes it sure changes how you feel when somebody referes to you as a gender you don't identify as. When I first started transitioning, it didn't bug me if somebody called me male and felt a little weird when referred to as female. After some time, I was able to accept who I was and that sure changed my perceptions. Eventually I was cringing whenever somebody said "sir" (which didn't happen often at that point). Really, calling somebody by the gender they identify as is more a matter of respect and courtesy than anything.
Melissa
I don't consider myself a eunuch as I am a woman. A woman can not be a eunuch. These were men, noted men, who were castrated so they wouldn't get any ideas in the harem. They kept their penis. A FtoM is not considered a eunuch either as they are men who have testosterone going through their bodies and they are very viril. I wouldn't let some of them stand over the harem, unless I was in there. It would be like letting the fox protect the hen house.
If a crossdresser was all dressed up and ready to go out, I would difinately call her a she and use the fem pronoun. However she is expressed is how I would address her or him. I would use a little respect.
Sheila
Quote from: Sheila on September 01, 2006, 07:33:49 PM
I don't consider myself a eunuch as I am a woman. A woman can not be a eunuch. These were men, noted men, who were castrated so they wouldn't get any ideas in the harem. They kept their penis. A FtoM is not considered a eunuch either as they are men who have testosterone going through their bodies and they are very viril. I wouldn't let some of them stand over the harem, unless I was in there. It would be like letting the fox protect the hen house.
If a crossdresser was all dressed up and ready to go out, I would difinately call her a she and use the fem pronoun. However she is expressed is how I would address her or him. I would use a little respect.
Sheila
atta girl! :)
What is an eunuch? (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Eunuch)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
A eunuch is a castrated man. My explanation was showing my analytical thought vs my personal feelings. Analytically, I can not say that my corporal body is anything but a eunuch with some enhancements. It is what it is. I've done all I can with it.
In my mind, I don't really think of gender too much. I am calm. Screaming calm, roaring silence. I do love myself. Does that explain my thoughts?
When it comes to interacting, I do love the female pronouns. I enjoy being treated as a woman. And when it comes time to look nice, mostly when I perform, I do enjoy fixing myself up to look nice.
I do not seek sexual activities but enjoy orgasms very much. Wierd.
I'm not trying to hurt or attack anyone here. I'm just trying to be totally honest about the way that Cindi thinks. My semantic differences did create a bit of confusion with my counselors because I was the first with them to not talk the recurring line. But they had the opportunity to work with me for some time and knew me. I was not held back by my different perspective.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on September 01, 2006, 08:32:39 PM
I do not seek sexual activities but enjoy orgasms very much. Wierd.
Then I'm weird too.
Dawn
Hi! :)
First of all I want to thank again all of you for let me in and giving me the opportunity to get in contact with you.
I am still in the process of learning and reading all the posts here, so I ask in advance for your forgiveness if I am going to say something obvious (or stupid), but I like to share with you my thoughts about this very interesting thread.
First of all, I do consider myself Transsexual simply because I have always known, from early childhood, I was born in a wrong body and live part of my life as female is just a way to ease my discomfort, not a solution to my problems. My greatest aspiration, my deepest desire is to be an ordinary woman, but the kind of woman that no one will never notice in the crowd. I just can't stand my body and I do not need to tell you how I suffer for the pain this situation gives me constantly.
So, as I consider myself Transsexual (and please correct me if I am wrong) with a *very* strong desire to transition. I can only agree with thread's subject: Transsexuals will Transition! I really think there are no choices.
But... If I am still here in this position is because I think that there is another important quality a Transsexual person must have to be able to do the transition: the ability and the determination to even write an "End" to his/her own life and to start another one from scratch.
I had never had these talents and I missed the ability to handle my own life at the right time. I often think I have some alibies (the most important one is that I have grown in a small town in South of Italy in pre-internet era and at that time I could never imagine anything like HRT and SRS nor I have never had references or someone could help me), but if I face my personal history seriously, I can only say that I have not been so strong and determined to cut with parents, friends and city but so weak to choose to (just) survive on the edge of depression.
So, from my experience, Transsexual will Transition (if strong and determined)!
Thanks a lot!
Grazia,
You're a fool to think that being able to end your own life is a "talent."
A fool.
BUT.
Welcome!
Become a woman!
That is the whole purpose you're here right?
Grazia;
I am many lives. Each one is a different person I know and how they see me.
Some I may never see after transition. For them, my life has ended. Even if they believe me still alive, it will be the old 'me' they see.
Some I may meet after I finish transition, and am comfortable in my new role. For them, my life will have a beginning 'from scratch.'
Some will know me through transition. Some will let the 'me' they see change, others will have their 'me' frozen at some point in our past. The ones who let me change will see me transform to a woman before their eyes.
I'm already meeting people who see me as female, so those lives are 'beginning from scratch.'
There can be no hard line -- 'that was male, this is female'. It is a blending
Karen
Quote from: tinkerbell on August 13, 2006, 01:11:40 PM
For this reason, it is mandatory that the person with gender issues take total responsibility for their own life. It is required that YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE. You must define YOURSELF, and you must do so honestly.
Hi everyone,
I'm new in here and just stumbled across this very interesting thread.
I mostly agree gender identity is subjective and therefore the clients seeking transition services must assume responsibility for their actions, however I just recently came across a study in which 53% of gender patients had expressed a need for counseling or help in clarifying their identity. In some cases, such as the national gender clinic in my country, the clinicians see themselves strictly as gatekeeps in a year-long observation of the gender incongruent person. Now when it takes a year of psychiatric observation to get a letter in support of a name change it is highly improbable that the gender patients will allow themself to express any doubts.
Studies of diabetics have shown that they some times plain make up results because they fear disapproval from their physicians if they are not in range. Now what do you think a transsexual would do when they don't risk just disapproval and medication change, but risk being shut out from the chance to transition?
Although in the end the responsibility is on the gender client there certainly is a responsibility upon the clinicians for providing information and an environment, which allows the client to express and explore all aspects of their gender management.
--
Tippe
I don't care much for labels and exactly what qualifies you as a 'transexual' vs something else.
I don't care if some people feel that they don't need to transition, and I only mildly care that some people are arrogant enough to believe that nobody needs to transition.
What I know for certain is that I personally needed to transition, and that I knew it well before I saw my first therapist.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on April 03, 2010, 08:21:10 PM
I don't care much for labels and exactly what qualifies you as a 'transexual' vs something else.
I don't care if some people feel that they don't need to transition, and I only mildly care that some people are arrogant enough to believe that nobody needs to transition.
What I know for certain is that I personally needed to transition, and that I knew it well before I saw my first therapist.
Thanks - I guess! - for reawakening this thread. (None of what I have to say, BTW, is directed at you, Ashley)!! I must say that I found it shocking. I hate the idea that there are 'real' transsexuals and - what? - unreal ones, fake one, phoney ones, whatever.
The fact is that gender, like sexuality, is not polarized in the way that many people - both straight and LGBT - would like. We do not all fit into handy little boxes. We each sit somewhere on an incredibly complex spectrum of personal identity that combines our sense of gender-identity, our sexuality, our culture and our personal circumstances.
I, like most people here, I guess, knew I was 'different' at an early age. By my mid-teens, I knew what that difference was. But my Gender Incongruity (as the new DSM-V will define it) was never so severe that it made me suicidal, or self-hating/self-mutilating ... in a way, I wish it had. My choices would have been starker and my life simpler. Instead, I have been able to function as a male well enough that the outside world has no idea of how I really feel - function well enough that I fool myself sometimes. I can't fool people so easily once I get into bed with them, of course ... that's the point where truth will out (though no one knew the reasons why I found it so difficult to 'be a man') ... But along the way I've acquired a wife and family and I have responsibilities to those people. If I can't get work, it's not just me that starves, it's my wife and children. If I lose my house, they lose their house, too ..
So I really, really found it hard to read people pontificating so self-righteously about what a person had to do to be a real transsexual ... and announcing that a true TS would transition, no matter what the consequences. I have not transitioned, but I am a true TS. Thing is, I am also a spouse and a parent with a profound moral duty to those people who have placed their love and trust to me. I'm trying to figure out a way to to this without wrecking their lives. In the meantime, I am trying to stand by the vows I made at the altar. To me, being a decent human being is more important than conforming to someone else's standards of transsexual purity. And I would hope that here, of all places, we could embrace people who need support, comfort and guidance, without making them feel like second-class citizens. The world does a perfectly good job of that already ...
Quote from: stephanie_craxford on March 14, 2006, 08:19:44 PM
I have noticed that there is presently a huge amount of self analyzing going on for those who have doubts, regrets, and/or fears to do with transitioning. There are even those who have said that they have "toyed" with the idea of transitioning and I find that in itself a little odd to say the least. It is interesting that there are many different life situations being discussed that have contributed to those doubts, regrets and fears, and it seems that this is being done in order to rationalize reasons not to transition.
Personally I believe that if you are a transsexual then you must, and will transition no matter what or die trying. A transsexual would not doubt this or not transition because of fear, or the the fear of regret. I believe that to not transition would be a death sentence to a transsexual, as that person would be condemned to live their life of misery.
Steph
I absolutely dont agree with you. It is perfectly human AND safe to have doubts over every step you take in your transition. I think it is foolish and unwise not to doubt yourself and your situation in a post op life. Only in this way can you rule out every other option you might have and eventually be sure about every step you take in your life. I know of many transwoman that got depressed and even committed suicide post op.
I know its a matter of life and death. I was born a boy but live as a woman now and I can never go back and I would not know how. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever.
But I had them in the beginning. Would I be able to make it? Will people accept me? I even have had doubts about my gender identity.
To have doubt is very normal and healthy and we should encourage it and not hit eachother over the head with what you believe is a TS or not.
There are as many different transgenders as there are people... and there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to this.
I even dare say I dont identify with most transsexuals, just a small few. I have accepted that I feel different then most and that they are different from me.
We dont have to be alike, and we dont have to agree. I can easely rule out anyone that was able to live a fairly normal life as a man as not a real transsexual. Its tempting, but useless to do so. It is also disrespectfull.
I am me. That should be enough. And we are all different.
Quote from: kimberrrly on April 04, 2010, 12:29:31 PM
I think it is foolish and unwise not to doubt yourself and your situation in a post op life. Only in this way can you rule out every other option you might have and eventually be sure about every step you take in your life.
I agree with you Kimberly. We should never forget that each of us are individuals. To me transition is a process of liberating myself from expectations that didn't fit me and becoming able to live a life that ressonates with my inner sense of self on a deeper level. If we pressure people who don't comply with either of the usual gender norms to transition from one to the other then they might end up just as unfree and unhappy as before their transition.
For this reason, when people ask me about where to get HRT etc. my first response usually is to suggest they go ahead with some gender play and get in touch with a bunch of differently gendered people before they start their transition. It is a huge problem, however, that some gender therapists seem to think that persons who allow themselves to have doubts are not sincerely transsexed. They may well just be early in their discovery. That belief has some very unfortunate consequences I think.
--
Tippe
Thank you to Kimberrrly and Tippe for your comments. Another issue I think is whether we can be defined by our gender issues. For me - and this is entirely personal - I am equally defined by my status as a parent and my work as a writer. Right now, for example, I feel as though I'm finally getting a shot at reaching the level I've always dreamed of, both in professional/commercial and artistic terms. So if someone said to me, 'You can transition successfully, but only if you abandon your publishing career ... Or you can have worldwide success as an author, but you will never be able to transition,' I'm genuinely not sure which option I would take. Ideaaly, of course, I'd love both. If some passing fairy godmother said, you can be a happy, fulfilled woman who also tops the bestsellers, I'd give her a big kiss and say, 'Yes, yes, YES!!' but in the real world we have to make choices, and that sometimes means giving up one set of dreams in order to fulfil another. Any woman knows that. Think of the agonizing choices millions of women make between fulfilling themselves in business or fulfilling themselves as mothers. We can't have it all ... But what matters to me us that those choices are made with honesty, self-knowledge, responsibility and a willing acceptance of the consequences ... Whatever they may be.
Quote from: Carlita on April 04, 2010, 12:09:11 PM
So I really, really found it hard to read people pontificating so self-righteously about what a person had to do to be a real transsexual ... and announcing that a true TS would transition, no matter what the consequences. I have not transitioned, but I am a true TS. Thing is, I am also a spouse and a parent with a profound moral duty to those people who have placed their love and trust to me. I'm trying to figure out a way to to this without wrecking their lives. In the meantime, I am trying to stand by the vows I made at the altar. To me, being a decent human being is more important than conforming to someone else's standards of transsexual purity. And I would hope that here, of all places, we could embrace people who need support, comfort and guidance, without making them feel like second-class citizens. The world does a perfectly good job of that already ...
It is people like you that make me realize how important it is to find coping tools for those of us with GID who cannot for whatever reason transition. You are obviously living with GID without transitioning now and I assume have no plans to. There are growing numbers of us beginning to show ourselves from out of the woodwork no longer afraid of having our authenticity questioned because we won't leave behind everything we feel committed to in order to transition.
I'd love to compare notes. I frequent the Non-op boards on this website and would love to hear more about how you deal with your dysphoria. I have a blog linked in my signature if you'd like to see more of how I've dealt with my own issues.
Well you all have a lot to say about transition. I personally was forced by a PREDATOR to transition.
I was walking through the jungle when I noticed three little red dots on my chest. I ran as fast as I could with blasts of some sought destroying the jungle around me. Then I was caught in a net and hung upside down in a tree. Then I heard a weird voice say 'I have you now young Skywalker!' I screamed "Noooooo!" But nobody could here me! Then I saw a Predator decloak in front of me laughing. After a while of chatting we became good friends and went to have a cup of tea at a nearby village. First I had to wait until the Predator slaughtered evreybody there and hung them upside down in tree's.
To this day my invisible friend is still with me and is protecting me through my transition. Im so lucky to have a Predator as a friend. The doctor says Im crazy and there arnt any Predators. But they dont understand that Predators have good relationships with us transsexuals and they are really hard to see.
I have to say that I don't really care whether other people have doubts or not, or transition or not. That is their life and they have a right to do things their way without me sitting in judegment on them telling them how or how not to do it.
All I know is that I personally had no doubts probably mainly because I was so young and therefore gripped by the confident certainty of youth. That I first transitioned in childhood does not make me any more real than someone who does things differently, because who knows what I might have done if I were in their shoes and had lived their life.
I think it must be left up to each individual here how they self define. Let's not place any more arbitrary barriers than are needed. I self define as a woman with a Trans and Intersex past and I do so irrespective of what anyone else here may think I am, others must similarly be free to decide for themselves.
I also think perhaps we should ALL let this thread die quietly again, because whatever you may believe in private, there really is nothing much to be gained, by way of self respect, from bolstering your own ego by effectively attacking other people, who have done you no harm, and whose only "crime" was to live their lives in a different way from you.
Quote from: Tippe on April 04, 2010, 04:10:11 PMIt is a huge problem, however, that some gender therapists seem to think that persons who allow themselves to have doubts are not sincerely transsexed. They may well just be early in their discovery. That belief has some very unfortunate consequences I think.
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Tippe
That is very true. I experienced this first hand. You want to ask yourself difficult questions, but when you do some therapists sometimes get confused.
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 05, 2010, 04:10:13 AM
All I know is that I personally had no doubts probably mainly because I was so young and therefore gripped by the confident certainty of youth.
I won't share my full story in this post yet, but I will admit that when I was seventeen I had the courage to tell my high school class that I felt I should've been born a girl and that I deeply wished myself to be in an all-girls school for a feeling of belonging there. Yet I didn't have the knowledge, courage or support to move on with transition until ten years later. So far it has been an amazing ride and I've went through an enormous personal and social development in the process, which by the way ended up getting me into an all-girls study program recently ;)
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 05, 2010, 04:10:13 AM
I also think perhaps we should ALL let this thread die quietly again, because whatever you may believe in private, there really is nothing much to be gained, by way of self respect, from bolstering your own ego by effectively attacking other people, who have done you no harm, and whose only "crime" was to live their lives in a different way from you.
I found it very interesting to read your individual stories with quite different perspectives and to hear from people who underwent surgery as well as those who haven't done so. I certainly don't want to judge anyone. I just want to listen to other peoples experiences and learn from them as I might, whether they are simmilar to mine or not.
Quote from: kimberrrly on April 05, 2010, 05:36:14 AM
You want to ask yourself difficult questions, but when you do some therapists sometimes get confused.
Do they get confused, do they just want to give us more time figuring out ourselves or are we just too afraid to tell them that we see both positive and negative consequences of transition?
In my country only 2-3 people are allowed to have SRS each year, which provokes a hell of a lot of fear of rejection and anger among the transsexuals. From my point of view this is not helping anyone not the ones hiding sincere doubts, nor the ones rejected by the system without feeling personally involved in the decision. The latter eventually finds another threatment route, which means some people who might not benefit from HRT etc. continues on that path regardless of the professional opinion.
Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2010, 12:51:28 AM
I have a blog linked in my signature if you'd like to see more of how I've dealt with my own issues.
That was a very interesting blog read. You certainly have not had an easy ride. The blog reminded me of a question I saw on a reality program some years ago: "What, as a man, have you learned from being a woman?"
Although people decidedly claiming androgynous identities - see for instance norrie mAy-wellby (http://www.thescavenger.net/glbsgdq/my-journey-to-getting-a-sex-not-specified-document-86598.html (http://www.thescavenger.net/glbsgdq/my-journey-to-getting-a-sex-not-specified-document-86598.html)) and some people even get surgeries to make their body congruent with an androgynous identity (http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=1091&start=0 (http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=1091&start=0)) - something did strike me in your blogs. I hope you won't mind me asking a couple of questions?
1. You write in your entry about Transition that you discovered that you were really a gay too afraid of admitting that rather than a transsexual, yet in your recent entries you write about being married with children? How do that piece together?
2. In your entry about transition you wrote about an encounter with a bisexual woman. I understand the circumstances surrounding that encounter was very unfortunate. Given that you are apparently together with a woman now how would you imagine life had been if you had found another transpositive woman?
3. Why do you think of GID as a disorder? Isn't it rather the society, which sanctionizes a certain behaviour in one person and not another solely on the basis of their genitalia, which is disordered?
4. I get you perfectly, when you write about a need to express yourself regardless of your genital sex. I too believe a greater freedom of expression would to some extent relieve some body disphoria, however it seems to me that while the two persons I referred to beforehand decidedly expressed an androgynous identity as the identity, which fit them best you are suffering from depression and maybe OCD to contain yourself within oppressive societal norms, which do not fit you well?
5. I get you too, when you write that identity is coupled with a need to or a feeling of belonging. In fact identity is said to always develop in relation to others, the very word actually means 'same as'. I would say my gender identity is strongly coupled with the third level in Maslow's pyramid: loving and belonging. I've found female friends outside the LGBT community to be very important to me and my college activities have helped me integrate well in this regard.
I wonder which role your female friendships outside church and LGBT communities played in your life while you lived as a woman and while you decided to de-transition?
I hope I am not being too direct? Otherwise feel free to skip some of the questions. I am just eager to hear from you to get different perspectives on how people deals with gender incongruencies.
Thanks
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Tippe
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
That was a very interesting blog read. You certainly have not had an easy ride. The blog reminded me of a question I saw on a reality program some years ago: "What, as a man, have you learned from being a woman?"
Although people decidedly claiming androgynous identities - see for instance norrie mAy-wellby (http://www.thescavenger.net/glbsgdq/my-journey-to-getting-a-sex-not-specified-document-86598.html (http://www.thescavenger.net/glbsgdq/my-journey-to-getting-a-sex-not-specified-document-86598.html)) and some people even get surgeries to make their body congruent with an androgynous identity (http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=1091&start=0 (http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=1091&start=0)) - something did strike me in your blogs. I hope you won't mind me asking a couple of questions?
1. You write in your entry about Transition that you discovered that you were really a gay too afraid of admitting that rather than a transsexual, yet in your recent entries you write about being married with children? How do that piece together?
I don't ever remember explicitly saying I was gay and not trans. I did toy with the idea that perhaps I was a gay male who, due to social pressures changed to be a female, but I was just brainstorming. You know from my blog I spend a lot of time in introspection. ;)
I am married to my best friend. I wasn't looking for love, instead, we found that we were extremely compatible. It was difficult for me to develop the necessary physical attraction with sex being difficult, but I knew I loved her regardless.
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
2. In your entry about transition you wrote about an encounter with a bisexual woman. I understand the circumstances surrounding that encounter was very unfortunate. Given that you are apparently together with a woman now how would you imagine life had been if you had found another transpositive woman?
I'm not sure what you are asking. That was a very very stupid thing I did in an attempt at vile rebellion. Nothing about the experience was enjoyable and is quite atypical of my normal personality and activities. It really cannot be used to judge anything else in my life past or present.
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
3. Why do you think of GID as a disorder? Isn't it rather the society, which sanctionizes a certain behaviour in one person and not another solely on the basis of their genitalia, which is disordered?
The condition is 1) persistent, 2) causes distress, 3) cannot be explained as a societal norm - ergo mental disorder according to the way we currently define them.
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
4. I get you perfectly, when you write about a need to express yourself regardless of your genital sex. I too believe a greater freedom of expression would to some extent relieve some body disphoria, however it seems to me that while the two persons I referred to beforehand decidedly expressed an androgynous identity as the identity, which fit them best you are suffering from depression and maybe OCD to contain yourself within oppressive societal norms, which do not fit you well?
As a kid living in the south, I was expected to follow societal norms even to my extreme detriment. I've since shirked them for the most part, but it has taken time and training to allow myself the freedom to do so when it seems to go against the culture in which I was raised.
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
5. I get you too, when you write that identity is coupled with a need to or a feeling of belonging. In fact identity is said to always develop in relation to others, the very word actually means 'same as'. I would say my gender identity is strongly coupled with the third level in Maslow's pyramid: loving and belonging. I've found female friends outside the LGBT community to be very important to me and my college activities have helped me integrate well in this regard.
I wonder which role your female friendships outside church and LGBT communities played in your life while you lived as a woman and while you decided to de-transition?
I wonder too. During transition I had friends in my college classes and friends at work that were females. I also had a few male friends during this time. I don't know that they made any specific impact on me - or at least not one worthy of note.
As it stands now the female friends I have who knew me pre and post transition still respond to me as "one of the girls" even if I don't live as one. Its cool by me. In fact often when we split into guys vs girls teams in games they pull me over to their side.
Quote from: Tippe on April 07, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
I hope I am not being too direct? Otherwise feel free to skip some of the questions. I am just eager to hear from you to get different perspectives on how people deals with gender incongruencies.
Thanks
--
Tippe
Hi Interalia,
I thought this statement
'The truth behind my reasons to transition would be (...) I feel this option to become a heterosexual female is more socially acceptable than to live as a feminine gay man."' (July 22, 2009)
meant you considered yourself to actually be a repressed gay, but I understand it may be a little unfair of me to analyze your blog as a literary text, because thoughts obviously develop and change over time as we reach a deeper understanding of ourselves.
It's great to have as understanding friends as you describe and I think it's kind of cool to marry your best friend. I actually had a relationship with a "lesbian" woman some time ago myself, but while she was in it for sex I rather wanted to be deep soul mates. After breakup I decided to work through my own gender incongruency and transition before starting another relationship, because I didn't want to complicate transition further.
Regarding GID as a mental disorder it is a little bit more complicated than just classifying it as a disorder, because of the distress it causes, because research have shown that the most likely predictor of mental illness in people with gender incongruencies is how stigmatized they are by their social environment and whether they view the gender incongruency in a negative light (1)(2)(3). If being transgendered was not socially stigmatized it would not cause such distress and the wish to change the body would simply be viewed as any other aspiration for reconstructive plastic surgery, which may by some be considered a reaction to a bad body image, but certainly is not a mental disorder. Similar findings apply to people of color, who have been shown to generally - even the small children - view white skin as desired and privileged and some express bodily dysphoria too. Transcultural psychiatry has shown mental disorders such as skizophrenia to be highly overrepresented among immigrants and successive immigrant generations - contrary to what one would expect - become more ill than the previous generation, which have been suggested to be a direct effect from prejudice faced by society in the country the migrated to.
For this reason many people believe that having a gender identity different from the majority is not a disorder in itself just as having a skin color different from the majority or having an etnicity, which is visually distinguishable from the majority isn't. The conditions however seem - because of societal ostracism - to cause suffering.
One of many more reasons not to think of gender incongruencies as disorders is that by making it a disorder a behaviour, which would be perfectly normal in one person is taken as a symptom of illness in another solely on the basis of their body. That is outright discrimination. (4)
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Tippe
(1) Gender Identity Disorder: Has accepted practice caused harm? Psychiatric Times, 2009 May 19.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1415037 (http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1415037)
(2) Collective Self-Esteem as a Coping Resource for Male-to-Female Transsexuals. J Couns Psychol. 2009 Jan 1;56(1):202-209.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20046949 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20046949)
(3) From mental disorder to iatrogenic hypogonadism: Dilemmas in conceptualizing gender identity variants as psychiatric conditions. Archives of Sexual Behavior, doi: 10.1007/s10508-009-9532-4.
http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Sex%20and%20GID%20Lit%20Reviews/GID/MEYER-BAHLBURG.DSM.pdf (http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Sex%20and%20GID%20Lit%20Reviews/GID/MEYER-BAHLBURG.DSM.pdf)
(4) See www.gidreform.org (http://www.gidreform.org)
Look, I realize Steph's original post kicking-off this tread is from a few years back. Some people get upset whenever you comment on an old thread. This is the first time I'm seeing it, and the topic is timeless and universal to transsexuals, so, kindly let me say that:
That's the plain truth, Steph!
Your GID will NEVER go away.
Transition is the ONLY cure ... for very many of us.
Today is my 4-month-mark on hormone replacement therapy. I'm age 54. I'll do my legal name change this December on the advice of my gender counselor. I plan to have GRS with Dr. Marci Bowers of Trinidad, Colorado the next year. All of this ... at my age.
Younger ones, and that's most of you, be glad you're dealing with your issues at a relatively young age. You know why. I don't have to explain a thing. Finally, believe me when I say it was exponentially harder to transition in the late-1970s/early-1980s when I was the age that many of you are now. It REALLY was.
Compared to those times, everything is so very much more in your favor regarding transitioning now.
Steph, as usual, I agree with you one-hundred percent!
Take care all!
LL :)