With a damning report out this morning on the damage we've done to the oceans of the world, yet another school shooting, our assorted little wars and exploitations, I sometimes wonder if we haven't maybe had our time. The very real possiblity of global disaster looms between religious fundamentalists with nukes and global warming and, and, and ... Is our species worth saving, and if so, why?
It seems that marketing disaster is more popular than intellectual pursuits. Maybe because of the effort needed. There is a positive side of humans if you are willing to work at it.
Yes of course.
We are also beautiful, and Kind, and loving and generous, and a lot of other things.
Harm is unavoidable.
We have a responsibility to clean up after ourselves, but we can't not do harm.
What's needed is a little growing up.
A sense of responsibility.
Some disasters might do exactly that.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on February 15, 2008, 10:29:57 AM
What's needed is a little growing up.
A sense of responsibility.
Some disasters might do exactly that.
That's my feeling on it as well. Everybody goes on about 'saving the earth', but really, the earth's been around for a few billion years, and in that kind of timescale, it would not take her long to recover if we did go the way of the dinosaurs.
It's really about saving ourselves, and hopefully growing wiser in the process.
QuoteIt's really about saving ourselves, and hopefully growing wiser in the process.
Are there are some not worth saving?
Not what I meant - I mean us as in all of humankind saving ourselves before we destroy ourselves. I happen to believe that we have great potential for goodness and spirituality and all the rest, but that we are so distracted by fear and ignorance that we never achieve it. For me the ultimate tragedy would be if we destroyed ourselves before we ever realised that potential.
I don't' think that it's time for humankind to step down. We just need to step up. From what it sounds like, we'll put enough CO2 into the atmosphere within the next 100 years to create another extinction level event.
Frankly, I don't think our current civilization has the moxy to change the course of this freight train. It's going to take planning, restraint, and a lot of money. It's not in us to collectively do great things. Give it another 50 years when the threat is eminent.... then that generation might try to do something... Hopefully it won't be too late.
I've done all I can to reduce the effects of my existence here. I power my home with solar energy. And even though my transport is a big truck, I only drive it 3 or 4 times a month. I've made an effort to cut my garbage output by 50 percent and I'm ready to cut that by half.
But it really boils down to this: I'll be dead by the time we have poisoned our planet. I've done what I can. Since our society isn't actively making change, I don't know that what I've done will really make that much difference.
Cindi
Cindi: Think about it this way - nobody changes the world alone, but if everybody did the same, we'd already be much further along than we are.
As to the ELE - it's coming. I feel like you, that the slippery slope is too steep by now. But I also have hope. Some of us will survive - we always seem to. And hopefully the golden age spoken of in every tradition from Hindu and Mayan prophecy to Native American vision quests and everything inbetween has more to it than just wishful thinking.
I'm sorry, ELE?
QuoteBut I also have hope. Some of us will survive - we always seem to
I do think it is going to be a gradual fall of many small events that reduce population. A fair share maybe 1/4 of the now population will fit the amount of resources for a balanced earth. I do hope they save the cultural artifacts to pass on the art and knowledge.
Quote from: Sarah on February 15, 2008, 04:47:36 PM
I'm sorry, ELE?
Extinction Level Event. The end of the last ice age would be classed as such, because it had a global and systemic impact which caused extinction on a wide scale.
Posted on: 15 February 2008, 22:46:20
Quote from: lisagurl on February 15, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
I do think it is going to be a gradual fall of many small events that reduce population.
I suppose looking at current trends with natural disasters, that's an equally likely scenario.
Ah anyway. I shouldn't have started this thread - getting rather depressing... I think I need to stop posting when I'm down! :eusa_boohoo: getting :icon_drunk: might be a better approach...
;D
The government and world leaders will lead the human race to its destruction. Only the intellectually superior will remain to repopulate the earth. It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it. ;)
(BS answer to lighten the mood, feel free to ignore me.)
Quote from: Osiris on February 15, 2008, 11:05:46 PM
The government and world leaders will lead the human race to its destruction. Only the intellectually superior will remain to repopulate the earth. It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it. ;)
(BS answer to lighten the mood, feel free to ignore me.)
No, no! Go right ahead and lighten away!
You shouldn't have a problem surviving though... Getting caught up in global catastrophe shouldn't pose a problem for somebody who's been dismembered and then put back together.
(Thoroughly BS reply to aforementioned BS answer... :icon_poke:)
You poketh so viciously with your wit my dear. ;) I'm sure we'll both be around long after the global catastrophe to help with the noble mission of repopulation... Or at least watch and laugh. I'll protect popcorn from total annihilation if you save the soda.
i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'
Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.
we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all ;)
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 15, 2008, 11:27:53 PM
i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'
Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.
we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all ;)
R >:D
Unfortunately, I think you're right, but I have a theory that things will change enormously in over a 1000 yrs time. I believe the human race will be totally different then, it will not resemble in any way what we are like now. It would be too hard to conceivably explain the changes but the reasons will ultimately be that we will be perfect. All those negative traits that we possess now will be removed altogether, and there will be a peace that we will never know in many, many more lifetimes. I believe this is the ultimate plan. Cause you realise there is a master plan? ;D
Towards the end of the Permian period (251 million years ago), there was an ELE that killed 95 percent of all life on the earth. It was very likely greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere that caused this event. These were released by lots of volcanic activity back then. For reference, the ELE that killed the dinosaurs (the big asteroid) was significantly less lethal.
During that era, the plankton in the oceans began to store the CO2 in their tiny bodies. They died and sank to the bottom of the oceans. Since the planet was so toxic, the bottom of the oceans were anoxic (devoid of oxygen). Thus, these little dead things just piled up without decaying and the CO2 was trapped. Sediments eventually covered this goo and to make a long story short, turned it into oil. We dig up the oil, burn it, and release all that CO2. No, it is not just warming we should be worried about. We will literally be killing life on the planet if we trigger an ELE with greenhouse gases.
So, when I talk about an ELE within the next 100 years, it's very likely going to happen. We've built our entire civilization on fossil fuels. Since we discovered oil, some experts figure we have used half of the available supply.
All we have to do is to increase the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere by a factor from 2 to 4 and we will recreate the Permian-Triassic ELE.
Scary stuff ain't it?
Now.. we could blow ourselves to hell in the meantime and save the world ;)
Cindi
Holo(cene)caust part 2? Although an amusing scenario, we are more likely to reach the peak of the orbital ecentricity cycle, and begin a process of cooling again for the plannet.... thus offsetting greenhouse effects for another 100thousand years till we get dangerously close once more...
its like chicken with the climate... considering the climate was massively co2 dominated back in the permian, i doubt such climatic conditions are replicable simply by the buring of the decayed foram remains from the oil fields.... its just not enough of what was there...
|Buttercup: we havent changed 'enormously' in the last 2 thousand years, whats so special about the upcoming one thousand?
R >:D
Quote from: Osiris on February 15, 2008, 11:22:17 PM
You poketh so viciously with your wit my dear. ;) I'm sure we'll both be around long after the global catastrophe to help with the noble mission of repopulation... Or at least watch and laugh. I'll protect popcorn from total annihilation if you save the soda.
And Turkish Delight! We must save Turkish Delight!
Posted on: 16 February 2008, 10:28:02
Quote from: buttercup on February 16, 2008, 01:08:27 AM
Quote from: Rachael on February 15, 2008, 11:27:53 PM
i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'
Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.
we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all ;)
R >:D
Unfortunately, I think you're right, but I have a theory that things will change enormously in over a 1000 yrs time. I believe the human race will be totally different then, it will not resemble in any way what we are like now. It would be too hard to conceivably explain the changes but the reasons will ultimately be that we will be perfect. All those negative traits that we possess now will be removed altogether, and there will be a peace that we will never know in many, many more lifetimes. I believe this is the ultimate plan. Cause you realise there is a master plan? ;D
Rachael: We are as instinctive as sharks, and every bit as deadly, but there is one thing we humans have that, as far as we know, no other animal does. We have the capacity of choice, which allows us to deny our instincts, to rise above fear and greed and ignorance and the herd/pack mentality and act better. And usually it's because of knowledge and a broader understanding that people reach that kind of altruism.
I believe we and society can grow up. Tough yes, but possible. And like Buttercup, I do think that our, for lack of a better ter, 'spiritual evolution' is accelerating, because we are gaining that broader understanding of cause and effect, albeit slowly. The only question is which comes first - self destruction or enlightenment.
we havent changed 'enormously' in the last 2 thousand years, whats so special about the upcoming one thousand?
Yeah we have, radically in some ways, other ways, perhaps not so much, but I doubt you could take people from 2K years ago and have them function in the modern world, nor could you go back and live that life either with any ease.
When people speak of saving the world, they are really saying "saving the human race" the world goes on. And, if history is any guide its not the "smart" ones who survive those events, its the biggest, strongest, best armed and most organized packs, or tribes that do well. The "intellectually superior" will go long before the Hell's Angels do.
If it's a viral infection, I'll agree with you Tekla. But if it is man caused, I think that there will be a good share of intellectuals who will bunker in to those places which keep out the brutes. For it will be the intellectuals who have the most resources and biggest guns at their control.
But who really knows. It's fun to speculate.
Cindi
In any deal like that hunkering down in one place will be a death sentence. Mobility is everything. And, given that, a lot of their high tech toys are not going to be of any use. Like old Albert Einstein quote "I do not know how the third world war will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the fourth... rocks." So, who throws the best rock? And real basic, who is better at hand to hand combat?
Moreover, I would think that in any deal of social breakdown things like unit cohesion (the most basic standard combat effectiveness), the ability to move as a unit, to respond as a unit, command and control and the like would carry the day. Ever try to organize intellectuals? You see the problem there. Also there is a huge skill set deal, as physics is of less use than basic mechanics. Bankers are of less use than a person who can fix the water pump.
But what is most likely going to happen is Industrial Collapse. That is the fake system, propped up on an energy source that is rapidly being used up, with no replacement in sight. So, those that are the best at getting by with the least - those who have been walking not driving, those who garden rather than shop, those who do not need industrial process drugs to stay alive and those who can work as part of a small group are going to do the best.
Quote from: tekla on February 16, 2008, 01:19:01 PM
...who do not need industrial process drugs to stay alive...
Well then, I suppose my little potted organic veggie garden is kinda superfluous... unless I learn quick-like how to process soy into usable oestrogen! and yams into progesterone! It can be done, I'm sure! Anybody know how? :icon_confused2:
QuoteAnyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional
The description of a poet. ;D
Quote from: lisagurl on February 16, 2008, 02:45:52 PM
QuoteAnyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional
The description of a poet. ;D
Hey, we're usually worse! :icon_2gun:
We can choose to be 'better' though. :angel:
i can honestly say that i have made so much progress psychologically that i am now on a par with every other animal on the planet, maybe.
prior to that, i was just a regular human, i.e., emotional and destructive, and sub-par to most other animals.
however, i am not going to try and change the world.
i prefer to just accept the fact that i am mortal, and try not to be afraid of that.
-ellie
Quote from: ell on February 16, 2008, 03:19:38 PM
i can honestly say that i have made so much progress psychologically that i am now on a par with every other animal on the planet, maybe.
;D ;D ;D
I love the 'maybe'!
Cindi brings up several good points.
The Permian extiction was caused by Great Siberian Basalt Flows and the subsequent release of CO2 and CH4 (methane). 90 to 95% of all life perished.
The KT extinction (Cretaceous & Tertiary) 65 million years ago was caused by an asteroid impact in the Gulf of Mexico. The dust gave us a mini ice-age followed by runaway greenhouse warming. (The rock struck the limestone beds, vaporized them and released CO2.) 70% of all life was killed off.
The Eocene 52 million years ago had as much CO2 as what is projected to be in our atmosphere by the end of this century. Approximately 1000 ppm. We are presently at approximately 350 ppm. Wyoming was tropical as a result.
All of these are natural events. Humanity is creating another such extinction event by the release of CO2 at record levels. Since markers that tag the beginning and end of an Era are based on mass extinctions, a few geologists/biologists are suggesting that we are entering the next Era even as we speak.
And as the planet warms, the climate is changing. Just look at the droughts around the world. Lake systems drying up. We are probably seeing only the start of worldwide desertification.
In regards to oil, we don't have a hundred years. We have about 20. Evidence is building that just about every tapped oil field is reaching or has reached maximum possible production. The only major exception is Iraq. The oil fields that have not been tapped, such as ANWAR, are so remote as to make the oil inaccessable at any price.
Then there is the spectre of war. And there will be war - over oil and over water.
Humanity will probably survive, just as we have survived the ice ages that came before.
However, what we call civilization - all of it - is in serious jeopardy.
The exception is if we resort to nuclear or biological war. If that happens, then the game is probably up.
Chaunte
Once we can all see the futility of treading down the current road with fossil fuels, we'll finally agree to look into some promising nuclear technologies. Right now, you mention the word "nuclear" and people go postal. It's going to take a decade of research (probably more) to get these things from the drawing board to implementation. The good news is that at least one design can burn the waste we are stockpiling. It would be nice to get rid of that mess. You know there's enough untapped energy in that waste to power our country for over 200 years? And if we burned it, we wouldn't have to worry about how to store it anymore.
.... your solar powered tree hugger,
Cindi
Quote from: Chaunte on February 23, 2008, 09:18:50 PM
Then there is the spectre of war. And there will be war - over oil and over water.
Hell, the "resource wars" have started already - Afghanistan, Iraq, The Nigerian oilfields ...
It'll only get worse.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 24, 2008, 02:30:08 AM
... your solar powered tree hugger,
Solar powered tree huggers rock in my book.
Posted on: 24 February 2008, 03:00:23
VNV Nation - The Farthest Star...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwlsziopzmQ
Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 24, 2008, 02:30:08 AM
Once we can all see the futility of treading down the current road with fossil fuels, we'll finally agree to look into some promising nuclear technologies. Right now, you mention the word "nuclear" and people go postal. It's going to take a decade of research (probably more) to get these things from the drawing board to implementation. The good news is that at least one design can burn the waste we are stockpiling. It would be nice to get rid of that mess. You know there's enough untapped energy in that waste to power our country for over 200 years? And if we burned it, we wouldn't have to worry about how to store it anymore.
.... your solar powered tree hugger,
Cindi
We will probably see a large resurgence in nuke plants. Not only will these generate electricity, but we will probably see nuke plants dedicated to producing hydrogen for transportation. It's the only way to manufacture enough H
2 to be a viable fuel source.
We will probably see a small nuke plant set up to finish cooking the shale oil and convert it into usable petrolium. Share oil reserves need to be heated to about 500C for a number of years to finish the conversion process.
TANSTAAFL.
Chaunte
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. From Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress.
It'd be wrong to bow out, we should fight to the bitter end like everything else.
QuoteWe will probably see a large resurgence in nuke plants. Not only will these generate electricity, but we will probably see nuke plants dedicated to producing hydrogen for transportation. It's the only way to manufacture enough H2 to be a viable fuel source.
We will probably see a small nuke plant set up to finish cooking the shale oil and convert it into usable petrolium. Share oil reserves need to be heated to about 500C for a number of years to finish the conversion process.
TANSTAAFL.
That is the most probable thought hear. Fusion is still at least a century away.
Quote from: lady amarant on February 15, 2008, 03:56:05 AM
With a damning report out this morning on the damage we've done to the oceans of the world, yet another school shooting, our assorted little wars and exploitations, I sometimes wonder if we haven't maybe had our time. The very real possiblity of global disaster looms between religious fundamentalists with nukes and global warming and, and, and ... Is our species worth saving, and if so, why?
Cuz...
Ima surviva I ain't gon give up
:-p
BESIDES.
There's an infitnate amount of other planets for us to scour and ruin.
Posted on: February 26, 2008, 10:26:38 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on February 24, 2008, 07:48:53 AM
-VNV Nation - The Farthest Star...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwlsziopzmQ
That sounds exactly like The Cruxshadows...
Quote from: Annwyn on February 26, 2008, 10:26:38 AM
Cuz...
Ima surviva I ain't gon give up
:-p
BESIDES.
There's an infitnate amount of other planets for us to scour and ruin.
Ah, now there's that indominable, all-conquering Western spirit we love sooooooo much!
Quote from: lady amarant on February 26, 2008, 10:33:05 AM
Ah, now there's that indominable, all-conquering Western spirit we love sooooooo much!
Mmhmm.
And hopefully thousands of civilizations to scour and ruin:-)
I wanna blow up some UFOs! Just like a video game!
Ah! TANSTAAFL.
If only politicians, engineers and business people would consider such a concept when making decisions that affect all of us.
That 'free lunch' can often cost more than it derives in benefits, especially when long term costs of pollution and disposal are considered.
Pollution?
LOL.
If any of us really cared about that we wouldn't drive cars, use computers, or realyl have any part of the modern technological world.
I care enough to pick up some trash now and then and toss it in a nearby disposal unit, which will prolly get torn open by alley cats anyways.
:-)
We just need to keep our eyes open for a new planet is all.
Quote from: Annwyn on February 26, 2008, 12:04:13 PM
Pollution?
LOL.
If any of us really cared about that we wouldn't drive cars, use computers, or realyl have any part of the modern technological world.
I care enough to pick up some trash now and then and toss it in a nearby disposal unit, which will prolly get torn open by alley cats anyways.
:-)
We just need to keep our eyes open for a new planet is all.
Gee. And I thought I was the depressing one. You're just a ray of sunshine and innocent hope, aren't you.
^_^
I despair over the nature of the planet. But hell, nothing is going to happen. So I'll be dead before EVERYTHING is gone, it'll just mean that Brazil gets more expensive and Greenland gets more tourists.
Posted on: February 26, 2008, 12:53:12 PM
Quote from: ell on February 26, 2008, 12:52:07 PM
unless you have an army. then you can just go and steal someone else's, along with their oil.
Land and spoils won by war are not stolen, they're won over a lot of blood.
And that's really just the way the world turns.
Quote from: Annwyn on February 26, 2008, 12:04:13 PM
Pollution?
LOL.
If any of us really cared about that we wouldn't drive cars, use computers, or realyl have any part of the modern technological world.
I care enough to pick up some trash now and then and toss it in a nearby disposal unit, which will prolly get torn open by alley cats anyways.
:-)
We just need to keep our eyes open for a new planet is all.
Since pollution is a form of entropy, we can't avoid it. But we can reduce it in a variety of ways.
For example, we have a couple of vehicles we use on a regular basis. But I ride the bus to and from work and other places because I want to lessen the amount of pollution I generate AND because it is cheaper.
I have several computers in the house, but in some instances they have been upgraded, prolonging their life and reducing pollution at both the disposal end and the production end.
Being concerned about pollution and the environment doesn't mean that you have to avoid technology.
Quote from: Rowan_Danielle on February 26, 2008, 01:41:35 PM
Since pollution is a form of entropy, we can't avoid it. But we can reduce it in a variety of ways.
Reckon our atmosphere makes us a closed system then?
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 26, 2008, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: Rowan_Danielle on February 26, 2008, 01:41:35 PM
Since pollution is a form of entropy, we can't avoid it. But we can reduce it in a variety of ways.
Reckon our atmosphere makes us a closed system then?
Closed enough that we need to worry about it.
Now we HAVE made progress. In the Los Angeles area, in the 1960's, smog was a major problem. My wife grew up in the area and remembers days that she couldn't see the mountains to the north of the San Gabriel Valley. Then smog controls came into play and the problem lessened, despite a huge increase in vehicle traffic.
The problem of smog hasn't gone away though. But it is a great improvement from the 1960's.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 26, 2008, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: Rowan_Danielle on February 26, 2008, 01:41:35 PM
Since pollution is a form of entropy, we can't avoid it. But we can reduce it in a variety of ways.
Reckon our atmosphere makes us a closed system then?
It's not a closed system at all. It's a self renewing system - granted, entropy is ever-increasing, but new energy keeps being added by sunlight, and this is then used to convert pollution and waste back into usable resources - CO2 into O2 and Chlorophyl, waste material gets recycled by scavengers, etc.
The problem is that we are adding more than Earth's systems can process. The only entropy we should be concerned about is the sun burning out - and us.
Sun burning out, LOLZERS.
We'll just send a couple nukes to good ole jupiter:-)