Hello everyone. I have a random question for the night. . .
My endo just put me on injections, and I've been on pills for 6 months so far. I was on a very liberal dose of pills, but the injections seem a lot less than what I've heard from people. I'm really trying to make this post without breaking any rules here hence my massive generalizations, but bear with me here.
I know you're all going to say talk to your endo :P I have an appt with her in a month to make sure the injections go well, but I figured I would ask here to see what you thought. I'm almost certain I followed the rules, so hopefully this will work out. I guess the question I'm asking really is like, are injections going to keep working as well as pills when the dose is toward the "lower side" when my pills were at a "higher side"?
Delete the thread if I broke the rules in any way, but just figured I'd try to ask.
edit: omg ps 1000 posts I am awesome! Okay sorry :P
Injections are safer, cheaper (from a compounding pharmacy) and usually yield better results. The problem when switching is finding a dose that works for you. If you think you have a problem it might just be your dose has to be increased.
* What rules are we breaking? We're just talking about HRT, what's wrong with that?
Quote from: Beyond on March 07, 2008, 06:54:28 AM
* What rules are we breaking? We're just talking about HRT, what's wrong with that?
Nothing. Provided you don't state actual dosages or prices that are either effective for yourself or that you think might be effective for another. The Terms of Service and Site Rules state:
Quote8. The discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:
A. Advocating for or against a specific medication or combinations of medications for personal gain is strictly prohibited.
B. Discussing the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription, and self medication without a doctors care is prohibited.
C. Discussing dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.
We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.
So any dosages, etc would need to be removed.
I swear by both my IMs and by my compounding pharmacy.
I would also suggest that post-op dosages prescribed by endos who titrate someone down to post-menopausal dosages of estrogen are bad for women who have transitioned. There are sites and news-lists and experiences one can readily find on the web that indicate dosages should be maintained after surgery at much higher levels to avoid physical complications.
But, work with your doctor and provide her/him with good info that you cite and can refer them to. My doctors have been excellent in that regard when I have something to back-up what I say. (It helps to have MD opinions and evaluations. Trans-health has had some excellent links and discussions of that in the past.)
Plus, this site's Wiki is chockfull of good info and places to refer yourself to to do more research.
Nichole
kk, seems prettymuch everything was taken care of here....
Injections tend to be dosed out much more conservatively than orals do... but they do work... as everyone else said, work with your doctor on it.... Oh, and the size of the dose may SEEM low if he has you on weekly instead of biweekly injections... Weekly keeps you from having really bad peaks and valleys as compared to biweekly injections...
Quote from: LynnER on March 07, 2008, 01:36:46 PM
kk, seems prettymuch everything was taken care of here....
Injections tend to be dosed out much more conservatively than orals do... but they do work... as everyone else said, work with your doctor on it.... Oh, and the size of the dose may SEEM low if he has you on weekly instead of biweekly injections... Weekly keeps you from having really bad peaks and valleys as compared to biweekly injections...
Absolutely.
The other thing to be aware of this that IMs go to the tissue through the blood without a liver pass prior. Pills get digested; and the reason they are 'higher' dosage is to account for the inevitable loss through digestive juices and liver elimination.
N~
Quote from: LynnER on March 07, 2008, 01:36:46 PM
kk, seems prettymuch everything was taken care of here....
Injections tend to be dosed out much more conservatively than orals do... but they do work... as everyone else said, work with your doctor on it.... Oh, and the size of the dose may SEEM low if he has you on weekly instead of biweekly injections... Weekly keeps you from having really bad peaks and valleys as compared to biweekly injections...
I'm on biweekly. I was just sorta wondering. I see her in a month to see about the dosage but just sorta wanted opinions on it. I don't know a lot about injections hence my asking and attempting to not break the rules at the same time.
My personal experience was that bi-weekly was sending me into PMS symptoms by day 11 and the rebound wouldn't occur for a day or sometimes two after the next injection. 7-10 day intervals worked much better for me.
N~
Quote from: Nichole on March 07, 2008, 01:51:42 PM
My personal experience was that bi-weekly was sending me into PMS symptoms by day 11 and the rebound wouldn't occur for a day or sometimes two after the next injection. 7-10 day intervals worked much better for me.
N~
Thanks Nichole. I'll see what happens here within that time. I have a visit in the beginning of April to adjust what is needed, so I guess I'm just a little experiment for myself right now :P
Yeah, the doc may well make you do that anyhow. Mine, even though I was calling him constantly when I'd get the pre-period blues, still waited 6 mos before moving my injection intervals closer!! Rotten bugger
I bet if he'd been living with me he'd've done that a lot sooner.
N~
Quote from: Nichole on March 07, 2008, 02:04:08 PM
Yeah, the doc may well make you do that anyhow. Mine, even though I was calling him constantly when I'd get the pre-period blues still waited 6 mos before moving my injection intervals closer!! Rotten bugger
I bet if he'd been living with me he'd've done that a lot sooner.
N~
ROFL... Yeah... my ex was about ready to kill me durring those... "Quit moping and watch your tempter.... you SHOULDNT be getting so emotional... whats your problem"/me would hiss and crawl back under the covers and glare from the safety of the nest...
Hmmm...this is a tricky issue. My doctor never wanted to prescribe the injectable estrogen. Her philosophy was "you will get the same results with the pills"....and I did. It took twice as long of course, but she was correct! :)
tink :icon_chick:
You can find the equivalency pills -> injection online
The main problem with injection is as others said,
the levels tend to vary a lot which makes you
feel like crap just before the next one, especially
if the dose is too low of too spaced out.
Some doctors supplement will pills at the end of the
period, but not all.
Quote from: Keira on March 08, 2008, 12:45:46 AM
You can find the equivalency pills -> injection online
Yes, but everyone's metabolism is different. Exact correlations don't exist. That's why it's necessary to listen to your body and work with your doctor to find the dose that works for you.
FWIW I'm on injectables and my levels do NOT fluctuate wildly. I'm pretty much on an even keel all the time. In 4 years I've only experienced such fluctuations twice, and that was at the very end of my 2 week cycle and those were cured by my next shot. ;D
I mainly switched to injections because they save me money (I'm poor and parents don't pay for my hormones :P ) and that it's only once every two weeks.
As for the effects, I just hope they are the same and I'm not messing myself up by switching to injections. . . But from what everyone else says you'll get the same results eventually, just depends really. Another one of those your mileage will vary type of deal.
Quote from: shanetastic on March 08, 2008, 02:51:05 AM
I mainly switched to injections because they save me money (I'm poor and parents don't pay for my hormones :P ) and that it's only once every two weeks.
As for the effects, I just hope they are the same and I'm not messing myself up by switching to injections. . . But from what everyone else says you'll get the same results eventually, just depends really. Another one of those your mileage will vary type of deal.
I started on oral estradiol in July 2002 and I have been on injectables since 2003.
I will surrender my injectables when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers.
Thank-you.
Wing Walker
Are injections already for someone who's on the feet all the time, and a very active person too in sports?
I mean, injecting the gluteus maximus with medication and then working it to failure several times a week, not to mention constant biking, idk how long the meds would last>.>
I imagine an experienced doctor could better answer that question, Annwyn.
Although one would suspect that a higher metabolic rate would cause a faster absorption from the muscle than would a less high metabolic rate. I suspect that dosages would need to be monitored closely and adjusted to fit one's individual circumstances.
Well, that's what most good docs will do anyhow.
N~
Quote from: shanetastic on March 06, 2008, 09:24:38 PM
Are injections going to keep working as well as pills when the dose is toward the "lower side" when my pills were at a "higher side"?
Ask your endo to explain this, since I don't really know the mechanisms behind it all. From what I understand, pills produce a higher estrone (weaker form of estrogen) to estradiol (stronger form) ratio in the body, while injections do the opposite. This makes it hard to equate a pill regime to an injection regime; it varies widely depending on the end user, so in a sense it's pretty difficult to say one is on the "higher" side and one of the "lower." What might intuitively seem like a lower dosage may not be at all (especially when considering different forms of injectable estrogen, what is delivered in micrograms rather than milligrams, etc.). Lots of variables.
Lia
someone kidnap an endo and make him/her come on here fulltime for 3 weeks to satisfy all our questions before release!
Just to throw another idea out there...
My physician has me on transdermal patches instead of injections and pills. The patches do the same thing as the injections - bypass some of the damage to the liver. The advantage over the injections is that they are painless. Plus, the blood-serium levels of estradiol through the patches further reduce the potential for blood clots.
Chaunte
Injections and patches are about the same...
One can cause bad rashes and skin conditions, the other has a slight risk of infection due to the needle... and if injected directly into a vein could seriously harm you...
Diffrence between the two.... COST... Injections cost less than patches... and generaly cost less than pills or tabs...
Remember, when working out your HRT setup... consider the pros and cons of what ever your doing... There is no one right way... just what your willing to risk.
Quote from: Chaunte on March 09, 2008, 12:28:33 PM
Just to throw another idea out there...
My physician has me on transdermal patches instead of injections and pills. The patches do the same thing as the injections - bypass some of the damage to the liver. The advantage over the injections is that they are painless. Plus, the blood-serium levels of estradiol through the patches further reduce the potential for blood clots.
I started on patches, but adherency quickly became an issue. Not to mention how freakin' expensive they are. So I switched to injectables. One shot every 14 days and that's it. Not pills to remember to take and nothing to fall off. Works for me.
Quote from: Annwyn on March 08, 2008, 01:38:04 PM
someone kidnap an endo and make him/her come on here fulltime for 3 weeks to satisfy all our questions before release!
LOL
I'm actaully thinking about becoming one
Can someone list the various forms of injectable hormones for me please?
I have only ever been on pills and patches for over 10 years and think injectables may work better. In the U.K injectables are not widely used but I feel I need to try them to see if they will improve my fat re-distribution.
Speaking of fat redistribution as Keira was suggesting a while back that the fat in the case of a trans person will tend to remain behind the stomach. Hey, I don't want to go around looking like a pregnant Hobbit. Anyway Keira suggested exercise, especially walking. I have been walking about a mile or so every day and it is already showing results. Good I just want to have a normal waist again.
Cindy
Can someone list the various forms of injectable hormones for me please?
I have only ever been on pills and patches for over 10 years and think injectables may work better. In the U.K injectables are not widely used but I feel I need to try them to see if they will improve my fat re-distribution.
Can a list be made of the various injectable hormones that are presently available? Or what individials find works best for them and what they might recommend?
Quote from: LynnER on March 09, 2008, 08:29:01 PM
the other has a slight risk of infection due to the needle... and if injected directly into a vein could seriously harm you...
Exactly why my doctor refused me injections.
I'm happy he did actually, as I don't like the idea of my E levels fluctuating so much between injections. I've never had a problem with patches falling off, or rashes, etc., so I really love 'em ;)
~Kate~
I been on injectables for the past four years and haven't felt that much of a fluctuation between shots. I may sometimes have lower moods a couple of days before injection time. But maybe that just as well to take a break from my silly sense of humor for those couple of ays.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on March 25, 2008, 03:48:44 PM
I been on injectables for the past four years and haven't felt that much of a fluctuation between shots. I may sometimes have lower moods a couple of days before injection time. But maybe that just as well to take a break from my silly sense of humor for those couple of ays.
Cindy
I would still like the opportunity to try them..
Quote from: LynnER on March 09, 2008, 08:29:01 PMOne can cause bad rashes and skin conditions, the other has a slight risk of infection due to the needle... and if injected directly into a vein could seriously harm you...
Don't know how I missed this.
This is another lie doctor tell you. Again they believe that we will all become addicts if given syringes. Can you say stereotype?
When you are taught how to inject, one of the steps is to aspirate, that is to pull
back on the plunger, before injecting. If you are in a blood vessel (artery or vein) you will see blood in the syring during aspiration. You simply pull out and try again. This isn't rocket science folks. Some doctors are old school and simply won't trust anyone with syringes. Despite the fact they are very safe, effective (good results ing eneral) and inexpensive (from a compounding pharmacy).
Don't believe the myths and lies out there. me-health care worker.
Edit: Also wanted to add my experiences over the last 4 years of using injectables are the same as Cindy's.
Hi Beyond
Me just a social worker, just wanted to thank you for the validation. Well I was a social worker for twenty year before I got retired. Since I am the type that just can't stop doing stuff, especially working with people I just simply went out and created my own work. My partner and I have opened and run a drop in center and support group for Trans folks. We will also be working with Trans girls that work the streets.
Cindy
Can someone list the various forms of injectable estrogen hormones for me please?
Quote from: Berliegh on March 26, 2008, 04:42:37 AM
Can someone list the various forms of injectable estrogen hormones for me please?
At the risk of having my post redacted AGAIN:
First you have to know that estradiol valerate (bioidentical 17 beta estradiol) vials come in various strengths (admin I said strengths, not dosages, those are 2 different things!):
10mg/ml
20mg/ml
40mg/ml
Most folks I know use the 40mg/ml. This is because we need higher doses than natal folks. Can't really say anything else about dosages without being censored. >:(
You can get EV (estrogen valerate) from either a commercial pharmacy or a compounding pharmacy. I'm not sure how things work in the UK. Here in the US commercial pharmarcies charge an arm and a leg for a vial of EV. Compounding pharmacies on the other hand charge MUCH less. But BOTH require a prescription.
I wish I could say more, but the powers that be won't allow that.
Quote from: Beyond on March 26, 2008, 06:49:27 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on March 26, 2008, 04:42:37 AM
Can someone list the various forms of injectable estrogen hormones for me please?
At the risk of having my post redacted AGAIN:
First you have to know that estradiol valerate (bioidentical 17 beta estradiol) vials come in various strengths (admin I said strengths, not dosages, those are 2 different things!):
10mg/ml
20mg/ml
40mg/ml
Most folks I know use the 40mg/ml. This is because we need higher doses than natal folks. Can't really say anything else about dosages without being censored. >:(
I wish I could say more, but the powers that be won't allow that.
So in the whole of the U.S.A there is only ONE injectable form of HRT?
It seems strange as there are a lot of different types of pills and patches available...
Quote from: Berliegh on March 26, 2008, 08:39:34 AMSo in the whole of the U.S.A there is only ONE injectable form of HRT?
It seems strange as there are a lot of different types of pills and patches available...
No, but it is by far the most common. And in my opinion the best. There are different brands and what-not, but EV is EV no matter what name the manufacturer calls it. By the way most patches use ...... 17 beta estradiol, which is what EV is. Pills that are bioidentical use.... 17 beta estradiol. In contrast "conjugated estrogen" is NOT bioidentical, in fact they are made from horse estrogens. The most common brand name (of conjugated estrogen) is derived from the following words:
PREgnant MARes uRINe.
So the lesson here is to know what kind of estrogen are you getting. Are you getting bioidentical 17 beta estradiol (identical to human that is) estrogen OR something else (horse)?
Better stop for now......
Hi Lynner.
QuoteLynnER would hiss and crawl back under the covers and glare from the safety of the nest...
"Hee, hee, hee." Coincidence? I have this little imaginary critter, looks like Lady Amarant's pussy cat avatar. His name is Sparkly. He's nice little critter, but when things get tense he goes and hides under his rock, then all you can see, is these two little eyeballs blinking in the darkness under the rock.
Sparkly and Cindy
Quote from: Beyond on March 26, 2008, 09:15:20 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on March 26, 2008, 08:39:34 AMSo in the whole of the U.S.A there is only ONE injectable form of HRT?
It seems strange as there are a lot of different types of pills and patches available...
No, but it is by far the most common. And in my opinion the best. There are different brands and what-not, but EV is EV no matter what name the manufacturer calls it. By the way most patches use ...... 17 beta estradiol, which is what EV is. Pills that are bioidentical use.... 17 beta estradiol. In contrast "conjugated estrogen" is NOT bioidentical, in fact they are made from horse estrogens. The most common brand name (of conjugated estrogen) is derived from the following words:
PREgnant MARes uRINe.
So the lesson here is to know what kind of estrogen are you getting. Are you getting bioidentical 17 beta estradiol (identical to human that is) estrogen OR something else (horse)?
Better stop for now......
Yea, we have that over here in tablet form called 'Premarin'. It was the first one I started on in 1997.
What I'm really looking for a list of 'injectable HRT' that may be available i.e..... 1. 2. 3. etc...
Regarding Sparkly and Cindy, well I love playing imaginary games always have, wrote six children's books. I might be Transexual but but terminal brain numbness I am not. Now this radio station CLBQ will be returning to it's normal broadcasting. ;D ;D ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Beyond on March 25, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: LynnER on March 09, 2008, 08:29:01 PMOne can cause bad rashes and skin conditions, the other has a slight risk of infection due to the needle... and if injected directly into a vein could seriously harm you...
This is another lie doctor tell you. Again they believe that we will all become addicts if given syringes. Can you say stereotype?
Yes, that's just ignorance. ANYONE can overdose on patches or pills easily. It's not like syringes is they only possible way to become addicts.
-
Here's a famous quote from Freud "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
Syringes are often given the notion of being used to inject hard drugs when you see people abusing drugs. But syringes aren't only used for those purposes which doctors and others may relate too.
Same thing with a cigar. A Cigar is just filled up tobocca BUT it's often given off as a symbol of power, wealth and confidence unconsciously. Most people when smoking a cigar INTEND to give off a image.
-PS.. if your going to use needles- DON'T Share them and use clean needles always!
I give up......
Quote from: Annwyn on March 28, 2008, 07:05:01 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on March 28, 2008, 04:51:21 AM
I give up......
That's the spirit. ::)
Well I wasn't able to access the information here...
I meant give up with the notion of trying to access a list of injectable HRT's...
I gave you the important information you need. Anything that's made with 17 beta estradiol will do. It's bioidentical, not conjugated, and IMO is the best for you.
I'm sorry I can't spoonfeed this anymore without being zapped by the moderators here. Talking about dosages and specific brands will get you in trouble here. I won't go there.
Quote from: Beyond on March 29, 2008, 12:39:54 AM
I gave you the important information you need. Anything that's made with 17 beta estradiol will do. It's bioidentical, not conjugated, and IMO is the best for you.
I'm sorry I can't spoonfeed this anymore without being zapped by the moderators here. Talking about dosages and specific brands will get you in trouble here. I won't go there.
I think we are on a different wavelenth here...
I only wanted the basic information as to how many types of injectable HRT was commercially available. I wasn't asking for dosages....
There's two types of injectables,
The first is,
Estradiol Valerate EV (which is not exactly like Beta estradiol, since the valeric acid
needs to be cleaved off before the body can use the estradiol, but this is
very easy for the body to do and thus there is little practical difference in effect
and risk)
I suppose they use it instead of injecting estradiol because the cracking of the
valeric acid is not all done at the same time which probably provides less of
a peak effect as putting estradiol into your bloodstream.
The second one is,
Estradiiol Cypionate (10 times more concentrated and longer to metabolise) EC
(EC because its so concentrated and longer lasting, has a higher propensity to be
abused by TS since its possible to get very very high serum levels of estrogen with it).
EC is also dirt cheap btw. At normal levels, it would actually be a better choice than
EV, but since its so often misused, doctor prever to give EV.
Quote from: Keira on April 01, 2008, 02:30:41 AM
There's two types of injectables,
The first is,
Estradiol Valerate EV (which is not exactly like Beta estradiol, since the valeric acid
needs to be cleaved off before the body can use the estradiol, but this is
very easy for the body to do and thus there is little practical difference in effect
and risk)
I suppose they use it instead of injecting estradiol because the cracking of the
valeric acid is not all done at the same time which probably provides less of
a peak effect as putting estradiol into your bloodstream.
The second one is,
Estradiiol Cypionate (10 times more concentrated and longer to metabolise) EC
(EC because its so concentrated and longer lasting, has a higher propensity to be
abused by TS since its possible to get very very high serum levels of estrogen with it).
EC is also dirt cheap btw. At normal levels, it would actually be a better choice than
EV, but since its so often misused, doctor prever to give EV.
Thanks so much Keira. I wonder why it took so long for someone to answer my question?
[/quote]
Thanks so much Keira. I wonder why it took so long for someone to answer my question?
[/quote]
Isn't she wonderful ? If nobody else knows, Keira Knows! :)
Berliegh, I think nobody replied because they either don't know or are timid about if they can answer you. I didn't answer you because I don't know, If I did I would have. ;) The only one that I knew was the estradoil valerate.
Karla B