Good afternoon, my darlings.
I've been wondering...
Okay, I assume that the standard 'sie, hir, hym, they, their, etc' aren't normally used in spoken language.
Or at least not used by many.
Most peeps one comes in contact with are going to use one or the other - he or she.
So, given the choice only between he or she which would you prefer to be referred to as?
A he or a she?
Okay, for this - don't take into account your passability as one or the other.
Just if given the choice, would you rather be called he or she?
It doesn't really bother me except in situations where it can be a problem in which case he or him is best.
Edit: I really need to read everything first and I still did not give a straight answer :P.
I usually just use he. It seems good enough...for now.
I prefer non gendered pronouns, zie or sie, etc... however most people in the day to day world don't use them, or even know about them. I despise being referred to w/ male pronouns, especially being called sir or mister, so female pronouns are better.... but they don't feel quite right either.
Z
I prefer female, but that only happens with strangers >:D
I don't have a preference. The words don't mean much to me anymore. People call me he in real life, but some people call me she online. Either one is just a word and I'm the one who decides what it means, which is nothing.
Quote from: Rebis on March 07, 2008, 06:52:11 PM
I don't have a preference. The words don't mean much to me anymore. People call me he in real life, but some people call me she online. Either one is just a word and I'm the one who decides what it means, which is nothing.
I agree with Rebis, I have no preference to "he or she", most people call me "she" IRL.. I prefer 'they' but I'm lighthearted normally and not picky. I only start taking offense when someone deliberately calls me 'she' after knowing I don't prefer it, usually to make a point to show they don't believe my gender identity exists... (and unfortunately this has indeed happened)
I have some people who revert to calling me he just because it's a habit or tradition. They went with 'she' for a while then it just went away. I haven't have people intentionally screw with me yet. When they do, they should be careful because depending upon my mood, I can be a swine.
I'm like Zythyra. I really hate being called he, and I'm fairly feminine, but I don't feel like I'm a woman. Still, She is a matter of convenience.
He, nothing worse than "she" ahhhhhhhhhhhh!
I don't mind either.
Quote from: Vivian on March 07, 2008, 07:22:59 PM
I'm like Zythyra. I really hate being called he, and I'm fairly feminine, but I don't feel like I'm a woman. Still, She is a matter of convenience.
You look like a she.
i couldn't give a castlemaine, both are meaningless applied to me. Out of the two I would choose 'he' cos 'she' would mean I am being put up with and pandered to. I do not look all too she.
Damn you! That makes sense.
One funny thing, when people use male pronouns for me, I always feel as though they're talking about someone else, not me.
Z
If I am wearing feminine attire I prefer being addressed with feminine pronouns, but when I am dressed in male attire I expect that people will use masculine pronouns. I would not mind if someone referred to me as "she" when I am in male attire, but I would not expect it, and I take no offense to being referred to as "he". My gender is fluid, so I do not mind the pronouns being fluid as well.
In a somewhat related vein, there is a discussion on the TG Forum about "A Man in a Dress" and how John (or Jane) Q Public might address such a person. I know that I do not pass very well as a woman and am generally perceived as male no matter what my attire. Still, when a person is wearing a dress or a skirt (with the exception of a man in kilts), I think it is only polite to use feminine pronouns. When a person is wearing pants the situation is more flexible--if the individual is attempting (successfully or not) to appear male, masculine pronouns are appropriate, on the other hand if the individual is attempting to appear female, feminine pronouns are appropriate. For those of us who are trying to appear androgynous, it is probably best to avoid pronouns or any gender specific references.
Quote from: Zythyra on March 07, 2008, 10:28:03 PM
One funny thing, when people use male pronouns for me, I always feel as though they're talking about someone else, not me.
Z
Actually, I feel that way about "Sir" and "Mister".
It always makes me want to look around for an older gentleman.
Quote from: sd on March 08, 2008, 12:46:09 AM
Actually, I feel that way about "Sir" and "Mister".
It always makes me want to look around for an older gentleman.
When I'm called Mr _____, I think that they must want to talk to my father.... btw I still feel this way and I just had my 52nd. :P
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on March 08, 2008, 08:31:49 AM
Quote from: sd on March 08, 2008, 12:46:09 AM
Actually, I feel that way about "Sir" and "Mister".
It always makes me want to look around for an older gentleman.
When I'm called Mr _____, I think that they must want to talk to my father.... btw I still feel this way and I just had my 52nd. :P
Z
Just another thing to not look forward to. ::)
Happy belated B-day Zythyra.
Quote from: Rebis on March 07, 2008, 09:19:20 PM
You look like a she.
Thanks! Rather she than he. I'm starting to wonder about the whole androgyne thing because I like appearing as a female, and more often than not I pass somehow as female. So, maybe I'm just trans :-\
Quote from: Zythyra on March 07, 2008, 10:28:03 PM
One funny thing, when people use male pronouns for me, I always feel as though they're talking about someone else, not me.
I'll look around to see if someone else has entered the conversation, or see who they are pointing to, even when it could only be me. I'm just not used to it anymore.
Quote from: Vivian on March 08, 2008, 01:56:12 PM
Thanks! Rather she than he. I'm starting to wonder about the whole androgyne thing because I like appearing as a female, and more often than not I pass somehow as female. So, maybe I'm just trans :-\
It could be that you just prefer a female body or maybe at this time of your life it works for you.
As long as you are comfortable, and that seems to be the case, enjoy it, it will work itself out in time.
"she" because if someone saw me and said "he", I would wonder about their eyesight. I might want to look androgynous, but in reality, I look female.
When I use pronouns, I generally go with the one that matches the person's physical sex unless I know they prefer otherwise. But that goes back to being pregendered. As far as I knew (growing up), you're gender was defined by your sex. I didn't know there was a difference between boys and girls other than our bodies. I thought (and really, I still feel like it should be this way even though I know it isn't) that all people are exactly the same, regardless of sex. So if I use the wrong one, don't be upset with me. :)
I might be slightly offended if someone calls me "ma'am" though...(makes me want to say, "just how old do you think I am?")
Definitely 'she', and definitely not 'it'!!!
Never have been called 'it' myself, but a friend recounted a story told her by a colleague at work who discussed seeing a transwoman at the local pub and called her an 'it'!!! Bad Form!!! >:(
Quote from: buttercup on March 08, 2008, 07:33:38 PM
Definitely 'she', and definitely not 'it'!!!
Never have been called 'it' myself, but a friend recounted a story told her by a colleague at work who discussed seeing a transwoman at the local pub and called her an 'it'!!! Bad Form!!! >:(
In their defense, many people just do not know, they have little clue about what our world is like. Most probably don't want to know.
In their eyes, there is only male and female, anything else is an "it" because it's an unknown.
I will admit, they still could have handled it better.
Sometimes, on the phone or when seen from the back, I am addressed as a woman. These days, I beam when that happens. When I was young, it scared me, and was one of the reasons I grew a beard. I would be surprised if anyone, seeing my full beard addressed me other than 'he', regardless of who I am within.
One advance on the androgynous front is that my teen-aged, college-accepted daughter has changed her mind about my red shoes, and thinks, now, I should bring them to Orlando next week. Orlando? My wife and I will be married 20 years the first day of Spring, and three daughters, one son-in-law, and three grandchildren will meet theree to enjoy being together in the parks, um Gottes willen.
The problem is the finestride I've been taking to grow breasts and shrink the prostate hasn't been working fast enough, so my kidney function has been impaired. Thursday, they catheterized me, which makes me painfully aware of my male appendage and severely cramps my style. I hope the doctors decide to remove the catheter soon, and, if they decide to operate, can let me go to Orlando intact. Nero, emperor and master questioner, I need some of your courage. And happy birthday Zythyra, you youngster!
Simone
Quote from: Simone Louise on March 09, 2008, 06:15:07 PM
The problem is the finestride I've been taking to grow breasts and shrink the prostate hasn't been working fast enough, so my kidney function has been impaired. Thursday, they catheterized me, which makes me painfully aware of my male appendage and severely cramps my style. I hope the doctors decide to remove the catheter soon, and, if they decide to operate, can let me go to Orlando intact. Nero, emperor and master questioner, I need some of your courage. And happy birthday Zythyra, you youngster!
Simone
Thanks for the birthday wishes Simone! I hope they remove the catheter soon, that sounds painful!
Z
One of my grandaughters asked her mother how old she'll be on her next birthday. Her mother said four, and held up four fingers. "I don't think so." she said. "That's too many!"
Simone
Quote from: Simone Louise on March 09, 2008, 08:53:26 PM
One of my grandaughters asked her mother how old she'll be on her next birthday. Her mother said four, and held up four fingers. "I don't think so." she said. "That's too many!"
Simone
LOL, that's great! OTOH, regarding getting older, my dad says it beats the alternative... ;)
Z
Simone: ouch. I hope it gets better sooner rather than later.
On a lighter note, congratulations on the upcoming wedding anniversary. :icon_flower:
Nfr
i don't really have a preference. Usually i get called he, although lately i get a fair bit of she mixed in.
Quote from: Zythyra on March 09, 2008, 09:13:00 PM
OTOH, regarding getting older, my dad says it beats the alternative... ;)
Z
Amen to that.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on March 10, 2008, 06:35:24 AM
Simone: ouch. I hope it gets better sooner rather than later.
On a lighter note, congratulations on the upcoming wedding anniversary. :icon_flower:
Nfr
Thanks for the congrats, and yes I'm hurting, but I have to keep things in perspective.
The youngest daughter has been battling chronic daily migraines for 7 years, and they've gotten worse this her senior high school year. She's applied to 8 good colleges, and heard back from 3 so far--all 3 acceptances. But the high school may not let her graduate because she's missed so much time. Lately, she's had thoughts of suicide, so her therapist recommended a three-week sick leave.
My wife had her car totaled in a seven-car pileup in December (she was an innocent bystander caught by another driver's road rage). She was in the hospital 3 days, still has daily pain and goes for regular physical therapy. And that's just my house. Reading these boards, my heart aches for all the pain our friends write of.
Fortunately, I caught part of a Prairie Home Companion's joke show yesterday. A sample: The thieves who stole a Van Gogh painting from the museum were quickly nabbed in their VW bus, because they didn't have enough Monet to buy gas to make the Van Gogh.
Oh, and if you liked the story about the granddaughter, when the youngest daughter was that age, she finished her nightly prayers saying: "God is two." After her mother corrected her, the daughter said, "But I had a birthday; God must have had one, too."
Thankful for androgyne humor,
Simone
I don't really care what people call me. Pronouns are just words, and completely meaningless to me. Rarely does the speaker attach meaning to a pronoun. Although on rare occasions someone DOES attach meaning to a pronoun, and it is usually in a rude way, and I dislike that (such as pointedly calling someone a he when they are wearing a dress, or pointedly when looking masculine). Sometimes however, someone will attach meaning to a pronoun in a way I like (when I hold a door for someone like a nice gentleman and they comment on it, or when someone uses a female pronoun when mentioning my hair or style). I also like when someone uses a gender neutral pronoun because it shows they are being respectful (but I don't expect people to always be respectful).
I don't like "Sir" but that's because I don't like stuffy things, has nothing to do with gender (although it sometimes does entertain me if I am looking very disheveled and get called sir, because it is just so way off). Most often I am called my male pronouns, which is fine, it's convenient. It makes me smile whenever someone calls me a she. Ma'am is too stuffy, but it still gets a smile. On the rare occasion I hear a gender neutral, I'll give them a nod of approval.
I REALLY love when someone calls me a female pronoun from behind, and when I turn around they quickly correct themselves with a male pronoun, because that is EXACTLY what I am going for: both. You have no idea how often my wife and I are confused for being two lesbians when viewed from behind. On the net I get called an even mix of pronouns (although probably more female than male, most of the male pronouns come from people that are convinced that females don't play video games, even though my wifes character is usually standing right next to mine).
I personally try and call everyone 'they'. It is gender neutral, even though it isn't exactly proper grammer. Often times I will type out she/he. On rare occasions I'll think to use an actual gender neutral pronoun, but that tends to confuse folks.
I do however, call EVERYONE dude. I do not mean it as a gender based pronoun. Everyone is a dude. My mom is a dude. Just pretend I'm a surfer and it's all fine.
I hope things get better for you all soon, Simone!!! :icon_bunch:
Quote from: Kir on March 10, 2008, 06:21:17 PM
I personally try and call everyone 'they'. It is gender neutral, even though it isn't exactly proper grammer.
I do however, call EVERYONE dude. I do not mean it as a gender based pronoun. Everyone is a dude. My mom is a dude. Just pretend I'm a surfer and it's all fine.
I think I read somewhere that "they" used to be proper grammar (instead of using "he or she" or "one"), but when they started printing text books, only boys went to school, so they always used "he". :-\ Wish I knew where I read that...
I knew a guy who called everyone "son". Male, female, it didn't matter. We were all "son". :) Personally, I call everyone "hon" or "dear" or "sweetheart"...but I'm southern. ;)
Quote from: Jaimey on March 11, 2008, 06:55:23 PM
I hope things get better for you all soon, Simone!!! :icon_bunch:
Thank you, Jaimey, dear. I got some answers today. My urologist has scheduled me for an operation next Thursday (20 March--a 20th anniversary present to my wife?), then a night or two in the hospital, some recovery time, and then, he says I should be good for another 68 years. My wife points out the cardiologist only said I was good for another 30. In the meantime, we'll be celebrating the forthcoming anniversary with kids and grandkids in Orlando this weekend.
I won't be posting from the hospital, but I will be back as soon as I am able, ready to continue the journey to--where are we going?
When her folks sent my 8-year-old grandmother north for schooling, they taught her a poem containing the lines: "Isabelle Adams is my name; Darien, Georgia is my station." And one of my daughters lives in northern Georgia and teaches in Chattanooga. That's the extent of my Southern connection. But it's a pleasure to follow your postings.
Simone
Get well soon Simone.
Quote from: Jaimey on March 11, 2008, 06:55:23 PM
I think I read somewhere that "they" used to be proper grammar (instead of using "he or she" or "one"), but when they started printing text books, only boys went to school, so they always used "he". :-\ Wish I knew where I read that...
The Oxford English Dictionary describes this gender-neutral third person singular use of
they like it was still happening ('often used...', not 'formerly'). Their examples date from 1526 through 1874, but that doesn't necessarily mean much -- the most recent example for the third person plural meaning is from 1909. In other words, I'd say it has been 'proper grammar' for the entire Modern English era, and still is.
Nfr
Singular they is still correct usage, however most people look at us funny when we use it. (No, I'm not talking of myself in plural, my partner also uses pronoun they :) )
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on March 12, 2008, 07:13:33 AM
Singular they is still correct usage, however most people look at us funny when we use it. (No, I'm not talking of myself in plural, my partner also uses pronoun they :) )
Z
I've always used singular "they". It's hard being right all the time...(just kidding :laugh:)
We'll be thinking about you, Simone! Get well soon!!
Yeah, get well, Simone, or we'll find you and rough you up. >:(
Rebis - the evil androgyne
Just don't call me late for dinner and everyone will get out of this alive.
Thank you, Jaimey, and thank you, Rebis. I guess part of this journey is learning to be vulnerable and to accept support. But I'm not going to cry. ;) Even if you beat me up!
How about I make you each a nice cup of tea when this is all over. And a bit to nosh.
Let's form a big circle and hold hands,
Simone
Let's form a big circle and hold hands,
Oh god, do we have to sing Kumbaya too? I swear the next person who starts singing Michael Row The Boat Ashore is going to need a lifevest.
Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 10:48:21 PM
Oh god, do we have to sing Kumbaya too? I swear the next person who starts singing Michael Row The Boat Ashore is going to need a lifevest.
Should I toss in the shark bait before or after?
Chum the waters NOW!
Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 10:48:21 PM
Let's form a big circle and hold hands,
Oh god, do we have to sing Kumbaya too? I swear the next person who starts singing Michael Row The Boat Ashore is going to need a lifevest.
Hey, I see a big circle and I'm ready to play some funky Balkan tune in 11/8 or 7/8 for a circle dance ;) ;D
Quote from: Simone Louise on March 12, 2008, 10:33:30 PM
How about I make you each a nice cup of tea when this is all over. And a bit to nosh.
A nosh, now you're speaking my language... some sesame bagels maybe would be nice :D
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on March 13, 2008, 07:16:21 AM
Hey, I see a big circle and I'm ready to play some funky Balkan tune in 11/8 or 7/8 for a circle dance ;) ;D
In the mixolydian mode, preferably.
Nfr
Quote from: Zythyra on March 13, 2008, 07:16:21 AM
A nosh, now you're speaking my language... some sesame bagels maybe would be nice :D
Z
Bagels are good. Do you know schnecken? For the uninitiated, the name means snail, and they are a form of cinnamon/pecan roll. I've a nice recipe out of the Settlement Cookbook.
As for the circle, how about the Shaker hymn, 'Tis a gift to be simple? I'm not dancing until the catheter comes out. I'm a pretty clumsy dancer, anyway, though folk dancing reminds me of an early androgenous moment. I was learning square dancing after school, and most weeks took the female role because we had unequal gender numbers. I don't know why I was chosen. The culmination was a performance for the PTA. In the middle of the performance, I suddenly reverted to the role I had learned, and then to turn red as a beet.
Simone
Quote from: tekla on March 12, 2008, 10:48:21 PM
Let's form a big circle and hold hands,
Oh god, do we have to sing Kumbaya too?
I went to Camp Kumbaya. Seriously.
Quote from: Zythyra on March 13, 2008, 07:16:21 AM
Hey, I see a big circle and I'm ready to play some funky Balkan tune in 11/8 or 7/8 for a circle dance ;) ;D
That reminds me of a warm up we played in drumline called 5-7-10. It was my favorite, so bring on the 11/8 and 7/8!
We played "Simple Gifts" for a half time show in band too...weird.
For me it kind of depends. Online I get read as male a lot because that's the default, and there's this little stab of joy when someone refers to me with a male pronoun even though I know it's nothing to do with me, it's just some random assumption. But then I feel I have to correct people's understanding that I'm a guy so as not to re-enforce the male normativity of some environments. Female pronouns just bleh me out. Sometimes a person will refer to me as "she" or correct someone else when they "he" me, and I don't feel able to address that because I know they're atually trying to help and hold space, even though I die a little bit every time. I like it when someone in the know "he"s me, because they're affirming that element of my nature.
Mostly I'm lying low in Sheville for the moment. I feel like I ought to use my preferred epicine terms "ze" and "hir" a bit more, but it's only relatively recently that the internal gender struggle has been a public thing and it feels precious to start insisting on it. Especially since a lot of the time I don't feel like a he, a she or a ze, I just feel like an it.
Simple Gifts is OK, perhaps one of the best American songs ever, which is why its so central to the Ballet for Martha - better known, as Appalachian Spring.
Quote from: tekla on May 21, 2008, 07:21:01 PM
Simple Gifts is OK, perhaps one of the best American songs ever, which is why its so central to the Ballet for Martha - better known, as Appalachian Spring.
I liked that one a lot. My friend Davis shred some serious xylophone on that song.
I look he so thats what i expect
sometimes people have called me she which I love although If they apologize and correct themselves i tell them i'm happy to be called she
not long ago i was doing crafty stuff with some girls (jewelery making / beading i think) and we were talking when one of the girls asked "are you sure your a guy?"
that seemed weird but felt great
I turned it into a joke and some were laughing uncontrollably at my response