Is selfishness characterized by desires or actions? Or, do both play a part in it?
I consider myself to be a selfish person, primarily because of my desires. I might not always act on them, but they are at the forefront of my thoughts more often than selfless desires.
My wife doesn't consider me to be selfish, because a selfish person would act on their selfish desires.
She said she'd stay with me no matter what, even if I chose to have SRS. I asked her what she wanted, and she told me she wanted me to be happy. This, to me, give me the oppotunity to be truly selfish.
So, how would you all define "selfishness?"
I think selfishness is an animal instinct, and insofar as desires, we're all selfish. It's by going against that instinct and putting the wants/needs of others ahead of our own that we become selfless, because the action of selflessness precedes the realisation that by helping to satsify the needs and desires of others we satisfy our own as well. A compassionate society that cares for the less fortunate amongst them and share resources more equitably will almost certainly have their desire for peace, security and less crime fulfilled.
Posted on: 14 March 2008, 09:26:14
On the more personal scale though, we need to keep in mind that there is a difference between rights and preferences. We have the right to self-determination, it is our most fundamental right, that of all sentient beings to choose for themselves. Arrayed against that are the preferences of others. The preference to have others conform to our beliefs, or the preference to have you stay the way you are to suit the image of the person I fell in love with 20 years ago, that sort of thing.
Selfishness is the desire for and the action of doing something someone else would rather not see you do. Hence, the very common refrain to transitioners: "You are just selfish!"
Okay, maybe not all of the time.... ;)
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
Selfishness is the desire for and the action of doing something someone else would rather not see you do. Hence, the very common refrain to transitioners: "You are just selfish!"
I'd say it's selfish when someone doesn't even CARE about the effects of their actions on others. Transitioning "anyway" after considering the emotional costs to others isn't selfish. Transitioning without giving a darn about what it's effects will be is selfish, IMHO.
Ignoring someone else's rights just to fulfill your own needs or make things easier on yourself... is selfish. Transitioning while doing your best to acknowledgie everyone's rights without compromising your own... isn't selfish.
Transitioning by just DOING it and expecting and demanding that everyone around you "just deal with it" is selfish. Transitioning by making an effort to fit your transition into your overall social environment as smoothly as possible for everyone isn't selfish.
~Kate~
Well said Kate, as usual!
Quote from: Kate on March 14, 2008, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
Selfishness is the desire for and the action of doing something someone else would rather not see you do. Hence, the very common refrain to transitioners: "You are just selfish!"
I'd say it's selfish when someone doesn't even CARE about the effects of their actions on others. Transitioning "anyway" after considering the emotional costs to others isn't selfish. Transitioning without giving a darn about what it's effects will be is selfish, IMHO.
Ignoring someone else's rights just to fulfill your own needs or make things easier on yourself... is selfish. Transitioning while doing your best to acknowledgie everyone's rights without compromising your own... isn't selfish.
Transitioning by just DOING it and expecting and demanding that everyone around you "just deal with it" is selfish. Transitioning by making an effort to fit your transition into your overall social environment as smoothly as possible for everyone isn't selfish.
~Kate~
How do you determine whether or not someone 'cares?' Who defines that and how?
I had started this tongue-in-cheek (hence the wink) But, now you mention it, how would you know when someone has met the qualifications for not being 'selfish' that you have placed in your post?
N~
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 03:51:04 PM
How do you determine whether or not someone 'cares?' Who defines that and how?
I'm guessing only THEY themselves would know ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on March 14, 2008, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 03:51:04 PM
How do you determine whether or not someone 'cares?' Who defines that and how?
I'm guessing only THEY themselves would know ;)
~Kate~
Okay, I get that. But your original post was pretty firm, or seemed to be from this end. That leads me to thinking that maybe something becomes visible to a disinterested observer who can then say "X is selfish."
Otherwise it seems like a very subjective observation that would be different from the transitioner's perspective than it would be from a parent's, spouse's or child's.
So, given the original firmness of the opinion I was simply speculating that you might see something in one's behavior that might be a tip-off that they were being selfish.
I find I have thought that on occasion -- not about any transitioners I have met and that they were transitioning for selfish reasons, at least not that I can think of. I have met people, transitioners, posts, just people as well who I did feel are/were 'selfish.'
Is there some significant aspect of a behavior that makes it selfish? Or is it an internal stance that one has the 'intent' that they will do what they will do regardless the effects on another?
Nichole
I certainly feel like I often have very selfish desires. I want what I feel is my due and to hell with anyone who would say otherwise. But, I rarely if ever act on these thoughts. So while I can be selfish in my thoughts, I guess I'm not so selfish by my actions.
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 03:51:04 PM
Is there some significant aspect of a behavior that makes it selfish? Or is it an internal stance that one has the 'intent' that they will do what they will do regardless the effects on another?
I base my philosophy of right and wrong around the concept of Will - Freedom to choose, more importantly, freedom to make choices for yourself. Self determination, if you will. To me, any action that impacts on the capacity of another person to exercise that right to self-determination is selfish, and hence wrong, while an action that enhances the capacity of another to self determination is selfless.
Obviously this isn't always immediately apparent, and you sometimes have to run a few degrees of separation down the line to see the cause and effect chain, but I feel all interactions boil down to that. As long as you follow the cause and effect chain far enough, you will always find that your selfish actions lead back into negative consequences for you.
There is an excellent essay on this subject by Dr. Jack S. Willis entitled "The Virtue of Personal Liberation". I found it in an anthology entitled "Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation", but it might be available elsewhere.
Quote from: lady amarant on March 14, 2008, 04:19:56 PM
Obviously this isn't always immediately apparent, and you sometimes have to run a few degrees of separation down the line to see the cause and effect chain, but I feel all interactions boil down to that. As long as you follow the cause and effect chain far enough, you will always find that your selfish actions lead back into negative consequences for you.
So, Simone, without immediate appearance and in addition to some degrees of separation down the line: how does one determine the act is selfish?
After one gets beyond the immediate effect/act/event do other factors, many, intervene that the 'original' actor has nothing to do with?
Were there not events/acts/effects that intervened before what one might think of as the 'original' act that may have effected it and its occurrence?
Is there a way we can track such things, or are 'real world events' simply too full of unseen and unnoticed causes and effects to even determine a concept like 'free-will' or one like 'destiny/predestination?'
Can a philosophy of morality be anything other than a poorly defined construct that we place over actions and thoughts?
(BTW, please don't mistakenly think this is a solid belief I hold. Just a curiosity right now. A Socratic dialogue, if you will.)
Nichole
I think that if you are worrying about what you are doing is "selfish".... then you are not. There are times when self preservation trumps all.
On a flight for example, in an emergency, you are told to put your oxygen mask on before you do so for your child. The reason is that lack of oxygen and pressure will affect you very quickly. If you do your child's first, you could end up being a vegetable. For, you might pass out and not be able to perform the task. Passing out in itself will not have long term effects. It is the prolonged exposure to the low cabin pressure and lack of oxygen. If your kid is incapacitated for a brief moment, it won't hurt. For you will be fitting him with a a mask.
In a relationship, personal needs must be met first. If you can't work or function, it will affect the other person. There is plenty of room and time after that to be selfless.
As others have noted, many people will feel the other person to be selfish when that person is meeting his or her personal needs first. I can understand how a spouse may view this as selfish, for they see their mate turning into someone else. The vision of their future life together is changing radically. It's not what they signed up for.
If you are happy, your spouse will have a better chance at happiness. It's hard for me to imagine how being devastated for the rest of your life will help your spouse be happy.
Cindi
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 04:29:16 PM
Can a philosophy of morality be anything other than a poorly defined construct that we place over actions and thoughts?
(BTW, please don't mistakenly think this is a solid belief I hold. Just a curiosity right now. A Socratic dialogue, if you will.)
Oooh. Cool. I like those.
First point - yeah, morality is absolutely a construct built up from a core value. In my case, the core value is self-determination, as I would argue that most of the Western world's is. But if you go from a different core value though, for example 'survival', if we were defining a morality for non sentient animals, say, most of what is good under the first philosophy is completely wrong. Morality is a social construct, like everything else. We might have an inherent sense of compassion or an instinct towards community or whatever, but the act of saying - this is the most important thing ... that's creation.
As to the whole cause and effect chain. My first argument is that 'the buck stops here'. Yes, perhaps my reaction is informed by previous events and reactions, but I have the choice, just like everybody behind, and for that matter, ahead of me along the chain, to act against instinct, or anger, or fear, or whatever informs my initial response.
Examing the consequences isn't so difficult either as long as you are willing to work your way back from obvious outcomes rather than to try and project things forward.
Take a consequence of "I just got stolen from", for example. Asking why, you might answer - because the guy was hungry, because he can't find honest work, because he resents me, because. If you keep asking why far back enough, you'll most likely find that you had a hand, somehow, in your own situation. Taking the "can't find honest work" scenario back, it might be because the assailant lacks an education. So why, because he grew up in a country (South Africa, in the example) where there were huge inequalities in the educational opportunities that one group had over another. Now, if I look at my own situation, I grew up in relative privilage, and though I was too young to have had a hand in Apartheid, I benefited from it. And even though the situation has changed politically, in many ways the inequalities remain, and are worse, and resentments don't just disappear.
Similarly you can, step by step, trace environmental impacts, or social decay, or whatever else back to yourself in some way.
The other day, on the bus home from work, this guy starts ranting about how he's a true Brit because he was born here, even though he's black, and that it's all these immigrants from Poland and Aussie and South Africa (*blush*) that are the interlopers. Another guy in the back of the bus, made the mistake of breathing, I suppse, and the first guy starts going off at him. Meanwhile the second guy is protesting that he's a born Londoner, and the first is going on about how there is no such thing, and that white people are just settlers from mainland Europe anyway. Luckily the incident didn't escelate, but I can imagine that the first guy was upset by some other incident and projecting it forward. The second guy, caught in a scary situation, most likely projected THAT incident forward in turn in some sort of resentment, etc. etc. and somewhere along the line it no longer matters where the circle of racism and resentment started or began, only that somebody try to break the chain by recognising it and defusing his or her own ignorant or fearful reaction.
Now granted, I do tend to rationalise things to death, and I think you could easily boil this down to a simple question like "Am I acting out of understanding here, or am I acting out of ignorance?" (Because really, to me those are the base states that inform all others. If you can honestly look at your action and say the first rather than the second, you should be doing okay most of the time.
So anyway, that's my take on it. Incomplete and incoherent, but it's been a long week and you are not catching me at my best. I'll revise once I've had some sleep! ;D
i would call it the only basis for all morality and ethics. prudent selfishness is the greatest of all the virtues, and my personal maxim.
some external observer, however, would probably think that i'm extremely selfless and altruistic; this is only a further manifestation of my selfishness, though.
That was a really a good post, Simone.
Except, I think I will cut a Gordian Knot here and just point out that if the sources of our actions, decisions, etc are too completely involved with past actions, events, etc that we truly did have no part in, at least not in these bodies (afterall, who could have realized that the Dutch, Bantu and English would all converge about the area we now know as South Africa within a generation of each other? Did the Bantu cross the Zambesi sooner than the Dutch landed at Cape Town? Did either care a fig for the Kung! and their dwelling-place?) (WHEW!!) Then:
How does one trace cause and effect and current action so well that she is able to find a 'moral right?'
In that regard, are we not all 'ignorant.' Isn't any morality simply the attempt of an individual to place some meaningful framework around an action, whose origins and results are simply too complex to discover, for her peace of mind only?
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 05:26:04 PM
In that regard, are we not all 'ignorant.' Isn't any morality simply the attempt of an individual to place some meaningful framework around an action, whose origins and results are simply too complex to discover, for her peace of mind only?
According to Buddhism yeah, we are all ignorant, and in cultivating greater awareness and detachment, we move closer to enlightenment, which is simply perfect awareness and total detachment/destruction of the ego. I go with the ignorant part, though the total destruction of ego is something my little western mind still struggles with. ;)
And yeah, I often have doubts about doing the right thing - perhaps my act of compassion in helping the little old lady across the street backfires, because she was already on the right side. (I love that little skit!)
So ultimately when my ability to trace interconnection does fail me, I fall back on the words of Omah-Dessalah to Daniel in Stargate SG1 when he's dying of radiation poisoning: "Ultimately, all that matters is intention. Were you acting out of love for others, or out of fear for yourself?"
(Scary where I get my moral bearings from, isn't it! ;D )
Posted on: 14 March 2008, 16:34:10
And I really AM going to bed now!
Quote from: Nichole on March 14, 2008, 04:29:16 PM
After one gets beyond the immediate effect/act/event do other factors, many, intervene that the 'original' actor has nothing to do with?
Were there not events/acts/effects that intervened before what one might think of as the 'original' act that may have effected it and its occurrence?
Is there a way we can track such things, or are 'real world events' simply too full of unseen and unnoticed causes and effects to even determine a concept like 'free-will' or one like 'destiny/predestination?'
Can a philosophy of morality be anything other than a poorly defined construct that we place over actions and thoughts?
Nichole
if a woman gets a child support check from her ex, then spends the money on a tummy tuck rather than on her child, and the the child has to go without for school lunch money and scheduled doctor appointments, the woman is clearly at fault, and her primary error was that of selfishness. such faulty thinking is so egregious that it makes the woman herself seem faulty.
in Christian moral terms, her vice would be Greed, but this is very unfortunate for society, because greed is often regarded as something that wealthy and successful people have (therefore positive), or a requirement for wealth-building (also positive). even the Church itself is seen, at times, as greedy (necessary evil).
but in fact, selfishness is the root of a vast array of personal and social problems, both on a micro and a macro scale. while it may not be the crime itself, it is all too often the motive.
-ellie
Quoteif a woman gets a child support check from her ex
.... grrrr..... don't get me started. I paid 3 times what others paid for child support until the kids were 21! And guess what? There wasn't a penny for college coming from that side of the fence. I would like to think that the money was spent for the children but I know that much of it went to other things like that big new house and boat. The ex certainly has a much higher standard of living than I do. I should really learn to forget these details. It's over.... calm down Cindi.... calm down.
Cindi
Okay, I was taught that selfishness was at the very root of all sin. Why? because supposedly, Satan rebelled against God from selfishness: "I will place my throne in the stars, "I will make myself like the Most High." Satan wanted God's place, authority and power, for "himself". alas selfishness. Likewise, the original sin is regarded as a selfish act... wanting to be "like God", wanting to be "as good as Him."
Of course many years have passed since I was in Catholic School, and now my views have changed. I consider selfishness to be a virtue as well. After all, if you are invested enough in your own success, then you won't ever be a burden to others, will you? And IMHO that should be the true goal of all society's citizens, no?
tink :icon_chick: