Reading some of the posts here, I *think* I might fall under this category. I've always thought my mind has been sorta both genders at the same time - I can see both the views of a boy and girl (quite useful in life actually). When I'm around guys I'm more serious and I talk in a deeper voice... vice versa with I'm around girls. Then it's a lighter voice and a happy-go-lucky attitude. I've done some exploring before and I've found myself to be stuck at 50/50.
What you describe seems similar to my own experiences thus far. At this point, I think of myself as androgyne, maybe borderline TG.
I don't really think of myself as a woman in a man's body. But, I'm not fully comfortable in this body. At the same time, I feel that getting SRS would be just as limiting as keeping the body I have.
It is possible you do fall into this category, but only you can figure it out. It does sound like it, but that could be how you communicate it, or just how you feel at this time in your life. Stick around, see how things work, try it on for size. If it works, then you probably are.
I would say read through as many of the old threads as well, lots of good information in them.
Quote from: lostandconfused on March 15, 2008, 11:26:50 AM
Reading some of the posts here, I *think* I might fall under this category. I've always thought my mind has been sorta both genders at the same time - I can see both the views of a boy and girl (quite useful in life actually). When I'm around guys I'm more serious and I talk in a deeper voice... vice versa with I'm around girls. Then it's a lighter voice and a happy-go-lucky attitude. I've done some exploring before and I've found myself to be stuck at 50/50.
Hi lostandconfused! :icon_biggrin:
Let's try to help you find yourself... :icon_wink:
'Androgyne' is a gender identity.
Gender identity is a psychological state, the internal sense of being male or female, masculine or feminine, beyond one's biological sex. Androgynes do not feel they are male or female beyond their body's sex. 'Androgyne' is the psychological self-identification of possessing neither masculine gender, nor feminine gender.
Androgyne:
An androgynous person; An androgyne is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" male and female, or as entirely genderless or the Third Gender.
Androgynous:
Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Terms_and_definitions
Androgyne does not mean "transgender lite or transsexual lite".
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=22474
Androgyne does not mean Bigender.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender
What you describe about yourself, lostandconfused, sounds similar to Bigender, or perhaps Genderfluid.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gender+fluid
Consider Genderqueer also:
"Genderqueer is a recent attempt to signify gendered experiences that do not fit into binary concepts, and refers to a combination of gender identities and sexual orientations. One example could be a person whose gendered presentation is sometimes perceived as male, sometimes female, but whose gender identity is female, gendered expression is butch, and sexual orientation is lesbian. It suggests nonconformity or mixing of gendered stereotypes, conjoining both gender and gayness, and challenges existing constructions and identities."
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
we are a wide and varied group, and you are certainly welcome into the bosom of our weird disjointed family until you find somewhere better - or until you realise you were meant to be in our weird little family.
Yes, we are disjointed, which explains why our clothing appears so ungainly.
Quote from: Rebis on March 15, 2008, 10:04:14 PM
Yes, we are disjointed, which explains why our clothing appears so ungainly.
Wait, we are supposed to be wearing clothing?
Quote from: Kir on March 17, 2008, 03:01:19 PM
Quote from: Rebis on March 15, 2008, 10:04:14 PM
Yes, we are disjointed, which explains why our clothing appears so ungainly.
Wait, we are supposed to be wearing clothing?
It depends on whether or not you are standing in a grocery store.
Always thinking about nude shopping Rebis... ::)
Well Lostand confused, I think this is as good a place as any to explore. I'm always a big fan of trying things on so feel free to stay and try on an androgyne identity for size. Even if you find it is not right for you, you are still welcome to hang out.
We forgot to tell you that in order to receive the answer to your question
QuoteAm I "androgyne"?
you must send us all of the money you've ever saved. If you haven't saved any, you must get a job that pays well, and send everything except your gas money.
The management
Quote from: Rebis on March 17, 2008, 07:13:27 PM
We forgot to tell you that in order to receive the answer to your question
QuoteAm I "androgyne"?
you must send us all of the money you've ever saved. If you haven't saved any, you must get a job that pays well, and send everything except your gas money.
The management
Where to find a job these days that will have any money left after filling the gas tank of their car to get to and from the job... I know, you could sleep at the job, then you won't need gas money ;) :P
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on March 17, 2008, 07:16:49 PM
Where to find a job these days that will have any money left after filling the gas tank of their car to get to and from the job... I know, you could sleep at the job, then you won't need gas money ;) :P
Z
Exactly. I have decided to work 12 extra hours a week (at 7:30 in the morning and on Saturdays) in my windowless pod because I'm a money whore.
Welcome, lostandconfused! The best thing to do is hang around. If you haven't been corrupted yet, we can take care of that. :icon_eyebrow:
Quote from: Jaimey on March 17, 2008, 09:06:03 PMIf you haven't been corrupted yet, we can take care of that. :icon_eyebrow:
SHHHHH. Don't scare the poor thing.
Oh, don't believe them when they start talking initiation. Nothing to worry about.
Quote from: sd on March 17, 2008, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on March 17, 2008, 09:06:03 PMIf you haven't been corrupted yet, we can take care of that. :icon_eyebrow:
SHHHHH. Don't scare the poor thing.
Oh, don't believe them when they start talking initiation. Nothing to worry about.
Yeah. Welcome. And don't mind the talk of initiation. *psst, where's the handcuffs?* Those are just the crazy folks. We are actually a really mild set of folks with a strange sense of humor, all wandering down the path of life, trying to figure out where we belong in this weird world, and trying to have fun while doing it.
Gah, my face and voice, it gets more masculine every day :(. Would an average androgyne care about this? ??? Look at me, I'm on a transgender forum and I still seem unable to find a place to fit in :-\.
Quote from: lostandconfused on March 29, 2008, 03:51:06 PM
Gah, my face and voice, it gets more masculine every day :(. Would an average androgyne care about this? ??? Look at me, I'm on a transgender forum and I still seem unable to find a place to fit in :-\.
I'm not average ;) but I care that my face (and hair) appear more male as I age.
I also don't always feel that I fit in :-\
Z
Quote from: lostandconfused on March 29, 2008, 03:51:06 PM
Gah, my face and voice, it gets more masculine every day :(. Would an average androgyne care about this? ??? Look at me, I'm on a transgender forum and I still seem unable to find a place to fit in :-\.
That would depend entirely on the person.
If you are not happy with it, you are not happy with it. That is simply all there is to it. It in itself does not make you and androgyne, nor does it make you not one (though it is likely a sign that you are).
There are things you can do to counter this, some expensive, some cheap. Hair styles, eyebrows, hormones (low dose maybe?), androgen blockers, plastic surgery (there are MANY forms of this, some mild, some extreme), makeup, probably a few others as well. There is even voice surgery to make it higher pitched but it is does not have a great track record for results, a better option would be the same voice therapy mtf's use.
i'd like to meet this average androgyne.
Quote from: Pica Pica on March 29, 2008, 08:57:51 PM
i'd like to meet this average androgyne.
Just as long as there weren't too many of them. That would be boring. ;)
Lost & Confused: you are not alone in feeling that way. Some of us do feel uncomfortable about looking (or starting to look) too masculine (or feminine, as the case may be), and some of us still wonder where we fit in, if ever we do. Some transsexuals and cross-dressers share some of these feelings, but it seems that especially the question of fitting in is more common for androgynes than the rest. This isn't surprising, really, once you think it through.
There are two things that might help here. One is to consider the social aspects of gender as separate from the physical aspects of sex -- whatever way you feel about your body doesn't
have to match the way you feel about your social role. Androgyne is a gender, and most of us who identify with it do not have a visible physical intersex condition. The other thing is to consider gender (and sex, too) as a grouping of separate traits, and realise that you don't have to take
all the traits (either physical or social) associated with 'male', but are instead free to figure out which ones are important to you.
Nfr
I thought we weren't using the terms masculine and feminine anymore. Nor were we identifying androgyne traits as we are only psychologically weird. These traits, someone said, are just social constructs or stereotypes (or was it monotypes) and, therefore, not real. And for a sexual man to be concerned about appearance or presentation is only a further indication that real men are disappearing from the scene and will soon be extinct.
Of course, I was away for the weekend, visiting my daughter's chosen college for Admitted Student's Day and submitting deposits for tuition and room and board. I missed so much. Was I supposed to send those checks to Rebis? I am so confused. :o
Simone
All checks are to be sent to me along with a flatscreen television.
Or, you can pay for my college. :-*
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 10:14:58 AM
Or, you can pay for my college.
Join me at UPS and the company will pay for your college, plus if you mention my name they'll pay me a fee for referring you. That's the same offer I made my daughter.
Simone
Really? They won't make me drive, will they?
I hate driving. I'm a computician (a make believe word), but willing to do nearly anything except kiss Earnest Borgnine.
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 01:28:35 PM
but willing to do nearly anything except kiss Earnest Borgnine.
Come on, you know you want to!
Check UPS for locations, there is likely one near you and driving is not the easiest job to get there.
Maybe I will.
Do you both work (SD & Simone) at UPS?
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 02:04:41 PM
Maybe I will.
Do you both work (SD & Simone) at UPS?
I have a buddy who did, I never worked there. I only know a little about it from those who have applied or do work there.
I am self employed.
SD is correct that driving is a coveted position; I don't want to be a driver, myself. Mostly, I pick up a package in a truck and put it onto a moving belt. Sometimes, I sort packages. Other times, I pull packages from a belt and load them on one of the brown "package cars" that go from house to house and business to business.
I once had dinner in a restaurant close to Bert Lahr (the Cowardly Lion), but I have never seen Ernest Borgnine in person. You needn't worry about having to kiss him while working at UPS.
I feel bad now that I may have demeaned Ernest Borgnine. I supposed if he didn't do his McHale laugh, I could kiss him. His teeth freak me out.
??? How exactly did we come to the subject of kissing Ernest Borgnine? hehe. That's pretty...special. :P
an old woody allen joke in one of his books. he refers to a woman who looks like ernest borgnine. So, now and then over the years, I stupidly wonder what it would be like to kiss ernest borgnine.
I've always thought my mind has been sorta both genders at the same time- Tick.
I can see both the views of a boy and girl (quite useful in life actually).- Tick.
But I'm a Boy!
This seems to be confusing me so much lately! I am a Boy! I have been FOR EVER. So why do a lot of (no, MOST) Androgynous things apply to me?
Sorry, that sounded propper selfish, just needed to get it off my chest.
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 08:41:17 PM
I've always thought my mind has been sorta both genders at the same time- Tick.
I can see both the views of a boy and girl (quite useful in life actually).- Tick.
But I'm a Boy!
This seems to be confusing me so much lately! I am a Boy! I have been FOR EVER. So why do a lot of (no, MOST) Androgynous things apply to me?
Sorry, that sounded propper selfish, just needed to get it off my chest.
I think all that matters is what you feel you are. If you feel you are a boy then you are a boy. It does not matter if you wear cherry red lipstick, 4 inch heals, a strap-on, and can cry watching chick flicks (which incidently is the image of my ideal man, such a man would appeal and repel me, I could be anything with such a man). You could be a boy with extra perks or a perk with extra boy....it is ok to be gender queer. The traits don't make you what you are, traits are just things you have.
Just aside I like Rebs new avatar. I liked the show where Bender got an 'oil change' and became a fembot,Roberta, and she almost got married to calculon <sigh>.
maybe you are a boy with an open mind and some different experiences to most boys.
Actually, I have often thought that I am a boy. But the difference for me is that I am NOT a MAN. I think that's what makes me pre-gendered/androgyne and not ftm. I am most definitely not a man or a woman. In my mind, I am a boy, but I can live with girl. It's man and woman I have trouble with. But that's the pregendered coming out.
:)
Not a manly man, right?
Hell, I really need help with this. How do I explain this to my Therapist?
Can just imagine the conversation.
I'm a boy.
Are you a man?
Not the manly kind.
What kind are you then?
The... Womanly kind?
Yes, but not a woman!
Why?
And I'm back on Square one! I can't explain it and then She goes and drops a bombshell.
Are you Androgynous?
Agreeing to that would make people lay off my case but agreeing to that would make "my case" doubtable.
Sorry, it's 3:20AM and I need to get some sleep. Sorry for spamming.
Eureaka Jamiey
And thank you.
and it's no spamming - always welcome for new perspectives.
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 09:18:32 PM
Not a manly man, right?
Hell, I really need help with this. How do I explain this to my Therapist?
Can just imagine the conversation.
I'm a boy.
Are you a man?
Not the manly kind.
What kind are you then?
The... Womanly kind?
Yes, but not a woman!
Why?
And I'm back on Square one! I can't explain it and then She goes and drops a bombshell.
Are you Androgynous?
Agreeing to that would make people lay off my case but agreeing to that would make "my case" doubtable.
Sorry, it's 3:20AM and I need to get some sleep. Sorry for spamming.
Hey Fluffy.
I feel pretty much the same. I mean, I am a manly man and all that, but have many 'unmanly' traits. I wear mascara, highlight my hair and don't know sports. Also am very non-stoic. So, convential thinking considers me androgynous, I guess. But an androgynous
male. Whether it's due to my female upbringing or not, don't know. Don't care. It's me.
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 09:18:32 PM
Not a manly man, right?
Hell, I really need help with this. How do I explain this to my Therapist?
Can just imagine the conversation.
I'm a boy.
Are you a man?
Not the manly kind.
What kind are you then?
The... Womanly kind?
Yes, but not a woman!
Why?
And I'm back on Square one! I can't explain it and then She goes and drops a bombshell.
Are you Androgynous?
Agreeing to that would make people lay off my case but agreeing to that would make "my case" doubtable.
Sorry, it's 3:20AM and I need to get some sleep. Sorry for spamming.
I don't think you need to explain it. It can just be because that is the way you feel. Perhaps androgeonly man? I think popeye said it most poeticly - "I yam what I yam."
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 08:41:17 PM
I've always thought my mind has been sorta both genders at the same time- Tick.
I can see both the views of a boy and girl (quite useful in life actually).- Tick.
But I'm a Boy!
This seems to be confusing me so much lately! I am a Boy! I have been FOR EVER. So why do a lot of (no, MOST) Androgynous things apply to me?
Sorry, that sounded propper selfish, just needed to get it off my chest.
So you are both, you need to separate your body from your mind/gender. They are two separate things. Ignore what your body is, and pay attention to your mind, this has nothing to do with your body.
Try and get your head around being both genders before trying to figure anything else out.
There are people here who started off more mixed up than you, it will come, just try not to rush or freak out about it.
Posted on: March 31, 2008, 09:29:58 PM
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 08:29:01 PM
So, now and then over the years, I stupidly wonder what it would be like to kiss ernest borgnine.
I will never look at you or Ernest the same again... I think I am scarred for life.
Would mentioning "androgynous" in any context do any bad in the long run though?
As much as I hate opening up to Psychologists, etc., I know I have to, to get anywhere.
So if I'm being me and they say "androgynous"... Uh.
Just saw Annwayn's thread too, all I wanna do is go to sleep, but my Mind's on Overdrive.
If I do research on this... Oh, buggar, mental block!
Yes, scratch the body, I'm a boy.
But... A boy can't be a boy on their own. There's always an essence of a girl in them. Is that it?
Noone can be a 100% their... What's the word... The gender they're born as?
Quote from: sd on March 31, 2008, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 08:29:01 PM
So, now and then over the years, I stupidly wonder what it would be like to kiss ernest borgnine.
I will never look at you or Ernest the same again... I think I am scarred for life.
I think I remember hearing somewhere that in "All The Pretty Horses", Billy Bob Thornton told Matt Damon to do the scene picturing his (matt's) head in Ernest Borgnine's ass. Talk about not looking at him the same way ever again...
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 09:38:19 PM
Would mentioning "androgynous" in any context do any bad in the long run though?
As much as I hate opening up to Psychologists, etc., I know I have to, to get anywhere.
So if I'm being me and they say "androgynous"... Uh.
Just saw Annwayn's thread too, all I wanna do is go to sleep, but my Mind's on Overdrive.
If I do research on this... Oh, buggar, mental block!
Yes, scratch the body, I'm a boy.
But... A boy can't be a boy on their own. There's always an essence of a girl in them. Is that it?
Noone can be a 100% their... What's the word... The gender they're born as?
Androgynous is usually about physical appearance.
Androgyne is about your gender.
I would not say it is bad, your shrink may not understand what it is though.
Most people think you are either boy or girl and no in between, some think there is a sliding scale.
Is there a bit of a girl in every boy, that is open to debate.
Some of the younger generation are crossing the lines though and blending everything together. Trying to sort between that and us could be difficult. I have been called a metrosexual on more than one occasion because of how open I am about gender and sex. I am not, but some of the thinking can be similar.
Thing is, how does a girl know she is a girl, same with a boy. You cannot look at how they think or act because that only shows personality or what people expect. It does not identify what you are.
If you think you are both, you probably are. You also could be more one than the other. If you believe in the sliding scale. You may be a boy with a bit of girl mixed in. I cannot tell you that, neither can a shrink, they can only guide you to making your own revelations about yourself.
QuoteAndrogynous is usually about physical appearance.
Androgyne is about your gender.
More research, definetely.
Basically I'm meant to be a Boy, because my consiounce tells me so?
And a girl identifies as a girl because their consiounce tells them so?
And some people identify as both or neither because... the same as above?
Is that a good enough reason though?
And why does it matter what some Doctor thinks when what you think is important?
'Cause they're the one who's gonna say: You can have this physical aspect of Female/ Male!!!
Quote from: fluffy jorgen on March 31, 2008, 09:58:45 PM
More research, definetely.
Basically I'm meant to be a Boy, because my consiounce tells me so?
And a girl identifies as a girl because their consiounce tells them so?
And some people identify as both or neither because... the same as above?
Is that a good enough reason though?
And why does it matter what some Doctor thinks when what you think is important?
'Cause they're the one who's gonna say: You can have this physical aspect of Female/ Male!!!
Not only is it a good enough reason, it is the only one that matters.
Unless you are underage and a parent decides, a doctor cannot do anything without your permission.
They do hold the keys to any drugs or surgery you may need though, but there is always another doctor willing to do what you want.
Quote from: Jaimey on March 31, 2008, 09:38:43 PM
Quote from: sd on March 31, 2008, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 08:29:01 PM
So, now and then over the years, I stupidly wonder what it would be like to kiss ernest borgnine.
I will never look at you or Ernest the same again... I think I am scarred for life.
I think I remember hearing somewhere that in "All The Pretty Horses", Billy Bob Thornton told Matt Damon to do the scene picturing his (matt's) head in Ernest Borgnine's ass. Talk about not looking at him the same way ever again...
Well isn't this just fab! Now no one will ever
smell either of us the same way again. I don't even have an emoticon for this moment.
Quote from: Jörgen on March 31, 2008, 09:58:45 PM
More research, definetely.
Basically I'm meant to be a Boy, because my consiounce tells me so?
And a girl identifies as a girl because their consiounce tells them so?
And some people identify as both or neither because... the same as above?
Is that a good enough reason though?
And why does it matter what some Doctor thinks when what you think is important?
'Cause they're the one who's gonna say: You can have this physical aspect of Female/ Male!!!
Hmm. I think you just "know". I don't think it has to do with our conscience or anything like that. I think it is biological and we discover what we are based on our interactions with others. I know that I'm not female (psychologically) because I am not like other women. But I know I'm not a man because I am not like men. It is easier for a child's mind to understand (because possibilities are endless in a child's mind...at least that is what I think), so I just tried to remember how I felt as a child. I felt like a boy. But for me, 'boy' is different from 'man'.
If you are a boy, then you're a boy. That's all there is to it. No one knows you better than you. :) If you see a counselor who dismisses your gender identity or who you feel is not listening or taking you seriously, perhaps you can find another one. You could use the term "psychologically androgynous" or say that you have an androgynous mind. If you put the emphasis on your mind, it might help others understand.
One thing you might do is use what you've read in the forums that applied to you. If you can print out things that apply to you, it might help. I have found that sometimes other people can explain it better than I can. ??? I don't think I'm much help here.
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 10:16:57 PM
Well isn't this just fab! Now no one will ever smell either of us the same way again. I don't even have an emoticon for this moment.
hehehe. I wish I could find that interview somewhere. It was really funny to hear Matt talk about trying to do that serious scene when all he could think about was Ernest's ass. heheh. :laugh: