Last night I was at a gathering of a South Asian LGBT organization, with a panel discussion on transgender in Desi culture. It was preceded by performances by two drag queens and a butch boi comedienne, who then sat on the panel and were joined by a transsexual lady.
One gay gentleman in the audience posed the usual question we always hear: "Why do you have to change your bodies instead of just being happy with the body you got? Look at me, I'm a flaming queen, but I don't want to change my body. Why can't you just be flaming queens like me?"
The Indian and Pakistani drag queens tried to answer for transsexuals, and completely failed, since it was clear they don't have a clue either. They are not taking hormones or changing their bodies either, so they can't explain why transsexuals do. Likewise, the Sri Lankan Tamil butch boi lacked insight into transsexualism, though she can speak well about performing comedy in two genders. The Pakistani transsexual woman there tried to explain, but she lacked the eloquence to do more than mumble vaguely about "feeling." Meanwhile the drag queens, who are used to performing, were more than happy to offer golden-tongued oratory about a subject they don't understand, getting it wrong. It was frustrating to watch.
Finally another gay gentleman with better consciousness on LGBT issues spoke up and explained what transsexualism is really like for those going through the experience: the extremely painful contradiction between body and self that began in the fetus. When asked about why they used a cross-gender expression, the drag queens said they enjoyed the freedom, the pretty clothes, and the "performativity" that Judith Butler wrote about in Gender Trouble. I was thinking, geez, to me it's a matter of life and death, and they care about pretty clothes and performing. I wish transsexualism had been better represented.
So to those who argue that all "transgender" people are the same, I say no. To be transsexual is a specific burden that you can't understand unless you've lived it-- or unless, as the learned gay gentleman demonstrated, you've made a special study of it and listened carefully to TS people's experiences and insights. The umbrella term "transgender" covers such disparate types, it doesn't really convey much useful meaning, and it poses a danger of obscuring the issues and needs of specific groups.
well, the term transgender covers everything from casual cross-dressing, female impersonation, severe transvestism, ->-bleeped-<-, and transsexualism. i agree this is too broad a characterization to be useful and it's not precise; it implies similarity in actions that have no relationship whatsoever and since it's nebulous and vague in meaning, it ends by telling you nothing about a particular individual.
From an etiological point of view, and perhaps even a political one, you make a good point.
I just worry that the move to seperate them will end up leaving some people behind as the rest get the recognition they deserve.
Well, to be TS means always taking criticism for changing our bodies. I don't know why that bothers cissexual people so much. Maybe they have nightmares of being castrated, I don't know what their big problem is with us taking care of our needs. So if the subject comes up, I want our side of it told by someone who actually understands it. Sorry but drag queens just cannot speak for me on such crucial life and death issues. I worry that with a hegemonic term like "transgender" that erases the distinctiveness of TS, we will be the ones whose issues are "left behind" because ours are the most difficult (and expensive).
I absolutely agree Hypatia, don't get me wrong. Different groups under the transgender umbrella don't and perhaps can't understand on another, and should not presume to speak on one another's behalf.
Sorry if I made a hash of explaining - in this I agree with you. My thoughts on this thread were being contaminated by another one on a different forum about how TS people should not associate with other transgendered individuals.
Please forgive. ;)
my small contribution is to specify 'transsexual' when transsexual is the obvious subject or topic. I make it clear to anyone who asks that a transsexual has a very different experience than the rest of us do and i try to get across why there is a difference to begin with.
But, you can't expect the whole world to be entirely aware at this point. it could be decades before the concept is better known by the average person.
what does 'ftw' mean?
'fix the wrongs'? maybe?
Tink's honest opinion:
I have always maintained that "transsexual" is NOT a subgroup of "transgender", and that the distinction between the two needs to be made. Although I have absolutely no problem with transgender people, I've always felt that the attempted inclusion of transsexual people under the "transgender" aegis is to our detriment.
However, I think that it is possible to be able to explain this fact to people. They may not be able to fully comprehend our feelings as if they were one of us, but they can learn about us. So they can answer questions in a pinch.
But, yes absolutely, the best answers come from those of us who live with the condition day in and day out.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 08:45:28 PM
ftw means for the win
oh. I'm a old person. Me no understand yer internets lingo.
but tink, if we take transgender to mean transgressing gender boundaries then the only transgenders are crossdressers.
To me, "transgender" implies that I am "crossing" between the gender boundaries of male and female or that I'm somewhere in the middle, and in my case, that is NOT true, for I've NEVER crossed any gender boundaries. My gender has ALWAYS been female, and personally I feel insulted when someone tells me that I have "changed genders". The only thing I have changed is my physical sex, NOT my gender.
tink :icon_chick:
and I never crossed any gender boundaries I was always androgyne.
and a cross dresser never crossed gender boundaries, they were always a man (for example) but a man playing with the traditional clothes as a woman.
No one is crossing boundaries particularly, everyone is fighting for the same thing - to be recognised for what they are.
Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 09:12:44 PM
eh
other people are going to see you as having transgressed it most likely, though, and probably are not going to agree when you explain why you do not think you are transgressing
I, for one, welcome our transgender overlords
That's fine. "other people" have never been a part when it comes to my own gender identity.
tink :icon_chick:
but the thread was a story about who can stand up and clearly and understandably talk about transsexual's to a group of people new to the ideas, and I agree that a transsexual is the best person to talk for the transsexuals - but if they were to stand up and go 'It just is and I have my reasons' people would probably leave knowing less, being less interested in knowing and much less accepting of transsexuals compared to when they went in.
Quote from: Tink on March 30, 2008, 09:02:17 PM
To me, "transgender" implies that I am "crossing" between the gender boundaries of male and female or that I'm somewhere in the middle, and in my case, that is NOT true, for I've NEVER crossed any gender boundaries. My gender has ALWAYS been female, and personally I feel insulted when someone tells me that I have "changed genders". The only thing I have changed is my physical sex, NOT my gender.
tink :icon_chick:
Tink, I really like what you said. I have never thought of it that way. I do believe that I have not been a transgendered person either. I have always felt female even when I was trying so hard to be male. I have always thought that we were connected with the intersexed people. I don't ever want to go back to what I was and I do believe in the binary system that there are only two genders, which I'm one.
Sheila
Don't forget that many transsexuals do not want to stand up and speak about it in public (if anywhere). That's where us intermediates start earning our pay.
Do we even get paid for the services we perform? ???
wouldn't even get a thankyou. >:(
Thank you, Redfish. :)
I just boiled it down to into the terminology. Cis-meaning on the same side, and Trans-meaning across from (like the trans and cis allotropes you find in chemistry). So transgendered just means your gender is across from...your sex. Transsexual is the sam e thing, your sex is across from...your gender.
I can see your point though, Tink, and it does make a lot of sense.
I don't want people to even bring maleness into the picture when they think of me, which is what the term transgender often is taken for.
Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 09:33:39 PM
i think u guys r pretty cool
you get the postmodern socially constructed redfish seal of approval :)
I concur. Androgynes FTW!
That's funny, I'd always assumed that FTW stood for "F|_|ck the world" -- a cry of defiance. If they don't accept me as I am, f|_|ck the world! Actually, that was exactly the phrase used by more than one of the transgender panelists about how they dealt with rejection for being who they are. I concurred with that, and it's a point I shared in common with them.
I neither advocate nor condemn the infamous "gender binary." I happen to fit neatly into the slot labeled "woman." I also respect individuals who don't fit into the binary, and support them being who they are.
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.
Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.
ABSOLUTELY.
FTW is "for the win", BTW... *giggle*
Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes."
I think I can see where that kind of argument is coming from -- after all, if you make an effort to conform to the binary you
are keeping it up. However, it misses at least a couple of relevant points.
First, this argument assumes that gender is ultimately a social construct, and so all you need to break the binary is enough people who stop believing in it. This may be true,
if you define gender in a way that downplays the physical aspects so much that they become irrelevant. There are gender activists who can do that, but general acceptance is still at least several decades off.
Second, the argument assumes that transsexuals are unhappy with their
gender. Yes, quite a few are unhappy with the expectations and roles associated to the gender assigned to them at birth, but this is secondary. The real issue is an unhappiness with physical sex, and for many changing gender roles is ultimately a way to fit in society after fixing the physical issues. In fact, the argument can easily be turned upside down: if the gender stereotypes didn't exist it would be possible to have HRT and SRS without any sort of social transition, and that would be very nice indeed. Right now it isn't possible, though, and this won't change any time soon, regardless of what a few transsexuals do in their attempt to fit in (see point one).
In a sense it's a matter of trans
gender vs. trans
sex: someone who has issues with gender roles does not automatically understand someone who has issues with their physical sex. Or vice versa, although the way gender and sex are coupled makes it more likely.
Nfr
Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.
Partly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition.
If TS and TG are completely separate then where does that put them? Do we need separate legal/medical routes for transitioning people depending on whether they believe in the binary or not?
I worry that with a hegemonic term like "transgender" that erases the distinctiveness of TS, we will be the ones whose issues are "left behind" because ours are the most difficult (and expensive).
No more than the phrase "women of color" takes away from the experience of African-American women in America, nor does it erase the distinctiveness of the Hispanic women in America. Its just saying that there are common parts of the experience of both that they can make common cause. You can be European which doesn't take away from being Dutch or Greek - not all of which have the distinctiveness of being from either Amsterdam or Athens (both of which very different experiences in many ways.)
As for the binary sexandgender deal, yeesh, part of what I love about not being in academia is not having to talk like this. Gender is in several key ways different from sex, which is a strictly observable deal. In the sense that you 'sex' young chicks, you do not 'gender' them. Gender has to do with a range of traits - not necessarily exclusive to one or the other - where sex has to do with one aspect only, reproductive organs - a hole or a pole deal. "Sex" was, and is, a perfectly valid distinction for describing a given attribute, where "gender" was needed to elaborate on things, most of a a behavioral and psychological and cultural nature that were differences, not distinctions. (In the sense where you KNOW the split based on a distinction, but could only GUESS on the split based on differences alone.)
To the degree that moving from one to the other tends to reinforce the notion that there are two - the matter of the moving from one to the other proves that the wall between the two is not nearly as solid as once thought - it's not an absolute. Proving that the two are not absolute, is the first step to proving (or defining if you will, most of this is construct and not reality) that more than two are possible.
PS, its my understanding, poor though it is at such things, that "FTW" means "For the Win" in gammerspeak.
Quote from: Pica Pica on March 30, 2008, 09:26:19 PM
but the thread was a story about who can stand up and clearly and understandably talk about transsexual's to a group of people new to the ideas, and I agree that a transsexual is the best person to talk for the transsexuals - but if they were to stand up and go 'It just is and I have my reasons' people would probably leave knowing less, being less interested in knowing and much less accepting of transsexuals compared to when they went in.
Obviously the best person to speak for each group is someone who is of that group, but it isn't always possible to have representatives from all groups at every event. Whenever I speak publicly about trans issues, I always state that I'm speaking for myself only, not as a representative of the entire community. At the same time I do my absolute best to learn and be informed about the concerns and needs of each group so that I can help educate people about us.
The bottom line for me is the right for every person to
safely express and live in their preferred gender without discrimination. For people who fit in the binary to be accepted as such, and also acceptance for those who live outside the binary.
Zythyra
Quote from: taru on March 31, 2008, 06:50:52 AMPartly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition.
Not sure I follow your thought here. What are they transitioning
to?
Posted on: March 31, 2008, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on March 31, 2008, 06:20:32 AMSecond, the argument assumes that transsexuals are unhappy with their gender. Yes, quite a few are unhappy with the expectations and roles associated to the gender assigned to them at birth, but this is secondary. The real issue is an unhappiness with physical sex, and for many changing gender roles is ultimately a way to fit in society after fixing the physical issues.
That isn't quite right. I'm not sure how you decided to rank these.
For me, it concerns
both sex and gender, neither one secondary to the other. I was never able to function properly in male gender; every atom in my being was crying out for female socialization. The gender of woman is very important to me, however much others may belittle it. The conflict does concern the "expectations and roles associated with" genders, but it's more: A need to fit in where I know I belong, to come home from exile. Like the reed in Rumi's poem:
Listen to the reed as it tells its tale;
it complains of separation.
Since they cut me from the reed-bed,
men and women have been crying over my lament.
I wish for someone with a bosom torn apart by separation,
so that I can tell them the meaning of the pain of longing.
Everyone who stays far away from his own origin
seeks to get back to the day he was together with it.Posted on: March 31, 2008, 02:18:33 PM
Quote from: Zythyra on March 31, 2008, 09:11:31 AM
The bottom line for me is the right for every person to safely express and live in their preferred gender without discrimination. For people who fit in the binary to be accepted as such, and also acceptance for those who live outside the binary.
Thank you! :) Shake on that.
Quote from: Rebis on March 30, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 08:45:28 PM
ftw means for the win
oh. I'm a old person. Me no understand yer internets lingo.
That was l33t 5p4k
I agree with the title to this thread btw. (By The Way)
Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 03:20:59 PM
Quote from: taru on March 31, 2008, 06:50:52 AMPartly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition.
Not sure I follow your thought here. What are they transitioning to?
That is the issue with us. Some of us know what we want to look like, others don't know and won't until they achieve it. It's why a lot of us kind of sit it out. It's why
I'm sitting it out.
My personal vision is female on the bottom, male up top, and with a female head. different hair cuts every year. women's voice. short.
when you're done laughing, feel free to join me in crying.
:laugh: :'( :laugh:
I wish you the best in realizing your dreams, dear (and discovering what they are). Sounds like an open-ended journey of discovery.
like being a pioneer.
Rebis the Sex Chimera
it's why I can't make a transitional move. My self image changes constantly.
Now we need to find someone to explain me at a conference. :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 08:59:02 PM
Now we need to find someone to explain me at a conference. :laugh:
We could have a special conference devoted to explaining Reeb :P Workshops, panels, experts, booths selling accessories, a special dinner with guest speaker ;D Sounds fun, I'll be there if you promise to have it in a different climate ;)
Z
I think you answered that best yourself.
'I'm not short and I'm not tall, I often wonder what I'm trying to accomplish.'
Quote from: Pica Pica on March 31, 2008, 09:08:36 PM
I think you answered that best yourself.
'I'm not short and I'm not tall, I often wonder what I'm trying to accomplish.'
who said that?
Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 03:20:59 PM
For me, it concerns both sex and gender, neither one secondary to the other. I was never able to function properly in male gender; every atom in my being was crying out for female socialization.
All right; let me re-phrase it. The thing that -- in my opinion -- defines a transsexual in relation to several other transgendered variants is unhappiness about one's physical sex. The way I read it, that's also really at the core of the debacle you described. Many transsexuals also have an unhappiness with social gender, and it is quite possible to argue that a transsexual by definition has problems with both (my relative lack of this social dysphoria is why I usually don't dare consider myself TS), but in this context it doesn't add anything. The point is that having one does not by itself create an understanding of the other, and this is at the core of why some genderqueers have problems with transsexuality.
Nfr
Good explanation, Seshatneferw, that works for me. When you put it that way, I agree.
you said it. doughnut.
well, I can't be expected to remember every brilliant thing that comes out of my mouth or my fingers.
and if people are going to quote me, I would expect that I'd receive some compensation. ;)
I'm thinking that it might not be so good sending a transsexual to do a drag queen's job either :P ;)
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on April 01, 2008, 09:38:12 PM
I'm thinking that it might not be so good sending a transsexual to do a drag queen's job either :P ;)
That's for sure!
I kind of agree with Tink in some ways and disagree with her in others.
Transgender has effectively come to mean transsexual in many vernaculars and for purposes of advocacy. So if there is a panel on trans issues, it really should only include transsexuals, whether they use the term transgender or transsexual.
It was good there was somebody there willing to actually speak up on the reality of trans people though, even if they are not trans, because the one person was very disparaging of transsexuals.
With that being said feminism conferences are becoming the places most in touch with trans issues. Mara Keisling from NTCE was the emergency keynote speaker for the visions in feminism conference, which dealt heavily with trans issues. The people speaking on trans issues at this conference were in fact transsexuals.
Wait-- were you there? I wonder how I missed seeing you. I went to the trans allies workshop, it was pretty cool. Mara gave a kickass speech, considering she was asked to speak at the last minute. She was warmly supported by the feminist audience, who were almost entirely college students. Gives me hope for the new generation.
I quite agree. Drag queens don't know our needs. They're foreign to this anguish. Putting on a dress for the Saturday's ball isnt enough to make anybody apt to talk for transsexual rights.
Quote from: Tink on March 30, 2008, 09:02:17 PM
To me, "transgender" implies that I am "crossing" between the gender boundaries of male and female or that I'm somewhere in the middle, and in my case, that is NOT true, for I've NEVER crossed any gender boundaries. My gender has ALWAYS been female, and personally I feel insulted when someone tells me that I have "changed genders". The only thing I have changed is my physical sex, NOT my gender.
tink :icon_chick:
Tink! after you completed your transition, Do you still feel as or identify as a transsexual or a complete woman?
The reason I'm asking is Does ones transexuality end after SRS? Or Do we consider ourselves to be transexual for the rest of our lives.
I hope you understand what I mean. I'm not sure if I worded it right.
Karla B
Quote from: Blanche on April 02, 2008, 07:09:28 AM
I quite agree. Drag queens don't know our needs.
It's weird how the misunderstandings always seem to go in one direction. You don't often hear TSs telling drag queens that they should just throw out the flamboyant clothes and transition. Or that CDrs should stop denying who they really are and just transition and be done with it.
But I so often hear drag queens (some, not all) suggesting we're just gays taking things too far. Or gays (some, not all) saying they know what it's like "to be a woman" because they have sex (in their way) with other men. Or TGs (some, not all) saying we shouldn't let society scare us from "expressing" ourselves freely, and don't have to change physically just to justify doing that. Or non-GID people (some, not all) saying
"God doesn't make mistakes" and telling us we need to just deal with our situation and stop whining.
Maybe TSs *are* elitists, as they're so often accused of. But ya know, it's not so much arrogance as a fear of being misunderstood by people who seem determined to understand us by force-fitting us into THEIR reality, their worldview, rather than seeing and acknowledging us for who we really are.
I don't mind people not getting it... I mind more when they think they DO, lol...
~Kate~
Quote from: Blanche on April 02, 2008, 07:09:28 AM
I quite agree. Drag queens don't know our needs. They're foreign to this anguish. Putting on a dress for the Saturday's ball isnt enough to make anybody apt to talk for transsexual rights.
ha ha ha. true. true.
Quote from: Kate on April 02, 2008, 02:17:25 PM
Maybe TSs *are* elitists, as they're so often accused of.
~Kate~
making the distinction between a drag queen & a ts makes us elitists? tough! people need to wake up & smell the coffee. drag queens aren't ts and that's all there's to it.
Quote from: Karla B on April 02, 2008, 12:48:06 PMDoes ones transexuality end after SRS?
Depending on whose definitions you listen to, either:
1) You're not TS until you get the surgery; or,
2) You stop being TS after the surgery.
Oy vey. It gives me a headache...