I was discussing my choice of whether or not to transition with my boyfriend and we hit on an interesting (I think) subject.
If I'm not happy with society reacting to me based on my birth gender then that's a problem with society and not with me. So ideally shouldn't the solution be to try and change or remove society's perceptions of gender? I realise that seems like an impossible task (which is why I said ideally) but a part of me still feels like transitioning would amount to submitting to society's standards/pre-conceptions.
I realise that most transsexuals just want to blend in and I would like to as well, that's understandable. I'm just wondering... IF I can gather the courage to go on living as a male and still dress and act as myself (ie. female) then yes I would stand out and yes I would cringe everytime I saw myself in the mirror but then I would remember that I'm still being myself in my mind and in my actions and that's what's important. If I can find the courage to do that (and why can't I?) then maybe I'd be setting an example?
This is not a criticism of those who choose to transition by any means (I still would like to transition myself), it's just something to think about.
i assume you are F2M transsexual... but you say
Quote from: Alex on April 16, 2008, 08:09:43 AM
IF I can gather the courage to go on living as a male and still dress and act as myself (ie. female) then yes I would stand out and yes I would cringe everytime I saw myself in the mirror but then I would remember that I'm still being myself in my mind and in my actions and that's what's important.
myself (ie. female) you say... so if you see yourself as female, are you sure you really want to change sex; are you really a transsexual? there are numerous other gender/sex variations out there and you should feel free to find whatever suits you best, regardless of what someone thinks...
for me (and many others) transition is not just a masking of my genetic sex, and making someone see me as me, but about myself and about how i feel in my body... if you feel ok then there is no need to change anything
best wishes
For me it's less about what others think about me and my gender, but more about being comfortable in my own skin. I have never been comfortable as a woman, never fit in with other women, never understood women really, and have always hated having to get 'dressed up' as a woman for events. So NOT ME!!
I'm at a point in my life where this discomfort is overwhelming and I feel the need to change my body to match my mind. I realize it won't be easy and in fact will cause a lot of issues where currently there are none, but I'm not sure I can continue living as a woman when I never really have been. It's been tolerable because i'm attracted to men, so that's an added complication, in terms of why change my body and limit my options for dating men?
Jay
Mari, I'm male considered becoming MtF
Quote from: Alex on April 16, 2008, 08:37:11 AM
Mari, I'm male considered becoming MtF
i didn't get that since you put 'male' (the blue sign :))as your gender...
Transition isn't about making society happy - it's about bringing your gender identity and physical sex in line with one another. Where society DOES need education, is on not discriminating against people in transition, or against people who have transitioned. Also, if people do have an androgyne or genderqueer identity and somehow present as such, THAT is something society needs to learn to respect. But no, transition as such is not for others, but for yourself.
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on April 16, 2008, 09:06:40 AM
Transition isn't about making society happy - it's about bringing your gender identity and physical sex in line with one another. Where society DOES need education, is on not discriminating against people in transition, or against people who have transitioned. Also, if people do have an androgyne or genderqueer identity and somehow present as such, THAT is something society needs to learn to respect. But no, transition as such is not for others, but for yourself.
~Simone.
She said it.
QuoteI realize that most transsexuals just want to blend in and I would like to as well, that's understandable. I'm just wondering... IF I can gather the courage to go on living as a male and still dress and act as myself (ie. female) then yes I would stand out and yes I would cringe every time I saw myself in the mirror but then I would remember that I'm still being myself in my mind and in my actions and that's what's important. If I can find the courage to do that (and why can't I?) then maybe I'd be setting an example?
I've done that my entire life... although I did not realize it as it was happening. My voice and appearance was male, but
everything else was female. Personality, thinking, the way I treated others, my beliefs. I'd hang out with guys and
could not find agreement with them on a lot of subjects. But in a group of women I felt at home and topics
were always interesting. I was never effeminate, I don't act gay, but clearly I have a female mind, I relate to
female issues, I bond easily to females, I am female. I just wish the outside could have matched what is inside. :(
For me though living like that was not a lifetime solution, I made "being male" work for a long time, but then it was like a
snowball and I had to do something about the outside. I'm not sure why or how it works but for me it's like it grew
stronger and stronger and then GID opens a food gate your HAVE to deal with it. I'm not sure if anyone that is really TS can
deny it for a lifetime. As much as I'd like to...it would be SO much easier, there is just no way I can. If I had to do
it all again, I'd choose to transition young, the regret I feel for missing a large part of my life as Amanda is tremendous.
Amanda
Quote from: Mari on April 16, 2008, 08:58:33 AM
Quote from: Alex on April 16, 2008, 08:37:11 AM
Mari, I'm male considered becoming MtF
i didn't get that since you put 'male' (the blue sign :))as your gender...
Sorry, I wasn't sure how gender icons worked here :p I'll change that.
Amanda, your experience is how I expect my own future is going to unfold. This idea of mind over matter is sort of a pride/honour thing I suppose and it's one of the things enouraging me to avoid transitioning but I don't know how long I would be able to keep that up. Also I would probably be better equipped to live "proudly" and "honourably" in other aspects of my life if I transitioned whereas If I put off transitioning for an idea like this I would probably end up just wishing I
had done instead of making a martyr of myself!
I think if I want a "life solution" then a transition is definitely the best thing to do.
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 09:44:54 AM
I've done that my entire life... although I did not realize it as it was happening. My voice and appearance was male, but
everything else was female. Personality, thinking, the way I treated others, my beliefs. I'd hang out with guys and
could not find agreement with them on a lot of subjects. But in a group of women I felt at home and topics
were always interesting. I was never effeminate, I don't act gay, but clearly I have a female mind, I relate to
female issues, I bond easily to females, I am female. I just wish the outside could have matched what is inside. :(
For me though living like that was not a lifetime solution, I made "being male" work for a long time, but then it was like a
snowball and I had to do something about the outside. I'm not sure why or how it works but for me it's like it grew
stronger and stronger and then GID opens a food gate your HAVE to deal with it. I'm not sure if anyone that is really TS can
deny it for a lifetime. As much as I'd like to...it would be SO much easier, there is just no way I can. If I had to do
it all again, I'd choose to transition young, the regret I feel for missing a large part of my life as Amanda is tremendous.
Amanda
Thanks for this, Amanda! You've just put into eloquent words exactly how I feel. Only I'm ftm, but the same thing holds true. The flood gate has just opened and yes I HAVE to deal with it now.
Jay
There's been a similar theory floating around that we would be perfectly content 'as is' if we lived in a more accepting environment.
But we don't transition for society, we transition for ourselves. Most of us anyway.
Take the case of ftms for example:
Western society basically says that women can do whatever they want. Dress however they want. Act however they want. And aside from having to deal with some sexism and discrimination, there's few things women can't do these days.
A female-bodied person has all the freedom in the world to express themselves however they like.
Nobody's really gonna freak if a woman cuts her hair, wears overalls, drives a truck etc.
So ftms basically have permission from society to be themselves.
It can't be about society then.
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 11:13:45 AM
There's been a similar theory floating around that we would be perfectly content 'as is' if we lived in a more accepting environment.
But we don't transition for society, we transition for ourselves. Most of us anyway.
Take the case of ftms for example:
Western society basically says that women can do whatever they want. Dress however they want. Act however they want. And aside from having to deal with some sexism and discrimination, there's few things women can't do these days.
A female-bodied person has all the freedom in the world to express themselves however they like.
Nobody's really gonna freak if a woman cuts her hair, wears overalls, drives a truck etc.
So ftms basically have permission from society to be themselves.
It can't be about society then.
Exactly. That would not dispel body dysphoria, for example.
QuoteAmanda, your experience is how I expect my own future is going to unfold. This idea of mind over matter is sort of a pride/honor thing I suppose and it's one of the things encouraging me to avoid transitioning but I don't know how long I would be able to keep that up. Also I would probably be better equipped to live "proudly" and "honorably" in other aspects of my life if I transitioned whereas If I put off transitioning for an idea like this I would probably end up just wishing I had done instead of making a martyr of myself!
I think if I want a "life solution" then a transition is definitely the best thing to do.
You have to make the right decision for you and I think there is nothing wrong with taking your time. I'm not sure
at 22 I could have handled it but I should have tried :) Good luck, things have a way of working out eventually :)
QuoteThanks for this, Amanda! You've just put into eloquent words exactly how I feel. Only I'm ftm, but the same thing holds true. The flood gate has just opened and yes I HAVE to deal with it now.
Hey Jay! Your welcome :) I'm glad someone got something out of my ramblings :)
QuoteWestern society basically says that women can do whatever they want. Dress however they want. Act however they
want. And aside from having to deal with some sexism and discrimination, there's few things women can't do these days.
A female-bodied person has all the freedom in the world to express themselves however they like.
Nobody's really gonna freak if a woman cuts her hair, wears overalls, drives a truck etc.
So ftms basically have permission from society to be themselves.
It can't be about society then.
I can't put into words how much I think that sucks(sry) and how un-fair I think that is.
Who is it in society that controls MTF's? Women? Men? Both? I'd say both men and women equally.
What about media? You never see the media (unless they get pregnant) talk about FTM's.
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on May 20, 1970, 03:34:16 PM
QuoteWestern society basically says that women can do whatever they want. Dress however they want. Act however they
want. And aside from having to deal with some sexism and discrimination, there's few things women can't do these days.
A female-bodied person has all the freedom in the world to express themselves however they like.
Nobody's really gonna freak if a woman cuts her hair, wears overalls, drives a truck etc.
So ftms basically have permission from society to be themselves.
It can't be about society then.
I can't put into words how much I think that sucks(sry) and how un-fair I think that is.
Who is it in society that controls MTF's? Women? Men? Both? I'd say both men and women equally.
What about media? You never see the media (unless they get pregnant) talk about FTM's.
Amanda
Oh don't apologize. I don't like it either. It is grossly unfair. Was just using it as an example why transitioning is about much more than societal freedoms. Because theoretically, an ftm can behave as 'male' as they want.
QuoteWas just using it as an example why transitioning is about much more than societal freedoms. Because theoretically, an ftm can behave as 'male' as they want.
Yea... understand Nero... that was not directed at you... it was directed at society... society sucks :)
You know... I've never thought about this... way too wrapped up in ME...do FTM's have some of the same
transition issues that MTF's have? Or is it a much easier process for them?
I sorta asked something similar once in The ultimate self-acceptance? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5801.msg41822.html#msg41822), wondering if it was possible to "just be who you are" without a physical and social transition.
For me, apparently that'd be NO, lol.
~Kate~
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteWas just using it as an example why transitioning is about much more than societal freedoms. Because theoretically, an ftm can behave as 'male' as they want.
Yea... understand Nero... that was not directed at you... it was directed at society... society sucks :)
You know... I've never thought about this... way too wrapped up in ME...do FTM's have some of the same
transition issues that MTF's have? Or is it a much easier process for them?
In some respects. It's much easier physically to go from female to male. Easier to add than take away. T pretty much fixes everything. Except of course, you girls have it much easier with the genital reconstruction.
I'd also suspect that most ftms have less social reconditioning because of the freedom women have in society.
A lot of times for mtfs, it was conform or die, I'd suspect.
Quote from: soldierjane on April 16, 2008, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on April 16, 2008, 09:06:40 AM
Transition isn't about making society happy - it's about bringing your gender identity and physical sex in line with one another. Where society DOES need education, is on not discriminating against people in transition, or against people who have transitioned. Also, if people do have an androgyne or genderqueer identity and somehow present as such, THAT is something society needs to learn to respect. But no, transition as such is not for others, but for yourself.
~Simone.
She said it.
Just want to second it.
The philosophy of transitioning
It's a very hard thing to do successfully and it shouldn't be taken lightly. Only a small per cent can physically look like a genetic female and it's not all it's cracked up to be. It takes hard work to get it right and sometimes when you think you've got it right, you haven't got it right at all...
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 12:43:53 PMIn some respects. It's much easier physically to go from female to male. Easier to add than take away. T pretty much fixes everything. Except of course, you girls have it much easier with the genital reconstruction.
On another board I DON'T frequent anymore a couple FtM's ate my lunch when I said that. That board really disrespected fully transitioned women. Genderqueer, androgynes, CDer's and FtM's could say anything, but MtF's were held to a different, super PC standard. I thought it was a kind of misogyny, so I left.
Quote from: Beyond on April 17, 2008, 08:01:49 AM
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 12:43:53 PMIn some respects. It's much easier physically to go from female to male. Easier to add than take away. T pretty much fixes everything. Except of course, you girls have it much easier with the genital reconstruction.
On another board I DON'T frequent anymore a couple FtM's ate my lunch when I said that. That board really disrespected fully transitioned women. Genderqueer, androgynes, CDer's and FtM's could say anything, but MtF's were held to a different, super PC standard. I thought it was a kind of misogyny, so I left.
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the World
John Lennon
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the world
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the world
Think about it...do something about it
We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the world...yes she is
If you don't belive me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Ah yeah...better screem about it
We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother then
We tell her home is the only place she would be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the world...yes she is
If you don't belive me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Yeah (think about it)
We insult her everyday on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb
Woman is the ->-bleeped-<- of the world...yes she is
If you don't belive me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Yes she is...if you belive me, you better screem about it.
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
Quote from: Beyond on April 17, 2008, 08:01:49 AM
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 12:43:53 PMIn some respects. It's much easier physically to go from female to male. Easier to add than take away. T pretty much fixes everything. Except of course, you girls have it much easier with the genital reconstruction.
On another board I DON'T frequent anymore a couple FtM's ate my lunch when I said that. That board really disrespected fully transitioned women. Genderqueer, androgynes, CDer's and FtM's could say anything, but MtF's were held to a different, super PC standard. I thought it was a kind of misogyny, so I left.
Well, it's true. There's much more work involved for mtf just to pass. Surgery is more difficult for ftm but the rest isn't.
I mean you gals got electrolysis, voice work, and FFS for many. T pretty much covers all that (on opposite side of course) for us.
Very well could be some misogyny. It's so deeply ingrained in our culture, at times it's hard to see. Subconsciously some still can't fathom why someone would transition to the 'weaker, lesser sex'.
Late to the party... but wanted to throw my 2 cents in regarding the differences between M2Fs and F2Ms.
It is indeed true that F2Ms can pass more successfully once on hormones (and I say once on hormones because pre-T, most F2Ms are just labeled as being 'dykes' by society, as they still retain feminine features but dress and behave masculinely). Most F2Ms look like young men (which is annoying if you're going on 30 and people think you're 17/18 and treat you as such), but most can pass in society.
It's also true that it's harder for M2Fs to pass because of the irreversible effects of testosterone. Not many can pull it off (passing), unless they undergo a lot of surgeries. Once those surgeries are performed, most can pass in society.
However, the surgeries that M2Fs can undergo to feminize themselves are far more successful than those afforded to F2Ms (for masculinization).
Look at it this way, a M2F can undergo a plethora of surgeries and the end result is usually that she can pass as a genetic female, in intimate situations, unless scrutinized by a well trained eye. A F2M could NEVER pass as a genetic male, in intimate situations, because of the inferiority of the lower surgeries offered. Even an untrained eye could look at a F2M who has undergone lower surgery, and know he is not a genetic male (a phalloplasty is just -obviously- not going to pass, and a metoid still does not look male enough to allow passing).
I saw a thread earlier where M2Fs were discussing when to tell someone about the fact they're trans. Many replied that they wouldn't tell, or wouldn't tell unless it was serious. M2Fs have that advantage, later on, of passing -that- well. A F2M will always have to tell the moment sex (or nakedness) becomes part of the equation...because they aren't going to pass.
...and I'm rambling now. I suppose it's a trade off...F2Ms can pass more quickly, but not on an intimate level, whereas M2Fs have a more difficult time passing initially, but eventually can pass completely, naked or otherwise.