i have read some artcles (both ts related, and not) about index and
ring finger lenght ratio which says that usually woman have shorter ring
than index finger and men have vice versa...
you can read about this and see the picture here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-01-23-finger-ratios_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-01-23-finger-ratios_N.htm)
woman also have their elbows standing at certain angle form their body
while men's arms go straight down form the shoulder...
so what if (like in my case) a biological male (xy karyotype) has both of
these features?
i am also in the proces of being diagnosed either ts or is so would like to
know how having these particular traits could help
No, this has nothing to do with whether you're TS or not. If you are TS you will feel a strong urge to be a part of the opposite sex you were born. You need to look inside, not outside.
Finger-length "science" and how you carry your arms as a determining factor for being TS is just bunk.
EDIT: For the record, I have same length index/ring but I have known transwomen who don't and are not less women for that.
well inside it is all very clear... but now i am focusing on my phsical sex
i have some intersexed characteristics and recently came across this
angel and finger ratio as another
you can read more about ti here, page 3
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,26579.40.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,26579.40.html)
i am dealig with doctors with very little understanding and konwledge
about my situation so any feedback is welcome...
I don't know if it is "bunk" or not but I will tell you what I've read.
All babies start out the same and the mothers hormones determine the sex, brain sex and body features. If everything
proceeds normally a proper baby develops either male or female. But if the proper amounts or the timing of the
hormones are off things go wrong. Testosterone affects the index to ring finger ratio and the elbow angle
and brain sex. The proper amounts of Testosterone cause men to have an index finger that is shorter than the ring finger.
You can easily see the elbow angle if you hold your arms at your sides and turn your palms out facing forward. A
mans elbows allow the lower part of the arm to hang straight down and his little fingers easily touch the upper
thigh. A womans hands will be a few inches or more from her thighs. The reason I've read is so that the
arms clear the wider hips of a female.
Both of these are traits a TS MIGHT present with and I've read that a normal man will never have the
elbow angle of a woman BUT a TS MIGHT have the elbow angle of a man. A man will never have the
elbow angle of a woman. If you were ever told "you throw like a girl" when you were a kid the elbow angle
is probably part of the reason. I had to make major adjustments with my shoulder to come close to a proper
arm position and release when I was a kid. I never knew what the problem was until I found out about the
elbow angle. Both these have been scientifically studied and I think a little goggling will turn up the papers.
In my case my index and ring finger lengths are identical and I have female elbows. Since I've found this out
I've studied men and womens hands and when I get the chance I've talked about the elbow angle. In my small
sample I've not found a male with either trait and every GG has the traits.
So the theory goes that if you have these two traits your brain sex might also be affected. Like I
said I don't know if that is real science or not and we may never know but SOME of us do have
those two traits.
But Jane is so right... none of that matters... it's whats in your mind and heart. I was looking for
clues that explained my TS so I can relate to what you are doing but for me I just had to accept it and
then deal with it.
Amanda
Not sure about the finger thing (seem to recall there actually being something to that from the womb or some such) but the whole 'arm carry angle' thing is bogus.
Some lady by the name of Melanie something or other started that.
Yes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
And now this lady's got every TS checking their arms. Just wishful thinking.
Hi Nero, I don't have a link but I remember reading a scientific study about it
so I tend to believe that it's at least been looked at. The conclusion as I recall is
what I stated.
QuoteYes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
I've got it :) So maybe I'm not genetically male? I'd really love that... it would explain a lot... but I highly doubt that.
Hope you are feeling better :)
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 10:06:37 AM
Hope you are feeling better :)
Amanda
Thanks. :)
Well, I could be wrong, not that it's been known to happen. :laugh: Were the studies with TS? Cause it just seemed like something this Melanie person 'invented'.
Girls with Turner Syndrome (46X) have a pronnounced carrying angle (about twice as the regular GG population). What this means I have no idea but it's worth noting.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.medscape.com%2Fpi%2Feditorial%2Fcmecircle%2F2002%2F2155%2Fslide29.gif&hash=824e07ecd2ea85ff875cc89b4bee042ddeebaad8)
Cutie!
Source: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6)
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 09:22:11 AM
Not sure about the finger thing (seem to recall there actually being something to that from the womb or some such) but the whole 'arm carry angle' thing is bogus.
Some lady by the name of Melanie something or other started that.
Yes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
And now this lady's got every TS checking their arms. Just wishful thinking.
If the arm angle is real I have it. My fingers might also be the same length but my measuring methods were crude and i must admit bias. However my arms are extremely clear when I turn my palms forward my hands shoot out 3-4" from my sides it takes pressing my upper arms into my ribs to the point of pain to make contact and they bounce right back out the moment i relax my muscles. Other than this I've always assumed i had a normal but thin male body. Odds are this will all turn out to be urban legend and elbow angle isn't a male/female trait. But if it is it will be the first clear evidence there is something different about my body and not just my mind.
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 10:06:37 AM
Hope you are feeling better :)
Amanda
Thanks. :)
Well, I could be wrong, not that it's been known to happen. :laugh: Were the studies with TS? Cause it just seemed like something this Melanie person 'invented'.
The focus was on hormone levels during fetus development. TS was mentioned as a possible indication of improper hormone
levels and it noted that many TS's have the female elbow angle. Melanie may have improperly tied it to TS but the study
talked about it being clearly a female trait that men will not have. But with all that said, you can find two studys I'm sure for
ANY topic that says the exact opposite.
I know for me, I have female elbows, I don't know if it means anything but maybe someday we will. Everyone should
poll all the men in their lives and see how many have a female carry angle. I've not found any that do yet but
I've only sampled maybe 10-15.
Amanda
Posted on: April 16, 2008, 11:36:23 AM
Quote from: soldierjane on April 16, 2008, 10:32:56 AM
Girls with Turner Syndrome (46X) have a pronnounced carrying angle (about twice as the regular GG population). What this means I have no idea but it's worth noting.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.medscape.com%2Fpi%2Feditorial%2Fcmecircle%2F2002%2F2155%2Fslide29.gif&hash=824e07ecd2ea85ff875cc89b4bee042ddeebaad8)
Cutie!
Source: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6)
Uggg.... mine are about like the little girls... maybe I have Turner Syndrome too. LOL.
Amanda
i don't think Melanie "invented" this, she just brought it to attention
as far as i have read on different places, the conclusion is that females
tend to have more prominent arm carrying angle than males
I haven't found any study about transsexuals and carrying angle.
here is one article aboutcarrying angle in man which also concludes the
statement http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2)
Quote from: Mari on April 16, 2008, 11:50:52 AM
i don't think Melanie "invented" this, she just brought it to attention
as far as i have read on different places, the conclusion is that females
tend to have more prominent arm carrying angle than males
I haven't found any study about transsexuals and carrying angle.
here is one article aboutcarrying angle in man which also concludes the
statement http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2)
So, it's saying some men do have it?
By the way... Melanie who?
Quote
So, it's saying some men do have it?
That study says male range ends about 10 degrees less acute than the female range. LOL... yes
I'm going home tonight to measure my angle, thanks :)
In the men I've seen there pinkies easily touch the thighs... I can't do that at all even if forced without
turning my elbow.
Amanda
Posted on: April 16, 2008, 12:24:47 PM
QuoteBy the way... Melanie who?
The only Melanie I know that is a well known TS is Melanie Phillips.
Well my arms are on backwards, what does that make me?
Armackwards?
wrong.
A poor waiter.
lol.. I guess your good at scratching your own back?
There have been a number of studies about finger length (digit ratio) in transsexual people. I took part in one undertaken a Charring Cross GIC in the late 90's.
As I understand it the digit ratio of xx women and transsexual is the same when taken as a group but that it is only a statistical correlation and not an indicator for any individual.
I have this link to one study.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9
Ann
Thanks Anonymouse :) I've not seen that one before but it had similar results. This study was done in
Munich, Germany in 2005.
Here are a few excerpts:
"We present novel data that strongly supports a role for biological factors in the etiology of male transsexualism
insofar that MTF display female-typical sexually dimorphic features that have been previously proposed to be
influenced by prenatal androgen exposure."
"If we assume that prenatal androgen exposure has a partial influence on the 2D:4D ratio our data
suggests that males experiencing lower than normal levels of androgen during prenatal developemnt
are more likely to develop transsexuality contrasting with the higher-than-normal prenatal testostorne
levels that have been found in some studies of male homosexuality.
"In summary our study lends support to the view that there is a biological
basis for male to female transsexuality and hints at a causal role for
prenatal androgen levels."
The study does say the right hand for right handed MTF's the ratio is more toward the female range than
for left handed MTF. And the difference is really small. The control group female was .97 and
males .953 with MTF's being almost the same as the control females for the right hand.
I think my ratio is exactly 1.0, there is no visible difference in lengths on either hand.
Amanda
I have both the arm angle and finger length ratio for a female. Now I'm going to have to check other people out all the time. How funny.
Too bad you don't get time off therapy for having feminine traits. LOL
I don't really know about the carrying angle ... I've actually messed with it intentionally at different times in my life, so who knows?
My digit ratio is just about dead even, so i guess that means I'm a woman with poor spatial skills and no particular musical talent. Well, one out of three ain't bad.... :-\ Oh, well. So much for applying averages to individuals. I'm not really all that into etiology anyway. :)
I found this paper on arm carrying angles.
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t04/i1/jalt04i1p14.pdf
I have feminine elbows, if only I had the hips to go with it!
The "Melanie" you guys have cited is possibly Melanie Phillips. Although she is hardly the only "Melanie" who has transitioned. But, you better check her sites quick. She's been removing them as she wants to do other things in life than be a professional TS. Zythyra had a news post indicating that a month or two ago.
N~
QuoteI don't really know about the carrying angle ... I've actually messed with it intentionally
There may be some confusion here it's not how you carry your arms... it's the angle between the upper arm
and forearm when your palms are facing out. Males have a fairly straight arm and females have arms
that jut out away from the body... the theory says to clear wide hips.
I have female elbows and my index and ring finger are identical lengths. If you believe the theories
having those body traits are a marker for improper hormone levels as a fetus and the same improper
levels of hormone are thought to cause transsexuality.
I also have a very small skeletal body frame for a male, small jaw, small feet and hands which are also
thought to be determined by testosterone levels.
Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it :)
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 29, 2008, 05:43:16 PM
Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it :)
I suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.
Which is why I am perfectly fine with 'carry-angles' and my longer-than-ring-fingers index fingers.
N~
Okay, but I don't always type what I am thinking.
QuoteI suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.
Absolutely :)
Amanda
You were teasing NicHole, Amanda. >:D
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.
Quote from: Nichole on April 29, 2008, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 29, 2008, 05:43:16 PM
Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it :)
I suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.
Which is why I am perfectly fine with 'carry-angles' and my longer-than-ring-fingers index fingers.
N~
Okay, but I don't always type what I am thinking.
While it's interesting as anecdotical data and helps understand the phenomenon of TSism better, it's hardly what it seems sometimes: external validation and who has more of it.
Carrying angle
Men have 173, women 168, that's just 5% difference (180% is straight).
And women have shorter arms, so the actual space that it would
give the hips by mid arm (where the arm hits the hip)
would be maybe 1 inch over men (that's not a lot).
Men have smaller angle, but longer arm, so the distance off from being straight
is can be bigger than a women even with the smaller angle.
As an example, for me, a female carrying angle gives me 1.5 inch horizontally more at
the tip of my fingers than with a male carryng angle. (3.5 VS ~ 2 inch).
So, they're not sure why it exists, not for the hips, though it seems to be due
to very early lack of T exposure, like the digit ratio difference.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.
Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.
:laugh:
Quote from: Floating on May 01, 2008, 11:23:10 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.
Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.
:laugh:
Wot, add some frills?
From the wikipedia:
When the arm is extended, with the palm facing forward or up, the bones of the humerus and forearm are not perfectly aligned. The deviation from a straight line (generally on the order of 5-10°-men, 10-25°-women) occurs in the direction of the thumb, and is referred to as the carrying angle (visible in the right half of the picture, right). In females the carrying angle is greater than in males.[3]
Sounds like we all have a carrying angle.
Is it any coincidence that the finger used to pick your nose is relatively longer in women? ;)
25 degree seems extreme, as carrying arm, the study pointed earlier in the thread had
carrying angle of 12% average for females, 7% for males. About 1-1.5 inch difference on
average at the end of the arn's infers.
Of course, there is a curve around the average, so I don't doubt there are 17 deg women and 2 deg males, but 25%, woooaa, that's an handicap.
AaargghhH!!! Units!!! Do you all mean degrees? (Percent and inches are not degrees. So I'm confused as to what you're saying.)
12 degrees is about 1/5 radians; 7 degrees is about 1/8 radians. So if a forearm from elbow to fingertips is 15 inches, then the deviation from straight is 15/5=3 inches for a woman or 15/8=2 inches for a man on average (at least, after a lot of rounding).
That seems like a reasonably large effect, at least within the context of the generally subtle things that help us to visually differentiate between men and women (beyond obvious but changeable things like hair, sress, makeup, musculature, breasts...). On the other hand, I don't think this particular effect is one that most people notice, consciously or subconsciously. That goes for the finger length thing too. But I guess I'm getting into issues of passing rather than etiology.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on May 01, 2008, 08:44:56 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 11:24:30 AM
Quote from: Floating on May 01, 2008, 11:23:10 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.
Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.
:laugh:
Wot, add some frills?
ooooh, a frilly spleen sounds absolutely fabulous!
i'm thinking of adding an extra "e" myself, so i will have a spleeen.
Not a spleene, Ash? The seventeenth century Brit way!!
N~
espleen, sounds like a convertable sports car
I was thinking about this a couple of days ago and I remembered something that my friend was telling me when I was alot younger. He became really obsessed with werewolves and vampires. He even had stashes of holy water in his backpack - just in case.
Anyway, I think I remember him talking about ring fingers. I couldn't find an exact source.. BUT...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_do_werewolves_live
and
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010000.php
here are a couple of things I found with a quick googling.
Apparently long index fingers are a sure sign of being a werewolf. ^_^
I don't really believe the finger ratio. Most guys I know, ring and index is about the same.
There is another thread floating around here somewhere about this topic. I have both the girly elbow and matching length fingers, and i'm a guy. There are also a few other physical features I have that I consider more feminine than masculine.
There have been in many studies and the ring/index finger ratio has been proven to indicate the level of
hormones at key times during pregnancy. What it causes or indicates is still unproven.
Most if not all guys I've seen, especially athlete's all have the male type ratio. The higher the T the bigger
the ratio. One thing to keep in mind is the difference is VERY small.. only a few mm.
Amanda
I have a very female ratio (extreme even) yet was a top athlete everywhere I went,
was ranked fifth in Canada in High Jump.
Though, my frame is very slight, which means even a lower amount
of muscles can power me up :-).
Add me to the female finger and arm club... ;) I have female results on both test... very interesting .... :)
gina
My sister is 'double jointed' and can bend her elbows back at such an angle that it looks almost like a deformity. When she was younger she could easily bend over backwards and touch the floor behind her with her hands.
But to get back on topic, I have observed the "carrying angle" phenomenon of many women and I would say that over 90% of genetic women display this feature and also the ability to bend or curl the fingers back at a greater angle than most men. The latter is a very definitive female characteristic, put to good use when gesturing.
Those like me who were not born with these features can exercise and practice in order to achieve greater suppleness in the joints of the fingers, wrists and elbows, which can help us to conform better to genetic female characteristics. Danae Doyle deals with this issue in one of her helpful tutorial videos.
Louise
I've always been able to put both legs behind my head, no effort at all,
but so can male acrobats so I don't know if it means much.
Very interesting. I knew about the finger ratio thing, and I do have a female ratio. I compared it to several male coworkers and none of theirs was even close mine. I didn't know about the elbow thing, but I do indeed have it!
-j
Quote from: Always Amanda on April 16, 2008, 10:06:37 AM
QuoteYes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
I've got it :) So maybe I'm not genetically male? I'd really love that... it would explain a lot... but I highly doubt that.
I can assure you that both Ellie's and my arms are the same way.
Quote from: Fiona on April 29, 2008, 04:59:30 PM
I found this paper on arm carrying angles.
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t04/i1/jalt04i1p14.pdf
I have feminine elbows, if only I had the hips to go with it!
I do have the hips. And while Ellie's hips aren't as big as mine, they are definitely not male.
One little bit of subterfuge I've picked up is to keep my elbows in, which naturally mimics a more feminine arm angle. I'd love it if my arms fell that way naturally, but they don't. Still, it gets to be second nature after a while. Gorilla arms with the elbows out and knocking over the ming vases just don't get it.
I agree that none of this really matters, but I guess it does feel good to find out that you have a male trait (for FTM's).
But for the record, my index finger is about a centimeter shorter than my ring finger. And when I stand with my palms facing forward, my pinkies are less than an inch away from the top of my thighs.
that's weird.. my ring finger is longer (on that bbc male/female brain test i measured something like .96 ratio) .. and my arms go straight down..
and i have broad shoulders, small hips.. pretty much no hips in the butt area
..almost like i shoulda been a guy...
or maybe i'm just wishfully thinking
so if the TS angle isn't true, how come this boy's index fingers are shorter than his ring fingers, one substantially so? I'm all ears... :icon_ihearu:
Correlation is not causation. And |r|<1.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 16, 2008, 01:11:21 PM|r|≤1
Okay, I'll grant r=1 is a measure zero subset. ;)
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 16, 2008, 02:14:38 PM
Okay, I'll grant r=1 is a measure zero subset. ;)
Klein aber sein. ;D
Simple just cut the ring finger shoter and carry barbells with your thumbs facing out
Okay, but not for this data set. We're not living in Huxley's Brave New World yet!
I don't know. Sometimes I feel like we're left turning in the wind.
Well, my ring is longer than my index finger and my lower arm angles out so far my hand doesn't come anywhere near close enough to touch my hips without forcing them to do so. My conclusion? I don't care. I know who I am. It is very interesting though. I had not previously heard of these studies.
My problem is when using my mouse on my lap top with my index finger my pinky finger sticks out above my hand and it is making my hand hurt
Does your pinky finger stick out above your hand while doing things ??
Um... I don't get that. My thumb holds the left side of the mouse, my pinky finger holds the right side, and the other three fingers are on the two buttons and the wheel.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 23, 2008, 12:56:03 PM
Um... I don't get that. My thumb holds the left side of the mouse, my pinky finger holds the right side, and the other three fingers are on the two buttons and the wheel.
I think she is talking about the
touchpad on a laptop, not a regular mouse.
Quote from: postoplesbian on December 23, 2008, 12:41:42 PM
Does your pinky finger stick out above your hand while doing things ??
Yes, when I drive my car, I never put my pinkies on the steering wheel. They just stick out there uselessly.
Noo i mean on a laptop where you just use your index finger to move the mouse over the screen not a movable mouse
yes a touch screen :)
Yea my pinky fingers seem to be useless and i never really use them for anything
This came up on google search...OMG.. I was doing research for someone else.. I had already looked into this long ago..
It is worth mentioning my carry angle is nearly 30% and finger index super female 1.07
However this does not mean others are not trans if they do not have these secondary sex characteristics...
Cause of being trans is not known and there are most likely several causes we may never understand.. it is what it is..
Keri
The digit ratio seems to be somewhat sexually dimorphic but it tends to also vary with ethnicity.
People of my ethnicity have a less than 1 digit ratio, male and female. It's not universal but I've seen quite a few cis women with a lower digit ratio. Mine is about 1.01 or so.
Carry angle is pretty much as a woman's would be.
I believe it was HughE who was pointing out that a lot of trans people have physical characteristics of women in many respects. This as they theorized is a form of intersex. I guess so. Well, whatever. I am who I am.
My carry angle seems like a woman's. But I asked my male partner to do the thing and see how far his arms stick out and there's no way his is just a straight line down either. My finger ratio is like the heterosexual men's according to the study on the ratio and sexuality. My little finger doesn't stick out.
Even though I know that these are merely trends and many cis women don't fit the stereotypes in every particular these kind of measurements always make me doubt myself and get unhappy. I try to avoid thinking about them, but it's not easy. I think my carry angle might be good, but I know that my finger ratio is no where near. But then most of my girlfriends' aren't either.
My index and ring fingers are the same length. And just for fun, I found the following statement...
And finally... To discover if you have a male or female brain, clasp your hands together so your fingers entwine. Now look at your thumbs. Which thumb is on top? If you are a man, the odds are it will be the left thumb. If you are a woman, it is more likely to be your right thumb.
Right thumb on top suggests the left half of your brain is dominant, which scientists believe gives you the more female attributes of being verbally skilled and having empathy.
Left thumb on top suggests the right half of your brain is dominant and that you excel in the male attributes of being visually and spatially aware
Just did it and the left thumb was on top. Doing it the other way feels very strange and not at all the instinctive way I arrange my hands when doing that.
We might as well take the full battery of tests! (http://www.quirkology.com/USA/Experiment_AnalyseYourself.shtml) :laugh:
Quote from: kittenpower on November 02, 2015, 02:08:52 PM
My index and ring fingers are the same length. And just for fun, I found the following statement...
And finally... To discover if you have a male or female brain, clasp your hands together so your fingers entwine. Now look at your thumbs. Which thumb is on top? If you are a man, the odds are it will be the left thumb. If you are a woman, it is more likely to be your right thumb.
Right thumb on top suggests the left half of your brain is dominant, which scientists believe gives you the more female attributes of being verbally skilled and having empathy.
Left thumb on top suggests the right half of your brain is dominant and that you excel in the male attributes of being visually and spatially aware
I did not know this.. interesting... and yes my right thumb is on top.. weird as it is..
Anyway going out with friends Friday night.. I will ask the guys to clasp their hands together but I don't dare tell them why or what it means... not that it means that much.. I think....... LOL..
Keri
aaahhh..... just to reinforce I've always been the odd one out. Left hand , index and ring fingers same length. Right hand ring finger longer. Turn my palms forward and edge of my hands a good 7-8" from thighs. Clasp my hands and right thumb always on top. But I'm left handed so science says I should be right side brain dominate ! Geeez I never seem to fit in anywhere ?
Quote from: lostcharlie on November 04, 2015, 09:44:56 AM
aaahhh..... just to reinforce I've always been the odd one out. Left hand , index and ring fingers same length. Right hand ring finger longer. Turn my palms forward and edge of my hands a good 7-8" from thighs. Clasp my hands and right thumb always on top. But I'm left handed so science says I should be right side brain dominate ! Geeez I never seem to fit in anywhere ?
Your not lost your just you...!!!
Keri, thanks for the kind words. working on accepting me, just hard getting rid of 58 years of accumulated baggage.
Quote from: lostcharlie on November 05, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
Keri, thanks for the kind words. working on accepting me, just hard getting rid of 58 years of accumulated baggage.
I know.. its hard but just knowing and admitting who you are is a big step to finding peace..
Keri
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on November 02, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
Just did it and the left thumb was on top. Doing it the other way feels very strange and not at all the instinctive way I arrange my hands when doing that.
Exactly the opposite for me. Always would put my right thumb over, the other way felt so strange, almost like i was not interlocking my fingers at all.
This is strange. Even though I am AFAB, my ring finger is noticeably longer than my index finger; like the "man" hand.
When I look up "woman's hand" on google, most of the ring fingers are the same or less than the index finger.
I'm genuinely surprised by this. I thought everyone's ring fingers were naturally longer than their index fingers until I saw this.
And just so you know I'm not saying this just because I'm a dude, here's my hand
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi460.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq326%2Freddashboard%2Flkjkljk%2FSnapshot_20151120_2_zpsdkcz8wwz.jpg&hash=a2f1cc22a16cc434711fe062b05e8000972c3cc8) (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/reddashboard/media/lkjkljk/Snapshot_20151120_2_zpsdkcz8wwz.jpg.html)
Very weird
Also should add, I'm not heterosexual. I'm bi.
My index finger is much longer (and my hands are bigger than most girls i know). When i heard the index finger thing the first time i was told it indicated lesbianism, but I'm bi, leaning strongly towards guys. I guess that might be a case of conflating gender and sexuality but I've always thought it was just one of those fake internet facts...
Great, never noticed the whole carrying angle thing. Mine's definitely over 10-degrees, and now I can't help but feel like my arms are crooked! :'( I guess they'd have to be at an angle to accommodate my hips though.
Quote from: iKate on November 01, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
I believe it was HughE who was pointing out that a lot of trans people have physical characteristics of women in many respects. This as they theorized is a form of intersex. I guess so. Well, whatever. I am who I am.
Yes, there's a number of bodily characteristics which are collectively known as "Eunuchoid habitus", and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. Way more of us MTF and transfeminine people seem to have this type of body structure than is the case for cis males, which is another thing pointing to trans being a kind of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals.
Here's the complete list:
* long, slender arms and legs
* a leg length that's significantly greater than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height.
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female "escutcheon" or pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* difficulty building upper body muscle
* feminine facial features and a generally feminine appearance (soft chubby features rather than hard muscular ones; gracile bone structure etc).
* gynecomastica
* other things such as female digit ratio (index finger equal to or longer than ring finger); female carrying angle; absence of acne as a teenager; long, luxuriant eyelashes and comparatively small, high arched feet (in my case anyway).
It's more noticeable during your teens and twenties, after that testosterone (even at below normal male levels) has masculinized your body to the point where you don't stand out any more. All the things involving bone structure (digit ratio, leg to trunk ratio etc) are still there though.
I took a photocopy of my hand, measured my fingers and did the math, My ratio .99 or something like it, That apparently puts me right in the middle of where women fit. So I started to have a look and see what else might be considered a "tell" and I seem to have few things like my hair that I have been told all my life women would kill for... not so much now I have a high-ish forehead with a not over pronounced ridge... I have long thick eyelashes and big eyes. So I guess there are more and maybe one day I will even do the other body measurements
Quote from: sarahtokes on November 20, 2015, 04:33:50 PM
I took a photocopy of my hand, measured my fingers and did the math, My ratio .99 or something like it, That apparently puts me right in the middle of where women fit. So I started to have a look and see what else might be considered a "tell" and I seem to have few things like my hair that I have been told all my life women would kill for... not so much now I have a high-ish forehead with a not over pronounced ridge... I have long thick eyelashes and big eyes. So I guess there are more and maybe one day I will even do the other body measurements
I wonder how many of those tells i have too. The finger ratio and the thumbs offset from the body thing. I also have really long eyelashes, thick hair, fairly big eyes, no adams apple, gynecomastia, larger hips and butt,. I wonder how many of these are "hormones in the womb" based. I do have a squarish jaw though.
This is interesting... I have quite a few feminine features, including small body frame, small hands, and small feet. My 2D:4D digit ratio is also 1 (both same size when I measured on my right hand). My arms go outwards or away from my body as well like that of a female.
I guess it shouldn't be that surprising that some of these characteristics are found more in those who identify as transgender. Although since there is an overlap, not having these features wouldn't exclude someone from being transgender... since there is overlap between sexes. :)
On my left hand my ring finger is longer than the index finger. On my right hand it's opposite: my ring finger is shorter than my index finger. So what does that make me?
I've also learned (in elementary school) that if your middle and index fingers are the same size you're a werewolf.
Who ever knew that finger size isn't just random genetics and could tell so much about a person? (That's sarcasm. We trans people have enough to be dysphoric about without having to worry about things like finger ratios.)
We do. But I also kinda wish there was some overarching physical features that can be traced back to pre-birth development (such as skeletal) to being trans, so that the idiots out there who think we're all just doing what we do to screw with people, or because fad, would STFU.
Quote from: Contravene on January 09, 2016, 12:42:06 AM
On my left hand my ring finger is longer than the index finger. On my right hand it's opposite: my ring finger is shorter than my index finger. So what does that make me?
I've also learned (in elementary school) that if your middle and index fingers are the same size you're a werewolf.
Who ever knew that finger size isn't just random genetics and could tell so much about a person? (That's sarcasm. We trans people have enough to be dysphoric about without having to worry about things like finger ratios.)
That is typical.... but as the OP of this its not the rule for everyone..
Its just an interesting thing and does mean something in the overall population.. google it..
Keri