I'm a genetic male, but I've known for a long time that I'm mtf to some degree. I am thinking about completely transitioning to living as a woman, but I think there is also a possibility that I'd be happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Has anyone else done this?
I think a few of us would desire something similar but I think getting the hormones legitimately will be difficult. Also I suspect that passing as a male would become difficult with facial changes and breast growth. The transitioned MtFs would know more about this as many have taken hormones for some time before going full time as a woman. I know a few people here have transitioned then backed away some - perhaps they will have some advice.
But I think it would be good to take a look at why you want this. Is it to feel better but avoid the pain of publicly changing (people are going to notice though)? Will it be enough without the public recognition and will it be worth it? You would be kidding yourself if you think you could hide this from your wife, she will know (I'm assuming this is one motivation for still presenting as male - slap me if I'm wrong, no offence meant but if there was some sure way to have it all and keep the wife then life would be much better for many of us)
Another option is to look at low dosages of hormones to get some of the psychological benefits (if there are any) without too many physical changes, or at least very slow change. I don't know if this is healthy or possible and again I very much doubt this would be easy to obtain legitimately through the 'system'.
EDIT - Sorry I'm being a downer. I have heard of people that are males in their working life but female when they get home. So I guess why not. If you mange it and it will work for you then it is a definit possiblity.
QuoteI'm a genetic male, but I've known for a long time that I'm mtf to some degree. I am thinking about completely transitioning to living as a woman, but I think there is also a possibility that I'd be happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Has anyone else done this?
You might be able to do this but breast growth is going to be a problem. What you will find is
that once you start HRT it is really hard to stop if you are really TS.
I think you could hide everything but the breasts.
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 28, 2008, 10:59:40 PM
[What you will find is
that once you start HRT it is really hard to stop if you are really TS.
Amanda
I promised myself I would stop HRT for reasons I have given in other posts. That promise lasted about a week. I felt really ragged and depressed and knew then that stopping it would not be easy, so I started again. You are right, once started it becomes progressively more difficult to function without estrogen. At the moment I love how I feel and what's happening to me, but still am a bit afraid of the consequences as I too present as male most of the time at work and at home, where my GID is a banned subject almost.
I'm not the best one to offer anyone else advice, but to Johnnie I would say, think hard about your reasons for wanting to do this and the consequences. See a counsellor or therapist or doctor and talk it through - unless you really are transsexual you could be making a bad mistake by starting any form of medication without advice.
Quote from: Johnnie on April 28, 2008, 10:05:43 PM
I'm a genetic male, but I've known for a long time that I'm mtf to some degree. I am thinking about completely transitioning to living as a woman, but I think there is also a possibility that I'd be happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Has anyone else done this?
I don't know of any studies or expert opinions concerning the question of the possibility of being happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Personal experiences on the other hand are easy to find. I think of the TSes that have to take the 2nd route are the unpassable ones. I don't know of the success rate of femininized body vs living male. Nor how many continue towards full transition drawn by polar gender.
Though someone with natural androgynous gender traits or identity might find such area comforting. Feeling at home with both.
Gender neutrals, might find it uncommfortable.
I don't know what your "mtf to some degree" meant compared to such advise however.
Can one feel comfortable in between? For me yes. But I am not TS. My feelings go back to having gender identity and body dysmorphia back to a very young age. The in between body feels natural to me.
Quote from: Johnnie on April 28, 2008, 10:05:43 PM
I'm a genetic male, but I've known for a long time that I'm mtf to some degree. I am thinking about completely transitioning to living as a woman, but I think there is also a possibility that I'd be happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Has anyone else done this?
This I'm afraid to say is not that easy, even though a low dose is being taken changes are going to happen, may take longer but will take place, and you will hit the point of no return (where its getting rougher to pass as male) and now the question what do you do when you reach that point?....Trust me chest binding is a whole lot more uncomfortable then tucking, I'm sure any of the FtM guys will tell you of the problems of chest binding. Johnnie please understand I'm not giving you a rough time, but I want you to understand the negative aspects of a choice like this could be. Please give it good thought and counseling would be an excellent start. :)
gina
Now that my wife has agreed to let me start hormones, this looks like it will actually happen.. Just thought I would try to jump start the conversation.
Since I was reading this yesterday (for the umpteenth time, but each time it seems to be with a new perspective), I though I'd share this:
Quote from: Andrea JamesYou can hide the effects of hormones from others for as long as you want in virtually every case. Those who say they can't seem to want people to notice.
linkGod bless Andrea James for her stellar web site and all her other work. :icon_bunch: :icon_love:
--
Also: from the SoC (version 6, page 14):
QuoteCan Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgury or a Real-Life Experience?
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following minimum standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgury, or who are unable to do so. In some patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need for cross living or surgury.
I have done that very thing for many years, without elaborating as to how and once the girls grew to a certain point I wore a binder, but those days are gone now :)
Quote from: marriedtgdad on April 28, 2008, 10:05:43 PM
I'm a genetic male, but I've known for a long time that I'm mtf to some degree. I am thinking about completely transitioning to living as a woman, but I think there is also a possibility that I'd be happy presenting as a man but having a more feminine shape and outlook.
Has anyone else done this?
My case is a little different from yours. I'm also a genetic male. I never think about gender issue too seriously. My gender expression is generally a mixture of both masculinity and femininity although feminine side is stronger. I'm happy with my male presentation. I don't want hormone replacement therapy, but I want sex reassignment surgery; I want a vagina. Then I can be happy without being too masculine. Besides, I want a relationship with a man in which I can make love to him like a genetic woman does without being a woman
Does anyone think that I'm out of my mind?
Minh
Quote from: symempathy on November 03, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
My case is a little different from yours. I'm also a genetic male. I never think about gender issue too seriously. My gender expression is generally a mixture of both masculinity and femininity although feminine side is stronger. I'm happy with my male presentation. I don't want hormone replacement therapy, but I want sex reassignment surgery; I want a vagina. Then I can be happy without being too masculine. Besides, I want a relationship with a man in which I can make love to him like a genetic woman does without being a woman
Does anyone think that I'm out of my mind?
Minh
If you are, there are two of us. Up until now, I thought I was the only one. :laugh:
Quote from: symempathy on November 03, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
My case is a little different from yours. I'm also a genetic male. I never think about gender issue too seriously. My gender expression is generally a mixture of both masculinity and femininity although feminine side is stronger. I'm happy with my male presentation. I don't want hormone replacement therapy, but I want sex reassignment surgery; I want a vagina. Then I can be happy without being too masculine. Besides, I want a relationship with a man in which I can make love to him like a genetic woman does without being a woman
Does anyone think that I'm out of my mind?
Minh
You can want that but it would be difficult to do, If you get SRS you will loose your Testis... Its possible you could take T shots to replace what you've lost or would you take nothing?
Quote from: spacial on November 04, 2010, 07:02:17 AM
If you are, there are two of us. Up until now, I thought I was the only one. :laugh:
This was exactly what I wanted too before I started down my path towards surgery. I have my consult scheduled and I have a tentative timeframe as to when my surgery will happen. PM me if you want to know further details. I will not publicly post as I do not wish to offend the administrators of this site for posting information being not to the standard path everyone is familiar with.
I should perhaps clarify my position here.
I responded to demonstrate that my current aspirations are similar to symempathy.
However, my motivation is that my situation makes full transision difficult if not impossible.
I have minimised my aspirations down to removal of my ugly bit. Though there seems little prospect at this time, sadly.
While this would result in a loss of male hormones being produced, it would make it necessary to have some HRT. It is equally possible to use male HRT as female, in these circumstances.
Ashley. Thank you. I am sending you a pm and will be very interested. However, I don't believe that the administrators of Susans' would have any serious objections to you posting these. This is, after all, a site for people with gender issues, however these are expressed.
Quote from: spacial on November 04, 2010, 10:24:59 AMI don't believe that the administrators of Susans' would have any serious objections to you posting these. This is, after all, a site for people with gender issues, however these are expressed.
With the administrators of this site, one can never be too certain or too safe.
To lose your testis means your T production is slashed considerably. The Adrenal glands still make both T and E though. At the most, you'd need a low dose of E (like the kind post-menopausal women get) to maintain bone health. A low dose like this may induce some feminization, but it will be mild and will take some time (I'd guess 1 year before any real change occurs.)
Quote from: pebbles on November 04, 2010, 07:46:42 AM
You can want that but it would be difficult to do, If you get SRS you will loose your Testis... Its possible you could take T shots to replace what you've lost or would you take nothing?
Right. I acknowledge that I will lose a significant source of testosterone production. I don't know whether I need to take testosterone pills. I may lose my sex drive or most of it, and I'm willing to take that chance. Being a Vietnamese and raised in a traditional society for 18 years before coming to the US, I have not had sex yet although I'm almost 26 years old. Now I'm much more open about sex, but I will not just jump on some guy. I want love, and I want good intimacy. That's why I want to have a vagina. To be honest, I don't feel embarrassed to say that I mirror heterosexual couples. After all, I don't identify myself strictly as man or woman. I accept the fact that I was born a male, but I'm pretty much an androgyne, a feminine but not effeminate one.
As a male, my sex drive is generally low but not too low. I don't have huge urge to have sex with anyone, and if I really do it, I will do it out of love, not just for some temporary physiological satisfaction. Therefore, I think losing my testicles won't make a huge difference.
Minh
Quote from: Aidan_ on November 04, 2010, 12:19:42 PM
To lose your testis means your T production is slashed considerably. The Adrenal glands still make both T and E though. At the most, you'd need a low dose of E (like the kind post-menopausal women get) to maintain bone health. A low dose like this may induce some feminization, but it will be mild and will take some time (I'd guess 1 year before any real change occurs.)
I get your point although I don't know that adrenal glands can make estrogen. I know from my anatomy & physiology that they make androgen, but I have not heard it can make estrogen.
I'm happy with my male presentation although it may not be an ideal one because I'm quite feminine, so I don't think I will need estrogen. Testoterone maybe.
Quote from: symempathy on November 04, 2010, 03:38:06 PM
I get your point although I don't know that adrenal glands can make estrogen. I know from my anatomy & physiology that they make androgen, but I have not heard it can make estrogen.
I'm happy with my male presentation although it may not be an ideal one because I'm quite feminine, so I don't think I will need estrogen. Testoterone maybe.
Oh duh, you're right. Estrogens are made by the liver, not the adrenals. Sorry!
Quote from: spacial on November 04, 2010, 10:24:59 AM
I should perhaps clarify my position here.
I responded to demonstrate that my current aspirations are similar to symempathy.
However, my motivation is that my situation makes full transision difficult if not impossible.
I have minimised my aspirations down to removal of my ugly bit. Though there seems little prospect at this time, sadly.
While this would result in a loss of male hormones being produced, it would make it necessary to have some HRT. It is equally possible to use male HRT as female, in these circumstances.
Ashley. Thank you. I am sending you a pm and will be very interested. However, I don't believe that the administrators of Susans' would have any serious objections to you posting these. This is, after all, a site for people with gender issues, however these are expressed.
So you actually want to become a woman, don't you?
If so, I'll say go for it. It may be difficult for you at first, but I think it will be worth it. After all, you must have had a female in you who is waiting to come out but can't due to some circumstances.
I want a vagina for a different reason. And for the sake of lacking of words, I use the word vagina because I don't know how to call it. It's more like I want my genitalia to be inverted instead of exposing out like normal biological males. I don't care if it looks like a real vagina. I simply don't like the way my genitalia is.
Thank you for your response, symempathy.
I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.
I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.
All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.
To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.
I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.
I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.
Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.
symempathy,
I apologize in advance if my response is offensive; I am only curious about a very different perspective -_-;;
Reading your posts it seems like you identify as something that is not really man or woman, and you're okay with your expression right now but you want to be on the receiving end of sex. Would it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak? It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar. Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.
I'm not sure from what you've said in this thread whether the outie is a source of distress/disgust for you, but I don't by any means think you should settle for keeping it if you do not want to. I only mean that you can still enjoy receiving sex as a woman even if you have it. I'd be curious to hear if that appeals to you, because it seems like a worthwhile option to me, but I could be missing an important difference because of my opposite-ish attitude to the situation T_T
spacial,
It makes me a little sad to hear you are limited in expressing yourself as a woman because other people don't want to see it. As a petite/femme/cute boy who feels forced into being a girl, I feel like I can relate somewhat. I'm sure you've heard all the advice/hopeful speech before, I just want to remind you that you aren't as lonely as you think. I hope you find the fulfillment you seek, whether it involves any transition or not.
Thank you Shiinee. That is very much appreciated.
Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 09:06:22 AM
symempathy,
I apologize in advance if my response is offensive; I am only curious about a very different perspective -_-;;
Reading your posts it seems like you identify as something that is not really man or woman, and you're okay with your expression right now but you want to be on the receiving end of sex. Would it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak? It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar. Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.
I'm not sure from what you've said in this thread whether the outie is a source of distress/disgust for you, but I don't by any means think you should settle for keeping it if you do not want to. I only mean that you can still enjoy receiving sex as a woman even if you have it. I'd be curious to hear if that appeals to you, because it seems like a worthwhile option to me, but I could be missing an important difference because of my opposite-ish attitude to the situation T_T
Thank you for your post. You're not offensive. You only say your opinion.
To tell you the truth, before I could identify myself, I had always mirrored heterosexual relationship.
To me, it's not that the relationship involves a woman and a man. It's more about the involvement of masculinity and femininity. And I don't have a clear distinction of these two characteristics. It's just more like a feeling.
I have met some men who are introverts or almost introverts, sensitive, never swears, quiet, yet they are masculine. I am also an introvert; I don't socialize; I work out a lot; I don't swear; I don't like gossiping, yet I'm feminine.
I have been around many men, and the ones I feel attracted the most are the ones who are soft and quiet. I still see masculinity in them.
I know that I'm more like a woman in this aspect. It's just that I don't feel like one.
Back to what you say about going back door, I want a vagina because I mirror the way heterosexual couples have intimacy. I don't idolize them, nor do I hate "intimacy from the back". It's just that the idea never happens to me.
I don't find the way my genitalia looks disgusting. Because I'm generally more feminine than masculine, I prefer that particular organ to be inward.
Quote from: spacial on November 05, 2010, 07:34:35 AM
Thank you for your response, symempathy.
I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.
I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.
All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.
To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.
I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.
I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.
Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.
I understand what you say. Being different makes it hard for us.
Appearance definitely contributes a lot in people's perception of who is a man or woman because it's so obvious.
Although my situation is not better than yours, I'm perhaps luckier than you. At least what I want is hidden inside, and no body can find out unless I let them. What you want shows outside, and it may make you uncomfortable because people can judge you.
I can't tell you what to do. I hope that your taking female hormones and presenting yourself as a male is REALLY what you want to do. Eventually people will have to get used to it.
Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 09:06:22 AMWould it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak? It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar. Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.
I know you were not directing this to me, but I just have to comment.
People have often told me the same thing and I do find it objectionable. I have tried that hole, granted with a non-bio cock, and it does nothing for me. To suggest that the front hole is just as good as the back hole is preposterous. Just because your experience in the back hole is good, doesn't mean that it is for someone else. I wish people would stop making this suggestion when I talk to them about my gender/body incongruence.
There can be no comparison with penetration in the back hole with penetration in the front hole. The experience is completely different and unrelated. For back hole penetration as male bodied, the only comparison to this for the non trans woman is, well, back hole penetration. Sure, the back hole can give you the feelings that come with of being penetrated, but just being penetrated in such a way isn't the point.
Quote from: symempathy on November 05, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
To me, it's not that the relationship involves a woman and a man. It's more about the involvement of masculinity and femininity. And I don't have a clear distinction of these two characteristics. It's just more like a feeling.
I have met some men who are introverts or almost introverts, sensitive, never swears, quiet, yet they are masculine. I am also an introvert; I don't socialize; I work out a lot; I don't swear; I don't like gossiping, yet I'm feminine.
I have been around many men, and the ones I feel attracted the most are the ones who are soft and quiet. I still see masculinity in them.
Thanks for sharing with me, this will give me something to think about today since I don't think I understand the ideas of masculine and feminine particularly well. Mostly I feel like a boy, which is not feminine but doesn't feel particularly masculine either. Best of luck in becoming yourself <3
Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 05:02:05 PM
Thanks for sharing with me, this will give me something to think about today since I don't think I understand the ideas of masculine and feminine particularly well. Mostly I feel like a boy, which is not feminine but doesn't feel particularly masculine either. Best of luck in becoming yourself <3
Thank you for your kind words.
I can only use the words feminine and masculine to describe myself. It's hard to see it through behavior. I'm quite sure if you see me in real life, you may only think I'm a sensitive and nice man. You may not see my femininity. I don't express it conventionally like other genetic females or effeminate men.
Perhaps my brain is somewhat female-like, but it's not enough for me to desire transition.
Quote from: spacial on November 05, 2010, 07:34:35 AM
I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.
I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.
All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.
To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.
I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.
I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.
Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.
I sincerely wish you luck. However, I don't think you should go half way if your true desire is to let your inner woman shine out.
Absolutely you may face difficulties; however, your inner woman will guide you through it. Don't go half way as I want to do.
After all, my goal for SRS is not the same as yours. I identify myself as an androgyne, so I'm content with the way I look right now. In the future I might change my mind. I know that I may be rejected by other men or resented by other transsexual people. I may have to be alone for a long time, even for the rest of my life. I have mentally been prepared for that. If I had a boyfriend right now, I would tell him the truth about what I want. I may lose him, but I can't be unfair or lying to him.
You have a good heart when you are worried you will hurt people you love. I'm worried too. I don't want to hurt my parents. I don't care about other relatives because they don't sacrifice for me as my parents do. Living for them is more important than living for myself because they deserve a good son. When they pass away in peace, I can do whatever I have to do.
I hope you can find your way to be yourself.
Bigender bio guy here. I have been on full transition level HRT for closing in on a year. I present publicly as either gender each week and passed fine as female & male without hormones. I had no choice but to start HRT to control my severe GD.
The relief from my GD has been a godsend. I'm a 5' 10" 146 pound beanpole and the physical changes from HRT have not affected my ability to present one way or the other. I lost a lot of hair on my arms, legs & chest, and a huuuge amount of upper body bulk. I always had great pecs, now they're a set of 36A's- about perfect for a bigender (I don't have to wear a binder and a pushup is all I need to get a little more curve).
I have off-the-shoulder length surfer hair, had laser/electro to remove my facial hair except for the Van Dyke area I wanted to keep, and my electrologist cleaned up my eyebrows to a kind of natural feminine look. But I do not wear ANY andro clothes, just strong stereotypical female/male styles depending on how I am presenting. I rarely get misgendered as girl and NEVER as a guy.
I'm fairly sure that mast people see me as male as I have a thick full beard I have been on Female hormones for probably 18 months I can't hide who I am on an emotional level but when forced to dress male nobody can tell that I have A cup breasts I think most people who see me in my normal "gender ->-bleeped-<-" presentation assume that I'm flat chested with padding when I'm A cup with padding to fill C cup australian bra size 20C I think that is about 42C US size
QUESTION: if breast growth is the only real give-away, couldn't you just remove them and pass off as a male that way on HRT?..would the breasts just grow back?
I guess you could call me an androgynous..I'm a guy, I don't really have the desire to be 100% woman or crossdress (though I do love wigs, eyeliner and on occasion lipstick haha I just don't care to wear skirts or dresses) but rather just be a really feminine-looking guy..think David Bowie or Brian from Placebo. I guess you can say my main reason for looking into HRT in the first place was to reduce body hair...I'm a fairly hairy guy, and even with electrolysis and stuff I fear the hair will just grow back eventually due to my hormones (I'm noticing more and more little hairs growing in places they never grew before, and I'm way past puberty, I'm 19 now) and also if I could reduce the hair significantly with hormones and then do a bit of electrolysis, well that's less money down the drain...I don't need to be 100% smooth, just less of a wolf and I'm not a masculine guy at all I'm very effeminate so it'd be nice to have a slightly more feminine appearnace. I know impotence is another side-effect, but I don't enjoy sex to begin with and have virtually no sex drive so it wouldn't be much of a loss..and I hear sometimes you might get more hips and butt, which sounds fun to me though I have the body of a stick (I'm 52kg, 5'7) so I don't know if I'd see much of that.
But yeah, not sure where to begin...most people I try and talk to this about look at me like I'm stupid or crazy or just think I should accept what I have been given..but reality is, I am very unhappy with what I see in the mirror, I'm uncomfortable within myself and that amongst other problems have lead me to contemplate pretty dark things that I won't get into detail here..but I just feel feminizing myself a bit would make me much more comfortable in my skin and I feel I'd be somewhat happier. I'm hoping to find people who are more open-minded who would be willing to at least take me through my options in detail in regard sot hormones, pros and cons and all of that without just saying "you can't do that" and leaving it at that. It's frustrating when no one understands or at least the very least willing to sympathize, understand or hear you out.
A few years ago on another forum there was a member who went through HRT to having SRS but continued to present as male in everyday life because of the very senior position held.
I believe that this changed only on retirement.
Caroline
Quote from: carolinejeo on December 02, 2010, 04:01:27 AM
A few years ago on another forum there was a member who went through HRT to having SRS but continued to present as male in everyday life because of the very senior position held.
I believe that this changed only on retirement.
Caroline
How is it possible that one can present as male after taking HRT for a long time? The hormone will change a male body into a female body, won't it?
I believe it is fine, but I don't understand why he has to put himself in a difficult position.
The changes of hormones are very slow and if you continually present most people will not really notice, only people who don't see you for a while may see changes.
However, as I said, this situation changed on retirement (I think at 55) and so is no longer a problem.
Caroline
the changes from hormones are very slow and what they can change is limited less body hair because that is caused by T (asuming you are also on T blockers) body fat relocation it won't move fat from one place to another but new fat is most likely to be in more fem places but your bone structure will not change. Just taking hormones will not stop you passing as Male,you may after a few years need a binder. This is all dependent on your age though T causes a lot of changes that are not reversible if you have been through all those changes I think it is all over by about 30 then passing as male while taking hormones may make you look like a "pretty boy" with softer skin and less hair unless you work toward passing as female(hair removal & stuff) I doubt you would bet to a point where you would not be able to pass you may need a binder after a while.
Quote from: Virginia on November 08, 2010, 05:08:33 AM
Bigender bio guy here. I have been on full transition level HRT for closing in on a year. I present publicly as either gender each week and passed fine as female & male without hormones. I had no choice but to start HRT to control my severe GD.
The relief from my GD has been a godsend. I'm a 5' 10" 146 pound beanpole and the physical changes from HRT have not affected my ability to present one way or the other. I lost a lot of hair on my arms, legs & chest, and a huuuge amount of upper body bulk. I always had great pecs, now they're a set of 36A's- about perfect for a bigender (I don't have to wear a binder and a pushup is all I need to get a little more curve).
I have off-the-shoulder length surfer hair, had laser/electro to remove my facial hair except for the Van Dyke area I wanted to keep, and my electrologist cleaned up my eyebrows to a kind of natural feminine look. But I do not wear ANY andro clothes, just strong stereotypical female/male styles depending on how I am presenting. I rarely get misgendered as girl and NEVER as a guy.
It's really awesome to hear you say this it gives me hope for my GD, I'm on full HRT now and identify as gender queer. I'm a couple months into the HRT and so far my biggest kinda of worry is how big will my chest get if really at all.
I've been on full dose HRT testosterone for almost a year now. I still present female and never get questioned about it. My voice has dropped significantly, I grow a beard and have to shave every other day, but as long as I'm in female clothes...everyone assumes me female. Easy peasy.
Your story sounds just like my story. But like you, I said enough is enough and asked my doctor for a prescription for estrogen. He referred me to a shrink. I said no problem and I told her my whole story. She recommended me for the perscription. The doctor still said no. No problem, I believe the prescription was about $60.00 for a 6 month supply. I started taking the pills and I never felt better. I believed I could do this forever. My breast started getting bigger and I even started wearing a "man bra". Then it all came crashing down upon me. The problem nobody mentioned. My voice changed a lot. At first, people would give me odd looks when I was talking with them. My voice just did not match their perception of me. I think most people did not notice it consciously but, unconsciously it was very apparent due to the pitch in the voice. I am sure there are numerous studies on the subject. Yes, people will treat you differently. That may be good, that may be bad. I end up changing jobs and it took almost two years for my voice to almost change back. You never said what you do for a living, but in my case I was a corporate executive. We all make decisions in life. I am glad that I did something; however, in the end I could not make it work. I hope someone can benefit from my experience. The problem with learning through experience is you always get the test first. Good luck.
No offense trekrider, but I don't believe anyone gets a voice change from estrogen, unfortunately. Many of us wish we would. Only training makes changes, although experimental surgery seems to be coming along slowly. Estrogen will not raise your voice. Now testosterone will lower a FTMs' voice.
I am a private practice PT so I answer only to my patients/clients and the bottom line. I don't think I can be too in your face about all this and still retain new patients and clients. The mild breast enlargement is still at the point that I can hide it pretty well, but not if they get much bigger. Essentially, I have a moderate case of glandular gynecomastia now, where I had none before. While I have seen a measurable difference in my breasts since starting PM (pueraria mirifica), it's taken quite a while and isn't all that impressive in the grand scheme of things, which is why PM would probably NOT be an acceptable alternative to HRT for a transitioning MtF. That, and there is no regulation of herbal supplements, so there is some risk involved (what ARE they putting in those capsules?!) But then, even with big-pharma meds you can't be 100% sure of what's in them either! However for me, the risks involved with PM are so much less than HRT (I work with brain injured folks all the time, and the risk of a thrombotic event for a male my age is just too great), that it's a 'no brainer', except that I did do months of research on both.
I guess the changes I like the most involve the more psychological side of things (more even tempered, less angry, things like that), but especially the significant decrease/change in my typical male libido. It's such a relief not feeling like I "need" an orgasm every day. I can still function as a male in the bedroom, but now it's on my terms and when I decide to feel aroused, rather than at the mercy of feelings and 'needs' I didn't seem to be able to control. I continue to work out and do yoga, and haven't seen any decrease in strength, stamina or energy so far, but then I do tend to push myself quite hard and might be making up for slight changes there with sheer determination. I seriously doubt anyone would notice any of the other changes I mentioned in my previous post, at this point. I have not experienced any voice changes, and everything I've read about HRT indicates that hormones don't affect the pitch or timbre of the voice. I couldn't begin to guess why that happened for tekrider, but one of the tenets of natural breast enlargement is that everyone is different, and what works in some way for one person, won't work or won't work in the same way for someone else. Even with HRT, there is no consistency of breast development; some get abundant growth, some get adequate growth, and some get almost none. Everyone is different and each of us will have a different response to the same drug or herb.
Hope this helps clarify my previous post.
Chrissy
I would have no trouble believing that the psychological release from taking E can allow someone to let out their inner fem. Perhaps allow them to change their inflections, word choices, etc. But it isn't being caused by the E. Trekrider inferred that a physical voice change was a "hidden problem" of taking it. I don't believe it and have seen no evidence of it either anecdotally or scientifically. Some statements are just wrong, not YMMV or a simple difference of opinion.
I have taken Estrogen off and on for the last two years and I present as male publicly or when others are at home. Only when I am alone do I present totally as female. The changes I have are subtle but real nonetheless. I now have A cup breasts and at times I do wear a bra under a jacket or thick sweater without attracting unwanted attention. When I work out it is uncomfortable not wearing a bra so I use one to avoid excessive bouncing. For now I am able to conceal them without any real effort but would be pleased if they get bigger. My butt, hips and thighs are slightly rounder than last year and none of my pants fit the same as they once did!
When I first started coming to terms with the GD, I wanted to be as feminine as I could possible be and still do sometimes. But I have reached a point in my life where feminine presentation is not as important to me as it once was. I recognize several factors blocking my forward progress (ie. work environment, fianances or the lack thereof, family issues) that remain to be dealt with. I still use Estrogen for keeping the dysphoria at bay but at a much reduced doseage than I was on. While changes will occur they will be over a much longer time frame and I am good with that. I once was in a hurry to see change but nowadays I don't think about it so much and I am much happier and pleasant to be around-or so I am told.
I am unaware of any new research that tells us Estrogen use will raise the pitch of a voice ravaged by testosterone poisoning. I am a singer and have not had any pitch change but would definately welcome it were it to occur. The more I learn the more I see there is to learn so I cannot say that Trekrider has not had some shrinking of the vocal cords and associated structures. It would definately be unusual if this were the case.
Getting back to the original question-I present as male and while I am presently content with where I am I do this only out of necessity as I still identify as mtf. Gender is such a 'fluid' concept always changing shape and consistency. Who is to say for me that won't change someday-I can't.
Randi
As mentioned, hormones cause many changes, and you need to be prepared to deal with all of them. I took estrogen for a number of years, then tried to stop. Like many others, I didn't like being off estrogen. For me at least, it almost seems like I'm addicted to it. So after some time of being off it, I began taking it again. And still do. I had an unexpected result this time though. Although I had developed breasts while being on it the first time, this time my body seemed to have an even greater reaction to the estrogen. Possibly because I've also been taking a drug for a prostate problem. Whatever the reason, the breasts I still had from taking estrogen the first time began to start growing again, only faster and to a greater extent and in a more pointed shape. I'm still taking estrogen and still presenting and living as a male, but now I have large pointed breasts that I'm unable to hide, no matter what I wear. Being of average weight makes them even more obvious. I'm getting used to the looks I get, but this is one of many things you have to consider. It's commonly said that males who take estrogen are lucky to end up with more than b cup breasts, and you can get an idea of what your size will be by your nearest female relatives. Those two statements aren't always true. I'm proof of that.
I was on hormones for three months (with the full intention of transitioning via MTF surgery at a later date, but I won't get into why that didn't happen right now), which left me with a very generous amount of extra breast tissue I'd literally spent years trying to hide under loose clothing that quickly became something of my fashion trademark...
Now, as someone who has since found inner peace as a genderfluid person, I'm happy to emphasise what I've still got when presenting in full girl mode, though for a little further "gender->-bleeped-<-ing" my partner thinks it's great if I keep a little of her preferred rough side on show as well, including arm/leg hair plus my stereotypically English smile.
To conclude, I'd be a hypocrite to suggest there is a problem with changing your body to a more feminine one then attempting to continue passing as a male, since I did just this for over a third of my life and will keep doing so when I'm not challenging the binary system by expressing myself in a way that I've neglected for too long.
On the other hand, my job means that I will have to tone down certain aspects of this newly-freed identity, yet at the same time I can imagine colleagues may prove more understanding if I was to come out as looking to become a woman rather than subverting their rigid boundaries and expectations of how I look from one day to another.
P.S. I'm new here, and one thing you'll soon find about me is that I'll probably end up being the last person to swear online. Being a college-level literature student and aspiring professional writer, I firmly believe in defending the once fine art of not liberally using profanity. Besides, I happen to think that asterisk works great in this context!