that is not true. i think that christianity doesn't have enough trust in the power of goodness. labeling every person a sinner is the same as saying that wickedness is an innate trait, and i strongly disagree with that notion.
I have no idea what their problem is, but I imagine that it has something to do with the first BORN humans being born outside of Eden. I guess the idea is that the sin of the parents was passed on to their progeny.
Is that a word? Progeny?
Um ... because it's verifyably true.
Have you never sinned? Do you know anyone who hasn't? I sure don't.
Okay, there's the argument about infants, whether they have the capacity to actually sin. Fine. But by the time any person is 10 years old, they've got a pretty long rap sheet of sins, albeit probably "small" ones.
Humans are innately good
and wicked, at least the ones I've met. Most Christians believe in the power of good to overcome sin; that's the whole point of the religion.
(Just to nitpick -- Christians actually belive that every human
except one sinned.)
Quote from: O.E.D.progeny, n.
1. a. Offspring, issue, children; descendants. Occas.: a child, a descendant; a family.
was wondering when you'd return to the sport of bating christians.
First of all, there are a variety of branches of Chritianity. You are making a judgement that all Christians say that, just like some Christians make the judgement that all people are sinners. Same over-generalization, isn't it?
Second, "sin" is a religious technical term. Don't particular religions have the right to define their religious technical terms as they see fit? The Catholic definition of "sin" is different from the Orthodox definition is different from the Evangelical definition and so on. Why should you care about how they split their hairs?
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 01, 2008, 03:40:47 PM
Why should you care about how they split their hairs?
Jealousy I reckon
This is one aspect of my religion I don't really subscribe to. I believe the original idea behind the Adam and Eve story has been tainted. Think it only meant to say that humanity is imperfect.
Not everybody sins. How the hell can a child sin?
To sin is to go against what you know to be right in your own heart.
Ok, the exact reason that Christians say that every person is a sinner out of the chute, (Except one, but he wasn't completely human since he was part godstuff) is because of that evil woman Eve. Even though she was tempted by the Satan-snake beyond her ability to resist. Additionally, after she became a sinner, she tempted Adam (by some accounts with her feminine wiles) and he too became a sinner.
Because of that, the landlord kicked them out of the garden, forced Adam to take up rake and hoe when before all things were given them. And he caused Eve to suffer greatly during childbirth. (I kind of wonder about that was since Eve didn't give birth until *after* they left Eden, so how could she know it was greater suffering?)
He also damned the snake and Satan too. At least he was consistent.
And the landlord said that all their descendants would be damned as well because of their transgression. I think that was kind of immature for a being that is supposed to be infinite and ageless.
It wasn't until he sent his son (which was himself) to earth to suffer and die did that sin get forgiven. But only to the select few who accept the landlords son as their Saviour and are baptized in his name. That is why children who are baptized are considered to be without sin as all is forgiven at that point.
Depending on which branch of Christianity you accept, those who came after Adam and Eve but before the landlords son are damned and are in hell. Also those who have not heard of Christianity or reject it are also damned. This from the guy that knows all and sees all.
-Sandy
Quote from: Kassandra on May 01, 2008, 03:52:08 PM
Ok, the exact reason that Christians say that every person is a sinner out of the chute, (Except one, but he wasn't completely human since he was part godstuff) is because of that evil woman Eve. Even though she was tempted by the Satan-snake beyond her ability to resist. Additionally, after she became a sinner, she tempted Adam (by some accounts with her feminine wiles) and he too became a sinner.
Well, that's
one brand of Christianity.
Take Bob Dylan's advice: Don't criticize what you can't understand.
Combine that with Jesus's advice: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
So if you want to bash Christians and Christianity without making an effort to really understand the deep issues that they have spent millenia contending with, then it takes some cheek to complain about some of them who bash transsexuals and other gender nonconformists without making the least effort to understand our condition.
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets, and their ideas can hardly be touched on in the context of a Web forum. If you have issues with the Christian notion of sin and actually want to understand it, you can start with Paul's letter to the Roman church (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans;&version=31;). But it's not exactly light reading.
I was not taking issue with Christianity (well maybe a little), as much as I was attempting to answer the specific question I.E. "why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"
I think everyone has had some passing taste of the bible and its stories. The genesis stories are some of the most well known. Also standard Christian dogma regardless of the denomination holds that Christ died for our sins and that everyone who accepts him as his personal Saviour is saved.
These are the things I explained, perhaps a bit casually, but that was what I was attempting to do.
I will not trot out my particular spiritual affiliation or the amount of spiritual searching I have done. That is not germane.
I was not Christian bashing. And I apologize if that is the way it came out. It was not my intension.
-Sandy
Okay, Sandy, understood. I'll refrain from criticizing your spiritual journey. That is certainly not my intent. And I apologize for being perhaps a bit too prickly.
My post wasn't directed at you, though, or really anyone in particular. It was more of a general concern about how people often discuss deep things without maing any real effort to understand them. It's a pet peeve, and this is the type of discussion that can easily go that way.
"Why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"
Because there is not an ounce of "christianity" within them ....
Their "book" is used as a bigoted and predjudicial "sham" ....
It gives them an excuse to condemn anyone not like them (ha! ha ! ha !) to "eternal damnation", and is an excuse for them to mount a high horse and preach their inane vitriol.
I was born an innocent child .... but some so called "christians" would condemn me for my sexual orientation and gender identification, both of which I was born with too !
I don't need "salvation", I need principles to live by .... Jesus offered those guidelines using "God" as an allegory .... God doesn't exist, Jesus did, and I sooo hate organised religion twisting Jesus's words to preach hatred, genocide, and as an excuse to enrich themselves in "this world" .... :( ....
Laura
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 06:11:04 PM
"Why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"
Because there is not an ounce of "christianity" within them ....
Their "book" is used as a bigoted and predjudicial "sham" ....
It gives them an excuse to condemn anyone not like them (ha! ha ! ha !) to "eternal damnation", and is an excuse for them to mount a high horse and preach their inane vitriol.
I was born an innocent child .... but some so called "christians" would condemn me for my sexual orientation and gender identification, both of which I was born with too !
I don't need "salvation", I need principles to live by .... Jesus offered those guidelines using "God" as an allegory .... God doesn't exist, Jesus did, and I sooo hate organised religion twisting Jesus's words to preach hatred, genocide, and as an excuse to enrich themselves in "this world" .... :( ....
Laura
Exactly. Jesus was never about hate. No matter who or what He was, he was first and foremost about love and kindness.
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets
But being smart does not make you right. And Paul, yuck. As for Aquinas, how many angels can dance on the head of pin?
I think the concept of original sin (hence the need for baptism to wash it away) is just one more tool for the church to lure people in.
Quote from: tekla on May 01, 2008, 07:09:26 PM
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets
Apart from Luther they were people of their era of primitive knowledge .... Luther needs a whole seperate thread ... ??? ...
Laura
Quote from: Alyssa M. on May 01, 2008, 05:34:59 PM
Okay, Sandy, understood. I'll refrain from criticizing your spiritual journey. That is certainly not my intent. And I apologize for being perhaps a bit too prickly.
My post wasn't directed at you, though, or really anyone in particular. It was more of a general concern about how people often discuss deep things without maing any real effort to understand them. It's a pet peeve, and this is the type of discussion that can easily go that way.
Why should we waste our time thinking? I trust all opinions whether they they are based on knowledge, experience, intuition, or absolutely nothing.
I'm pretty certain this thread is not meant to reveal all great truths. It's not like the ideas of those people like Augustine have had any meaning or effect upon my life. Even if I only graduated from the 3rd grade and spent every single night inhaling alcohol, my opinion would be just as valid as those "great" thinkers.
meant with love,
Rebis
Posted on: May 01, 2008, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: tekla on May 01, 2008, 07:09:26 PM
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets
Apart from Luther they were people of their era of primitive knowledge .... Luther needs a whole seperate thread ... ??? ...
Laura
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman? :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 07:47:46 PM
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman? :laugh:
The Reformation ?
Please don't use humor to cover ignorance ... :o ...
Laura
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 07:47:46 PM
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman? :laugh:
The Reformation ?
Please don't use humor to cover ignorance ... :o ...
Laura
I'm fine with my ignorance. I'm perfectly happy with it. No one can know everything. The things I don't know are known by someone else. :)
Objectively there is not a right or wrong. Morals are subjective. Morals change with culture and time so they are a moving target of the society. Why is sin different in different times and different parts of the world among different people.
QuoteIn philosophy, an objective fact means a truth that remains true everywhere, independently of human thought or feelings. For instance, it is true always and everywhere that '2 and 2 make 4'. A subjective fact is a truth that is only true in certain times, places or people. For instance, 'That painting is good' may be true for someone who likes it, but it is not necessarily true that it is a good painting pure and simple, and remains so always no matter what people think of it. If the painting could claim this, someone who thought the painting was bad would be completely wrong, in the same way someone who says the sun goes around the earth is wrong. So the reliability of mathematics is an objective truth, whereas the beauty of paintings is probably a subjective one
nearly what I was thinking except that I had forgotten to think.
why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?
Guilt
How can you ask forgivness if you are not guilty of sin??
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 08:00:40 PM
I'm fine with my ignorance. I'm perfectly happy with it. No one can know everything. The things I don't know are known by someone else. :)
So why argue in an issue (religion) that is so contentious even in this forum ??
Laura x
My understanding of it growing up was that every human is a sinner because only god is perfect. That's not to say that being a sinner makes you wicked, it makes you human.
Well, if you believe in sin. I don't really. My main problem with Christianity is other Christians, and not all of them, but the loud ones ;). Actually, I just watched a film called Hell House that frankly, made me want to stab people. There was a Judgment House in my hometown, but (thank goodness), I never went. I think it's all about how you view sin. These people (in the movie) consider sin as something that sends you to hell, which basically means that you are expected to be perfect and anyone who sins and doesn't ask Jesus to save and forgive them goes to hell. In the church I grew up in, we were taught that humans cannot be perfect. That didn't mean that it was okay to go out and sin, but if you do sin, your only human and you've already been forgiven. It's just perspective, really...and how literally you take the bible. You know, if Adam and Eve were real people or if the story is a metaphor. I find that the Christians that I think this thread started about (we all know who they are) take the bible literally. There is no room for interpretation or doubt. In churches like the one I grew up in, doubt and interpretation were essential to faith. If you don't doubt, how can you have faith, you know?
I always find it odd that the "christians" who say "god hates queers" and tell us all that we're going to hell and all that other crap, who are so self righteous don't seem to remember that it was the loud self righteous Pharisees that Jesus had so many problems with. Is it better to pray loudly and tell people how much you tithe or to do it in private and keep your donations to yourself? A lot of it has to do with which parts of the bible your religious studies focus on. My church focused on the gospels while the hellfire and brimstone churches focus on the old testament and the epistles (and take every statement literally instead of in context or as an example/parable).
But that's just my two cents...
Posted on: May 01, 2008, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 08:00:40 PM
I'm fine with my ignorance. I'm perfectly happy with it. No one can know everything. The things I don't know are known by someone else. :)
So why argue in an issue (religion) that is so contentious even in this forum ??
Laura x
Because it's fun. :laugh:
Quote from: lisagurl on May 01, 2008, 08:06:30 PM
Objectively there is not a right or wrong. Morals are subjective. Morals change with culture and time so they are a moving target of the society. Why is sin different in different times and different parts of the world among different people.
I disagree. Anything that reduces the utility, efficiency or longevity of the human race in general is objectively wrong because it reduces our potential.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 08:00:40 PM
I'm fine with my ignorance. I'm perfectly happy with it. No one can know everything. The things I don't know are known by someone else. :)
So why argue in an issue (religion) that is so contentious even in this forum ??
Laura x
I'm not arguing. I'm trying to explain my feelings. Not well, however.
'sides. This thread is in the philosophy forum, which means that every point of view is valid.
Your point of view is valid. Your point of view does not invalidate other points of view.
Quote from: CassandraR on May 01, 2008, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on May 01, 2008, 08:06:30 PM
Objectively there is not a right or wrong. Morals are subjective. Morals change with culture and time so they are a moving target of the society. Why is sin different in different times and different parts of the world among different people.
I disagree. Anything that reduces the utility, efficiency or longevity of the human race in general is objectively wrong because it reduces our potential.
I'm not sure the two of you are talking about the same thing. I think by morals, lisagurl is referring to what social behaviors are acceptable. Homosexuality and ->-bleeped-<-, for example. Some cultures embraced these things, others condemned them. In some cases, like with Christianity, some accept and others condemn within the same belief system (theoretically...they are actually quite different in even basic philosophies and beliefs).
As far as reducing utility, efficiency and longevity of the human race...I have to be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, things like murder are always wrong. Killing someone (or a whole group of people) certainly reduces the longevity, efficiency, and utility of the victims (and possibly society, where war is concerned). But as for other things that are considered in the realm of "morality"...I don't know what you mean.
Posted on: May 01, 2008, 09:26:56 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Your point of view is valid. Your point of view does not invalidate other points of view.
Exactly. If we could only get the rest of the world to understand this.
I have it. I have the answer to the question
Quotewhy do christians say that every human being is a sinner?
It's so simple. Someone misspelled the word 'winner'. Or it could have been the word 'dinner'. Either way. I don't think there is such a word as 'sinner' in any existing language on the planet jupiter.
Every human being is a dinner.
Consider it corrected.
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:31:42 PM
Every human being is a dinner.
Consider it corrected.
:-*
Here is an example of that idea I wrote for another forum a few days ago. I felt pretty good about it. The topic is how gay marriage increases the quality of life within a community. I think my reasoning is sound but if not then correct me! :)
People must form attachments to each other to increase their longevity, utility and efficiency. A single human can accomplish little and so they must group together. The traditional grouping is male to female but some people must group with their own sex. Community is dependent on these grouping units, whether they are temporary or permanent. To maximize quality of life a person must interact with the community. Being unable to form a grouping unit with another person of the same sex prevents some people from interacting effectively with their community. Therefore they can not reach the same standard in the quality of life value and so are substandard to those that can.
Effective communities are those that allow for increased quality of life for all of its members. If a large section of a community has reduced quality of life then it brings down the average for everyone. So we must put everyone on the same level in order to optimize the quality of life value.
The same sort of thing could be applied to transsexualism. The human body and mind needs to function correctly for the person to be able to take part in the community and the resources necessary to make the person function correctly are fairly small in our society so its important for it to be done.
That's really good, Cassandra.
Quote from: redfish on May 01, 2008, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Your point of view is valid. Your point of view does not invalidate other points of view.
Ahhh you have foiled my attempt at being a smart-ass D:
Only because you are a sinner, I mean, dinner.
I know I would be a sugary snack because I am bouncy and hyper! And cute! All sugary snacks are cute!
Quote from: redfish the posthuman on May 01, 2008, 09:47:33 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: redfish on May 01, 2008, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Your point of view is valid. Your point of view does not invalidate other points of view.
Ahhh you have foiled my attempt at being a smart-ass D:
Only because you are a sinner, I mean, dinner.
I wonder what my nutritional facts are
You have all the nutrients necessary to sustain at least one human life.
Unfortunately, as far as cannibals are concerned, you may be infected with things that would be unhealthy for them, even if the effect on you is minimal.
Posted on: May 08, 2008, 05:00:32 PM
Quote from: Natasha on May 01, 2008, 02:47:46 PM
that is not true. i think that christianity doesn't have enough trust in the power of goodness. labeling every person a sinner is the same as saying that wickedness is an innate trait, and i strongly disagree with that notion.
To put everybody in the same boat, so to speak. It allows you to take down the 'Holier than thou' types with a simple question.
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: redfish on May 01, 2008, 09:42:43 PM
Ahhh you have foiled my attempt at being a smart-ass D:
Only because you are a sinner, I mean, dinner.
Hmmm... redfish .... fish ... ichthus ... Iesous CHristos THeou Uios Soter ...
Wir essen und leben wohl / in rechten Osterfladen!
BVW4, Mvt. 8. I <3 JSB. :P
(Hey, it is a thread about Christianity...)