Jew Doctor offers 'sex change' for children...
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=775170 (http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=775170)
In the interview, Dr. Spack discussed how his Jewish faith informs his work. His response: "My own rabbi said it best: The transgendered are also created b'tzelem Elohim, in the image of God."
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The level of hatred expressed on this site is truly sad. Not for the faint of heart. I found it yesterday when posting news items and didn't post it, but I kept thinking about it, so here it is...
FWIW, I also happen to be Jewish. I also believe what Dr Spack's rabbi said about transgender people is right on.
Z
I find these men and women to be totally disgusting. And the one who published all the info about Dr. Spack and his wife just smacked of hoping someone would hunt the man down and kill him.
I'm sorry, I like to think I care about people and their feelings, hurts and joys, but this group -- I wish someone would find a legal and humane way to send this lot to some nice, deserted and far away island in the Antarctic.
Know thine enemy.
Thank you, Z. I didn't want this, but I think I needed to see just how terrible some are.
Nichole
I really thought I could tolerate just about any point of view...
*wrong*
I was appalled! And disgusted to the point of nausea. I thought the right wing fundie Christian types were bad, but these (*I'm sorry I really don't have a term of what to call them!*) openly advocate hate!
This is filth I never thought I would see.
Z, you have my condolences and sympathies for trolling through such crap. The history of violence and hatred against the Jews is well known, I never expected to see such open festering hatred though. I guess I am still naive...
-Sandy
Quote from: Zythyra on May 21, 2008, 03:19:28 PMJew Doctor
"Jew Doctor" says it all. The author is a Jew Hater, or he would have written "Jewish Doctor." And, Z, I take offence as much as you do since I am partnered with a Jewish person.
Nazis. That's the word for them. I don't think they'd object one bit, either.
There's no need for the slightest gesture of tolerance toward this type. Tolerance for bigotry and violence is not tolerance at all.
Posted on: May 21, 2008, 05:02:37 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 21, 2008, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: Zythyra on May 21, 2008, 03:19:28 PMJew Doctor
"Jew Doctor" says it all. The author is a Jew Hater, or he would have written "Jewish Doctor." And, Z, I take offence as much as you do since I am partnered with a Jewish person.
Indeed. It reminds me of how many Republicans (including the president) say "Democrat Senator." The intent is the same.
Oh no. That's just hideous.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on May 21, 2008, 05:09:59 PM
There's no need for the slightest gesture of tolerance toward this type. Tolerance for bigotry and violence is not tolerance at all.
Amen to that. People like this truly are scum.
Posted on: May 21, 2008, 05:45:55 PM
Question: Is there anyway to report to someone that they posted the personal info of this doctor and his wife? It's obvious what their intention is here.
This is awful..... :( This is the kind of story that sometimes has horrible endings....wonder how to go about having the site taken down.... >:(
gina
What a disgusting lot of neo-nazi scum! One of them has the slogan 'Tolerance Breeds Decay'. That just says it all!!! Very, very scary people! >:( >:(
Hi Z,
i agree with what you are saying, but i don't agree with posting such an inflammatory, racist headline on Susan's. Such people exist, certainly, but they do not deserve to have their hate messages broadcast further than the lunatic fringe they serve.
I think I just tossed my cookies.
:icon_shrug_no:
Kristi
Quote from: ell on May 21, 2008, 06:33:07 PM
Hi Z,
i agree with what you are saying, but i don't agree with posting such an inflammatory, racist headline on Susan's. Such people exist, certainly, but they do not deserve to have their hate messages broadcast further than the lunatic fringe they serve.
I see it as making people aware of the threat against us and our allies. People like this should be shown as the worthless scum that they truly are.
Thanks for all your responses. I really wasn't sure I should post it, except that we do need to recognize that these attitudes still exist. In my own life I rarely encounter the kind of anti-Semitism that was part of my ancestors daily life, but obviously it's still there. And I certainly see that type of hate transferred to transpeople, especially when gathering news.
A big question in my mind is how to actually achieve our goals of tolerance and equality is this atmosphere. I've always believed that it's important to respect all others as fellow human beings, and maybe if we sit down at the table together and talk, we might reach eventual understanding of each other. To demonize the opposition is to dehumanize them as they do us. But I don't honestly know that I could sit at the table with these people.
Z
PS, I'll delete the link if people think that it shouldn't be here.
As filthy as I felt after reading it ... I can shower and be clean. I really doubt that lot can.
But, I like to know where the enemy is and what the plan is. Leave the link here, Z. As a Jewish person this hits you harder than it hits many of the rest of us. If you can stomach it enough to read and then post the link. Then I think the rest of us should be able to handle it as well. Even if it makes us ill.
HUGS, Z.
Nichole
Zythra
Please don't delete the link. If we start advocating censorship, I fear we (both the Jews here and all members of these forums) will be the losers. Those who hate and fear already are the most potent advocates of censorship. These bigots are people who have been hurt by and who fear progress.
No one has mentioned how much this depended on the original Fox News article which this link quotes verbatim. That article started by mentioning the doctor had a rabbi (i.e., he's one of those people). These people saw it as a plot to cut the fertility of Christians. I wonder if that was the significance Fox intended to hint at.
I, too, was dismayed at the display of personal information relating to doctor and wife. That is an invitation to harassment at the least. As an article in the most recent Boston Globe Magazine noted, we no longer have to worry only about local bigots, but through the internet everyone and anything become a potential target for bigots worldwide. Then there was "The List" that responses alluded to. I couldn't find it with a brief Google search, but that may be the scariest aspect of that site.
Thanks for opening our eyes,
S
From the Southern Poverty Law Center
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=836 (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=836)
apparently, the chumps don't like the FBI or communists either.
Quote from: Simone Louise on May 22, 2008, 03:13:17 PM
Please don't delete the link. If we start advocating censorship, I fear we (both the Jews here and all members of these forums) will be the losers. Those who hate and fear already are the most potent advocates of censorship. These bigots are people who have been hurt by and who fear progress.
I won't delete the link Simone. I was conflicted about posting it, but based on the responses, yes, it's important that we know what peoples attitudes are. I agree, "the list" is the scariest part of that link.
Quote from: Rebis on May 22, 2008, 03:34:12 PM
apparently, the chumps don't like the FBI or communists either.
I don't think he likes much of anyone... he looks extremely angry at the world.
Z
I think its good for people to see the level of hate that exists in the margins. That these are very sick people does not make them any less real, or any less dangerous.
I can't figure out how to handle.
Quote from: Rebis on May 23, 2008, 03:01:03 PM
I can't figure out how to handle.
I can; I'm simply not bothered from the responses by these dumb idiots......
Quote from: Veerle on May 25, 2008, 04:57:54 AM
Quote from: Rebis on May 23, 2008, 03:01:03 PM
I can't figure out how to handle.
I can; I'm simply not bothered from the responses by these dumb idiots......
I see the point to what you are saying. If you allow them to bother you, then you are giving them control over you.
I tried to make a post of education, but apparently you must be approved before your post is shown to others. Censorship like that is kinda disturbing. :-\
The number of masochists on this forum never ceases to amaze me.
We visit a small, insignificant web forum, we see their false, disgusting, and degrading opinion. We decide to reward them by spreading their message amongst our "friends and peers", only giving them more power to hurt us, while in the process emotionally draining our "friends and peers". If this was actual news tnat actually had an impact on our lives that'd be one thing. But going around saying "Look, look! Someone's WRONG on the internet! Let's pay more attention to them! Let's get bent out of shape!" Really,
really baffles me.
Am I the only one that feels this way? Am I the crazy one here?
Posted on: May 30, 2008, 12:22:56 PM
Quote from: Angel on May 30, 2008, 11:23:34 AM
I tried to make a post of education, but apparently you must be approved before your post is shown to others. Censorship like that is kinda disturbing. :-\
You will lose every time, when you try to counter emotion-driven hatred with calm logic. This filth should be ignored!
Quote from: Kirsa on May 30, 2008, 12:24:10 PM"Look, look! Someone's WRONG on the internet!"
Duty Calls
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fduty_calls.png&hash=1af5c8d4ba6bff993192eb602fe7ac90efc67b4f) (http://xkcd.com/386/)
"What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
Quote from: Alyssa M. on May 30, 2008, 12:35:41 PM
Quote from: Kirsa on May 30, 2008, 12:24:10 PM"Look, look! Someone's WRONG on the internet!"
Duty Calls
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fduty_calls.png&hash=1af5c8d4ba6bff993192eb602fe7ac90efc67b4f) (http://xkcd.com/386/)
"What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
You read my mind, Lol
As was pointed out, Kirsa. It's not a matter of obsessing or taking to heart, or even taking axes to them. It's simply knowing that they are there. That one has very nasty enemies.
In a forum like this we often tend to lose track, if we allow it, that there are some people who are simply off-the-wall about us. It can be good, if disgusting, to see their faces and read their words. Not masochistic, simply safer, better informed.
N~
Quote from: Nichole on May 30, 2008, 12:37:15 PM
As was pointed out, Kirsa. It's not a matter of obsessing or taking to heart, or even taking axes to them. It's simply knowing that they are there. That one has very nasty enemies.
In a forum like this we often tend to lose track, if we allow it, that there are some people who are simply off-the-wall about us. It can be good, if disgusting, to see their faces and read their words. Not masochistic, simply safer, better informed.
N~
Surely every one of us know this sort of opinion exists without being witness to it needlessly. I was fully aware of how disgusting humanity was before skimming that forum thread. I simply don't see the point.
Because fore-warned is fore-armed. We would underestimate these people at great personal risk. They are very serious, armed to the teeth, wiling to use those weapons, adhere to no law and they have a tendency to train a lot too. I for one want to know what they are up to. They are the enemy, make no mistake about it. They feel the same way about you too.
I suppose we disagree on 'need' and 'needlessly,' Kirsa. I found the forum disgusting, but did manage to show it to someone else in a position to put these people on yet another "Watch List" (This one governmental) than that of the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Know thine enemy, dear. And no one requires anyone else to actually follow the link. There's a very plain warning about what happens if you do so.
N~
Quote from: tekla on May 30, 2008, 12:53:29 PM
Because fore-warned is fore-armed. We would underestimate these people at great personal risk. They are very serious, armed to the teeth, wiling to use those weapons, adhere to no law and they have a tendency to train a lot too. I for one want to know what they are up to. They are the enemy, make no mistake about it. They feel the same way about you too.
Please be aware, that on the internet, people who are pleasant in daily, real life, often have a more extremist, less sensitive, more outgoing personality online. The perceived anonymity is what does it, these are mostly just regular people IRL, who are not armed and not very serious.The real threat to us are the people who are really armed and dangerous, and don't waste time on silly neo-nazi internet forums.
Mod Badge Donned. Hat as Well.
OK. There's disagreement about how 'needful' the topic is. But, it's been here for a couple of weeks or so and there is no huge outcry over it.
That it's not for everyone's stomach is totally understandable. That some of us think it is important to know is also understandable.
The argument between those people has been thorough and, so far, fairly done.
But, it needs to end about now. The topic stays. The arguments need to pass along to elsewhere. Each side has perfectly understandable and apparently unbridgeable differences.
Can we please move along with it?
Thanks so very much.
Nichole
For those of you who are waiting, No, I have no desire to lock the thread. Instead, the argument about its appropriateness is the thing that needs to end. You are still allowed to post on it as long as it's not a continuation of the argument of the day.
Thanks so much.
Mod Badge and Hat Removed.
I think that is incorrect for two reasons. First, people tend to write a lot closer to what they really think then they speak. We are taught to cover our speech, but often not in our writing. Writing tends to be a clearer version of our real thoughts. If only because it is hard, and takes a lot of practice and learning to be able to do otherwise. People who write lies - opps, write fiction - get paid a lot for it because its hard to write in a voice and character other than your own.
Second, I think that what I read in posts, like in here, or in there, is stuff that people would not tell anyone else. I bet there is a lot of stuff on Susan's that the person writing never told anyone else ever. So, when people who are pleasant in daily, real life, often have a more extremist, less sensitive, more outgoing personality online I'm willing to bet that the daily stuff is a put on, an act, and all ZOG, Mud People, Jew Doctor out to ruin the world stuff is the way they really think. They really think that there is a Zionist Occupational Government in the United States. They are just aware that in the real world, its going to get them many friends. White Power, American Nazis, and the rest are just not all that well thought of, and they hide it. When they let it out, then you are seeing the real them.
Before 9-11 there was Oklahoma City, and the deal down in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and in Montana (and lots of other events far less covered by the media). The Southern Poverty Law Center keeps records, its not happy reading. To paraphrase Obama "They are bitter, armed, and praying for the End Times."
And often, very often, I read on these boards "Oh why don't people understand us?" "Oh why do they hate us." Well, now you know.
It's Margaret Meade who said "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world." I'm sure they agree with that. It's the intent. Why should that always be good?
MOD Hat & Badge On Again
After reading tekla's response I didn't exactly see that it was a continuation of the old argument. But it ran close.
Kirsa, or any one among the others watching this thread, if you respond to tekla please do not go back to the argument about whether or not to rid the forum of the topic. Instead please try to hone to what you and tekla have said about the people who do have BBs like that. Why they communicate, how they communicate, etc.
Thanks so much.
Mod Hat and Badge Removed Again
Nichole
Quote from: tekla on May 30, 2008, 01:38:52 PM
I think that is incorrect for two reasons. First, people tend to write a lot closer to what they really think then they speak. We are taught to cover our speech, but often not in our writing. Writing tends to be a clearer version of our real thoughts. If only because it is hard, and takes a lot of practice and learning to be able to do otherwise. People who write lies - opps, write fiction - get paid a lot for it because its hard to write in a voice and character other than your own.
Second, I think that what I read in posts, like in here, or in there, is stuff that people would not tell anyone else. I bet there is a lot of stuff on Susan's that the person writing never told anyone else ever. So, when people who are pleasant in daily, real life, often have a more extremist, less sensitive, more outgoing personality online I'm willing to bet that the daily stuff is a put on, an act, and all ZOG, Mud People, Jew Doctor out to ruin the world stuff is the way they really think. They really think that there is a Zionist Occupational Government in the United States. They are just aware that in the real world, its going to get them many friends. White Power, American Nazis, and the rest are just not all that well thought of, and they hide it. When they let it out, then you are seeing the real them.
I believe then, that we have fundamentally different views on humanity, I believe and recognize that almost all people have two sides to them, the side they show the world, and their true selves. OK, admittedly that is not so far off from what you said, but I believe that MOST people are like this, outwardly they put on their normal mask and follow the laws and norms of society, on the inside many are completely different people. The question is which side to them has the power, for many their outward personality may dominate over their inward personality, for others maybe not so much. I don't know about you, but If I were a serious, dedicated American Nazi, I would not brag online and draw suspicion towards myself, I'd be as secretive as possible, I'd execute my victims as quietly and elegantly as possible. Going onto online forums and bragging about such actions is mere childsplay, such people are highly unlikely to actually go through with it, if they were that kind of person they would not feel the need to stress that side of them towards others.
QuoteBefore 9-11 there was Oklahoma City, and the deal down in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and in Montana (and lots of other events far less covered by the media). The Southern Poverty Law Center keeps records, its not happy reading. To paraphrase Obama "They are bitter, armed, and praying for the End Times."
And often, very often, I read on these boards "Oh why don't people understand us?" "Oh why do they hate us." Well, now you know.
No I don't know, what are you getting at, what does 9-11, Oklahoma City bombing, Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc have to do with transgendered people? Where does Obama come into this? Did you just take three random things and throw them together or am I missing something?
QuoteIt's Margaret Meade who said "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world." I'm sure they agree with that. It's the intent. Why should that always be good?
Because forum posts on the internet are hardly accurate indicators of intent, nor is there any indication of how committed they are.
Quote from: Kirsa on May 30, 2008, 12:24:10 PM
Posted on: May 30, 2008, 12:22:56 PM
Quote from: Angel on May 30, 2008, 11:23:34 AM
I tried to make a post of education, but apparently you must be approved before your post is shown to others. Censorship like that is kinda disturbing. :-\
You will lose every time, when you try to counter emotion-driven hatred with calm logic. This filth should be ignored!
I don't get mad at fools and morons, (I try not to at least) I educate them. If they wish to continue being fools and morons its their problem at that point.
The School of Very Hard Knocks sez: "You can only use reason to get someone out of a belief they used reason to get themselves into in the first place." Word.