Hi,
Sorry, this is quite possibly a really silly question, but can someone please define, in simple terms, the difference between "transgender" and "transsexual"? ??? It's just that even though I've looked both of them up on The Great W, I still don't understand the difference between them (or, I think I know until I really think about it, at which point the distinction between the two seems to go poof!).
Ta muchly,
Lutin
I've always understood "transgender" to be more of an umbrella term. It includes all the more specific variations: crossdresser, androgyne, transsexual, gender confused, genderqueer, non-gendered, pan-gendered, antigender, genderless, disengendered, and jenderfer lopez.
"transsexual", on the other hand, refers to someone who has one anatomical/genetic sex, but identifies as the other. It's one of the many subcategories of "transgender".
Alternatively, some people would consider a "transsexual" to be a person who undergoes a physical "sex change" (with HRT and/or surgery, depending on who you ask), regardless of the person's psychological identification (i.e. Hedwig and the Angry Inch). Personally, I disagree with this description. I'm TS today, and if the world fell apart tonight and it became impossible for me to ever transition, I would still be TS tomorrow. And I would be miserable, so let's cross our fingers that doesn't happen ;)
Anyway, no category perfectly describes a person. The more specific they get, the less applicable they become, so often the broader categories are the most sensible ones. Which is partly the reason why "transgender" is often used instead of a more specific label. I think. Hope that helps!
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html
There are two (or more) 'parallel universes' (for want of a better description,) where the two words have different meaning.
In the academic universe, where the definitions are precise and free of positive or negative connotations, Transgender is the umbrella term encompassing everything from occasional crossdressing to post-SRS people who have also had FFS, body contouring, laser and or electrolysis hair removal from other than the face, surgical voice feminization and other extreme surgical intervention.
"Transgender" may also denote a sub category usually in between crossdresser and transsexual, meaning someone who lives mostly or fully in a gender role other than what society believes is appropriate for the body they were born with. Usually this means male-birth-sex individuals living as female, and vice versa, but can also mean genderqueer and gender ___k individuals.
Transsexual is a subgrouping under the Transgender umbrella that denotes those who are pursuing or have achieved post-SRS status and changing legal status to that of the other group on the gender binary than they were born into. Transsexual can also apply to those who desire SRS but are medically unqualified to undergo it.
Now for the other universe:
In a world that contains bigoted homophobes and transphobes, words carry connotations, either good or bad. Consider the word group, pee | piss | urinate. They all mean exactly the same thing, but each has a different connotation. 'Pee' connotes innocence and a certain naturalness and inevitability. 'Piss' is aggressive, raunchy and negative. 'Urinate' is academic, and used when these matters involving bodily function must be discussed in polite company.
Connotation is why there is such a thing as 'politically correct' speech. 'Colored' had bad connotations, so it was replaced by 'negro', but that acquired bad connotations so along came 'afro-american' which sounded ridiculous and was replaced with 'black' which over the years accumulated bad connotations and was replaced with 'African American', which will be replaced by the by...
Because of connotation, you will never find homophobic websites use the word 'gay' to refer to men who are sexually oriented to other men. That word doesn't carry a connotation of condemnation. The people who maintain these sites would probably like to use the word f____t or f_g. It's aggressive and condemning, but then they would be exposing themselves as bigots. So they settle for 'homosexual', with the connotation that it is their duty to speak of such vile, disgusting things, but they'll use the academic word so as not to offend (too much.)
Also, swear words and oaths are processed in a different part of the brain from normal conversation. Indeed there are stroke sufferers who have lost the ability to converse, because that area was damaged. But because the area of the brain that processes swearing was untouched, they can still curse up a storm. Also for a percentage of the population, hearing curse words produces a physical reaction, the way that the sound of a metal rake on the sidewalk or fingernails on a blackboard produce a physical feeling in some people.
Now on to Transsexual and Transgender. In a universe of connotations, the preferred words change. The word 'transsexual' has the word SEXUAL in it. And some people react badly to that word.
So, even though it's academically wrong to refer to a post-op transsexual [ACADEMIC] as a transgender, it has some real world advantages in our quest to not be treated badly just because some Leviticus-spouting FundeVangelist can't stop thinking about sweaty, meaningless, deviant, sinful SEX whenever they contemplate the idea of transsexuals. The word 'transgender' is somewhat less likely to invoke such a reaction, and more likely to allow such individuals the opportunity to see us as, perhaps, almost human.
Karen
Thank you everyone so very very much!!! ;D
The problem was (/is) that I was (/am) contemplating telling Mum, but no-one in my family (as far as I know, anyway) identifies as anything other than the traditional binary either-or. I was scared of trying to tell Mum and have her turn around and either ask "what does transgender mean? Is it like transsexual?", or think she already knows and be convinced that they're one and the same, both of which would result in me having to try to define and differentiate between them. I just didn't want to try to explain the difference at the same time as trying to explain myself and get it wrong (although that could help me earn my fortune, writing the definitive How Not To Come Out For Dummies :P). Before I tell Mum (if, indeed, I do...still not sure yet..."Hey Mum, what would you say if I said I was transgender?" :embarrassed:) I want to be crystal clear as to what is what, that I'm X but not Y... Does that make sense? I'm fairly sure Mum wouldn't mind (she might even have figured things out for herself, but not have a name for it. She's smart, my Mum :)), but given the impact it would have (having your only daughter say she feels more like the elder (bi-->gay) brother of your 15-year-old son than his big sister is hardly on the same level as talking about the weather), I don't want to bungle it if I *do* decide to spill the magic beans.
But let me try to get this straight (please?)...as I still feel like the female-bodied person I am about 10% of the time, and completely androgynous about 15-20%, I don't identify *solely* as the opposite of my birth sex - which means I'm not transsexual? Given that 1) a transsexual "is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other", and desires "to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender", and 2) that I *don't* identify with this 100% of the time...that's transgender, but not transsexuality, aye? I know when I first joined, people suggested "gender fluid", which struck a chord. Gender fluid ≠ transsexual...right? (Not that I have anything wrong with transsexuals. I just really need to get my head around it :-\ :icon_dizzy:).
Anyway, sorry for ranting. Thanks again for everyone's help, you've all been wonderful. :icon_hug:
Lutin
Quote from: Lutin on May 26, 2008, 07:51:42 AMGiven that 1) a transsexual "is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other", and desires "to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender", and 2) that I *don't* identify with this 100% of the time...that's transgender, but not transsexuality, aye? I know when I first joined, people suggested "gender fluid", which struck a chord. Gender fluid ≠ transsexual...right? (Not that I have anything wrong with transsexuals. I just really need to get my head around it :-\ :icon_dizzy:).
You are correct. You illuminate an importance difference between TG's and people born transsexual. That is why some of us don't believe transsexualism should be under the umbrella term "transgender" at all. I don't have anything against TG's, but by definition they are 2 different things. In the last 15 years many people born transsexual adopted the TG label out of shame. Hey, I admit that I did that myself for a couple years. I think it's time to take back the word "transsexual" and educate the public. It's a slow process, but things are changing. You can't stop progress.
would this that's on the front of the forum be an explanation?: In Gender Studies the term "gender" is used to refer to the social and cultural constructions of masculinities and femininities. It does not refer to biological difference, but rather cultural
?
Oh deary me, the need for labels drives me bonkers. I venture to guess that if one placed a fullblown redneck male into a gender reassignment programme, you might get a fullblown redneck female back. However, you get a female body with a male mind and S/HE might set out to kill everyone involved in the programme that deformed H/ER. The body fits but the mind does not. I assume this why we endure years of therapy before SRS.
The term 'Transsexual' bothers me greatly because it is a label that confuses the vast majority of the population that have no problems with their identity. Society calles me that and therefore I must be one. The 'sexual' bit is troublesomme to me because it was never a matter of sex with me apart from not being able to engage in a sexual way with another person due to genital abnormality.
The term 'Transgender' is possibly more accurate in that this is what is happening with me. I am transfering from a social male to a social female in order to be able to live my life with a measure of ease and comfort. The end result hopefully shall be a female in sight and in the mind of everyone that comes into contact with me. :angel:
well, it's only my opinion, but I think labels are only necessary if the person feels the need for it for himself/herself...
personally, I do, & I hope it's ok to add a bit of detail on the subject...
I'm "approximately" middle-age; & whether it's in general or specific aspects of the subject, I feel 100% alone..I haven't been able to find "people who are like me" (that is, people who experience/understand/relate similarly) since the mid-eighties when I found a wonderful magazine called the Transsexual Voice, which I guess doesn't exist anymore...
so during the last few years I've looked around online, and in this small city where I now live, & there have been many people who call themselves Transgender, very nice people but they didn't grasp what I'm about or going through..
that's my only need/reason for "labels."
Quote from: JENNIFER on May 31, 2008, 04:47:33 PMThe term 'Transsexual' bothers me greatly because it is a label that confuses the vast majority of the population that have no problems with their identity. Society calles me that and therefore I must be one. The 'sexual' bit is troublesomme to me because it was never a matter of sex with me apart from not being able to engage in a sexual way with another person due to genital abnormality.
True it is not about the
act of sex, but it
is about the sex of the body. That's part of what the public needs to be educated about. You are allowing an uneducated society to shame you.
QuoteThe term 'Transgender' is possibly more accurate in that this is what is happening with me. I am transfering from a social male to a social female in order to be able to live my life with a measure of ease and comfort. The end result hopefully shall be a female in sight and in the mind of everyone that comes into contact with me. :angel:
"Transgender" is actually more
inaccurate! I did NOT change my gender, I changed my body to match my gender. As Jamison Green said:
QuoteI could achieve my personal goal of adulthood. This means that I have chosen to change my appearance.... it does not mean that my gender is socially --- or even medically --- constructed. My gender has not changed; I have simply made it's message clear.
I agree with Beyond that we, as a group, allow the 'sexual' bit to be mistakenly used, most particularly amongst ourselves. We collude with the bigots when we as well define sex as an act, rather than a biological category.
My sex is female, albeit in a 'defective' form. My gender has not changed any at all. I simply present myself with the socio-cultural 'gender-accoutrments" of the sex I am.
Were I to move to India, I would, no doubt, change my daily clothing to reflect the culture. I'd wear (and actually love to) a lot of kurtas and the shalwar kameez either with pants for a suit (for work) or with a skirt (for work and other daily and social occasions.) Those would show my gender and give people there the ticket to the 'sex' that would be my body.
Thus, I prefer my history to be "transsexual" as I have not changed my gender at all, just the secondary characteristics of my sex.
Nichole
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 01, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
It's not that simple.
There are many people born transsexual that object to being shoehorned under the transgender umbrella. A person born transsexual desires complete transition, to fully be, as much as possible, who they should have been. I'm done transition and I'm not gender variant, I'm just another woman in the world.
Transgender people are gender variant in some way, shape or form.
That's a significant difference. I'm legally, psychologically and anatomically female. Look at my avatar, do I look variant? And please don't say I'm beholden to stereotypes or the dichotomy because that is simply not true. I'm a plain Jane, vanilla girl from next door. And I know this going to sound trite, but for the most part I feel cured. The dysphoria I felt for most of my life is GONE. I love life and I love me!
Then why do I come here? 2 reasons: Habit and to help others.
I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.
Took me a while to figure this out but according to Merriam-Webster, sex is physical and gender is behavioral, cultural, or psychological. With that in mind transsexual is accurate but I still don't like the sex part in the word.
Gender
2 a: sex <the feminine gender> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
Sex
1: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures
2: the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex
QuoteThen why do I come here? 2 reasons: Habit and to help others.
I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.
Thanks! ;D And yes, it does help a lot. Much appreciated, really.
QuoteTrue it is not about the act of sex, but it is about the sex of the body. That's part of what the public needs to be educated about.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm scared of Mum (and my friends) getting confuzzled over, and then obsessing about because they get it wrong (my Mum does that A LOT ::)).
And I think you're right, society does get all flustered when the "S" word is mentioned. (Even though I personally happen to like Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssocialism :icon_wink:).
But really, people hear "sex" and the mind seems to stop. Blood rushes elsewhere. Hmmm... Maybe if (horrible as it sounds) the "f-word", or some substitute (e.g. "splingf") was used to replace sex-the-act, so that "sex" could be used as freely as "gender" is now, but obviously in the not-necessarily-bedroom-scenario context. Physical sex, heterosexuality, bisexual, homosexual, asexual, transsexual, intersex, anything where it's more a state of
being/thinking/feeling/identifying, could keep "sex", while the act itself would change to more of a "let's go have splingf."
Ah, if only it were that simple... :icon_bored:
Quote from: Lutin on June 02, 2008, 09:01:55 AMThen why do I come here? 2 reasons: Habit and to help others.And I think you're right, society does get all flustered when the "S" word is mentioned. (Even though I personally happen to like Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssocialism :icon_wink:).
:laugh: ;D :laugh: ;D :laugh: ;D :laugh: ;D :laugh:
QuoteBut really, people hear "sex" and the mind seems to stop. Blood rushes elsewhere. Hmmm... Maybe if (horrible as it sounds) the "f-word", or some substitute (e.g. "splingf") was used to replace sex-the-act, so that "sex" could be used as freely as "gender" is now, but obviously in the not-necessarily-bedroom-scenario context. Physical sex, heterosexuality, bisexual, homosexual, asexual, transsexual, intersex, anything where it's more a state of being/thinking/feeling/identifying, could keep "sex", while the act itself would change to more of a "let's go have splingf."
Ah, if only it were that simple... :icon_bored:
Okay, I've got it..... "Trans-phenotypical"
From dictionary.com:
phenotype [(fee-nuh-teyep)]
The outward appearance of an organism; the expression of a genotype in the form of traits that can be seen and measured, such as hair or eye color.
What if I like my green eyes & blonde hair just fine? Does that me cis-phenotypical? :laugh:
Nichole
This arguement is going down the path it does everytime it is brought up.
In Circles.
Sarah L.
_________________________
These were definitions Susan came up with.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=14714.msg112044#msg112044
Community Definitions:
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and Transvestites.
Androgyne: An androgynous person
Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.
Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.
Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.
Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.
Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.
Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.
Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.
Transvestite: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.
Other terms:
Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.
Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.
This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site
I have read peoples views since my own was offered and I still believe that labels drives me bonkers. However, I understand how everyone has a different view and no-one is incorrect because there possibly cannot be a correct answer to this.
At a personal level, as with others here, I am me, I feel female, always have done and live accordingly. The rest of the world and their pet dogs can go.......******* if they dont like it.
I really enjoy this board because I continue to learn from people similar to myself and realise that I do NOT know it all already :P this is most refreshing and I thank everyone that has corrected me or offered an opinion to my thoughts. Please keep them coming. :)
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 01, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
Restricting the definition of transsexual to binary identified people strikes me as being unnecessarily exclusive. There are non-binary identified people (by no means all of them I know) who feel they have a birth defect and their anatomical sex doesn't match the sex of their brain. This condition can exist whether you feel you're supposed to have a binary sexed body or not. It's perfectly possible to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria leading to corrective surgery without being binary identified.
I pretty much agree with the definition of transsexual that Sarah posted above, if "the other" is changed to "an other".
I don't particularly like using the transgender term for myself. I don't believe the older definition of it fits me as my gender has NOT changed. It seems to be taking on a new meaning of 'transcending binary gender' (rather than transcending assigned gender), that I don't mind so much I guess, but until it's the generally accepted meaning of the word, I won't use it. Also (call me a cynic if you must), I can't help but think this attempt to change the definition is an attempt to separate binary identified trans people from non-binary identified trans people.
Quote from: Andra on June 02, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 01, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
Restricting the definition of transsexual to binary identified people strikes me as being unnecessarily exclusive. There are non-binary identified people (by no means all of them I know) who feel they have a birth defect and their anatomical sex doesn't match the sex of their brain. This condition can exist whether you feel you're supposed to have a binary sexed body or not. It's perfectly possible to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria leading to corrective surgery without being binary identified.
<snip>
Also (call me a cynic if you must), I can't help but think this attempt to change the definition is an attempt to separate binary identified trans people from non-binary identified trans people.
What? ???
It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual. The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth. Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual. That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.
This is what I was writing about before. Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue. What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transgender" interchangeable. When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained. I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual. I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience. Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.
One is either transgender or transsexual. They are two separate things.
The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.
So, someone may be highly dysphoric and have this brain modification
and and other may be a lot less and have the same.
Who's the TS in that case. The second one will possibly be somewhere
in between genders and not at either end.
What if somebody is highly dysphoric and does not have any brain modification,
are they transexual, fetishists, delusional?
That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.
Quote from: Keira on June 04, 2008, 01:12:41 PM
The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.
So, someone may be highly dysphoric and have this brain modification
and and other may be a lot less and have the same.
Who's the TS in that case. The second one will possibly be somewhere
in between genders and not at either end.
What if somebody is highly dysphoric and does not have any brain modification,
are they transexual, fetishists, delusional?
That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.
Slap me down if you wish but having read Keira above, I can fuly understand the need for extensive phychiatric investigations, something that I am having currently. Hopefully they will confirm that my feelings are so deeply set that it cannot be a mere whim or a fetish or any othe excuse to get my body to match my mind. Never can it be possible for a 'one size fits all' solution or answer to our situations. :embarrassed:
Quote from: Beyond on June 04, 2008, 12:00:25 PM
It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual. The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth. Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual. That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.
This is what I was writing about before. Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue. What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transger" interchangeable. When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained. I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual. I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience. Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.
One is either transgender or transsexual. They are two separate things.
The thing is, in the past it was generally thought that the only people who had gender dysphoria (or at least 'real' gender dysphoria) and therefore the only people eligible for treatment were binary identified transsexuals. Therefore there was seemingly no harm done in defining the word transsexual in a way that only works for binary identified people. These days however medical professionals are realising that non-binary people can have gender dysphoria and respond to treatments very similar to those given to binary transsexuals. You could draw an analogy to the time that transsexual meant M2F full stop (because it was thought F2Ms didn't exist), would this mean people would be justified in telling F2Ms that they werent allowed to 'co-opt' a term coined originally for transsexual women?
I'd appreciate it if you explained how your situation is fundamentally different to mine? I'm not trying to 'co-opt' the life experience of binary transsexuals (and lets remember that they're a fairly diverse group anyway), I simply note that my issues are very similar. I have gone through the hell of living in the wrong body, going by the wrong name, being called the wrong pronouns (excuse the emosplode), come out to friends and family, changed my name, altered my hormonal state and appearance, had laser hair removal, I am having surgery to fix my genitalia. Not all my issues match those of m2fs, but a great many do.
"Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not." I think there's a subtle hint here that you were 'born' the way you are (ie an immutable fact) and I simply 'identify' as something other than my birth sex (ie an opinion). There is no proof of this, and I could equally assert that the converse is true.
To me, the important difference between 'transgender' and 'transsexual' is that one refers to gender and the other to sex. I am transitioning largely because of a deeply held conviction that my body is wrong and I need to fix it. I find any definition of 'transsexual' that excludes people who are going through a transition of anatomical sex characteristics rather lacking. I don't get why people want to shove a great big wedge between the non-binary and the binary transpeople. Surely the motivations for making the changes are more important than the destination. Nobody seems to complain about M2Fs and F2Ms sharing terminology, even though they're going in opposite directions.
Posted on: June 04, 2008, 03:22:22 PM
Quote from: Keira on June 04, 2008, 01:12:41 PM
The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.
[...]
That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.
*nods*
Also, I think it's not just a matter of "expression". If there is such a thing as brain sex (lets not get into arguing the nature of the evidence for that again), then I see no reason why it has to be wired entirely male or entirely female. There is certainly no proof that being mentally intersex doesn't occur.
Quote from: Beyond on June 04, 2008, 12:00:25 PM
What? ???
It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual. The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth. Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual. That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.
This is what I was writing about before. Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual". I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue. What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transger" interchangeable. When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained. I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual. I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience. Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.
One is either transgender or transsexual. They are two separate things.
I would have to point out that not every body within the field would agree with your assessment of the definitions actually. These aren't quite the definitions that are in use on this particular site, but from the site of an author you list in your profile :
QuoteTranssexuals (TS or T's): Transsexuals are people who believe that their physiological body does not represent their true sex. Most transsexuals desire sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) but transsexuals may be pre-operative, post-operative, or non-operative (i.e., choosing to not have surgical modification). Some transsexuals prefer to not have their birth sex known and to "pass," and others are comfortable been seen as transsexuals and take pride in this identity. Most transsexuals prefer to be referred to simply as men or women, regardless of their surgical status.
And :
QuoteTransgender: Transgender is an umbrella term including many categories of people who are gender variant. This can include people who identify as transsexuals, crossdressers, masculine identified females, feminine identified males, MtF's, FtM's, transmen, transgendered women, intersexed, and other differently-gendered people. Transgender people can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or non-sexual. Transgenderist is a term used for some crossdressers, who feel they are more than crossdressers, but not quite transsexuals.
From - http://www.choicesconsulting.com/areas/transgender/definitions.html
Both of these definitions allow for much more openness and reflect the reality of what people experience. Historically it may have been restricted to binary viewpoints but there's no reason for it not to be amended to include the other instances that can easily be explained under it. :)
I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders. Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live.
If by some chance this is a true reflection of humanity as we here see it, could it explain why so many of us differ in our view on transsexualism, ->-bleeped-<- or any other trans-ism? Oh, dont ask me why 73 genders, I have no idea why the man came to that figure :-\
Quote from: JENNIFER on June 04, 2008, 03:39:45 PM
I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders. Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live.
If God created two sexes then it seems pretty evident that he didn't just assign every person entirely one state or the other but assigned people mixtures of the two states in varying quantities ;)
Quote from: Andra on June 04, 2008, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: JENNIFER on June 04, 2008, 03:39:45 PM
I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders. Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live.
If God created two sexes then it seems pretty evident that he didn't just assign every person entirely one state or the other but assigned people mixtures of the two states in varying quantities ;)
Indeed, hence 73 genders.....kinda makes sense ;)
When I talk about "expression" its not a volountary act, its gene expression, how
the genes actually "express" themselves in interaction with the environment and
other genes.
Quote from: Andra on June 04, 2008, 03:29:14 PMThe thing is, in the past it was generally thought that the only people who had gender dysphoria (or at least 'real' gender dysphoria) and therefore the only people eligible for treatment were binary identified transsexuals. Therefore there was seemingly no harm done in defining the word transsexual in a way that only works for binary identified people. These days however medical professionals are realising that non-binary people can have gender dysphoria and respond to treatments very similar to those given to binary transsexuals. You could draw an analogy to the time that transsexual meant M2F full stop (because it was thought F2Ms didn't exist), would this mean people would be justified in telling F2Ms that they werent allowed to 'co-opt' a term coined originally for transsexual women?
You obviously don't know your history. FtM's have always been around, Reed Erickson (of the Erickson Foundation) anyone?, they just weren't well known. So it's never been a strictly MtF thing. The only "full stop" that existed was that you had to be hetero at the end of transition or they wouldn't let you into the gender program.
I don't know why you all are acting defensively. I'm not saying one is any better than another, just different. It's like your trying to say measles and mumps are the same thing just because they are both covered by an MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) immunization. ::)
And we wonder why cisgenders don't understand when *we* can't even agree on terminology. ::)
When it comes to self-acceptance transition is like an onion. Just when you think you've got everything sorted out another layer is removed. As you get farther along in your journey your view of things will change. Compound that with this being a wide-open TG/TS board and it's no wonder we have misunderstandings like this. It's all about context-where you are in transition and who you are (androgyne, TG, TS).
If you think it's frustrating, it's just as frustrating on my end. I'm trying to help people, but there are a lot of lessons people just have to live/experience before they understand. I'm not trying to drive a wedge. Our experiences are going to differ and hence we're not the same. I don't identify as a "transsexual" or "transgender". I consider myself beyond (pun intended) that now, I'm simply a woman now. Trying to explain this to you is making me wonder why I come to places like this anymore. You're so lost in your trans forest that you can't see that for some of us there is a life outside the forest. Some of you will find it and some of you won't.
I'm just trying to understand what the big issue is that makes someone like myself so different from MTFs and FTMs. I really don't think I have any issues with self-acceptance, and I'm pretty far along with my transition (bottom surgery in 4 weeks time). I identify as transsexual because I was born with the wrong body and have needed to change it. That will never go away, it happened and no amount of time passing will stop it having happened, it's a fact. Transsexual isn't my gender, or anything to do with my gender, but I identify as one, just like I identify as someone who fractured their collarbone when they were a child. Yes, maybe my views and opinions will evolve as time goes by (I sure hope so, I'd hate to be an inflexible person who couldn't grow), but so may yours!
Trans people are diverse, the difference between me and some MTFs is smaller than the differences between various MTFs.
How am I 'lost' in this supposed "trans forest"? You know very little about me so don't try and tell me what my life is or isn't like. I spend a fair amount of time on trans forums but outside of the internet don't generally interact with other trans people. Due to being non-binary, being trans will ALWAYS be a significant part of my life (since stealth or blending in well are not possible (I have no 'accepted' gender role to blend into)) and something I have to do deal with, but I'm secure and happy about what I am and it doesn't rule my life. Somehow I don't think it's me that has much work to do on self-acceptance.
Quote from: Andra on June 05, 2008, 08:03:37 AM
Trans people are diverse
Indeed, as are the rest of the human race. I think all of this squabbling over labels is really, really stupid and a huge waste of time. Why not just enjoy life and let all of these labels fall by the wayside? Yeah, I know that it is human nature to label, argue all that jazz. But does it do any of us any good at all? I would say no.
Quote from: Laura91 on June 05, 2008, 09:52:09 AM
Indeed, as are the rest of the human race. I think all of this squabbling over labels is really, really stupid and a huge waste of time. Why not just enjoy life and let all of these labels fall by the wayside? Yeah, I know that it is human nature to label, argue all that jazz. But does it do any of us any good at all? I would say no.
I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."
But as far as the public goes, I think transsexual and transgender are interchangeable now. The original meaning of "transsexual" is probably forever lost with them at this point. I won't go near any of the terms. When someone tells me they
"saw a show on transsexualism and learned so much!" I always say,
"that's nice, but it wasn't about ME."~Kate~
Quote
I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."
Well, actually, I was talking about how useless labels were in general, but you do have a very good point there.
Quote from: Kate on June 05, 2008, 10:49:11 AM
I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."
I can well understand this, but it's important to remember that binary identified TSs aren't the only people for whom gender dysphoria is a debilitating medical problem that makes medical treatments (endocrinological and/or surgical) a necessity.
Quote from: Beyond on June 02, 2008, 07:16:01 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 01, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
It's not that simple.
There are many people born transsexual that object to being shoehorned under the transgender umbrella. A person born transsexual desires complete transition, to fully be, as much as possible, who they should have been. I'm done transition and I'm not gender variant, I'm just another woman in the world.
Transgender people are gender variant in some way, shape or form.
That's a significant difference. I'm legally, psychologically and anatomically female. Look at my avatar, do I look variant? And please don't say I'm beholden to stereotypes or the dichotomy because that is simply not true. I'm a plain Jane, vanilla girl from next door. And I know this going to sound trite, but for the most part I feel cured. The dysphoria I felt for most of my life is GONE. I love life and I love me!
Then why do I come here? 2 reasons: Habit and to help others.
I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.
Chill out dude, I'm just saying what the books say. I agree that transsexuals are much much much different fro mthe rest but it is stil considered under the transgender umbrella
Posted on: June 05, 2008, 11:45:21 AM
Quote from: Andra on June 02, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 01, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
Its simple.
Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.
Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.
Restricting the definition of transsexual to binary identified people strikes me as being unnecessarily exclusive. There are non-binary identified people (by no means all of them I know) who feel they have a birth defect and their anatomical sex doesn't match the sex of their brain. This condition can exist whether you feel you're supposed to have a binary sexed body or not. It's perfectly possible to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria leading to corrective surgery without being binary identified.
Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 05, 2008, 01:48:40 PM
Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?
Er you did, by saying defining transsexual as being a state where the "sex of your body [is] opposite the gender of your brain". A persons gender and sex dont need to be complete opposites in order for the person to experience dysphoria that requires treatment. Did I misinterpret?
(I'd argue that in my case, being null-identified, ie, non-male, my gender is opposite the body I was born with, ie male. This doesnt cover all the other possible gender/body identities though).
Quote from: Andra on June 05, 2008, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on June 05, 2008, 01:48:40 PM
Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?
Er you did, by saying defining transsexual as being a state where the "sex of your body [is] opposite the gender of your brain". A persons gender and sex dont need to be complete opposites in order for the person to experience dysphoria that requires treatment. Did I misinterpret?
(I'd argue that in my case, being null-identified, ie, non-male, my gender is opposite the body I was born with, ie male. This doesnt cover all the other possible gender/body identities though).
One would assume that is intersexed, or genderqueer.
Yes, you did misinterpret me. I said multiple things that work together. You zeroed in on a single thing and deconstructed it. You have to read it all together. I said "Transsexual = this and this and this" Where as you saw it as "Transsexual = this. Transsexual = this. Transsexual = this"
May be just me, but this disagreement appears to be about a different word, "opposite."
N~
I think you might be right Nichole.
Apologies then Gracie, thanks for the clarification. :)
Quote from: Andra on June 05, 2008, 02:35:47 PM
I think you might be right Nichole.
Apologies then Gracie, thanks for the clarification. :)
Water under the bridge :laugh:
The reason TS need it to be a medical "issue" is
not just because of insurance. What endo
will prescribe you if its not a medical problem?
What doctor will operate on you?
Of course, you could sign a waiver.
But any doctor that accepts to wave
all responsability for
the patient he operates on is probably not world class...
QuoteIndeed, as are the rest of the human race. I think all of this squabbling over labels is really, really stupid and a huge waste of time. Why not just enjoy life and let all of these labels fall by the wayside? Yeah, I know that it is human nature to label, argue all that jazz. But does it do any of us any good at all? I would say no.
I don't know, from the sounds of it the reason for the need for labels is as varied as the labels and their possible definitions themselves. Some people don't need them - you, for instance Laura, sound perfectly content to not be labelled - while some people - like myself - do find a need for them. I think (and this is *only* a generalisation here) that people who are perhaps more confident in themselves find less of a need for labels than those of us who are less self-confident and just figuring things out. I'm a fairly insecure person, and so coming to the realisation that I might be transgender is not helped any by potential misunderstandings of the various terms - hence this particular thread. I really needed to try to get my head around everything, and the numerous (and incredibly different) responses have, I think, really illustrated
why some people (myself included) get so confused over labels.
Having read all the replies, my idea of what is what has cleared, but I don't think that eliminates - for me - the need to be able to say "yes, I identify as X." Some people may just instinctively *know* things about themselves, and so not find the need for labels, but having been raised in a fairly 'straight' house (open and accepting, but straight. Maybe even beige, or vanilla...), I had never known that what I was feeling was a) not unique, and b) perfectly legitimate, and so finding a 'valid' way to explain it was really a wonderful feeling, and a feeling that I needed to understand - hence the need for lables.
Once I have fully come to grips with all of this, then I may well be able to leave labels behind and go my own way regardless of definitions; however, at this *particular* moment, "stupid and a huge waste of time" as they may be to some ;), I find that labels have been really helpful, and will probably continue to be helpful until I am comfortable with who I am (which may take quite a while yet :P). For me, it's like George Orwell's
1984:
QuoteThe whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought.
QuoteHow could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?
How can you think about gender identity or explain how you feel when you don't know the words to explain it? :(
That's how I feel, anyway. :P
Lutin
In my opinion, the assumptions and negative societal baggage that go along with labels are the real problems.
Zythyra