Tuesday evening, Ellie and I were having a discussion that had been prompted by going to dinner at Famous Dave's Barbeque Restaurant. The gentleman who seated us at our table greeted us by saying, "Hi! How are you guys doing?" This was followed quickly by our wait person asking us, "Can I get you ladies something to drink while you look at the menu?" Ellie was wondering if our wait person was humoring us, and I was saying that "you guys" has become genderless.
What have others experienced about "you guys?" Gendered? Or genderless?
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 04, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
Tuesday evening, Ellie and I were having a discussion that had been prompted by going to dinner at Famous Dave's Barbeque Restaurant. The gentleman who seated us at our table greeted us by saying, "Hi! How are you guys doing?" This was followed quickly by our wait person asking us, "Can I get you ladies something to drink while you look at the menu?" Ellie was wondering if our wait person was humoring us, and I was saying that "you guys" has become genderless.
What have others experienced about "you guys?" Gendered? Or genderless?
It is certainly genderless but I still hate hearing it. It makes me question how I look at times...especially if I am already having a bad day.
Charlotte
Quote from: charlotteNH on June 04, 2008, 11:17:34 PM
It is certainly genderless but I still hate hearing it. It makes me question how I look at times...especially if I am already having a bad day.
Charlotte
Back when I first transitioned, I was sitting talking with a bunch of the girls at work, and another girl joined us saying, "How are all you guys doing?" Then she realised I was in the group and got embarassed. She stammered that she wasn't suggesting that I was a guy. She said I was a girl like the rest of them and wanted to change her greeting to "How are you girls doing?"
LoL
I only laugh because I hated "you guys" for the longest time. Something inside me knew it was genderless, but it made me question myself. It wasn't until I met Meghan that I had a little sense slapped into me. Everywhere we'd go, when the waiter said "you guys," I'd say "See! Clocked me!" It became a joke and over time she made me see how silly I was being and I just started to lighten up about it.
Hi Charlotte. :)
Cat and I have always had other women who've referred to us as "you guys." The 'guys' say "ladies" as far as I can recall, but, dude you're basically right. That word has become insidious.
I expect that soon we'll be hearing, "Hi, insidiouses, welcome to Dalton's. Table for two?" >:D >:D
Nichole
I think that 'You Guys' very genderless, but I remember when my ex and I when to dinner ( I was in 'boy' mode ) the comment was also made. I think may be the person is trying, unsuccessful, to be friendly. And I can definitely see how it could utterly deflate one's confidence. It sure would blow mine.
If I was with a bunch of other women and it was a female waitress, I would feel that she was including me as a member of a sisterhood.
IMHO,
Janet
I've always taken the "guys" in "you guys" as a clarification that one is using the plural you, not the singular you. It's funny, though, in that it's a very American expression, and the British seem to have taken the notion that we Yanks use "guys" completely indiscriminately. (I've heard a number of people comment on it.)
I was watching a Home and Garden show the other day, featuring a well known British gardener. He was doing his first show actually filmed in and targeted for the U.S. Throughout the program he kept referring to the married couple (man and woman) whose garden he was doing as "the guys". I can only think that he was trying to Americanize his language for a U.S. audience, (unless British slang has changed considerably since I was last in the U.K.) but it sounded rather odd. :D
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
'wait person'?
was it a waiter or waitress? degendering stuff REALLY annoys me >>
as for 'you guys...'
Its genderless... i know girls who use it to groups of all females.... mixed groups, and male groups... its just a plural tbh... I dont even care... i use it, its not a big deal to me... i have noticed in chat i sometimes get torn into for saying 'how are you guys?' with a rather hoity reply of 'Excuse me i identify as female' ><
R >:D
Though I too hate it's use, I definetely agree that it's become genderless.
hi... okay its used here in new zealand a bit . yet we use mate same in aust so is that just a male thing .... no its used for us females as well i get it quite a bit. other wise its . hi ladys. so yea its okay i dont mind i am a women so no big deal ,,,noeleena...
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 05, 2008, 03:37:18 AM
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
Eeeewwwww!!!!!!Were you aware that in Texas "y'all" is singular? The plural is "all y'all."
Quote from: Rachael on June 05, 2008, 03:58:48 AM
'wait person'?
was it a waiter or waitress? degendering stuff REALLY annoys me >>
Ok, Rachael, just for you she was a waitress. But I still prefer "wait person" over "waitron."
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 05, 2008, 08:00:30 AM
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 05, 2008, 03:37:18 AM
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
Eeeewwwww!!!!!!
Were you aware that in Texas "y'all" is singular? The plural is "all y'all."
When I lived in VA, I knew people who said "y'alls" for plural. In Philly (PA), it was "youse".
"You guys" seems to mostly be genderless, I've heard women address other women as such, but I'm still getting used to it.
One time my partners daughter addressed me as "dude", and I wasn't having a good day... she assured me that dude/s was genderless, and I've gotten used to her using it.
Z
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 04, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
What have others experienced about "you guys?" Gendered? Or genderless?
Oh I hear it all the time when out with my wife, even yesterday...
"Hi Girls!" as we walked into the post office... followed by,
"you guys just come on back here, OK?"And yes, in restaurants it's often,
"can I get you guys something to drink?" or whatever.
It bugged me in the beginning when I was hyper-conscious of any gender references, but I don't even notice it now.
~Kate~
I hate it too, I know it is genderless, but it has become an integrated part of American society. Heck, I even use it a lot without realizing it ::). It's no biggie for people that are comfortable with their gender (duh), but if I am with a group of women, and someone goes "Hey guys!" or something along that line, I feel singled out a little (because I'm still a "boy", at the moment). I also think sometimes like "Hey, I'm not a guy dang it!!!" Of course, I can't let that one get out.... yet :laugh:.
Using "you guys" is about the most genderless statement you can make to someone, coming from someone who used it ALL the time when I lived on the East Coast. I don't know if it's a regional thing, but I didn't hear it in Texas at all (only "y'all, another genderless statement obviously) and in California I don't hear it as much. As Laci stated, I think it's silly for transpeople to think that someone is purposely using the phrase "you guys" to mean anything other than a collective you. It's used for large groups of people whether they are gg, guys or whatever. Even the girls I grew up with used it to refer to each other. I guess we could have philosophical discussions about subjugation and power structures/paradigms, etc. around the word, but it doesn't mean anything to 99% of the population. Relax :)
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on June 05, 2008, 09:42:41 AM
Using "you guys" is about the most genderless statement you can make to someone, coming from someone who used it ALL the time when I lived on the East Coast.
Interesting, as I'm on the East Coast (as you know, lol) and hear it all the time too.
QuoteI guess we could have philosophical discussions about subjugation and power structures/paradigms, etc. around the word, but it doesn't mean anything to 99% of the population. Relax :)
Ya know, I actually kinda think of it as a *compliment*, as I figure if anyone read me or had trouble thinking of me as a female they'd be hyper-conscious of the pronouns they'd use and would go out of their way to *avoid* saying things like "you guys." So ironically, saying "you guys" to me makes me feel more like
just one of the girls, lol...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on June 05, 2008, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on June 05, 2008, 09:42:41 AM
Using "you guys" is about the most genderless statement you can make to someone, coming from someone who used it ALL the time when I lived on the East Coast.
Interesting, as I'm on the East Coast (as you know, lol) and hear it all the time too.
QuoteI guess we could have philosophical discussions about subjugation and power structures/paradigms, etc. around the word, but it doesn't mean anything to 99% of the population. Relax :)
Ya know, I actually kinda think of it as a *compliment*, as I figure if anyone read me or had trouble thinking of me as a female they'd be hyper-conscious of the pronouns they'd use and would go out of their way to *avoid* saying things like "you guys." So ironically, saying "you guys" to me makes me feel more like just one of the girls, lol...
~Kate~
I'm sure that's right. I imagine they'd make it a point of 'hyper-consciously' referring to you as "Sir." People enjoy pointing out that they 'know' 'what' someone else "really is." >:D
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 05, 2008, 03:37:18 AM
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
Here, here! Y'all, it is!
Quote from: lacitychick21 on June 05, 2008, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 05, 2008, 03:37:18 AM
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
Here, here! Y'all, it is!
:D
Well, I would be lying if I said that I have not been hyper sensitive to the pronoun usage, but I am trying to lighten up a little bit. I have known many women that use "you guys" and "buddy" and "dude" all of the time when referring to other women. I guess dealing with all of the GID stuff kind of screwed me up for a while. Although I do have to say there IS a difference between someone just casually saying "dude" and someone that purposely rams male pronouns down your throat every other word. THAT is very, very annoying.
Quote from: Nichole on June 05, 2008, 10:02:13 AM
I'm sure that's right. I imagine they'd make it a point of 'hyper-consciously' referring to you as "Sir." People enjoy pointing out that they 'know' 'what' someone else "really is." >:D
Whatcha mean? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or... ?
In my experience, people don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings, and instead of risking a normally innocent phrase like, "you guys," would rather play it safe... IF they "know."
I mean sure, if someone said,
"thank you SIR" to me, sure... I'd be hurt. That's different. People just don't say that to women.
But when I walk into a place with my wife and hear,
"how are you guys today?" I take it I'm just "normal" to them, not in need of special consideration "as a transsexual" or whatever. I'm just a normal girl, being referred to as casually as any other girl is. I take it as either:
1) I pass
2) I don't pass, but they still think of me as a female to the point they don't feel a need to "protect" my feelings
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on June 05, 2008, 10:32:18 AM
Whatcha mean? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or... ?
I meant pretty much exactly what I said. You're fortunate. You haven't experienced the pain that some have.
N~
Quote from: Nichole on June 05, 2008, 10:02:13 AM
I'm sure that's right. I imagine they'd make it a point of 'hyper-consciously' referring to you as "Sir." People enjoy pointing out that they 'know' 'what' someone else "really is." >:D
I've gotten that a few times, and absolutely hate it. It's very condescending! >:(
Z
Quote from: Kate on June 05, 2008, 10:32:18 AM
I mean sure, if someone said, "thank you SIR" to me, sure... I'd be hurt. That's different. People just don't say that to women.
Um... That happened to me a couple of times in my early years. Ya, it hurt, but I had to let it roll off my back.
this might be a little different since im going the other direction... but IME you guys has always been genderless. an dude to me is usually about 75% male. like "dude wtf!" is genderless. lol but "this dude was chattin' me up" is most definitely male. even when i was "female" you guys and dude never really bothered me.
Posted on: June 05, 2008, 02:06:54 PM
this might be a little different since im going the other direction... but IME you guys has always been genderless. an dude to me is usually about 75% male. like "dude wtf!" is genderless. lol but "this dude was chattin' me up" is most definitely male. even when i was "female" you guys and dude never really bothered me.
That "Sir" thing is atrocious. What kind of prat needs to do that?
I tend to use "dude" or "dudes" if I know the group and know they won't be put out. I'm fairly careful about when I'll use "dudes" or "guys" though--I know some women object to it as a holdover from the days when the masculine pronoun was used as the default, and feel that they're being disappeared by "guys." There's also the issue of potentially distressing someone, either because she's a natal woman who happens to have some supposedly "masculine" features, or she's someone who's transtitioning/transitioned, or for whatever reason. If in doubt, I'll say "peeps" or "folks."
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 05, 2008, 03:37:18 AM
So maybe we should just start pushing for a global adoption of good ol' "y'all". ;)
Or a resurrection of the second person singular. Thou canst set an example! ;)
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 05, 2008, 02:31:42 PM
Or a resurrection of the second person singular. Thou canst set an example! ;)
Nfr
I like the way thee thinkest ;)
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on June 05, 2008, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 05, 2008, 02:31:42 PM
Or a resurrection of the second person singular. Thou canst set an example! ;)
Nfr
I like the way thee thinkest ;)
Z
if this catches on, Lisbeff, i'm going to beat thine a**
-Ellie
dudes... dudettes....
'guys' is a plural for people.... when a group of natal females do it to a group of natal females (inc me that they dont know) i dont think thier calling themselves men do you?
get over yourselves... people arnt all out to get you....
Paranoia is only justified if they really are after you ;)
R >:D
Yep 'you guys' is completely genderless as is 'dude'. Very common for females to address all female groups this way.
Its funny really... Transsexuals make a mountain out of a mole hill in so many cases... ive NEVER heard a natal female protest about someone refering to the group they are in as 'you guys' EVER... and ive heard groups called that a lot. and done a lot of calling.
Transwomen have a special 'moaning' gene i think.
R >:D
Ja I agree "you guys" is mostly genderless now. It doesn't bother me (since I try to be a guy anyway) when people say "you guys" or "dude" it kind of makes me feel better. Yesterday though my mom took me to get my license and I had to dress all "femenine" looking for the license picture but we couldn't get the license yesterday but we stopped at wal-mart and our car broke down and some guy walked by and asked us for help but he worded as "do you ladies need any help?" at the time I thought "yah get this piece of crap car started!" but in the back of my mind I thought "oh God he called us "ladies" thanks for massaging my ego dude" but oh well..I wasn't trying to pass as male that day anyway since I had to get dressed for the license picture.[/color]
Quote from: ell on June 05, 2008, 03:56:25 PM
if this catches on, Lisbeff, i'm going to beat thine a**
-Ellie
Thinkest thou so? Kennst where I have hidden mine crop?
I also dont see any problem with this, If I only had a dollar every time I heard this saying used amongst a group Of GG I would have a nice bankroll...like already said...its very common.
gina
Yeah, "Guys" and "Dude" are both genderless now. I also use "Man" a lot too.
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 05, 2008, 06:00:39 PM
if this catches on, Lisbeff, i'm going to beat thine a**
-Ellie
Thinkest thou so? Kennst where I have hidden mine crop?
[/quote]
Me thinkest this wouldst be fun to watch... pray tell, what dost thou thinkest? ;)
<z reaches for popcorn> >:D
Z
Quote from: J.T. on June 05, 2008, 06:10:13 PM
Yeah, "Guys" and "Dude" are both genderless now. I also use "Man" a lot too.
Now "man" really bothers me because I can't always tell whether they're saying "man" or "ma'am."
Quote from: Nichole on June 05, 2008, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: Kate on June 05, 2008, 10:32:18 AM
Whatcha mean? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or... ?
I meant pretty much exactly what I said. You're fortunate. You haven't experienced the pain that some have.
N~
I guess I'm fortunate too. :)
I got "Good night Gentlemen" last night at work, since I was working with a guy. I just laughed. He wasn't out to get me, he just misspoke, and it was more embarrassing for him than it was for me because I'm pretty comfortable where I sit. I just thought I'd share that story as it relates to this one.
Dude is pretty genderless, especially amongst my generation or younger. And I say "you guys" all the time.
In the event that someone does mis-represent your gender to you, just laugh. It's not you who should be embarrassed. They are the ones who committed the error.
Does not matter, need not be.
"guy", "dude" >> genderless. Agreed.
I've been addressed as 'sir' at work while wearing a very feminine dress. That one still gets me, the "I know what you REALLY are 'sir'".
I haven't yet figured out a comeback that will establish boundaries without potentially bringing on a counseling statement from a section supervisor who wishes to protect the rights of people who wish to address me as 'sir'.
Karen
Quote from: Rachael on June 05, 2008, 05:58:25 PMive NEVER heard a natal female protest about someone refering to the group they are in as 'you guys' EVER
I have. Feminists (especially of my generation and older) often take exception to that sort of thing.
Well.... feminists will take offence at anything remotely male or equal....
feminists can be as bad as misogynists... its swings and roundabouts.
_I_ personally, have never heard anyone complain, then again, i dont hang out with hardcore feminists, or even want to.
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on June 07, 2008, 12:52:25 PM
Well.... feminists will take offence at anything remotely male or equal....
feminists can be as bad as misogynists... its swings and roundabouts.
_I_ personally, have never heard anyone complain, then again, i dont hang out with hardcore feminists, or even want to.
R >:D
i totally agree (with Rachael?)
-Ell
Its become almost a standard salutation when leaving one of the places I work to say "Bye bitches" regardless of who is there, or even better, if its nothing but guys. Blurring gender lines will do that to you.
Funny, all the people who think that 'biology is not destiny' but somehow, vocabulary is.
"You guys" has become a genderless way that a group, either same sex, or mixed male and female are commonly addressed. I've heard "you guys" so often that I don't even notice it anymore, although thinking about it now, I'm more likely to hear it when I'm out with a younger group.
Unless its "Youse guys" in which case you're in Jersey.
Or Philly or NYC.
Yeah, among younger people 'you guys' is pretty endemic and not a gender-marked word.
It seems to be more problematic for trans people who've not had much time IRL than for others.
N~
Quote from: Karen on June 07, 2008, 12:01:09 PM
"guy", "dude" >> genderless. Agreed.
I've been addressed as 'sir' at work while wearing a very feminine dress. That one still gets me, the "I know what you REALLY are 'sir'".
I haven't yet figured out a comeback that will establish boundaries without potentially bringing on a counseling statement from a section supervisor who wishes to protect the rights of people who wish to address me as 'sir'.
Karen
I'm assuming it is a man who does this. My suggestion is to respond by calling him Ma'am, Miss or anything else incongruous to his gender. Turn-about is fair play in this case. Have some of your girlfriends at work do the same. That should give him a taste of how it feels to make someone uncomfortable. You have as much right as he to use incorrect terms.
Just my 2ยข,
Karen Lyn
It's a good idea KarenLyn, but I wouldn't assume it's a man. I understand women do the same thing.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on June 07, 2008, 06:19:20 PM
It's a good idea KarenLyn, but I wouldn't assume it's a man. I understand women do the same thing.
Nichole
I think it would work just as well with a woman if not even better. It wouldn't just be turning it about, but doing the exact same thing. The look on their face would be priceless either way... ;)
I couldn't agree more, sir.
I wouldn't be too offended by 'you guys'. I have a woman friend who says that all the time, doesn't matter who she's addressing, and her little daughter says it too. And let me add, she is no feminist.
Here in Oz, men often call other men and women 'mate'. Now I hate that term, but its part of our culture, and you can't fight something that is so ingrained in the culture. :)
I don't mind being called, while in a group, "guys". What I don't like is when they start stamering and saying I meant girls or something like that. That just irritates me.
Yah.....it used to pluck my nerves. But now I'm not so hyper-sensitive.
Dude, just call me
Bev