This question has been burning inside me for some time now. Our FTM and MTF brothers and sisters have "a path" that they can take to make changes to help them be who they feel they should be, and I find myself a bit jealous of them at times. I'll always be "stuck" somewhere in the middle, with either extreme not suitable/a solution for me, and with me not fitting in with either a male or female world.
or as Kristi said, "stuck in the middle with you", a fine gerry rafferty song.
Anyone else find this frustrating? or is it just me? :embarrassed:
Its frustrating, but its also liberating. You can be what you want to be. And change your mind about it as your mind changes. Yeah, its not like we have a map, or a guide, we're just kind of making it up as we go. We're just kind of "Saints Of Circumstance."
Never could read no road-map
No I don't know what the weather might do
But hear that witch wind whining
See that dog star shining
I got a feelin' there's no time to lose
No time to lose
I never know, no, no
Just don't ever know
Never know, no
Never can hear 'Stuck in the Middle w/ You' without thinking about Reservoir Dogs and that ear scene. Good Times.
Hi Riven_One. I am certainly looking forward to seeing any responses you get. There were many years I thought I was asexual and I was comfortable being just that. Some time later when I came back to Susan's here post-op I discovered androgyne and what this term meant. I was almost convinced there was a possibility I maybe androgyne, I certainly could identify with many of their traits. After some discussion with Pica Pica and Rebis I discovered I was where I was supposed to be, a trans female.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on June 11, 2008, 12:44:46 AM
Hi Riven_One. I am certainly looking forward to seeing any responses you get. There were many years I thought I was asexual and I was comfortable being just that. Some time later when I came back to Susan's here post-op I discovered androgyne and what this term meant. I was almost convinced there was a possibility I maybe androgyne, I certainly could identify with many of their traits. After some discussion with Pica Pica and Rebis I discovered I was where I was supposed to be, a trans female.
Cindy
Well, i'm probably gonna stir it up with this thread, but that is ok, and is why we are here, right? and the question bears answering, even if the answer is "no answer". As I said before, i'm glad to finally understand myself but am sad that there appears to be "nothing" that I can do to "fix" the situation, the situation being that I simply do not fit in, and am always on the outside of every situation due to being "different". And I want to hear what other people think/do in this situation, because for me it has become intolerable, and rather lonely.
If you don't really fit in anywhere, you can go everywhere cause its all the same. Its a weird freedom, but it is freedom.
Quote from: tekla on June 11, 2008, 01:22:01 AM
If you don't really fit in anywhere, you can go everywhere cause its all the same. Its a weird freedom, but it is freedom.
You are right, and i need to seize this vision. Today has not been a good day for me :embarrassed:
Hey Riven_One.
I understand what you are saying. I have friends who love and care for me, but don't really understand what it's like. They all knew me before I admitted to anyone (even myself) that I wasn't a man, and they think it is some kind of reaction to working too much. I wish that were the case as I could change jobs and never feel this lost again. But we all know that's not gonna happen.
I made the big step (for me) last weekend to visit the Info Fair at the local LBGT center. Took a bit to find the "T" folks, but I finally did and found out about some meetings and social activities. I'm going to make a real effort to attend and get involved. As much support as I've gotten from Susan's, and you guys are fantastic, I need more than just an online family to make things work. It is just too hard and lonely on my own.
Tekla is right in saying there is a freedom outside the gender norms, and I do my best to revel in that freedom as often as possible...hehehe...but there is also a loneliness that creeps in for those of us who live alone. Sadly, there aren't a lot of "gently aged" women who are looking for people like us, so that makes the dating scene a little tricky too...just another little pat of butter on the cardboard pancakes of life.
It is also true that the only person who is completely free is the one who has nothing. And having nothing (and that includes relationships) really sucks.
OK, so now that we are all completely depressed, would anyone like a cup of coffee and some cookies? Sorry, I'm saving the chocolate for when things really get bad.
....L
Hi Riven_one, My goodness being considered as weird was my middle name through all those years before I transitioned. Being actually thought as weird gave me a bit of an edge during my early transition, everyone thought I was an odd ball anyway so why not transition. Well being different I certainly was but after I began to understand who I truly was, I had a new reason why I did not want to continue being different anymore. I just wanted to be a normal woman. I no longer want to be odd or weird anymore after I discovered who I was. Loneliness? Yes of course I was lonely. At the age of 52, I realised that being trans there was a good possibility I maybe living the rest of my life alone. I realised that I didn't want to be alone anymore.
I needed someone in my life, I just couldn't think of any thing else that would ease the loneliness. Well as it turned out it was like Great Spirit answered my prayers and not long after I met another girl from this group, that was six years ago. Now we have lived together for going on 4 years. It has been the best of any reunion I have ever had before with previous relationships. She is a wonderful loving caring lady. I some time call her mommy just to bug her, "hee, hee," well sometimes it feels like she is my mommy. I am a tiny person and love to cuddle up to her. She is truly a wonderful soul and in a way I saved her from falling off the edge of the world. She is the most precious mommy in the world, I love life and I love living each new day with my soul mate. ;D
Again I will pray that you find your comfort zone. I am not certain if I hit any of what you need in this post but just keep what you feel is for you and discard what doesnt
Cindy
being in the middle means finding you own path for me its a path of "gender ->-bleeped-<-" other people its middle of road defining your true self is a complex and confusing journey that we are lucky to define for ourselves as no-one knows exactly what it feels like to be you.
I'm trying to find my true self and its an amazing rolercoster of self discovery
As Tekla said, we have freedom to be ourselves. This is a wonderful thing, and sometimes a difficult one too. It's been 15 years since I transitioned M2F and then later realized I was neither gender, and I'm still figuring out how this all works, so to speak. Sometimes, I still feel as though I'm only just beginning. Like you Riven-one, I too have my bad days.
As Laurry said, having this wonderful online family isn't enough, I also find it's important to have a community where I live. I'm currently finding that I need to be more active in outreach and education about what it means to be non binary gender, and have recently started blogging about my own journey. My partner and I have been invited to do a presentation as part of a diversity training session this Friday. I'm really excited about that. The more I can do like this, the better.
Zythyra
I agree with everyone else. It's a freedom to be ourselves. I have days when I wish there was a clear answer and then I have other days where that freedom is exactly what I want. But on the whole, I prefer the freedom that being androgyne provides. I have a (sometimes bad) habit of saying and doing whatever I want anyway, everyone else be damned, so it works for me most of the time. But then again, sometimes I wish there was a little androgyne colony I could go live in where no binary exists so I don't have to think about it anymore.
It took me a long time to realize how much freedom there is in being androgyne and how nice it is to have room to breathe. :) It grows on you.
QuoteRe: OK, so i'm androgyne. Now what?
so now you get to be IN the world while simultaneously holding it in your hand and observing it.
Once you can do that while standing on one foot. You'll be a master magician.
Welcome to the clan, I mean, club. :)
Hi Rebis hon, interesting avatar. If you don't put glasses on it sure can do a number on the imagination. ;D
Cindy
Thanks, Cindy.
Quote from: Rebis on June 13, 2008, 11:27:46 PM
Once you can do that while standing on one foot.
I'm screwed :D
Thanks for the responses. I'm trying to see all of this in a different way in my life right now.
Quote from: riven_one on June 11, 2008, 12:26:22 AM
Anyone else find this frustrating? or is it just me? :embarrassed:
I find it quite frustrating also. Around spring and summer time I usually feel much more feminine. I find myself wanting to change my body in a more feminine direction. But I also know that I won't continue to feel that way.
I'm well into middle age and I get the impression that those who are younger these days may be more comfortable with living their life in the middle than I am.
Hi MichelleT
Well I was in a similar situation when it came time for me to make my decision there wasn't any doubt in my mind what I wanted to do. Since I was 52 years old at the time I realised that time was fast passing me by and I realised there wasn't any more time left to wast. Now as I sit here as female as medical science can make me, at 62 I have accepted who I am, a woman in every way that I can be and I am happy. I deserve to be happy, my life has been a hard one but now it's time to reap the harvest. My journey may have been difficult but it is good now. Still I wish I would have done transitioning sooner.
It's your choice hon.
Cindy
Hi cindybc,
It seems to me that making that kind of choice and going through with it would take a huge amount of motivation. I don't see how an androgyne could have and sustain that kind of motivation.
Your tagline says "I am woman". Mine would be "Sometimes I am woman and sometimes I am man".
Hi again MichelleT
No problem hon. You are who you are and in my own oppinion it doesn't make me feel less of a freind to you. I am always oppen to chating and sharing.
Have a wonderful evening.
Cindy
Quote from: MichelleT on June 14, 2008, 07:36:47 PM
Hi cindybc,
It seems to me that making that kind of choice and going through with it would take a huge amount of motivation. I don't see how an androgyne could have and sustain that kind of motivation.
Your tagline says "I am woman". Mine would be "Sometimes I am woman and sometimes I am man".
Transition can be very wrong for many androgynes. Once you have transitioned, then what? You may not have gained anything at all and lost a lot.
I am not saying it is wrong either, some androgynes are more close to T.S. than androgyne and possibly should transition just as some T.S. are probably closer to androgyne and probably shouldn't. Either way it is not something to be taken lightly, this is just one of the reasons there are gatekeepers.
I quite agree with sd, I had no problems with my psychiatrist the endo's, the assessors and the gatekeepers and it was four years later before SRS so I believe that in that amount of time it didn't leave much doubt of any kind in my mind as to who I am.
Cindy
I'm new to this world myself, and can relate to what the question ".....Now what?"
I've always had gender isues, I just never realy new what they were. It's only recently that I found out what androgyny was. Now that i know what it is what do I do with it? I had that question before, I just didn't know what to call "it". Not gay, but not realy strait either. This realy is quite confussing.
Quote from: sd on June 14, 2008, 09:59:28 PM
I am not saying it is wrong either, some androgynes are more close to T.S. than androgyne and possibly should transition just as some T.S. are probably closer to androgyne and probably shouldn't.
Indeed. There are no sharp lines between the categories, it's more a matter of dividing a continuum into sections, and therefore the lines must be somewhat arbitrary. Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.
We've had on this forum people who are clearly TS but with a neutrois or mixed target gender, and also people who are at a point on the GID scale where an androgynous presentation is the best option. In other words, just like you say. Moreover, at least for me the variety has been very helpful.
Quote from: Daisyz on June 15, 2008, 12:31:05 AM
It's only recently that I found out what androgyny was. Now that i know what it is what do I do with it?
What do you
want to do with it?
For me the big thing here was realising that ultimately my problems with gender (as a social construct) were about having to conform to the expectations. I wasn't happy pretending to be a man all the time, but I wouldn't be any more happy pretending to be a woman all the time. It's much better to be me, regardless of whether people see that me as masculine or feminine.
It's in fact what quite a few of the transsexuals over here say: they too only succeed in transition by being themselves, not by trying to be what they think (pre-transition) their target gender is. So, in short, do what feels right for you; if at some point you find that changing your legal gender makes life easier do that, but meanwhile don't worry too much about such things. By realising you are neither completely female nor completely male you have gained a lot of freedom. I'm afraid it's up to you to decide what to do with it.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 05:13:29 AM
Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.
I think more than a few might argue with that statement. For some who identify as androgyne there can be just as much dysphoria.
Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 05:34:14 AM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 05:13:29 AM
Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.
I think more than a few might argue with that statement. For some who identify as androgyne there can be just as much dysphoria.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that
androgyne is on the same plane as
man,
woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while
transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from
cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 10:06:36 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that androgyne is on the same plane as man, woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.
Nfr
Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
Hi SD I believe I got lost on that one as well. I guess my old bean isn't as sharp as it use to be.
Cindy
Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 10:06:36 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that androgyne is on the same plane as man, woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.
Nfr
Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
If I'm understanding Nfr correctly...
Transsexual is a vector rather than a location. It's specifying anatomical sex being different to identified sex (though transsexual is often used in a broader sense that doesn't just pertain to body image). Androgyne on the other hand is a location not a vector, and is about gender in general not just about body sex (indeed a lot of androgynes don't experience body dysphoria). They don't exist on the same continuum because they're not about the same thing.
Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 03:15:06 PM
If I'm understanding Nfr correctly...
Transsexual is a vector rather than a location. It's specifying anatomical sex being different to identified sex (though transsexual is often used in a broader sense that doesn't just pertain to body image). Androgyne on the other hand is a location not a vector, and is about gender in general not just about body sex (indeed a lot of androgynes don't experience body dysphoria). They don't exist on the same continuum because they're not about the same thing.
Not to play devil's advocate, but what of those who are borderline between the two?
A distinction like that tries to make the two very different, when I don't think they are that far off, granted it could depend on how you identify (or what type of androgyne you are?). For some it may be worlds apart, but for some, there seems to be a
very fine line separating androgyne from T.S.
Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 04:51:27 PM
Not to play devil's advocate, but what of those who are borderline between the two?
A distinction like that tries to make the two very different, when I don't think they are that far off, granted it could depend on how you identify (or what type of androgyne you are?). For some it may be worlds apart, but for some, there seems to be a very fine line separating androgyne from T.S.
I think you're still missing the point. Like NFr said, it's perfectly possible to be fully androgyne AND TS, androgyne because of their gender identity and transsexual because their body doesn't match their mental image of how it's supposed to be. Being transsexual isn't a binary only process, people can desire transition to a physically androgynous or physically neutered state (or any other mixture of sex characteristics).
You can be a male bodied person who identifies as female and not be TS because you don't experience body dysphoria, on the other hand you can be a male bodied person who identifies as mostly male and be TS because you DO experience body dysphoria.
Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 05:02:20 PM
I think you're still missing the point.
I did, I think I get what you are saying now.
Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 05:02:20 PM
I think you're still missing the point. Like NFr said, it's perfectly possible to be fully androgyne AND TS, androgyne because of their gender identity and transsexual because their body doesn't match their mental image of how it's supposed to be. Being transsexual isn't a binary only process, people can desire transition to a physically androgynous or physically neutered state (or any other mixture of sex characteristics).
I agree that it's possible to be both, although this option isn't supported by a majority of TS people. If I hadn't found the term androgyne, I'd likely identify as non-binary, non-op, non HRT (for now) TS/TG. Of course, we know the hot water that'd get me into, so probably safer to just say that I'm androgyne. ;)
Zythyra
Quote from: Zythyra on June 15, 2008, 06:19:07 PM
I agree that it's possible to be both, although this option isn't supported by a majority of TS people. If I hadn't found the term androgyne, I'd likely identify as non-binary, non-op, non HRT (for now) TS/TG. Of course, we know the hot water that'd get me into, so probably safer to just say that I'm androgyne. ;)
Zythyra
Hehe, yeah, identifying as a non-binary TS has gotten me into hot water with a few people... I've never been one to go for the safer option though :p
Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 06:26:45 PM
Hehe, yeah, identifying as a non-binary TS has gotten me into hot water with a few people... I've never been one to go for the safer option though :p
I'd say "go grrrrl", however if there's a better phrase for a non-binary person, let me know and I'll use it. Anyway, some of us will end up in hot water no matter what we call ourselves, so we might as well jump in.
Z
Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:15:06 PM
Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
What I was trying to say is pretty much what A&Z already figured out. That is,
androgyne is a gender and
transsexual is a condition where the mismatch between one's gender and sex is severe enough. It's really pretty much how these terms are used here, although different people have different ideas of what's 'severe enough', and also quite a few don't really recognise androgyne as a valid gender in this context (and so consider TS as being just between male and female).
So, what I'm saying is that it is possible to have an androgyne gender without being transsexual (for example, for someone who doesn't really care about their physical sex, or for an intersexed person who's happy with their anatomy); it is possible to be transsexual and have some other gender (just look around in some of these forums); it's possible to be neither (just look around next time you walk out the door); and it's possible to be both (I really can't think what
else call someone like Andra, who if I remember correctly was recently approved for surgery). And, of course, it's possible to be borderline regarding either of these (say, not quite TS enough to transition, or straddling the line between androgyne and female).
Nfr
Quote from: riven_one on June 11, 2008, 12:26:22 AM
This question has been burning inside me for some time now. Our FTM and MTF brothers and sisters have "a path" that they can take to make changes to help them be who they feel they should be, and I find myself a bit jealous of them at times. I'll always be "stuck" somewhere in the middle, with either extreme not suitable/a solution for me, and with me not fitting in with either a male or female world.
or as Kristi said, "stuck in the middle with you", a fine gerry rafferty song.
Anyone else find this frustrating? or is it just me? :embarrassed:
I feel very happy where I see myself positioned in society.
My problem is how I can show it to all the other people? I guess most of my friends and aquaintences know that I'm not the manly type, but I'm much more than that and want people on the street to know that.
But how? I don't want to seem like a failed crossdresser or one of those awful fashion-obsessed metrosexuals.