I'm having a process in my mind now as to how I want to live the rest of my life now that I am in mid transition. My therapist asked me "Am I a "Transwoman" or a woman?" Clearly, I am trans but what I wonder is that should I wear my trans status "on my sleeve". I pass most of the time and it is very tempting now to blend in and go deep stealth. This affords me a lot of options and some confrontations I don't have to worry about. In that sense, I am inclined to say I am just a woman. However, I am angry about the HRC situation and that the leadership in the Congress wigged out on this most central of issues to LBGT rights. I mean, it is appearance and behavior that usually causes the discrimination. Are we to deal with a "Don't ask Don't tell" situation instead? Seriously.
OK, back to my issue. I have written a lot and posted a lot on other forums. I am writing a novel based on my life that will highlight many trans issues. What more should I do? Can I get comfortable in a march being such a private person? Will I fit in with a generally younger population of transfolk activists? My older friend went to the Trans march in SF over the weekend and she had a great time but it was not possible for me to go. I have been thinking that if it was all that important to me I would have gone. It would have been a major hardship for me to go both financially and physically but if it was so important to be counted shouldn't I have been there? Maybe, I am one of the deep stealth transwomen.
Maggie
Hi Maggie, good to see you back posting. :icon_hug:
Are there just the binary choices? Deep stealth or out? Or could there be some middle-ground here?
I haven't the desire to march or directly appear at some sort of rally or hearing either. I don't care for either the publicity or feel a need to "be the voice of the community." I'm not sure how one would do that anyway. I think the community has many voices and they don't all speak with the same mind or words.
OTH, I do intend to try to practice with a clientele of TS/TG people as well as trauma survivors, addicts and women. Those are the areas I know and I feel a kinship with.
Of course to make that practice work I have to advertize it. On the web and in that regard certainly, and with hoped-for word-of-mouth, I fully expect to become "known."
And I also think of people across the country who are Episcopalians, Baptists, Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Libertarians, ecologists, and a host of other labels who quietly go about their lives voting, speaking to one another and their neighbors and friends, signing petitions and generally supporting what they believe in with money and time who are definitely not "out." They are somewhere between.
For me, that seems about right.
Love,
Nichole
I don't live at either of those extremes. Pretty much I don't go around telling unless it is pertinent to the situation such as dealing with my health or a partner. My closer friends know I'm TS and my purpose in that is I feel much more relaxed and comfortable around them than I do if I feel I'm hiding some "secret". Of course there's also many people in my life who don't know. It's just a big balance and I find the middle ground much easier.
Maggie:
I consider myself to be a bit of both.
In my life, everyone who knows me, also know that I have GID and I am recovering from it through the wonders of medical science and surgery. ;D
Most of everyone who has known me in the past knew me as that other guy. So in that respect, I could not "go stealth". I was not about to sever all connections with my past and start a new life as a deep stealth woman. I am out in my life. I am proud and I am an activist.
I personally feel that the days of people having to "die" in their old life and construct a new life as a woman were done primarily do allow that person to have a productive life. See Lyn Conway's website. She was a very successful engineer for IBM and was summarily terminated when she came out. She spent the better part of a decade rebuilding her life as a deep stealth woman so that she could get a job as an entry level technician and rebuild her life from there.
But because of her efforts and the efforts of transsexuals since then I have been given the ability to transition in my life. No lying, no starting over. Just transition. Starting as the guy and over time becoming the person I have always been, Sandra.
Now to the person on the street, they see a woman. Very few pick up or have a clue that I was not born with a female body. And I prefer to keep it this way. I don't need to wear a sign around my neck that says "TRANSSEXUAL!!!". But if someone does read me I have no fear of admitting that I was born a male bodied female.
Actually, Maggie, you have accomplished much of the same. You have transitioned in your life. You did not have to "die" and start again somewhere else. There was no need. And I think that the acceptance you received from your customers is most touching and most telling of the attitudes that exist today. Not the fundy right wing religious zealots who think that all trans women are men in dresses and pedophiles wanting to invade the ladies rooms and attack children.
Now to read a bit more into the question your therapist asked. I take the question to mean: "How do you feel about yourself inside?"
Are you a woman? Or do you see yourself as a transwoman.
I consider myself to be a woman with a transsexual condition. I've always been female, but with a birth defect. I have always been a woman and other women can have other afflictions, like diabetes. It makes them no less female to be diabetic. And I consider myself no less female because it took a long time to diagnose my condition.
I'm a bit long winded today, Maggie, I hope I haven't bored you.
-Sandy
I am prone towards being an activist. I protested at college demonstrations in the early 1970's against the illegal war activity by Nixon in Cambodia. Thirty years ago, I was an environmentalist. I was instrumental in stopping a local factory from buying a farm near my acreage and turning it into a toxic waste site. Then I was point person on a committee for technical reasons to stop a garbage incinerator that was proposed to be put in the middle of a dairy farming region. I was so vocal at public meetings that I was asked to run for Township Supervisor. I turned that down. Oh yes, I also built a solar home in the late 1970's and it was featured in a survey of innovative solar homes in Pennsylvania of which there were a total of four at the time. I planted 100 Norway Spruce trees on the property to green it up. We got rid of our car in the late 1980's and walked or took the bus for four years. To save energy, we have not had the heat on in the winter here in our house for twenty years. Our electric and gas bill is $60 a month, We dry our clothes outside on a portable clothes line. So I am really one that can be swayed to activism. However, I'm 57 this month and no spring chicken. Activism takes a lot of energy and I did my part. Still, I write a lot and will comment on things that are important when I see the need. My book may be a story that helps some understand what it is like to be a transwoman and some of the problems we face coping with it. I suppose I can't hide when it gets published.
Sandy, you are right, my customers are supportive and still are now even though I got one or two misogynistic comments on my forum lately. It seems that my current issue in my business is not acceptance that I am a woman, rather, it is that some men speak of women in derogatory ways. SO now I am a feminist. Didn't see that one coming....
The therapist said the trans vs woman thing to me to get me thinking about the difference between thinking of the condition of being trans and the underlying basis which is that I am a woman in a male body. Well, it was a male body.... The notion that I can be obsessed with trans issues and miss the reality of the fact that I need to get on with my life as a woman was brought home when she said it. The short form of this is "GROW UP, you are done being a trans child". A message that I am getting loud and clear.
Maggie
Maggie, I don't think deep stealth is in anyones cards. I believe that if one person knows the whole world will know. So, saying that, I think that you can go out and call yourself a woman if you want and be part of the activists group if that is what your so incline to do. It really is up to you and what you like to do. You don't have to tell everyone you meet or anyone that you are trans. Go on and live your life the way it should be. Stop thinking about yourself as trans, it is a waste of time.
Quote from: Nichole on July 01, 2008, 12:00:52 PM
Are there just the binary choices? Deep stealth or out? Or could there be some middle-ground here?
I agree on the middle ground part. There's no reason most of us can't be highly active for trans rights without being openly transsexual or harry benjamin syndrome.
After all, the purpose isn't to sell your story for sympathy. The purpose of activism is to force the realization on the population that they are severely mistreating a minority group either through bigotry or ignorance or a combination of both and it needs to stop.
Anyone can make that their mission, it doesn't just have to be transsexuals that speak up for themselves.
One of the guys I met who has been hugely responsible for pointing me in the right direction jokes that he's the most out stealth guy there is. On the one hand he's helpful to transpeople, he consults with businesses when employees come out (education), he guest lectures at a university, and he's helped train therapists on gender issues. On the other hand in his personal life, he's stealth for the most part, it's on a need to know basis. He says it works for him because rarely do his two worlds collide.
I envision something similar for myself. If I stay in my current location, deep stealth isn't an option as I have to come out at work. OTOH I own property I want to retire on in an area of the country that probably isn't very trans-friendly, but it is far enough away from here where I could be stealth for the most part.
In my daily life I don't want to wear the I'm Trans! tee shirt. OTOH I'm not ashamed of it, but I don't think that I need to tell everyone I meet.
Jay
I dont feel the need to tell everyone I meet that Im not cisgendered,
but I have no problems outing myself in an activist setting. I am, and will always be, an activist. Gender and sexuality are my passions (or two of them). Maybe its different for me since I'm genderqueer, asexual, sexradical and not heteroemotional? Most transwomen I know (and I only know them because we're members of the same organization or I got to know them before they decided to go stealth) live stealth. Some of them even live so stealth that they are having fake periods. Most transmen I know dont wish to live stealth and most of them are transactivists . :p
Deep stealth or activist?
Make it your choice!
Quote from: Jeannette on July 01, 2008, 07:01:11 PM
Deep stealth or activist?
Make it your choice!
Word sister!
I am not "transgender-identified"--I'm woman-identified. Many people assume that I must "identify as transgender." No, I do not. I identify as a woman. Transsexualism for me is an affliction that I've dealt with; it cannot be an identity. I'm open about the fact that I'm transsexual, same as I would be if I were a cancer survivor, but I don't want to call attention to it or make it the core focus of my life. I simply live my life as a woman and I don't wear transsexualism on my sleeve. I'd really like to get past the whole complex about being "trans" and just get down to living my life like anyone else.
I've never considered going "deep stealth," it seems more trouble than it's worth. If anyone clocks me as trans, so be it. I won't deny it if anyone asks, though I prefer not to bring up the subject. I hope by my attitude showing that it's no big deal, more people will get the idea that we're just folks. I really want nothing more than to assimilate into regular female society.
I also participate in LGBT activism. I'm bi with lesbian tendencies, so that alone is enough to get me involved. Even if I were straight, I'd still be an activist for gay equality, just because it's the right thing to do. Likewise, even if I were cisgender, I'd still be an activist for transgender rights. I got involved in LGBT activism actually more because of lesbian issues. But I see LGBT as a solidarity so I'm in it for transgender rights too. I belong to LGBT, lesbian, or general women's groups rather than specifically transgender groups. When I went to one LGBT conference, they had a women's circle and a transgender group. I spent all my time in the women's group, which shows where my life is aligned. For me it isn't about being trans, it's about being a woman. Transsexualism is just the route by which I arrived at womanhood, the long way around.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 01, 2008, 11:49:02 AM
Can I get comfortable in a march being such a private person?
A very personal decison, but as others have said, there's a lot you can do without "outing" yourself everywhere you go. Heck, even if you DID go march somewhere with a
"I am a transsexual!" banner stuck to your forehead, would it have any effect on your normal life back home? Assuming you took the banner off of course, lol...
For me though, I'll be leaving it all behind soon. I have to. My intention from the very beginning wasn't just to "live as a female," it was also to eradicate the GID, to not obsess about it anymore. To "fix" things, drop the subject entirely, and get back to a "normal" life. At this point, I'm the only one obsessing about this all anymore... the people in my life are waaaaay over it and bored with me now, lol. For me, to be an activist fighting for TS rights (or even for women's rights in general) would still have me obsessing on GID and gender, and after 44 years of it... I need a break, lol.
The catch though is I LOVE you people! You're the darn most interesting, compassionate and insightful people I've ever met. Plus the subject itself IS fascinating on it's own, regardless of my personal interest in it. And I keep seeing new people join, saying the things I said, going through what I went through, and I SO badly wanna always say,
"I know how you feel..." and hold their hand. But it's almost TOO much anymore, like watching a flood you can't stop...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on July 02, 2008, 10:47:22 AM
And I keep seeing new people join, saying the things I said, going through what I went through, and I SO badly wanna always say, "I know how you feel..." and hold their hand. But it's almost TOO much anymore, like watching a flood you can't stop...
~Kate~
I am one who is grateful for your help, and already I can see how far I've come in my journey when new people arrive also.
QuoteMy intention from the very beginning wasn't just to "live as a female," it was also to eradicate the GID, to not obsess about it anymore. To "fix" things, drop the subject entirely, and get back to a "normal" life.
This is my goal also, as all I've ever wanted was to live life as ME. I'm not sure where I'll land exactly when I come out the other side.
Jay
I want to be as stealth as I can get. My biological history shall be available on a strictly need to know basis. Just because I was born a certain way doesn't mean everyone needs to know about it.
My trans status is something I really only think about when society brings it up to me. My friends never bring it up, so I just don't think about it that often. And when I do, I try not to be bothered by it. I just try to laugh, and keep a smile about anything like that. I have other goals in my life that don't have anything to do with my gender status.
There is a middle ground between stealth and out & loud activist. I don't scream and carry on at demonstrations, though I have shown up for some. My activism consists of giving my time and energy to help trans people. I serve on a committee that advises university administrators on trans issues. Part of our organization is a Medical Center. We advise on educating MDs and nurses about the trans people they will see as patients. I volunteer to be a mentor to trans people seeking work. I allowed myself to become a model for legal gender change for non-ops. I do things that help the community but I don't stand on any soap boxes.
Quote from: Kate on July 02, 2008, 10:56:17 AMMy intention from the very beginning wasn't just to "live as a female," it was also to eradicate the GID, to not obsess about it anymore. To "fix" things, drop the subject entirely, and get back to a "normal" life.
What normal life would you be getting back to? What is normal?
It's been my experience that one can't go back to much of anything after a major life change or experience. I'm a pre-op transplant patient. I have a set of problems that I've learned to deal with. You wouldn't know to look at me I have a severe illness. One day this life I've made will start to unravel. Then I'll have the surgery and by grace of the Goddess, survive it. Will my life return to normal? No. I'll have another different set of problems to deal with. Besides the physical problems I've been permanently changed by the experience. Even if I could return I doubt it would make me happy. I'm not the same person.
I am nether, but I am leaning more to Activist. Basically because I have this feeling that I will be one with Lowe's. Not that I am going to have to fight for my rights, but because I have not found anything in the company's policy regarding transition or gender identity. This maybe new ground for them, especially when it comes to MtF. Especially being that the whole customer service thing. They may have issues in that department and I will have to show them that most customers probable not care as long as their needs are met.
I am sorry gentlemen but I think you guys may have an easier time than us ladies. Some of us girls need breast forms, wigs hip pads and butt pads ( at least I do ), and makeup that may be a little too heavy ( Not me Thank God ).
In my private life I guess you could say I am stealth. I don't go to gay bars or pride parades, although I do have a few Trans friends I know that I would not mind spending some more time with . I just want to live as a woman, a run-of-the-mill woman. No one special except may be to one special guy. I only come out as needed.
If I happen to be put in the limelight then I will have to become more vocal about issues. I appreciate all that the GLBT community does for us and me in particular regarding rights and freedom for discrimination.
My Humble Opinion,
Janet
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 02, 2008, 05:23:59 PM
Quote from: Kate on July 02, 2008, 10:56:17 AMMy intention from the very beginning wasn't just to "live as a female," it was also to eradicate the GID, to not obsess about it anymore. To "fix" things, drop the subject entirely, and get back to a "normal" life.
What normal life would you be getting back to? What is normal?
"Normal" for me is a life free of obsessing about gender 24/7. The actual subject of GID may not be a mental illness, but for me, the *obsession* it spawned kinda was. Everything I did, every thought I had since birth was appended with a
"yea but, you should be doing this as a girl" parasitical qualifier. I've never been entirely *present* in this lifetime because of that, neither for myself OR for other people (especially my wife), as everything... and I do mean EVERYthing... got translated first through the filter of,
"what does this mean for my GID?" before getting through to me.
Just as battle-worn war veterans often have trouble letting go of fighting once home, I'm aware of the temptation within myself to transfer my personal GID war to the world at large just to continue having someone or something to fight. After all, after four decades, it's pretty much all I know how to do.
But I ain't gonna. No more fighting. I'm takin' my lemonade and finding a nice cool spot in the shade to kick back and enjoy the autumn years of my life ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Janet Lynn on July 02, 2008, 07:19:45 PM
I am sorry gentlemen but I think you guys may have an easier time than us ladies. Some of us girls need breast forms, wigs hip pads and butt pads ( at least I do ), and makeup that may be a little too heavy ( Not me Thank God ).
But then again, you ladies will (if you choose to have SRS) have a (almost) fully functioning female genitalia. I mean, girls can live stealth for their entire life, even for their partner(s). How is it possible to live stealth when your genitalia looks 1) female with a very large clit (effects of T) 2) like a really small dick but without sperm coming out (metoidplasty) or 3) like a normal sized penis, but very unrealistic? Ok, so many of you girls have a problem with body hair and stuff.. but yeh. I dont think its easier for the guys. On the other hand, passing, outside.. on the street might work. Once you go to a place where you have to take of your clothes (locker rooms etc) then its harder for the guys.
You have a point there, Drik. But locker rooms are not fun for any of us.
I stand corrected.
Much Love,
Janet
True - I have been using the mens locker room for 5 months and Im not even on T yet.
I dont shower tho. Post-op MtFs shouldnt have any problems with locker rooms tho (most people wont think "omg a ->-bleeped-<-" if they see someone with breasts and female genitalia. No matter how much hair they have.).
Oh well, Im not sure what Im trying to say, its 2:47am here :P
Drik, you just gotta invest in a great prosthetic! That's what I plan on doing.
Jay
Uhm, yeh. Ive tested prosthetics.
From FtM Prosthetics (http://www.ftmprosthetics.com/about.htm#) from Australia.
With his glue (ive tried a small flaccid, and one medium dual) they will fall off when you sweat.
At least thats what they did on me. >.>
Quote from: Drik on July 03, 2008, 04:06:29 AM
Uhm, yeh. Ive tested prosthetics.
From FtM Prosthetics (http://www.ftmprosthetics.com/about.htm#) from Australia.
With his glue (ive tried a small flaccid, and one medium dual) they will fall off when you sweat.
At least thats what they did on me. >.>
Interesting. The people I've contacted on other lists that have either the ftm or lola jake say that they don't come off easily for at least 2 days. Did you use the extra strength adhesive? Maybe body chemistry does have something to do with it. Hmmm.
Jay (who really wants an ftm product!)
Quote from: sneakersjay on July 03, 2008, 05:48:17 AM
Interesting. The people I've contacted on other lists that have either the ftm or lola jake say that they don't come off easily for at least 2 days. Did you use the extra strength adhesive? Maybe body chemistry does have something to do with it. Hmmm.
Jay (who really wants an ftm product!)
Ah, interesting. Could be because I tested them in a sauna though, and at the gym.
Could also have something to do with body chemistry. I guess I should mention that I would not be able to afford prosthetics. I and a couple of other FtMs are working on a prosthesis project in Sweden. We applied for money and bought two prostheses. FtMs are now able to get prostheses subscribed when they are diagnosed with GID (in Stockholm). Oh my. Im so OT. Sorry!
Thought this topic was about deep stealth or activist & not FTM prosthetics ::)
Yeah, I know. >.>
If one is an activist during transition (until srs or new legal gender) isnt it very hard to go deep stealth afterwards? I mean, if ones name is all over the place, then one would have to change ones name. Personally, I think that if I stopped being an activist and decided to go deep stealth, then I would loose many of my friends. Cause, if one goes deep stealth, one will be outed if one hang around queers and transpeople, right? I dont know
"Deep Stealth or Activist"
You make it sound like it's some sort of dualistic choice; it must be one or the other.
Did it ever occur to you that people can just be "out"?
Not hiding but not fighting either?
That is an option.
A lot of people do it.
Most people who are out do help in some sort of activism, but not all, and it's certainly not a requirement.
One can just be "out".
-Sara
Quote from: Drik on July 03, 2008, 06:39:16 AM
Yeah, I know. >.>
If one is an activist during transition (until srs or new legal gender) isnt it very hard to go deep stealth afterwards? I mean, if ones name is all over the place, then one would have to change ones name. Personally, I think that if I stopped being an activist and decided to go deep stealth, then I would loose many of my friends. Cause, if one goes deep stealth, one will be outed if one hang around queers and transpeople, right? I dont know
Most of my best friends are queers and transpeople. I won't date men that don't identify as bi or queer. Becoming part of the queer community has been liberating and I don't want to return to the straight world. I was miserable there as a man and I don't think being woman will be much better. As an FTM you're gaining male privilege. As MTFs we lose it.
I accept that others may feel differently but but for me stealth sounds an awful lot like closeted.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 03, 2008, 06:32:29 PM
Most of my best friends are queers and transpeople. I won't date men that don't identify as bi or queer. Becoming part of the queer community has been liberating and I don't want to return to the straight world. I was miserable there as a man and I don't think being woman will be much better. As an FTM you're gaining male privilege. As MTFs we lose it.
I accept that others may feel differently but but for me stealth sounds an awful lot like closeted.
I'm not really sure why you quoted me. I wasnt trying to say that you cant have trans or queer friends when you're done transitioning. I meant that its hard to live stealth if yuo have a lot of friends who are transgendered. Im sorry if I didnt make any sense earlier, or if Im not making any sense now. Explaining what I think and believe is not something Im good at :/
Unfortunately, many MtFs still think that they have male privilege (im not talking about anyone here) even after many years as legally female and many FtMs refuse to accept that they've gained male privilege.
Quote from: Drik on July 03, 2008, 06:54:26 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 03, 2008, 06:32:29 PM
Most of my best friends are queers and transpeople. I won't date men that don't identify as bi or queer. Becoming part of the queer community has been liberating and I don't want to return to the straight world. I was miserable there as a man and I don't think being woman will be much better. As an FTM you're gaining male privilege. As MTFs we lose it.
I accept that others may feel differently but but for me stealth sounds an awful lot like closeted.
I'm not really sure why you quoted me. I wasnt trying to say that you cant have trans or queer friends when you're done transitioning. I meant that its hard to live stealth if yuo have a lot of friends who are transgendered. Im sorry if I didnt make any sense earlier, or if Im not making any sense now. Explaining what I think and believe is not something Im good at :/
Unfortunately, many MtFs still think that they have male privilege (im not talking about anyone here) even after many years as legally female and many FtMs refuse to accept that they've gained male privilege.
No offense was intended. I think I come off in writing as much more strident than I really am. In making decisions about how to live ones life there are very few absolutes. We all choose the paths that seem most appropriate to us. It's easy for MtFs to forget our
reduced circumstance in regards to male privilege :) I'm guilty of it myself on occasion. We need to develop different strategies to get our way. Feminine wiles I think it's called!
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 03, 2008, 07:32:34 PM
It's easy for MtFs to forget our reduced circumstance in regards to male privilege :)
For example... ?
I'm not really sure I know what "male privilege" is? Or was, lol?
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on July 03, 2008, 07:37:12 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 03, 2008, 07:32:34 PM
Its easy for MtFs to forget our reduced circumstance in regards to male privilege :)
For example... ?
Im not really sure I know what male privilege is? Or was, lol?
~Kate~
Me neither. Lol :laugh:
Male privilege is like that notion that guys have that whenever they are talking they must be listened to because they are guys. Male privilege is a whole slew of things most guys and most girls don't even think about, that exist because of centuries of oppression of females.
Male privilege is anything that you come into as an advantage of being male, or having been male, which exists because of oppression.
White privilege is another thing like that.
Guess it doesnt apply to me then. Ive always been the one oppressed by men. When my Grs is done sometime next year, my trans world will end with it. Yea some peeps will still know but I wont be pontificating about it anymore.
Quote from: Kate on July 03, 2008, 07:37:12 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 03, 2008, 07:32:34 PM
It's easy for MtFs to forget our reduced circumstance in regards to male privilege :)
For example... ?
I'm not really sure I know what "male privilege" is? Or was, lol?
~Kate~
Here we go Kate, Feminism 101 :D This is an excerpt of a longer essay you might want to look at.
When Worlds Collide: Fandom and Male Privilege by Lucy Gillam (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp181.htm)
[/b]
We live in a culture of male privilege.
I mean, you all do know that, right? I'm not breaking anything to you? Cool.
Male privilege may be more obvious in other cultures, but in so-called Western culture it's still ubiquitous. In fact, it's so ubiquitous that it's invisible. It is so pervasive as to be normalized, and so normalized as to be visible only in its absence. The vast, vast, vast majority of institutions, spaces, and subcultures privilege male interests, but because male is the default in this culture, such interests are very often considered ungendered. As a result, we only really notice when something privileges female interests.
This results in, well, lots of things, but two that I want to talk about here. The first is that true gender equality is actually perceived as inequality. A group that is made up of 50% women is perceived as being mostly women. A situation that is perfectly equal between men and women is perceived as being biased in favor of women.
And if you don't believe me, you've never been a married woman who kept her family name. I have had students hold that up as proof of my "sexism." My own brother told me that he could never marry a woman who kept her name because "everyone would know who ruled that relationship." Perfect equality - my husband keeps his name and I keep mine – is held as a statement of superiority on my part.
Oh, and theres also the master suppression techniques.
Quote from: Pia on July 03, 2008, 08:05:37 PM
Guess it doesnt apply to me then. Ive always been the one oppressed by men.
That doesn't mean you didn't receive male privilege. I would posit that the price difference between the surgeries that a MTF has vs. a FTM is as a result of male privilege in medical advancements which are the direct result of how long the medical field has been a boy's club, that very rarely considered that women might need diffrent types of care for their bodies.
I would say the media coverage that focuses disproportionately upon MTF trans members is as a result of male privilege. I would say the notion that some MTF who think only about their own side of transition and not about our FTM brothers side of transition, is as a result of male privilige.
I think if at any time in this society you've been male, you've been somewhat conditioned to believe you are special and you will do great things, which is in stark contrast historically to the lives of many of our sisters who have been told from day one implicitly or explicitly that they were garbage and the best they could do is to end up with a man and kick out babies.
How ludicrous is it that we've been conditioned to think that taking a man's name in marriage and giving up your own is a testament of love. It's not a testament of love, it's a testament of the conditioning of mental slavery. I'm not your property, so why should I have your name on me? But you tell a guy that, and it's radical. That's male privilige. The expectation without even thinking about it, of pre-emenence. And it's everywhere still today. For the trans community to think it's somehow immune to that is incredibly arrogant.
Most guys it doesn't even really register to them that they make more then women in this country, and that they are routinely given precedence for leadership positions and promotions. As always compare the secretarial pool vs. the board of directors at any given company. That tells you all you need to know about how far we still have to go.
I did this to be as normal as a genetic female as possible. After my Grs, I plan to tell nobody leave all this crap behind me.
Many of the xygirls I know, believe that they haven't benefited from the male privilege, cause obviously they are not males. People will still treat people they see as males better than they would treat someone they see as female. There are several things like
If a male is never promoted, it's not because of his sex.
If a male does the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think he did a better job.
If a male has children but do not provide primary care for them, his masculinity will not be called into question.
As a child, males can choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of their own sex. They never have to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
Males do not have to worry about the message their wardrobe sends about their sexual availability
Males can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. They can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
And the list goes on: The male privilege list (http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html)
Many xywomen dont see this, and they are definitely in for a surprise when they start passing as women.
Quote from: Drik on July 04, 2008, 06:32:22 AM
Many of the xygirls I know, believe that they haven't benefited from the male privilege, cause obviously they are not males. People will still treat people they see as males better than they would treat someone they see as female. There are several things like
If a male is never promoted, it's not because of his sex.
If a male does the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think he did a better job.
If a male has children but do not provide primary care for them, his masculinity will not be called into question.
As a child, males can choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of their own sex. They never have to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
Males do not have to worry about the message their wardrobe sends about their sexual availability
Males can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. They can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
And the list goes on: The male privilege list (http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html)
Many xywomen dont see this, and they are definitely in for a surprise when they start passing as women.
I would tend to agree with you, Drik. Though my experiences have not been that extreme. Where I work there are one or two male co-workers who are definitely chauvinistic. After I went full time, I noticed that my opinions were not as well regarded as before. Also they deal with me in a very dismissive manner. At first I thought it might have been homo/trans phobia, but what I found out from other women that "Oh, that's the way *they* are. They treat all the women like that. They're just acting like spoiled little boys!" None of the activity could be documented as being truly discriminatory but their attitudes speak volumes.
What I also found interesting and slightly disturbing is the general acceptance of this attitude from other women. Even though in many cases the women were at least as good, and sometimes much better, technically, than those men, they accepted their position as second class to the males.
But I have found that there is a female privilege as well. Yesterday I was at the bookstore looking at books that women don't usually look at, the very technical computer books. I was surrounded by typical computer geek males who were trying not to notice a woman in their midst.
A man who worked at the store came up to me and asked me if he could help. Obviously I should have been in the cookbook section. I told him that I was looking for books on Tcl/Tk (a scripting language I use regularly in my job).
At first he looked a little surprised, but thankfully he did not ask me if it was for my husband or boyfriend. Anyway he started prattering on about how he would help finding the books and escorted me to the kiosk where the store search engine ran. He ran a seach for the books on Tcl/Tk, which I had to spell for him, and came up with a with several possibilities. He then escorted me back to the shelves found the books and pulled them for me for my review. There was only one that looked like it had what I was looking for, and I selected that one. He took the rest and put them back on the shelf.
He asked if there was anything else I needed. I said that I was also looking for tarot cards, and did the store carry any of those. He said yes and escorted me to another floor where the cards were kept. We ended up having a wonderful conversation about all sorts of things, including his tattoos (one of which was still fresh from just a couple of days ago), and spirituality. He was not disturbed at all that I wanted the tarot deck as a present for my partner as she was looking for a new deck.
This kind of thing has happened on a number of occasions. Men are more helpful to me if I am in a generally masculine environment like a hardware store. Mostly they are not condescending or think that I don't have a brain (though there are some...). They smile and joke more and are generally more gracious to me than when I was the other guy.
I have to admit that I enjoy that gentler treatment and sometimes play into it. The fact that I have surrendered my male privilege does not disturb me at all. What I have gained in return makes up for it.
-Sandy
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on July 04, 2008, 05:40:27 AM
Quote from: Pia on July 03, 2008, 08:05:37 PM
Guess it doesnt apply to me then. Ive always been the one oppressed by men.
That doesn't mean you didn't receive male privilege. I would posit that the price difference between the surgeries that a MTF has vs. a FTM is as a result of male privilege in medical advancements which are the direct result of how long the medical field has been a boy's club, that very rarely considered that women might need diffrent types of care for their bodies.
I would say the media coverage that focuses disproportionately upon MTF trans members is as a result of male privilege. I would say the notion that some MTF who think only about their own side of transition and not about our FTM brothers side of transition, is as a result of male privilige.
I think if at any time in this society you've been male, you've been somewhat conditioned to believe you are special and you will do great things, which is in stark contrast historically to the lives of many of our sisters who have been told from day one implicitly or explicitly that they were garbage and the best they could do is to end up with a man and kick out babies.
How ludicrous is it that we've been conditioned to think that taking a man's name in marriage and giving up your own is a testament of love. It's not a testament of love, it's a testament of the conditioning of mental slavery. I'm not your property, so why should I have your name on me? But you tell a guy that, and it's radical. That's male privilige. The expectation without even thinking about it, of pre-emenence. And it's everywhere still today. For the trans community to think it's somehow immune to that is incredibly arrogant.
Most guys it doesn't even really register to them that they make more then women in this country, and that they are routinely given precedence for leadership positions and promotions. As always compare the secretarial pool vs. the board of directors at any given company. That tells you all you need to know about how far we still have to go.
Sarah,
I have to say that I simply agree with 99% of what you wrote. I find it accurate.
However, I do disagree with the bolded part. I don't find it to be arrogant at all. Unseen? Not regarded? Regarded and dismissed as being somehow symbolic that someone is not whom they say they are? Perhaps. If so, I find the idea sorta odd. That one was born, raised and transitioned from a male body to a female one, I think that very perception gives MTFs a certain level of male-privilege whether or not we recognize it or wish to.
I think it's also really hard for many of us who have felt disregarded, dismissed and disrepected and certainly "dis-eased" in male-attire, roles, conditions want to disregard the fact that the way people "see" you gives them cues to how they interact with you regardless of one's own sense of "privilege" or the lack thereof.
In point of fact, the extension of "male privilege" to many of us growing up is what may well have caused much of the dissonance we experienced. The expectations that we would live-into our "birthright," most especially for those who rejected their "birthright" may well have caused frequent and even violent reactions to the ways we wanted and felt we should live our lives.
Overall, I have to agree with you though. Things like job-opportunity, the ability to be "heard" and respected in
some area of an MTF's life is very often tied into male-privilege. Would I have been accepted to attend the computer-programming degree program or the chemical engineering program or the medical school had I not been perceived as male? Perhaps not, perhaps so. Given the realities of "cross-gender" presentation right down to today, I would imagine that, like the former Army colonel rejected by the Smithsonian after she had "come-out," that actually getting a start in one's job with that presentation, that knowing by one's bosses and HR depts., would have been very hard to realize.
More so had the person, in say 1988, "presented as female" and adhered to the stance that she "is female" in all regards. Instead she was able to fill the "male quota" for particular areas. That she benefitted from that was in no way intentional, but happened nonetheless.
But, I can see the need and the reality that one would believe that she did in no way have a "grant-in-aid" from "male privilege." When you're being made fun of, harrassed and beaten, disrespected and dismissed it's very hard to see beyond all that to "damn! what would it be like if they saw me as the woman I am?"
It would probably be much less beaten about in various ways, but it would also have been with a certain surety of the dismissal that would be simply "taken for granted" and would be "just the way things are." A mental and socially-ingrained beat-down rather than it's more physical aspects that many of us did experience. That we tend, a lot of times, to reject that seems just kinda expectable and pretty humanly natural to me.
Nichole
P.S. And Drik's post I find absolutely illustrates what I am saying. A lot of that is, as you said, Sarah, simply unrecognized by those who experience it.
I don't find the binary proposed in this post as desireable--- at all. I'm not an out and proud activist, but I was just at SF Pride's TransMarch. I'm not stealth, but outside of my close circle no one knows I was born female. There's an inbetween here, just like in every binary, where I feel my personal place lies. My partner needs to know my business (and does), but the waiter serving me lunch does not.
Quote from: Mister on July 04, 2008, 04:22:56 PM
There's an inbetween here, just like in every binary, where I feel my personal place lies. My partner needs to know my business (and does), but the waiter serving me lunch does not.
*agrees*
I'm a musician. If i want to keep my career, which I do, I cannot erase my past and go stealth. I'm also an activist, not just trans issues, various other causes too. I've done occasional presentations in which I've outed myself as trans to complete strangers. In other instances I've written letters or testified at hearings using my birth name, and expressed my concerns without outing myself. It doesn't need to be either/or, it can be a combination. Like various people have said, one doesn't have to wear a trans sign to lobby for our causes. I want to see change in my lifetime, and the only way to achieve it is to do the work.
Zythyra
There are a lot of thought provoking replies her. I agree with most too. I suppose, it was wishful thinking on my part to think I could really go stealth. The lure of putting it all behind and living some fantasy life where no one ever knows I am trans was too much for me. I still live with a spouse that really dislikes me being out and says she is an outcast in society to be married to me. She was the force behind my desire to go stealth. I wanted to please her but I have my own life to live. I did come out to my customers in my business and she hated that. I did come out to people locally and she hated that. AS a result, she had to tell the HR people at her job and that got out to all the employees. She is treated differently now like she is the "OH poor thing" in the office. When I had lunch with the gals from Trans-Ponder.com she didn't care for that either. She flat out asked me "Are you going to be an activist?" I feel for her but I can't change and she says she wants to stay with me. So if I to become more and more active as my resources and time allow, she will have to adapt. I have bent over backwards and more to blunt the effects of my transition delaying it for over seven years.
All this has brought out the stress I live in where my actions are greeted with resistance.
Thank you all so much for your wonderful responses. It helps so much to see that I am not alone.
Maggie
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 05, 2008, 05:32:45 PM
There are a lot of thought provoking replies her. I agree with most too. I suppose, it was wishful thinking on my part to think I could really go stealth. The lure of putting it all behind and living some fantasy life where no one ever knows I am trans was too much for me. I still live with a spouse that really dislikes me being out and says she is an outcast in society to be married to me. She was the force behind my desire to go stealth. I wanted to please her but I have my own life to live. I did come out to my customers in my business and she hated that. I did come out to people locally and she hated that. AS a result, she had to tell the HR people at her job and that got out to all the employees. She is treated differently now like she is the "OH poor thing" in the office. When I had lunch with the gals from Trans-Ponder.com she didn't care for that either. She flat out asked me "Are you going to be an activist?" I feel for her but I can't change and she says she wants to stay with me. So if I to become more and more active as my resources and time allow, she will have to adapt. I have bent over backwards and more to blunt the effects of my transition delaying it for over seven years.
All this has brought out the stress I live in where my actions are greeted with resistance.
Thank you all so much for your wonderful responses. It helps so much to see that I am not alone.
Maggie
While I certainly hope this is not the case, it seems as if your partner isn't all that comfortable with your being trans. I don't know anything about your relationship other than the quoted post, so I hope I'm writing this response in error. It does sound like a familiar pattern from a former partner of mine, though.
Seems logical to me that if you're in a relationship, you accept someone's past, present and future- if she can't handle you going out to lunch with transfolk, it doesn't seem to me that she's comfortable with you not being a natal woman. The 'poor thing' mentality at the office could be quashed with one bold, flat out statement about her choice to either enter in or remain in a relationship with you.
Best of luck- I hope it all works out.
Quote from: Mister on July 05, 2008, 05:56:20 PM
The 'poor thing' mentality at the office could be quashed with one bold, flat out statement about her choice to either enter in or remain in a relationship with you.
Best of luck- I hope it all works out.
That this is true is probably exactly right, but should she have to? I don't know.
I think that a lot of times we as trans-women, particularly, take it for granted that we "should do what's best for me" in regard to transition and uphold that for other trans-women when the reality is, perhaps, just a bit different.
I'm gonna refer back to the "male privilege" that goes unseen and unrealized in this regard. I find that just one more example of the "expectation?" that someone else just needs to accept that I am going to do what I am going to do. It isn't an exclusively "male" thang to do that, women do as well.
But, I think that transwomen tend to be raised to one degree or another, like most if not all men, with expectations like that as we are generally raised with at least being given an understanding of the world that what we "want" is somehow always our right to pursue. Just a thought.
How Maggie and her spouse work-out their own arrangements about who does what with whom and who tells or doesn't tell surely isn't for any of us except Maggie and her spouse to decide. Nor have I ever gotten the impression that Maggie keeps her partner "out of the loop" of her own thinking and actions at all. So, Mags this isn't directed at either you or Mister, but at the notion that sometimes we avoid or don't have an idea about "male privilege."
Most "privilege" comes through as attitude or an unconscious presumption anyhow. One that the "privileged" one doesn't ponder until their sense of "the way things should be" is violated, that is how ingrained and subtle such things are. This seemed a very good illustration of how that might be at work in the ways we think, when we don't even realize we are thinking about it at all.
Nichole
_____________________________________
BTW:
Welcome to Susan's, Mister.
Please take some time to read The Site Rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) and on The Main Page (https://www.susans.org/index.html) you can discover Links, Chat and Wiki for your use as well. You might also want to go to the "Announcements" section and read the two posts "Post Ranks" and "Reputation Rules" to help you with some knowledge about when you can apply your own avatars, PM, and what those lil stars mean beneath all of our names and how to get them for yourself as well!! :)
It's great to have you here! :) Enjoy your stay.
Nichole
Quote from: Mister on July 05, 2008, 05:56:20 PM
if she can't handle you going out to lunch with transfolk, it doesn't seem to me that she's comfortable with you not being a natal woman.
She may also just want Maggie to get on with being a woman, and not a "transwoman." My wife has no problem when people "just happen" to find out as needed. Heck, she's told people herself when need be, and in complimentary, proud terms... not apologizing or ashamed.
But like me, she doesn't want it becoming a "lifestyle" of sorts, with me/us living within a "transsexual community" and life seeming to constantly revolve around transsexualism and it's issues. We both just want to leave the "transsexual" part behind and get on with things. It's not shame, it's just not relevant anymore... so it can be frustrating if it keeps popping up.
~Kate~
I'm not saying ANYONE should have to justify or rationalize why they're in a relationship (or not) with whoever. I'm a strong advocate of having nothing to do with anyone's relationship other than my own and no one else having their nose in mine. I wish OP all the happiness in the world, but however she navigates that is no one's business but her own, IMHO. My point was simply that OP's spouse is plenty able to advocate for herself in this situation instead of allowing the 'poor you' mentality to continue. Lack of opposition is nearly equal with permission in these sorts of situations.
One thing that I think may folks seem to miss- and my apologies for derailing the thread- is that our pre-transition partners are allowed to throw up their hands and walk away. That's entirely their right, and i've seen far too many partners stick around only to walk out and cite transition as the reason they left months- even years- later. Personally, I'd have preferred my ex be honest with both herself and me, owned up to needing to be in a relationship with someone female-identified and left. But instead, things got ugly, feelings were denied and she bawled after seeing my chest post-surgery.
Quote from: Nichole on July 05, 2008, 06:16:26 PM
I think that a lot of times we as trans-women, particularly, take it for granted that we "should do what's best for me" in regard to transition and uphold that for other trans-women when the reality is, perhaps, just a bit different.
I'm gonna refer back to the "male privilege" that goes unseen and unrealized in this regard. I find that just one more example of the "expectation?" that someone else just needs to accept that I am going to do what I am going to do. It isn't an exclusively "male" thang to do that, women do as well.
But, I think that transwomen tend to be raised to one degree or another, like most if not all men, with expectations like that as we are generally raised with at least being given an understanding of the world that what we "want" is somehow always our right to pursue. Just a thought.
As a feminist, I'm very much aware of this and it troubles me deeply. It's the fly in my feminism ointment:
It would be a bitter irony if my only way to womanhood was by exploiting male privilege.
But I know deep down through and through I'm not male-- I'm a woman who was wrongly situated in life, and correction of this wrong is long overdue. So it would be a powerful act of women's liberation to free the woman who I am.
But nevertheless the status in life I attained before coming out was seen by everyone as male, therefore male privilege applies, like it or not.
But I always hated it and never asked for it, since I always knew it did not fit me.
And around and around this goes in my mind.
The only justification I can find in this is knowing I did my best to live up to my family's expectations of who I was supposed to be for 45 years, by suppressing my own need to be who I am. When I consider the life experiences of women in general, and many women I know in particular, this fact of my life is congruent with women's experiences. Perhaps with my female brain I was actually socialized to not assert my own needs the way some assertive trans kids do. Lately, as I approach the age of 50, I've become fascinated with the Crone archetype and why women become more powerful, independent, assertive beings starting in their 40s (http://books.google.com/books?id=ez2LIAAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:Harriet+inauthor:Rubin&ei=vFtwSNz1KJ6MjAHej5n8BQ), a time when they finally emerge from under their family's needs and begin to live for themselves. This, again, I find congruent with my own experience.
I think it's much more important that people know you as a good person, a valued member of society, somebody who enriches the lives of those around her. Too many cisgendered people have stereotypical views of us, and I think that's as much true of the prostitute/Jerry Springer stereotype as the activist "You WILL accept me" stereotype. We need to humanise ourselves to people, and the way we do that is by living our lives without apology OR by blaring it from the rooftops. I've said to my folks often enough that I don't mind outing myself to individuals, because I have the opportunity to engage them, to chat to them, to humanise myself to them. It's the strangers who just pass me and read my that are dangerous, because I never have that chance to make myself more to them than a "pervert ->-bleeped-<-". Hate is not a natural state for human beings - we have to dehumanise the individuals or groups we hate, make them less human. The key is to counteract that.
~Simone.
Yeah you guys have it a lot easier at the outset when gendering is based on secondary sexual characteristics. I was rather shocked and elated to discover that my bottom surgery was authentic enough to convince even experienced butch women.
For me, male privilege doesn't come into my transition. I didn't look at it as a right or that I would do it come hell or high water no matter what the cost. I was so much wrapped up in pleasing my wife in every way possible that when I realized I was possibly trans, I fought it tooth and nail. It was going to be a disaster for her and I knew it. After years of fighting to the point of suicide, I decided that I could damage her more by killing myself so I accepted that I was trans. She however, accepts only to a point. She understands I can't help it and she understands that she never married a man. She now realizes that my being Mr. Mom all those years was the best for me instead of the corporate dog fight. This still doesn't make it much easier because she has lost her social status. She is now looked down on or pitied by her coworkers because she is staying with me. I have offered to leave many many times and she has always said that she wants to stay together. Not as man and wife or as lesbian partners but as sisters or some semblance of close live-in friends. She is however, still very much involved in my transition and in some ways in control as she controls the money in our household. We only spend on what she agrees to. I am working with my therapist to find a way for me to stand up to her without destroying the fragile peace we have. One thing is true, my little income from my business is essential in our financial survival even if I can't make it on my own. SO we have that as a bond. It makes very hard for me to participate in trans activities as I know she doesn't like them.
Maggie
Quote from: redfish the artiste on July 06, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
I kind of wish that analyses of privilege were more individualized. It often seems like it's painted as, "You were a member of group x, and therefore you have been a receiver of privilege x." I think there's a lot more complexity than that, though - for example, someone perceived as a feminine male is probably going to have different privileges than someone perceived as a masculine male. Additionally, privilege is not the only thing that acts in people's lives - if someone has the mindset that they should do what they want, for example, that could have resulted from many factors in addition to or independent from any contributions made by privilege.
I think privilege lists and acknowledging one's privileges is a great thing, but sometimes it seems like the concept of privileges is applied in ways that are too generalized, other times in ways that do not account for other factors, and I see it often used (at least in terms of trans people) to delegitimize identities.
This is probably another post I'll regret making and I'm not sure if I even conveyed what I mean correctly, but yeah.
Maybe I'm just a terrible feminist :icon_hover-alien:
While I agree with you, I have to stick to my feminist roots and mention that a feminine man is still a recipient of a great deal male privilege, something that even the most masculine woman is not.
Quote from: redfish the artiste on July 06, 2008, 12:18:16 PM
I kind of wish that analyses of privilege were more individualized. It often seems like it's painted as, "You were a member of group x, and therefore you have been a receiver of privilege x." I think there's a lot more complexity than that, though - for example, someone perceived as a feminine male is probably going to have different privileges than someone perceived as a masculine male. Additionally, privilege is not the only thing that acts in people's lives - if someone has the mindset that they should do what they want, for example, that could have resulted from many factors in addition to or independent from any contributions made by privilege.
Yup, and when one is talking about privileges and feminism, one should also talk about intersectionality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality)
Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2008, 12:36:59 AM
Quote from: Nichole on July 05, 2008, 06:16:26 PM
I think that a lot of times we as trans-women, particularly, take it for granted that we "should do what's best for me" in regard to transition and uphold that for other trans-women when the reality is, perhaps, just a bit different.
I'm gonna refer back to the "male privilege" that goes unseen and unrealized in this regard. I find that just one more example of the "expectation?" that someone else just needs to accept that I am going to do what I am going to do. It isn't an exclusively "male" thang to do that, women do as well.
But, I think that transwomen tend to be raised to one degree or another, like most if not all men, with expectations like that as we are generally raised with at least being given an understanding of the world that what we "want" is somehow always our right to pursue. Just a thought.
As a feminist, I'm very much aware of this and it troubles me deeply. It's the fly in my feminism ointment:
It would be a bitter irony if my only way to womanhood was by exploiting male privilege.
But I know deep down through and through I'm not male-- I'm a woman who was wrongly situated in life, and correction of this wrong is long overdue. So it would be a powerful act of women's liberation to free the woman who I am.
But nevertheless the status in life I attained before coming out was seen by everyone as male, therefore male privilege applies, like it or not.
But I always hated it and never asked for it, since I always knew it did not fit me.
And around and around this goes in my mind.
The only justification I can find in this is knowing I did my best to live up to my family's expectations of who I was supposed to be for 45 years, by suppressing my own need to be who I am. When I consider the life experiences of women in general, and many women I know in particular, this fact of my life is congruent with women's experiences. Perhaps with my female brain I was actually socialized to not assert my own needs the way some assertive trans kids do. Lately, as I approach the age of 50, I've become fascinated with the Crone archetype and why women become more powerful, independent, assertive beings starting in their 40s (http://books.google.com/books?id=ez2LIAAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:Harriet+inauthor:Rubin&ei=vFtwSNz1KJ6MjAHej5n8BQ), a time when they finally emerge from under their family's needs and begin to live for themselves. This, again, I find congruent with my own experience.
Hello, sister-philosopher
par excellence. ;) :icon_hug:
The analogy was absolutely spot-on ASAIC. Privilege is an inherently conditioned aspect of anyone's life. It can be mitigated, turned over, eradicated, or, as I think you suggest, be worked to fit who and what one is. But, in order to be reworked I think one first has to recognize and embrace the fact that it exists and that we have been granted it.
The grant was not welcomed, perhaps not even used in a conscious way, but the admission that it exists and has been granted to one must be admitted and dealt with before it can be reworked. That's the flaw I find in those who deny that they ever experienced it. If they don't admit its existence, and flee and fight every reference, every aspect, of that "gifting," then how can they possibly rework it?
To deny we ever had it because it was uncomfortable seems to me akin to a black man denying that his blackness has defined his life in our society. He would continuously go along denying and getting upset when others referred to his blackness. He would deny he was black, which, on the face of it would appear an absurdity to those who saw him.
You could fill-in Jewishness or fundamentalist Christian or psychologist or any other conditioned aspect of our lives. The question is not "did I have this," I did. It leaves its traces, perhaps most especially in those who deny they ever experienced it. To admit and find where it commands or influences one life is the only way out of it, I think. To ignore and deny it is to maintain those vestiges, perhaps even to exemplify them in the denial. Or, so it seems to me.
Your way, it also seems to me, is an answer to the criticism of my inherent "male privilege." What a well-wrought and excellent post. Thank you, as always. :)
I believe we crones have things from experience we can add, valuably, to this conversation. :icon_hug:
:icon_clap: :icon_hug:
Nichole
And, brother-Drik, you once more add unerringly a huge value to the conversation. Thanks so much.
QuoteIntersectionality is a theory which seeks to examine the ways in which various socially and culturally constructed categories interact on multiple levels to manifest themselves as inequality in society. Intersectionality holds that the classical models of oppression within society, such as those based on race/ethnicity, gender, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, class, or disability do not act independently of one another; instead, these forms of oppression interrelate creating a system of oppression that reflects the "intersection" of multiple forms of discrimination.
*Edited to correct some punctuation*
Quote from: redfish the artiste on July 06, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
I kind of wish that analyses of privilege were more individualized.
I agree with you. It's why intersectional analysis appeals to me a lot more than other waves of feminist theory.
Ah, and while I was typing I see Nichole beat me to a much better post on it.
Nichole, I was very glad you discussed the issue of male privilege here, because it's our biggest liability in establishing our womanly credentials. It inevitably needs careful work by us. It isn't easy, especially when added on top of all the other difficulties our tribe has to struggle with. But I think it's imperative for each of us to honestly face up to dealing with it and work toward some resolution of it.
I've decided to risk some negative reputation here !
..I must be missing something, but I'm just finding all this female activist talk very Macho.
I realise things must different in the USA from a law and culture point of view, but in in the UK I am having difficulty in
seeing anything I want to fight to change. OK, there are still some significant disparities but we've already had a female
Prime Minister, and many of our laws are now set up to protect the female in society, employment, and health.
I want to transition to adopt my inner gender, to fit into a role I feel is my nature, and not to set about changing it get parity
with my birth sex.
I have a family, and I would give my life for my childern and their future hapiness. My female soul will contine to watch me rip myself apart
until it feels there is a chance of acceptance in transition. The day is nearing, as my children are growing older and we are beginning to
discuss love and gender issues together.
It the last 20 years I have grown to realise that it's the same female side preventing me transitioning, that is generating the basic need.
This is simply because I care so much for those around at such a deeply emotional level, I will always put their needs above my own until
such a time as I feel I can limit the damage I will cause.
I came to this site because so much of what you all discuss is to further the cause of the transgendered, which to me is a much more
beautiful and noble cause than feminism.
I have already made it to the front pages of the nationals before on a different subject, and have paid the price.
My basic plan is therefore one of stealth with what is left of my life.
Chrissty
Quote from: Chrissty on July 06, 2008, 03:14:59 PMI came to this site because so much of what you all discuss is to further the cause of the transgendered, which to me is a much more
beautiful and noble cause than feminism.
My feminism is rooted in an ideal of equality. Not to make us all the same, but to disable the social system which defines us all against our wills, to allow for individuality and self definition, instead of conformity or death.
What that means for me is that the issues of the LGBTQI's are a part of feminism, the issues of women of color are a part of feminism, the issues of the disabled, the poor, the young, the old, the fat, the skinny...all of the various ways in which women are forced into boxes and denied an equal shot at making our way in the world. Simply striving for middle class white women to gain an equal foothold in this ->-bleeped-<-ed up system....? No.
That's not to say anything about the choice that sparked this thread. I think people have every right to simply live stealth. Not everyone is built for activism, and that's fine.
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:15:31 PM
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Not quite sure about your numbers. 125 female MPs sounds about right, but thats out of about 650 total, nowhere near half and percentagewise is similar to congress.
Quote from: jenny_ on July 06, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:15:31 PM
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Not quite sure about your numbers. 125 female MPs sounds about right, but thats out of about 650 total, nowhere near half and percentagewise is similar to congress.
Out 169 of 349 MPs are women here in Sweden.
Thats 48.2%. We win. ;)
Quote from: Chrissty on July 06, 2008, 03:14:59 PM
..I must be missing something, but I'm just finding all this female activist talk very Macho.
I realise things must different in the USA from a law and culture point of view, but in in the UK I am having difficulty in
seeing anything I want to fight to change. OK, there are still some significant disparities but we've already had a female
Prime Minister, and many of our laws are now set up to protect the female in society, employment, and health.
...
I came to this site because so much of what you all discuss is to further the cause of the transgendered, which to me is a much more
beautiful and noble cause than feminism.
We have the laws to protect almost all minorities now but thats not the same as gaining equality. In fact the law protecting transsexuals is almost a word for word copy of the law protecting women from discrimination. So i don't see how you can be satisfied with one of them but not the other.
You might be right in our situation being better than some other countries, but UK women have not gained equality by a long stretch imo. Why else would Harriet Harman be pushing through another Equality Bill if it wasn't needed?
For me the most beautiful and noble cause is for every human being on this planet to be treated fairly and for everybody to have an equal opportunity in everything they do and for every person to feel empowered to achieve their dreams, regardless of their sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, country, age, or colour of hair. And that cause is worth fighting for until its achieved by all.
jenny
Posted on: July 07, 2008, 12:54:29 AM
Quote from: Drik on July 06, 2008, 06:37:29 PM
Out 169 of 349 MPs are women here in Sweden.
Thats 48.2%. We win. ;)
30 out of 60 in the welsh parliament, thats 50% so there :P
Quote from: jenny_ on July 06, 2008, 07:02:05 PM
30 out of 60 in the welsh parliament, thats 50% so there :P
Darn :P
Quote from: Chrissty on July 06, 2008, 03:14:59 PM
I've decided to risk some negative reputation here !
A decidedly poor way to begin a post. :laugh: Is it a dare? A wish? A ploy to attempt to get someone to give negative rep so you can say "I knew it?"
Beginning by asking for a negative result is to tempt it. English Writing 101: "don't ask people to tear you apart." Never a good idea for anyone. :) In fact, akin, imo, to walking into a pub and calling out for a fight to any bloke there who's willing. Something that, in light of the next sentence, is terribly ironic. :)
Quote..I must be missing something, but I'm just finding all this female activist talk very Macho.
I take it you don't take to "female activists?" ??? Any particular reasons why? To have "female activist talk" for me is to have human talk. A talk that from the perspective of "intersectionality" or the way I found my therapy-work, relational-cultural theory (http://rctportland.wordpress.com/what-is-relational-cultural-theory/): an understanding that many people play both dominant and subordinate roles in many aspects of their lives, embarces all human beings, not simply women. The black man, the white woman, the transsexual of either sex or any ethnic group are all intersected by different forms of conditioning.
To focus on only on the aspect of my life that is/was transsexual is to ignore a vast array of areas that also affect my life: woman, mother, partner-lover, student, worker, thinker, speaker, friend, father, aquaintance, moderator, sister, ex, stranger, caucasian American, southern American, ex-military, ex-chef, ex-fundamentalist Christian, pagan, Mother's daughter, former male-gendered, etc. To hold myself out as only transsexual, as you may see, severely limits the range of my own being. It denies parts of me that I would lose to my own crippling if I were to ignore or deny them, see any as less than any other.
QuoteI realise things must different in the USA from a law and culture point of view, but in in the UK I am having difficulty in
seeing anything I want to fight to change. OK, there are still some significant disparities but we've already had a female
Prime Minister, and many of our laws are now set up to protect the female in society, employment, and health.
Perhaps, but it seems to me that Brits are composites of many different individual aspects as well.
QuoteI want to transition to adopt my inner gender, to fit into a role I feel is my nature, and not to set about changing it get parity
with my birth sex.
I have a family, and I would give my life for my childern and their future hapiness. My female soul will contine to watch me rip myself apart
until it feels there is a chance of acceptance in transition. The day is nearing, as my children are growing older and we are beginning to
discuss love and gender issues together.
It the last 20 years I have grown to realise that it's the same female side preventing me transitioning, that is generating the basic need.
This is simply because I care so much for those around at such a deeply emotional level, I will always put their needs above my own until
such a time as I feel I can limit the damage I will cause.
I came to this site because so much of what you all discuss is to further the cause of the transgendered, which to me is a much more
beautiful and noble cause than feminism.
I have already made it to the front pages of the nationals before on a different subject, and have paid the price.
My basic plan is therefore one of stealth with what is left of my life.
Chrissty
And is there any of that life, those decisions, that you feel less about or would change?
Perhaps that's why you barged into a discussion and felt you could toss a couple of things out that very much could be read as insulting and could very well have caused a brouhaha: because you knew that sisters wouldn't bash another sister regardless of what she said about us? Because, finally, I think women, androgynes, and men, do get your frustration, do get that you find the things we have been talking about here not important to you. And for those very good reasons, I just don't think you are likely to see a smite, Chrissty. Your opinion is yours. I honor that and the path that led you to that opinion.
Why would any of us bash a sister when she spoke her own mind, from her own perspective, even if the "Macho" barb she tried to cast was possibly meant to hurt and possibly to try to "guilt" someone into stopping their conversation?
How does any of us lower the rep of someone who has struggled and only wants to rest, to be herself? I think you will find that every woman, man and androgyne who has posted on this thread only wants that: the opportunity to be themselves. That is the goal of feminism: not a false and enforced equality, but a clear and honoring understanding of and respect for difference in groups, individuals, the entire universe. One is not better than another, but neither is one the same as any other.
The goal, my dear, is the liberation of us all, and the ability for us each to see that to honor the other's journey is to honor my own journey.
It's not about %of MPs or % of legislators, % of w, x, y & z in a work-force, or at the club. It's about recognizing our common humanity and understanding that what moves one isn't better than what moves another in most cases, it's simply different in some cases. We can all live healthily and peacefully with that.
Mother's Peace go with you, luv, :icon_bunch: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Nichole
Quote from: jenny_ on July 06, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:15:31 PM
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Not quite sure about your numbers. 125 female MPs sounds about right, but thats out of about 650 total, nowhere near half and percentagewise is similar to congress.
Oops!
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: jenny_ on July 06, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:15:31 PM
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Not quite sure about your numbers. 125 female MPs sounds about right, but thats out of about 650 total, nowhere near half and percentagewise is similar to congress.
Oops!
:laugh: :laugh: Perhaps you should have "googled," Claire? >:D
Firstly an apology, I'm afraid this topic ended up hitting a raw nerve with me, and I posted in haste, which I accept is a bad thing in this type of discussion.
I specifically apologise to those of you who may feel personally offended by what I posted, I realise with hindsight that my approach was inapropriate.
Thank you ALL for taking the time to respond thoughtfully, and particularly thank you to Nichole for your kind advice..Level headed as ever..
SORRY :icon_bunch: :icon_bunch: :icon_bunch:
I was going to follow my apology with an explanation of why?... but the reasons are complicated and this is not a good time, or place to explore them.
Suffice to say that I get emotionally charged and passionate about so much of what I do, it is extremely difficult to not let this show at times..
...I also have a terrible tendency to not do things the easy way....
:icon_hug:
Chrissty
Quote from: Nichole on July 06, 2008, 11:17:11 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: jenny_ on July 06, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 06, 2008, 06:15:31 PM
I think the UK may be much farther ahead of the USA in women's rights. Nearly half your MPs are female, 125 out of 261. The US Congress has 88 females out of 535 seats, about 16%. I don't think I'd be bragging about Maggie Thatcher though.
Not quite sure about your numbers. 125 female MPs sounds about right, but thats out of about 650 total, nowhere near half and percentagewise is similar to congress.
Oops!
:laugh: :laugh: Perhaps you should have "googled," Claire? >:D
I did! But all I got was a bunch of hits for Claire Danes and Claire Booth Luce! :o :o
Christty,
We all have things that grab us and shake us. Those things we are likely simply to react to and not weigh consequences and ramifications for. No harm nor bad feelings in your case. Such things call for consideration and attempts at understanding.
You have those, at least from me. More problematic are the attempts by unregistered comediennes to use their wit to practice for their next gig at Joe's Bar!! :laugh: :laugh: >:D
You may want to make a totally new thread about what bothers you about "female activists" and how that plays out in your life on another thread. I've been told that there's room for new threads when I click the "New Topic" toggle on the upper right. *smile*
Claire, I even understand that that will work in "Humor" as well!! >:D
Nichole
Can somebody let me know where Joe's Bar is...
...and how do I sign up for the "Open Mike" night...
...shhh!.... don't let Nichole know... ::)
Chrissty
Quote from: Chrissty on July 07, 2008, 11:16:49 AM
Can somebody let me know where Joe's Bar is...
...and how do I sign up for the "Open Mike" night...
...shhh!.... don't let Nichole know... ::)
Chrissty
It's seemed an innocuous name to me, I figured there might well be one in SF where Claire is living and I know that in the 70s and 80s there there was a "Joe's Bierhaus" in Charlottenburg, Berlin, German Republic on the Kaiserdamm where Masurenallee, Heerstrasse and Reichsstrasse intersected. *smile* I saw Steppenwolf there in 1981!! *smile*
There was also a Joe's Bar and Grill in Green Hills, Nashville, TN on Hillsboro Pike during the 90s, been 10 years since I've been in Nashville in Green Hills. I saw John Prine there once. And the great thing was later I walked across Hillsboro Road and saw Mary Chapin Carpenter at the Bluebird Cafe on the same night!! :)
So, Joe's Bars do exist in a number of places!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I'd love to see your performance Christty, if I can get there!! ;D
Love,
Nichole
I was going to post this and then I wasn't and now I am again because I think it's still relevant to the OP.
I live in Britain too and most public protests, regardless of the reason have been at least 50% female. Yes we've had a female prime minister and yes we have tough laws regarding gender equality but that's because there are a lot of tough British women willing to fight to get there. I'm not comparing us to any other country here, I speak only of the culture I've lived in and observed personally.
I've had a lot of strong female role models in my life and I hope one day I can grow up to be just as strong a woman as they are, whether as a stalwart for women's rights or for trans rights or anyone's rights.
I believe in living your life honestly as an example for others and you could argue that makes me an activist.
Edit: That should say most public protests I've seen.
Quote from: Nichole on July 07, 2008, 12:09:37 PM
Quote from: Chrissty on July 07, 2008, 11:16:49 AM
Can somebody let me know where Joe's Bar is...
...and how do I sign up for the "Open Mike" night...
...shhh!.... don't let Nichole know... ::)
Chrissty
It's seemed an innocuous name to me, I figured there might well be one in SF where Claire is living and I know that in the 70s and 80s there there was a "Joe's Bierhaus" in Charlottenburg, Berlin, German Republic on the Kaiserdamm where Masurenallee, Heerstrasse and Reichsstrasse intersected. *smile* I saw Steppenwolf there in 1981!! *smile*
There was also a Joe's Bar and Grill in Green Hills, Nashville, TN on Hillsboro Pike during the 90s, been 10 years since I've been in Nashville in Green Hills. I saw John Prine there once. And the great thing was later I walked across Hillsboro Road and saw Mary Chapin Carpenter at the Bluebird Cafe on the same night!! :)
So, Joe's Bars do exist in a number of places!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I'd love to see your performance Christty, if I can get there!! ;D
Love,
Nichole
Oh, the bluebird cafe... *sighs in memory*
Going back a page or so to male privilege. I don't believe we (trans women, male born androgynes, etc) can look at male privilege in a vacuum, there are varying degrees of it, plus many intersections with other isms such as race, ethnic background, class, religion, gender, etc.
For example, I was born w/ male body in a white middle class family. So, no question that I have male privilege, even though I started to reject it as soon as I understood what it meant. But I am also queer, and perceived as such by other kids from an early age. I was often persecuted for being queer or sissy throughout childhood. So, even though born white male, some (not all) of my privilege was measured against being simultaneously queer. I am also Jewish, and have experienced anti-Semitism. So my white male privilege was countered by this too, and thus my life has been very different from that of an upper class white heterosexual Christian male.
One interesting thing about my experience is the concept of passing, which was part of my awareness long before I realized I was trans. At first glance, I can be perceived as white male. I might not be known to be queer or Jewish unless I out myself. Which I've sometimes had to do, for example when in a situation of hearing a homophobic or anti-Semitic comment. My experience as both white male and other was good training in many ways for when I came to realize myself as being gender variant. And because of this, I make a conscious effort to reject privilege. But, I also have to accept that I carry this unwanted baggage with me whether I choose to use it or not.
Zythyra