For your consideration.
Mary - Was born male and given the name of Michael. As far back as she can remember Mary believed she was female. Her parents of course discouraged this belief and Mary tried to fit in with the other boys. At adolescence Mary longed for the body changes she saw in her cisgendered female friends. Mary found she was attracted to men and considered the possibility that she was gay. Once she heard about transsexual people, she knew right away that was what she was. Mary went into therapy and soon after started HRT. Her family was supportive of her decision and after 2 years RLE she was approved for GRS. She was soon on her way to Montreal.
Dorothy - Was born male and given the name of Donald. By the time he reached puberty he knew he was different than his friends. He thought he may be gay but worked to become a "normal" heterosexual male. To that end he became über male and played sports and was promiscuous with women. He took up cross-dressing in private. After a week at a cross-dresser hotel Donald decided that Dorothy was the person she was meant to be. She got on HRT, self-medicating at first. She then decided to complete transition and was soon off to Thailand.
I don't think there it makes any difference how one finds their path. I see no reason that deciding to transition makes makes Dorothy any less a woman than Mary. What do you think? Why?
Everyone has a different life and process to figuring out who they are. I'm not a professional, just another gender variant person dealing with being who I am. To me, what matters is that each person is being honest with themselves so that can make the right choices for their situation. I could care less whether they are considered primary or secondary TS.
Z
As long as someone is happy, I believe they are living their lives right (you know, as long as no one is getting harmed). :]
But, I can relate to both of them, in different ways.
xoxo
Ali
Excuse me, but what is Cisgendered? ???
Csigendered is a genetic female :]
xoxo
Ali
oh :embarrassed:
lol
THANKSS alot!
Mary is obviously so much more woman than Dorothy cause everyone knows all real women are straight.
lol
if one believes herself a woman, she is. however she arrives at that belief is irrelevant. some hbs women transition as soon as they realize they are, some plan and co-ordiante their transiton and some never get to transition at all. they are all women. i would though, offer up a semantical, although important, point in the language of your presentation of these cases. rather then saying these women were born male i would say they were women born with male biology. <harry benjamin syndrome>
it has not been my experience that people become transsexual. i don't think you can catch it, or grow into it or transform yourself into it, i believe it's just the way we were born. it certainly can take us some time to realize it, to sort it out and come to terms with it, but if it's truly harry benjamin syndrome it's been there since birth. just my opinion.
Each of us travels the same path thru the forest, but the path changes for each of us as our life changes. Each will arrive at the same point eventually. None of us is more of a woman, or man ( for our FtM Brothers ) than anyone else. We are just another woman.
Janet
It reminds me of the old joke about a lawyer grilling the defendent with, "so... have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
By answering the question in ANY way, you validate the (questionable) assumption ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 07:07:39 AM
if one believes herself a woman, she is. however she arrives at that belief is irrelevant. i would though, offer up a semantical, although important, point in the language of your presentation of these cases. rather then saying these women were born male i would say they were women born with male biology. <harry benjamin syndrome>
it has not been my experience that people become transsexual. i don't think you can catch it, or grow into it or transform yourself into it, i believe it's just the way we were born. it certainly can take us some time to realize it, to sort it out and come to terms with it, but if it's truly harry benjamin syndrome it's been there since birth. just my opinion.
I don't believe in Harry Benhamine Syndrome. You'll note that it seems to be a condition of white MtFs in higher socio-economic groups. Rarely do you here a person of color make such a claim. I can't think of any transmen that claim it either. The key word in my description of Dorothy's transition is
decided. She excercised free will.
Posted on: 11 July 2008, 07:22:02
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 09:01:31 AM
It reminds me of the old joke about a lawyer grilling the defendent with, "so... have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
By answering the question in ANY way, you validate the (questionable) assumption ;)
~Kate~
What assumption is that?
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
What assumption is that?
That someone CAN be
"more of a woman" than the other.
~Kate~
As one who took the more tortuous path, I'd say there's no difference either. I know that on some level I always knew; the evidence starts at age 4, and was most obvious through puberty and anorexia nervosa. My family being religious and my initial choice of college (religious) also put being trans the furthest thought from my mind.
There was still evidence throughout adulthood but it was dismissed as weird fantasies (those of me wanting to be a male, and me missing my male anatomy during intimacy, etc).
I also had married, had kids, owned a business, and the stress of all that didn't leave me time to think about things much. Feelings started surfaceing a few years before my divorce, when I started writing novels from a man's POV and nailed it according to male writing instructors who found it unusual for a woman to do that. I used to joke that I must have been male in a previous life, not really guessing I was trans.
After my divorce I tried dating men again very unsuccessfully and gave up. That's when I started searching for answers, but not knowing what the questions were. It finally all clicked back in March '08 and here I am over 3 full months into transition. There was no doubt at all that I was transsexual; just the usual OMG! What!?
Does that make me any less than other girls & guys who, even growing up in the 70s, transitioned decades ago when it was far less socially acceptable and totally freakish? I don't think so. I applaud them for seeking answers sooner in an era where there was no internet and blazing the trail for the rest of us to follow.
Jay
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
What assumption is that?
That someone CAN be "more of a woman" than the other.
~Kate~
I had lunch with a therapist (MFT) friend of mine. A large part of her practice is treating transgender people. In her many years of doing so she observed little or no psycho-pathology associated with transgender clients. The dysphoria we experience is externally generated. Societies lack of acceptance our problem is the root of the depression (a separate issue) that many of us suffer. She asked me the question "what difference does it make if someone knows from early on they are TG or if they DECIDE later in life that this is the path they choose to walk? What is wrong with someone doing that?" My answer is nothing is wrong with it.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
The key word in my description of Dorothy's transition is decided. She excercised free will.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that one, Clair. At least for me, in my own personal experience, I didn't decide to become transsexual. I had feelings all through my life, from the earliest ages, that while I was envious of those things female, I felt that I was a ->-bleeped-<- and not a transsexual.
After all, girls like boys, which I certainly did not. And all the transsexuals I had heard about from the sixties through to the time of the INTERNET, lost everything and became sex workers and drug addicts.
When I finally came out to myself, my life finally made sense. All the feelings I had were because I really *was* female. I didn't *decide* to become transsexual because it was the next step after being a lifelong cross-dresser.
If there was an exercise of free will, for me, it was that I stopped lying to myself. Not that I decided to become transsexual.
And from everything I've heard from other transsexuals, they too have always had those feminine feelings. And how they came to accept those feelings determined the path that they walked. That was the free will part.
Claire, apologize if I have misinterpreted the meaning of your post and responses. If I have, please clarify.
-Sandy
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:47:42 AM
Societies lack of acceptance our problem is the root of the depression (a separate issue) that many of us suffer. She asked me the question "what difference does it make if someone knows from early on they are TG or if they DECIDE later in life that this is the path they choose to walk? What is wrong with someone doing that?" My answer is nothing is wrong with it.
Oh I agree. What I'm constantly trying to tell people is that changing your sex is just not a big deal. The only reason there exists all this GID theory and scientific research and brain dissections and psychotherapy and web sites and all is because people think it IS a big, shameful deal.
But seriously, is it ANY different than changing your hair color?
The only thing I'd argue with is that it's not (just) *society* that doesn't accept us, it's US. 99% of the posts on this forum are people looking for justification, some way to "make this OK" with themselves.
Which is why I say that transitioning really isn't about the hormones and name changes and all, it's about getting over that internalized shame... a shame and guilt which drives us to all these ridiculous extremes to justify and explain all this. People get lost in the attempt to explain it to themselves, and never think to step back and ask WHY they're doing it.
~Kate~
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:47:42 AM
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
What assumption is that?
That someone CAN be "more of a woman" than the other.
~Kate~
I had lunch with a therapist (MFT) friend of mine. A large part of her practice is treating transgender people. In her many years of doing so she observed little or no psycho-pathology associated with transgender clients. The dysphoria we experience is externally generated. Societies lack of acceptance our problem is the root of the depression (a separate issue) that many of us suffer. She asked me the question "what difference does it make if someone knows from early on they are TG or if they DECIDE later in life that this is the path they choose to walk? What is wrong with someone doing that?" My answer is nothing is wrong with it.
There is nothing wrong with that. And what your therapist has seen is what I see. Plenty of personality and mood disorders develop from transsexual life: constant belittling, hiding away, internalized guilt, sexual, physical abuse etc. But the GID isn't the problem, the treatment is.
And to have that, as Kassandra suggests, from a young age is to exacerbate the problems. People don't commit suicide due to GID, or HBS for the economically-gifted; they want to commit suicide due to other things. An overwhelming loss of consonance with one's own life and the events that make-up that life are the basic kernel of "transition or die" seems to me.
I mean I've known women and men who suicide after transition, not because they couldn't, because they were alone and cut-off. That doesn't come from GID.
Just my own thoughts. And that dissonance with those that make the "community" everyone needs to survive is the killer and why therapy for the deep core problems is important. The "therapy" for transition is a matter of getting approvals. The real work is something else entirely, and I think we as a individuals lose track of that in a very large way.
Nichole
O, btw, good morning everyone!! :)
Interesting term DECIDE as it certainly says choice. However, is it really Dorothy's choice to become female or is it a matter of her own path to self discovery that she IS female. Deciding at this point seems then to either transition or consciously repress an intrinsic part of her character, her gender. I think that denial under these conditions is highly unstable.
My experience as a late onset TS has been that I really did not know or consider that I was female most of my life. As a child, I was despondent that I was a male and woke up sobbing uncontrollably when I had my first wet dream. I did not consider that it was possible I could be female and as such was constantly in conflict with males. I never fit in, never understood them, never liked them. I became a loner and dedicated to a 24/7 contact with the female girlfriend/spouse that I was with at the time. However, the expectation by all of them was that I was male and I just couldn't fill the bill. I still didn't figure it out even when I started wearing women's underwear. I could not understand why but I escalated this to clothes and self medicated hormones. I lied to myself, big time. It was the fabric or the better fit of the clothes. I said needed a bra because I had some gynecomastia and needed some support. I said I took hormones to combat a swollen prostate. This was actually true but estrogens are not the normal treatment. I went to graduate school in medical biochemistry so I had some idea what the meds were to do. Not having insurance forced me to self medicate. After a few years, I began to suspect but could not bring myself to seek professional help. In fact, my wife finally told me "You are transgendered" and I said, "What is that?" so I did some fast research. At first, I still denied I was trans but the inner female in me continued to emerge. It then snowballed from there to me fully accepting and now I am in transition.
Now reading this , you might say I am stupid or touched in the head. I assure you that I am of above average intelligence and completely sane. I was trying to be a "good boy" far too long in a lost cause. I wonder if there are any others who needed to discover their true gender, like me?
Maggie
Decided? Ok I missed that in the first reading. What exactly do you mean by that?
I mean I suppose we all decide whether or not to do something about it.
Happens all the time, Maggie. Your story isn't unusual at all. I imagine it mirrors that of most older transitioners.
The worst thing that happened for most older TSes imo is the Blanchard thesis, or rather the reactions to it. The sense, taken within, that someone doesn't want to simply have a fetish: that's as dismissive as all the other dismissals that the person has had to try to cope with throughout their lifetime.
Imo, another good reason for the people who continue to make ->-bleeped-<- a cause celebre to just let it go. I honestly believe that our reactions to it have been more harmful to TSes and TGes than the theory itself. I mean these guys were all alone and discounted until the rancor began. Now they are seen as "experts," when before they were men working at a hospital noted for is trans-misogny. Should have left it that way, imo.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 10:47:49 AM
Happens all the time, Maggie. Your story isn't unusual at all. I imagine it mirrors that of most older transitioners.
The worst thing that happened for most older TSes imo is the Blanchard thesis, or rather the reactions to it. The sense, taken within, that someone doesn't want to simply have a fetish: that's as dismissive as all the other dismissals that the person has had to try to cope with throughout their lifetime.
Imo, another good reason for the people who continue to make ->-bleeped-<- a cause celebre to just let it go. I honestly believe that our reactions to it have been more harmful to TSes and TGes than the theory itself. I mean these guys were all alone and discounted until the rancor began. Now they are seen as "experts," when before they were men working at a hospital noted for is trans-misogny. Should have left it that way, imo.
Nichole
Nichole,
Coming from you, this is very comforting, Thank you.
As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis". Those in the leadership of that promulgate this non scientific nonsense bring down the reputation of their whole field.
Maggie
Quote from: le_joli_papillon on July 11, 2008, 02:52:55 AM
Excuse me, but what is Cisgendered? ???
Cisgendered is someone who identifies as their birth gender, someone who is not transgendered.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:59:52 AM
Nichole,
Coming from you, this is very comforting, Thank you.
As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis". Those in the leadership of that promulgate this non scientific nonsense bring down the reputation of their whole field.
Maggie
Thanks, Mags, but that seems excessive!! :)
The thingy that needs some understanding by us, imo, is that psychiatry's and clinical psych's ideas about science are often relegated to medication. The "theorists" are basically same as Freud: they mix & match their prejudices and the way they "see" clients into a strictly "thought-experiment" kinda game and publish the results of their "thought."
Kurt Freund invented the "plesy-mythograph" to track blood flow through a penis. The extrapolation being that one can then "measure" the amount of "turn-on" occurring in the subject. There is no "control" available because the idea that the instrument definitely measures what it's supposed to measure "attraction, etc" is not subject to being known. There are other theories and measures of sexual response that maybe would lend themselves to a better interpretation. Of course at Clarke, you cannot get treated and NOT have an electrode attached to you.
But the measurement is just commanded to measure what it's supposed to.
Most psychiatrists will accept that measuement because they measure the same way: other things, but that is the rule. Many are at least neo-Freudians who find that sex is always the core. And many still use discredited "tests" like Rohrschach to do those measurements and come to conclusions about their clients. No different than Blanchard, for instance.
The other APA is much better in their analyses, but, unfortunately they don't write the book, the shrinks do. It'll be almost impossible to break that down on the outside, afterall, it's just a bunch of homosexuals or fetishists doing the protest. That work will be actually best accomplished by shrinks who either are trans or who've worked with trans people enough to have different ideas.
Nichole
well, i guess anyone who believes they "decide" to become transsexual might not believe in hbs. that far more closely describes what blanchard and lawrence diagnose as ->-bleeped-<-. i would absolutely call that a psychological pathology. hbs, and...well...i'm certainly not economically gifted, is a congenital intersex condition...100% physiological.
diagnosing these differences is very difficult, i would almost say it takes one to know one at this stage of scientific discovery. many of us go through different stages in our discovery but if and when we realize the truth, it isn't because it just came to us...it's more likely it's been there all along, just undiscovered.
because i do not suffer from ->-bleeped-<- doesn't make me not believe in it, it's not my belief system that makes it real or not. some people believe they are autogynephilic and i think it would be pretty silly of me to say i didn't believe in them.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:59:52 AM
As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis"...
Well the thing is, doesn't ->-bleeped-<- "predict" that AFTER transitioning, people will either be:
1) gay men taking advantage of their "femaleness" to be sex-crazed and promiscuous
2) heterosexual men who seem like the stereotypical "man in a dress" with masculine mannerisms, never finding acceptance, etc.
To me, a good theory makes reasonably accurate predictions... and ->-bleeped-<- seems to be pretty far off from the reality of things.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 11:33:11 AM
To me, a good theory makes reasonably accurate predictions... and ->-bleeped-<- seems to be pretty far off from the reality of things.
Well, that's the point isn't it? A theory that actually accounts for something? ->-bleeped-<- accounts for Anne Lawrence and some trans-people, but, from my experience, it doesn't account for the lives of a lot, most I have known, late transitioners, at least not that they'd say it does.
Which is another major problem. The "popularization" by Bailey and Lynn Conway and Andrea James has pretty much made a surety that anyone who that does fit beyond just a few are not going to admit it does.
"Fetishist" is not a generally positive way for most to view themselves, although the argument could be easily made that every Christian who reveres the cross or the crucifix, every Muslim who uses worry-beads, every Wiccan who wears a pentacle, every lesbian who wears a vagina-pendant, and every person who feels a "loyalty and reverence" for their county's flag is a fetishist.
The term is so broad that it is meaningless except that most people seem to think of it as "negative."
N~
I think Claire's initial post was getting at the validity of Dorothy, the late transitioner, as being legitimately a transwoman. ->-bleeped-<- says that she would not be female but a man with a sexual fetish. There have been so many discussions about ->-bleeped-<-. I wonder if some doubt the validity of late transitioners so much that they feel that some pathology must be applied to explain our situation. The crux of the issue is why we didn't deal with our trans issues when we were younger. I too amazed that one can essentially live most of a adult life in one gender role while being the opposite inside. Perhaps, more "thought experiments" should go toward more rational and less stigmatic notions than ->-bleeped-<- to explain our lives.
Maggie
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 11:31:35 AM
well, i guess anyone who believes they "decide" to become transsexual might not believe in hbs. ...
It's not a matter of not "believing" in it, PJ. It's a matter of how it's being used by a large minority, at least, of those who do. It's being used as a way to say "i'm different." "I have more value." You don't seem to approach it that way and neither do Beyond or myself I know for a fact.
But, right now, it's simply a slogan. The scientific evidence that the manifesto states is there isn't. But, there are indications that point in that direction. But, HBS to be valid at all would need to be generalizable to a lot more of the population than just Sue Robbins, Cathy Platine and Lisa Jain Thompson. It's the evidence that's lacking and a lot of people are proclaiming it's truth. Right now it's in a pre-truth stage scientifically.
Quotediagnosing these differences is very difficult, i would almost say it takes one to know one at this stage of scientific discovery. many of us go through different stages in our discovery but if and when we realize the truth, it isn't because it just came to us...it's more likely it's been there all along, just undiscovered.
Yes, it is difficult and for the nonce one still diagnoses himself or herself because it fits an internal knowing. But, science, as is claimed by the manifesto, requires a bit more evidence than is currently available. And the origination of the HBS-manifesto seems to be the need to maintain "this is not all in my head" as a way of escaping what many see as a problem, having a "psychological disorder." Yet, for now, that game is the best one going. Hopefully a new league is being formed around research, research that will absolutely find some biological core to the condition.
Quotesome people believe they are autogynephilic and i think it would be pretty silly of me to say i didn't believe in them.
I don't know how silly it would be, but it would certainly violate your sense that you know about you and would make a real logical and moral impasse.
Nichole
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
I don't believe in Harry Benjamin Syndrome. You'll note that it seems to be a condition of white MtFs in higher socio-economic groups.
Lol, so true.
Lia
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 11:55:13 AM
I think Claire's initial post was getting at the validity of Dorothy, the late transitioner, as being legitimately a transwoman. ->-bleeped-<- says that she would not be female but a man with a sexual fetish. There have been so many discussions about ->-bleeped-<-. I wonder if some doubt the validity of late transitioners so much that they feel that some pathology must be applied to explain our situation. The crux of the issue is why we didn't deal with our trans issues when we were younger. I too amazed that one can essentially live most of a adult life in one gender role while being the opposite inside. Perhaps, more "thought experiments" should go toward more rational and less stigmatic notions than ->-bleeped-<- to explain our lives.
Maggie
I agree about what Claire was getting at, Maggie. And about the "issue."
But the "issue" about "young" and "older" is simply one within the community, in my experience. Another way of saying "but I am not like
YOU! And that red-herring is simply that. No one needs to try to build-up their own validity by trying to make someone else less valid. It's a ploy and says nothing about anyone's validity, except to the degree that PJ is spot-on about the belief aspect.
N~
yes, maggie...it's really about the validity of dorothy. i think the only way that can be proven is from dorothy herself, the rest of us can only speculate. the default position for me is that if she believes she is legitimate...i believe her. i am of the opinion that each transsexual travels her own path and the rest of us are not privy to all the complexities therein. it's that language thing again, how specific do we want to be when we say transsexual. i could limit it down to where i am the only one in the world or spread out the umbrella wide enough to catch....transgender. once we can come up with terms that diffenentiate the subtleties of the overall pattern without people taking offense at every turn we might actually begin to understand and explain ourselves better to the world at large.
Quote from: genovais on July 11, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
I don't believe in Harry Benjamin Syndrome. You'll note that it seems to be a condition of white MtFs in higher socio-economic groups.
Lol, so true.
Lia
Isn't it just!!?
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 12:09:22 PM
yes, maggie...it's really about the validity of dorothy. i think the only way that can be proven is from dorothy herself, the rest of us can only speculate. the default position for me is that if she believes she is legitimate...i believe her. i am of the opinion that each transsexual travels her own path and the rest of us are not privy to all the complexities therein. it's that language thing again, how specific do we want to be when we say transsexual. i could limit it down to where i am the only one in the world or spread out the umbrella wide enough to catch....transgender. once we can come up with terms that diffenentiate the subtleties of the overall pattern without people taking offense at every turn we might actually begin to understand and explain ourselves better to the world at large.
And that is also the truth, PJ. Your best post ever!!! ;) Very well stated and, imo, absolutely correct for the time.
If there is something out there waiting for discovery that post may become antiquated, but it surely seems to fit the current state of affairs.
N~
Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:29:53 AM
Now reading this , you might say I am stupid or touched in the head. I assure you that I am of above average intelligence and completely sane. I was trying to be a "good boy" far too long in a lost cause. I wonder if there are any others who needed to discover their true gender, like me?
Maggie
You just described my experience to a T, just switch genders. The lights finally went on when I purchased men's underwear and was sitting around the house with a dildo in my pants...DUH!! I spent years trying to be a good girl, trying to even figure out what that meant, wondering why I never felt comfortable in the company of other women (as in groups of them, or groups of moms when my kids were small).
I finally discovered what my issues were by reading stories like this and thinking OMG, that's ME!!!
Jay
well, i'm a high-school dropout living on my retirement <which ain't much> and i believe i have what is being called "harry benjamin syndrome". it is a subset of transsexualism describing early onsets. it has nothing what-so-ever to do with my race, education, social standing or economic well being.
it is people who do not accept the legitimacy of dorothy who don't like hbs. it is they who feel themselves somehow less legitimate because they aren't early onsets. i don't see it that way at all. i believe that any transsexualism isn't validated by what one chooses to do about it, but by how they feel inside. i knew i was a girl from the minute i knew there was a difference between boys and girls. my best friend, one of the most legitimate women i have ever met, didn't recognize her transsexualism until she was nearly 30. because she didn't come to the realization until she was of a certain age doesn't make even the slightest difference. people view things in different ways, some question more then others, some don't experience the same trauma as others, there are an almost unlimited number of experiences that we can have to cause us to think this way or that, or to react to stimuli in varying ways.
i have been referred to as illigitimate because i didn't do anything about it for so very long. i got kicked out of one on line group because i refer to my female spouse as my wife. i know women who will never transition, who will not take any concrete steps to affirm their feminity, live out there whole lives drab and in the closet. these too are legitimate women...they are because they believe they are. outside validation is wonderful and can be very helpful but inside validation is all that's really required for alot of people. i just don't see how any of us can comment on the legitimacy of another. once we get into the business of determining who is and who is not legit, we have lost it all.
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 01:14:23 PM
well, i'm a high-school dropout living on my retirement <which ain't much> and i believe i have what is being called "harry benjamin syndrome". it is a subset of transsexualism describing early onsets. it has nothing what-so-ever to do with my race, education, social standing or economic well being.
it is people who do not accept the legitimacy of dorothy who don't like hbs. it is they who feel themselves somehow less legitimate because they aren't early onsets. i don't see it that way at all. i believe that any transsexualism isn't validated by what one chooses to do about it, but by how they feel inside. i knew i was a girl from the minute i knew there was a difference between boys and girls. my best friend, one of the most legitimate women i have ever met, didn't recognize her transsexualism until she was nearly 30. because she didn't come to the realization until she was of a certain age doesn't make even the slightest difference. people view things in different ways, some question more then others, some don't experience the same trauma as others, there are an almost unlimited number of experiences that we can have to cause us to think this way or that, or to react to stimuli in varying ways.
i have been referred to as illigitimate because i didn't do anything about it for so very long. i got kicked out of one on line group because i refer to my female spouse as my wife. i know women who will never transition, who will not take any concrete steps to affirm their feminity, live out there whole lives drab and in the closet. these too are legitimate women...they are because they believe they are. outside validation is wonderful and can be very helpful but inside validation is all that's really required for alot of people. i just don't see how any of us can comment on the legitimacy of another. once we get into the business of determining who is and who is not legit, we have lost it all.
I'm not sure I would go so far as to make a judgement about what people who disagree with HBS are thinking and feeling and their reasons for doing so, PJ. That seems a bit much like what you've argued against, deciding for another what they feel.
Anyone interested can go to this site and read the manifesto, (http://shb-info.org/hbs1page.html) because manifesto it is. The "proofs" for the statements made are not currently supported by any hard, fast scientific evidence. And one might think from reading it that in large part the manifesto is a reaction to "psychological diagnosis" and having to accesss treament in some fashion from psychologists.
As far as how much schooling or not that someone has doesn't really say too much about how well they understand or don't a thing like this. I mean some people dissect Shakespeare's plays for a living and are "authorities." Others of us just love to see
The Tempest or
Hamlet well done. The level of involvement hardly precludes one's enjoyment.
So, that something like HBS as currently described is true I don't doubt. It simply isn't "proven" as yet and I am sure Dr. Gooren would agree with that. And in the hands of some people it has been used as a way of limiting validity to caucasian, middle-to-upper-class women. The actual involvement of FTMs with the HBS folk is as sparse as has been their involvement with the Blanchard bunch.
But, who believes or accepts the truth or the lack-of-proof is not
a priori against or disbelieving of the idea. Some of us are very much in favor of and expect that the idea is valid and true, but we also see the need to actually have some acceptable scientific "truth" before claiming that the theory is proven.
Nichole
Pennyjane:
My statement wasn't intended to belittle or trivialize your feelings about your own identity. I simply take umbrage with the way that the undiagnosable syndrome of which you speak is used as a weapon against other transpeople.
Of course, everyone has the right to self-identify as they see fit.
Lia
QuoteMary - Was born male and given the name of Michael. As far back as she can remember Mary believed she was female. Her parents of course discouraged this belief and Mary tried to fit in with the other boys. At adolescence Mary longed for the body changes she saw in her cisgendered female friends. Mary found she was attracted to men and considered the possibility that she was gay. Once she heard about transsexual people, she knew right away that was what she was. Mary went into therapy and soon after started HRT. Her family was supportive of her decision and after 2 years RLE she was approved for GRS. She was soon on her way to Montreal.
Dorothy - Was born male and given the name of Donald. By the time he reached puberty he knew he was different than his friends. He thought he may be gay but worked to become a "normal" heterosexual male. To that end he became über male and played sports and was promiscuous with women. He took up cross-dressing in private. After a week at a cross-dresser hotel Donald decided that Dorothy was the person she was meant to be. She got on HRT, self-medicating at first. She then decided to complete transition and was soon off to Thailand.
I think both are valid and both are transsexuals.
How about a third type for discussion that seems to be a mix of the two:
Sally- Was born male and given the name of Sam. As far back as she can remember Sally displayed feminine thinking and
traits but never understood what it meant. She tried to talk to her parents but was strongly rejected and with no other
information or support she learned to keep talk like that inside. At adolescence Sally longed for the body changes she saw
in her cisgendered female friends. Sally considered the possibility that she was gay and then worked to become a "normal"
heterosexual male. To that end he became very competitive and played sports and tried to prove himself male, even marrying
and having children. He tried cross dressing but he never understood it or had much of a desire but longed for the feminine face
and body. Eventually he realized that his thinking was entirely female and he identified with female viewpoints of almost all
important issues. That combined with the pressure of seeing the male face and body everyday eventually became too great
and Sam was forced to set Sally free and she started HRT. She realized during the process that she was in fact attracted
to males(as well as females) but not in a homosexual context but as a normal or bi-sexual woman.
On the issue of deciding, does anyone really decide to transition or is it just something that we are forced to do? Let me put it this
way: I feel like I
might be able to decide
not to transition but I have little choice in the matter TO transition.
It's like an invisible force making me move forward. Whereas I feel not transitioning is a choice I can make. I can decide
not to transition. I don't see that as the same thing I guess.
Amanda
Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 11:58:30 AM
Hopefully a new league is being formed around research, research that will absolutely find some biological core to the condition.
But why hope for this?" Isn't the drive behind this the same exact one which prompts the question of who's "real" and who's not? The same insecurity which prompts comparisons of Mary and Dorothy? Isn't this ALL a search for justification, legitimacy, something we can hold up to the world proclaiming,
"see? I TOLD you these shameful thoughts weren't my fault!"Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this
"female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.
What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?
~Kate~
Yes, it is.
I like the idea of a biological cause, but I'm fine with a psychological cause as well, or no freakin cause or many.
I don't think it makes a lot of difference to me if its an obsession because of a neurological reason or a thought reason.
N~
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
But why hope for this?" Isn't the drive behind this the same exact one which prompts the question of who's "real" and who's not? The same insecurity which prompts comparisons of Mary and Dorothy? Isn't this ALL a search for justification, legitimacy, something we can hold up to the world proclaiming, "see? I TOLD you these shameful thoughts weren't my fault!"
Thank you! The minute they find a biological cause, the minute steps are taken to try to "prevent" it
in utero (same thing with homosexuality). After all, in the current way of thinking, it is a "disorder."
Lia
In some ways they are both gonna look the same from the outside.
hi amanda. i think sally is a girl, as much as any other girl. i'm not sure i fully follow your decision making process though. i'm not convinced that transition is always a natural course. it may closely resemble a default course of action but...i'm not sure we are quite there yet, in an evolutionary sense. something about the yin/yang thing. if you can decide not to then it implies that you can decide to.
not sure that makes alot of sense, but...oh well...it is some pretty nutritious food for thought. thanks.
Posted on: July 11, 2008, 02:05:10 PM
hi lia...you make a very powerful point. i wrote a story once i called "the last bus to trinidad". it was the story of the last transsexual going off to get her grs. in the story the cause for transsexualism was discovered. they developed a perfectly safe pill for a pregnant woman to take at a certain time during gestation. it was recommeded to and accepted by women everywhere, after all who really wants their child to be born transsexual? it was just another part of the prenatal experience.
the story scared me to death!
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.
What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?
~Kate~
Maybe this has nothing to do with anything... but even if there was cast iron, irrefutable proof that there was no biological discrepancy to associate GID with... could it really be attributed solely to a preference? Where does the soul/spirit fit in to the equation?
I know this is probably going to come across as new age or something, but regardless of whether anything biological can or cannot explain the way I feel... my soul feels like it doesn't belong in this body, at least not the way it is now. I believe in the process of reincarnation, and have undergone PLR... during which I relived part of a past life where I was female. That felt
right. It's the only way I can think of to explain it. And this time... it feels
wrong. It's a deeper feeling than anything biological. For me it goes beyond the physical into the metaphysical.
To me it's a choice in the same way that eating is a choice. I can choose when and where and what to eat, and I can choose not to eat if I want to. But if I choose not to... there's only one possible outcome. And the more I put it off, the worse the hunger gets.
The birth-abortion thingy is in large part just another fantasy. How many people of those who are pregnant are even interested in sexing the baby?! Far fewer than we'd prolly imagine. Most people I know don't, or haven't, wanted to know even that.
So, yes, if there is a one-gene sequence, which I rather doubt, just too much variation for that it seems like, then the choice to abort a transsexual or gender-variant child would be there to make, just as it is already there to make w/ Down's Syndrome and a host of other birth-defects.
Birth defects have and will continue to occur in human populations regardless of scientific abilities. Heck, some women don't take pre-natal vitamins! Do we really think most people are so ghastly aware of us that they'd try to get rid of us before we're born? Or would they simply be thrilled to have a baby?
Most of the regret seems to be after we reach our teens! :laugh: :laugh:
Nichole
Quoteif you can decide not to then it implies that you can decide to.
See, I don't think we decide to transition, I think it just happens. I don't ever remember
a conscious thought deciding to transition, yet it's happening. And I think that happens
to a lot of us. It's some type of homing instinct or un-conscious thought or will.
Amanda
Quote from: Nero on July 11, 2008, 10:35:39 AM
Decided? Ok I missed that in the first reading. What exactly do you mean by that?
I mean I suppose we all decide whether or not to do something about it.
Was that little word really the distinction? Because I could really see no difference other than circumstance in these two stories. I think you're right on, Nero (as usual).
Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 02:03:42 PM
I like the idea of a biological cause, but I'm fine with a psychological cause as well, or no freakin cause or many.
I don't think it makes a lot of difference to me if its an obsession because of a neurological reason or a thought reason.
N~
Not only doesn't it really make that much of a difference to me, I just don't see that it really amounts to a real difference in the first place. My thoughts run on neurons. My neurons are cells. Cells are the basis of biology. So ... shall we debate holistic and reductionistic etiologies, or can we just accept that some phenomena emerge from multiple levels?
(And can you tell I like Douglas Hofstaedter?)
~Alyssa
Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 11, 2008, 02:59:25 PM
Not only doesn't it really make that much of a difference to me, I just don't see that it really amounts to a real difference in the first place. My thoughts run on neurons. My neurons are cells. Cells are the basis of biology. So ... shall we debate holistic and reductionistic etiologies, or can we just accept that some phenomena emerge from multiple levels?
(And can you tell I like Douglas Hofstaedter?)
Well, I can, because we've discussed his books before, Alyssa!! :laugh: I like him as well you may recall.
And I agree, neurological and neurological are the same thingy. :)
Nichole
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.
What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?
~Kate~
I asked myself that exact same question, Kate. I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. I don't *need* society's validation. Frankly, I could care less.
Even if they do find a "trans gene", or whatever? What of it? Will it make you, or me, or any of us, any more or less of a female (or male for FTM's) than we already KNOW that we are? I doubt it.
And it would most certainly not assuage those strident voices of the phobic one iota! They would still thump their Bibles/Qur'ans/Talmuds/Bob's book of useful things, and condemn us. But then they would sympathetically call for a medical "cure", probably including everything up to and including euthanasia.
And if they prove that there isn't a trans gene. It still would not change our feelings whatsoever. But those strident voices would get a BIG boost!
-Sandy
Quote from: Kassandra on July 11, 2008, 03:05:08 PM
But those strident voices would get a BIG boost!
And there you have it, Sandy. Right now it's "a psychological disorder that needs therapy to cure. Just ask Paul McHugh!!"
Again, you travel unerringly to the core of the arguments of "the strident voices of the phobic." :)
N~
Following on Nichole and Pennyjane post a thought occured to me: If tomorrow a magic pill could "cure me" from being who I am and who I feel I am so as to make me "normal" would I take it?
When I was younger, confused and wanting to fit in, I might have, but today I can say that I wouldn't.
At this stage of my journey my TGism is not a curse anymore, on a contrary I can now see it as blessing. It has given me so much... the chalenge to confront and to transcend the limitation of gender stereotypes, the opportunity and the freedom to explore and express the full span of my desires and feelings. I also know that it has made me a more open and accepting person (of myself and others). It has opened my mind, nourished my curiosity, tested my courage and excited my desire to find out my OWN truth instead of blindly accepting some pseudo scientific or religious ready-made certitudes. It has given me empathy with women, the down-troden and the marginalised. And best of all, I can rejoyce in the celebrations of the diversity of both the feminine and the masculine too.
I have learned so much from it, knowing that I am evolving all the time. Where I am today is so far from where I was before. Accepting and awaiting the next step in my journey of sel-realisation, knowing that what ever choice I will make will be right one for me at the right time. That confidence, free from external pressures and other people agendas or expectation is priceless. I might want to transition and then I might not. This is nobody's business, I can make my own informed choices. All I know it that I have always been me, that I am me now and I will still be me then.
Does that make any sense to any one? ??? Do I care, really? >:D
HLLL&R
Maebh
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.
What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?
~Kate~
Sure. In my case, I don't know if it's biology, either physical or mental, or personal preference. I'm not sure that I really care what it is. I don't need the validation of a diagnosis. As I see it, I have a choice. I can try to live w the body I have, or I can transition. I've done the first one for a long time, always honoring who I am inside. I came to the realization that I was depressed and miserable about it. So on to the next way.
In other societies, some people were born gender variant, and their culture made a space for them. Sometimes they had a very special role.
If it is nothing more than I'd rather be a woman than a man, well, it's still a free country... although last time I checked it was teetering on the edge of it for sure. If I think I'm happier, than why not. And while we're at it, a house in the mountains AND a beach house sound great to me :laugh:
Zythyra
i'm with you maebh. i wouldn't trade one moment of my life to date for anything. sure, it's been tough in places, but who can't say that?
nichole...i wasn't talking about aborting the child, but preventing the circumstances that make the child transsexual. i became interested in this when i read about a couple of studies suggesting a certain period during gestation where the fetus is vulnerable to some hormone washes that may be associated with ts. if this were true and if research leads to a little pill that can be safely taken by the pregnant woman to prevent the washes, or to vacinate the fetus against the affects, i think it likely that most women would opt to take it.
so, it's not like we'd be killed off, just the circumstances leading to our transsexualism being thawrted.
i keep hearing people talking about gid as if it meant transsexual. maybe i'm hearing wrong, but it confuses me at times. gid <gender identity disorder> or gd <gender dysphoria> are completely different then ts. often a gid or gd accompanies ts, but as i've heard suggested, that's mainly due to society's negative attitude about ts. gid and gd are in fact psychological pathologies that can be associated with ts but are not necessarily there in all cases. i can see where a dysphoria will usually accompany ts in that there is a discrepancy between biology and brain gender. once one realizes that the brain is in charge and is what is going to be listened to the dyphoria usually goes away. and, the gid and the gd are very treatable in ts. i was diagnosed with a gid when i first transitioned, but it was completely cured by therapy and eventually grs. i no longer suffer from a gid and i am no longer the victim of a gender dysphoria, i am however; still transsexual. there are other gid's that aren't even related to transsexuals, so that must be taken into account as well when we are discussing transsexualism. again, that language thing.
Thank you all for your parts in making this such a successful discussion! I'm glad I had to go out this morning. My own more adversarial style could have led it into less interesting directions. I'm amazed by the level of consensus among everyone. Once semantics are put aside we're all pretty accepting of each others' paths and experiences.
Susans's is the best! :angel:
Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 04:40:34 PM
Once semantics are put aside we're all pretty accepting of each others' paths and experiences.
Susans's is the best! :angel:
I'll drink to that! :icon_drunk:
SláinteHLLL&R
Maebh
So will I and I think the language isn't a problem in that regard!! :laugh:
Nichole
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 03:57:38 PM
...
nichole...i wasn't talking about aborting the child, but preventing the circumstances that make the child transsexual. i became interested in this when i read about a couple of studies suggesting a certain period during gestation where the fetus is vulnerable to some hormone washes that may be associated with ts. if this were true and if research leads to a little pill that can be safely taken by the pregnant woman to prevent the washes, or to vacinate the fetus against the affects, i think it likely that most women would opt to take it.
so, it's not like we'd be killed off, just the circumstances leading to our transsexualism being thawrted.
OK, but is that a practical concern at this point? That just seems totally beyond any current technological possibilities and any we may develop in the foreseeable future. Tracking the actual hormonal secretions and when they occur? Developing a pill that will selectively stop one particular type of birth and leave the rest alone?
Given our existence as a % of population I think the worries about that are for a long-time the stuff of science-fiction, definitely not science-fact at this point, PJ. The precision is just too acute and the return on investment for pharmaceuticals makers is just too small anytime soon. Or so I would argue.
N~
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PMAsk yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological.
I never thought it WAS biological until many years after the fact. I thought I was just @$#%ing NUTS! In looking back at the 24 years before transition/SRS and the years afterward I could simply find no explanation how/why I could possibly have endured more than a decade of pure hell, ended up seriously suicidal, and then soared into womanhood like it was all 'old hat' if it wasn't the "female brain" theory. If the brain isn't biologically shaped, then the only thing left is spiritual.
you fly jane!
no, nichole...it's not a practical concern as of right now. just things i tend to speculate about. i also envision the day one of us will give birth. not that it's likely to happen anytime soon, but it's still a lovely vision. this flashed into my consiciousness when i heard about some doctor's at johns hopkins working on uterel transplants. God, things do move fast!
i guess i do see myself as part of something much larger then myself. i'm amazed and a little overwhelmed when i realize that for the previous generation to mine, grs was not even imaginable. all of us had to suffer through life without ever reaching or even hoping for that level of fulfillment. to me it's a miracle, i'm on my knees often in gratitude that i came when i did. it makes me feel a special kinship and responsibility for the next generation, i've been given so much by the previous one that i can never do enough for the next.
so, i guess the irony isn't lost on me that just now, just when we're really starting to get good at bringing transsexuals to fulfillment by way of medical science and research we are also on the road to doing away with ourselves by the same method.
we've talked some about the magic pill to bring our minds and spirits into congruence with our bodies. i'm a little surprised and very gratified to hear so many who say they would not take it. i know i'd flush that bugger down the nearest toilet with all due haste, and i'd wear gloves when handling it! being transsexual is not a ho hum thing to me. i'm so very, very glad i am and i owe the existence i have today in no small part to the history my ts has provided me.
transsexuals have been around since the beginning of time, though it's only now when we can do something about it that we are becoming known. i think ending this particular form of human diverstity would be a shame and a great loss to our species as a whole. the very idea saddens me and can move me to melancholy if i'm not careful...so i'm gonna go watch a cartoon. may God bless us all with...
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.
It would be difficult for me to be "as normal as the next male" in any way since I'm not male.
I never based my decision on being physically different. But all my physical differences from "normal males" are hard to ignore.
Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
We've talked some about the magic pill to bring our minds and spirits into congruence with our bodies. i'm a little surprised and very gratified to hear so many who say they would not take it....
Transsexuals have been around since the beginning of time....
I think ending this particular form of human diverstity would be a shame and a great loss to our species as a whole. the very idea saddens me
Sláinte I'll drink to that too! :icon_drunk:
HLLL&R
Maebh
I can relate to Dorothy, except I went the other way.
I was a total preppy girl for a while. Make up, push up bra, hair done, tight jeans the works. I thought being more feminine would make me feel more feminine. I tried to avoid the idea that I was a guy. But I could only shove it off for so long... I realized that I am most passionate and wonderful when I am myself. That is in the masculine role, when I can just dance and sing and nobody can tell me otherwise. When I was being the gender I wasn't, I felt weak and alienated. I'm sure Dorothy struggled with this, felt powerless as a man, and that's why she beefed up so much.
So I don't think Dorothy is any less of a woman at all. She just struggled. She had that same struggle I did. She may have thought that staying "natural" was better. But you know, I've realized that the gift of science can be a wonderful thing. Let's hope there isn't some world war that deprives us of that magnificent resource.
If it was proven that GID was not biological, I'd be pretty upset. Why? Because then they'd try to force me to be a girl. Because they'd want to use "behavioral therapy." But over hundreds and maybe even thousands of years, that hasn't worked. Transition has been the answer because it works. If GID being completely psychological doesn't take away my transition, then I don't give a damn. The problem is when the nature of the diagnosis compromises the treatment.
To be honest, I think being transgendered is partially a blessing. I have no transpride, but I will say that if it wasn't for this, I wouldn't br a man. I'd be in the other role, blissfully ignorant. Wouldn't life be a bore without this struggle, this transformation? I wouldn't give a thing in the world to be "reborn" male because I cherish this life.