Hi. The main thing I work on in my transition is my voice because I feel it would probably be the hardest work I would put into my transition. I started about two years ago and I am very happy with my voice progression. I spent a lot of time into studying female speech production and applying it to my own voice.
But it wasn't until last month that I began to really question why most females do not have a prominent adam's apple. I read that it is actually hidden behind some muscles in their neck.
Then I noticed that when I breathed like a female, my adams apple would lose it prominence. So all I had to do was breathe deeper to create room for my larynx to rest further in my neck.
I did this for a couple of days and woke up one morning to find that my adams apple was gone. I was happy because not only did it make feel better but it made my voice sound so much better and it became much easier to breath using my upper airway muscles ( like females do ). My larynx now sits higher in my neck. Theres range, theres clarity,... I love it. I use to have a very noticable adams apple..and now its gone.
Now that I know that it is possible to naturally get rid of the adams apple prominence, I'm starting to wonder why do so many people opt for the trachea shave? I've read it does nothing for the voice and is more a cosmetic thing.
I looked at so many M-F voice guides and instructional audios and videos only to find that none of them really touched on what I've learned MYSELF through developing a real female voice. Most talk about resonance, bogas pitch training methods, but from what I've learned its more about working out the muscles that help you produce speech.
Right now, my voice is at a point where I don't have to think so much about it. But, since I am not living my life as woman, I was wondering if there is any information out there about what I've done by positioning my larynx. I have not even attempted to talk 100% in my old male voice because I'm not use to breathing in that manner anymore...so its kinda... weird to breath like a guy now.lol But I can still sound male when I want.... kinda of how females can imitate a male voice.
I just really want to know if there is any information online about what I've done. I love it BTW but I would feel a lot more comfortable with myself if I had medical input, because the skin around my neck itches and theres a small sharp pain that I can feel... I dunno.
What you're saying is not possible.
??? Its possible because I did it.
How can an adam's apple just disappear? With all due respect hon, this just sounds a little out there.
I know what you mean and I was shocked myself, but the adams apple did not just 'disappear'. Women DO have adams apples but its just resting between these two muscles. And if I did it then its gotta be possible and probably even easier if a professional were to guide someone through therapy.
I'm not going to post video or pics of myself because I am NOT open or even -image wise- transitioning yet.
But, I did start posting audio on youtube about -developing a female voice- because someone asked me to.
http://youtube.com/user/shevoice (http://youtube.com/user/shevoice)
The audios that are marked for 1+month ago are before my larynx was naturally repositioned. But the latest two that are from this month are the after audio clips. I maybe shouldn't have recored them during that time because it was right after and during the -allegies/sickness- that follows a dramatic change in my voice. Now, 2 weeks later, my voice is a lot more stable and comfortable.
As a scientist, all I ask is some sort of empirical proof of this.
I mean I got rid of mine, but I used beer and sort of covered it up.
Quote from: tekla on July 21, 2008, 04:06:48 PM
As a scientist, all I ask is some sort of empirical proof of this.
I mean I got rid of mine, but I used beer and sort of covered it up.
How did you get rid of yours using beer? Inquiring minds want to know :laugh:
Z
well, with enough beer, it just sort of goes away
hmmm... I could take pictures of my neck but even then I guess that could be refuted.
But if you are scientist then you should be able to understand that if you change your breathing pattens then that will have an effect on the larynx. After all, that is one of the reasons why the larynx drops during puberty. Because boys(mostly unconsciously) try to sound deeper and force their larynx down. With the help of the natural high level of testosterone already in their system, it helps them achieve this desired male voice that they were aiming for.
What I think I did was start breathing using my upper airway muscles(like most children and females do) and my brain has accepted this change.
In fact, boys, and girls too, get deeper voices during puberty due to the growth of the vocal chords, (see: golden mean and the Greek idea of length of notes on a sting) not any attempt to 'sound deeper.' Matter of fact, lots of boys try very hard not to have their voices break, only to fail in the end.
If mind over matter could change anatomy then the average male length would be more like six feet not six inches.
The vocal cord growth is a part of it but not all 'boys' end up sounding like males after puberty and ,if they are raised as a female , then they do not end up sounding male at all... they sound female.
In the end, the desire to conform is what pushes boys to sound like men.
I didn't start sounding male until I was 12 but before then I would sound just like my sisters. I was also consciously aware that I needed to sound more like a male, so even at that early age, I mentally setup myself up to become more accepting to the hormonal changes that puberty brought. I remembered this when I set out to change my voice 2 years ago.
but not all 'boys' end up sounding like males after puberty
Robert Plant notwithstanding.
lol.yyyyyeeea ok.
I didn't make this so I would have to prove myself or anything... but hopefully someone who is wondering ,what I once wondered, will stumble across this thread and know that what they are thinking is actually possible with dedication. :police:
Silentcandy,
That's not what we meant at all, hon. Just that it sounds outrageous and we'd like more information.
Not to question your results, but the male Adam's apple protrudes because men not only have have thicker thyroid cartilage, but their cartilage forms a steeper angle than that of women. It's a purely biological factor, and has nothing to do with conscious or unconscious intent.
It might be that you're just exercising muscular control to alter the resonance and/or pitch of your voice.
Believe me, if trying to sound deeper & more masculine is what leads to a deep, masculine voice, and vice versa, then I'd be a very happy soprano right now.
I'm not a doctor and would like more information on this myself.
I'll try to explain what I feel happens.
Last year, I told myself that the reason why men and women sound so different is because they breathe differently using different muscles in their throat. Men tend to use more of the lower respiratory airway muscles while women use the upper airway muscles to breathe and speak.
Estrogen always plays a part in this because it somehow relaxes the upper airway muscles. Since women naturally have high estrogen, this is makes it easier for them to naturally breathe using the upper airway muscles.
Most children breath using their upper airway muscles and that is why children suffer from sleep apnea and upper airway obstructions a lot more than adult male and females.( male being the 2nd highest possibly because the lack of estrogen)
I believe its because their sleeping mind does not to tell them that they do not have the upper airway strength to breath this way..and it causes obstruction. Medically, there is still a lot unknown about this.
If you were to try and breath using your own upper airway muscles then your larynx would be pushed back into your throat. I'm guessing, because we're pushing the larynx inwards it tightens the vocals cords and causes them to become shortened( like females ). This is also why coffee makes it easier for people suffering from asthma attacks to breathe. It opens up the overall bronchial airways.
While I was training myself to naturally breath using the upper airway muscles, I noticed that the deeper my breaths were the higher my pitch got during the exhale release. So I started holding my inhale to produce a higher pitch sound and slowing talking it out, but still keeping my larynx pushed inwards to forever hold this position. I then started inhale and exhaling while using my neck muscles to hold the position of my larynx inwards. When I slept, ate, drank, laughed, talked, I would also keep breathing in this position.
I know it may sound confusing and its already lengthy but there is so much more that I did and believe helped me doing this.
tekla, mentioned something about the mind having control over the bodies ability as a joke, but I think its true. Even sneezing played a huge part in this because I used my mind to tell the muscles that cause sneezing to force out a sneeze using the upper airway muscles that were obstruction my airway; instead of just naturally sneezing using the lower muscles like my body normally did. It was like forcing the muscles to move and give airway access at a faster rate.
I'll stop now before this starts sounding even crazier. to you all. ol
I never said it was a joke. I said if you had that ability, the adam's apple is not where you would start.
Quote from: Nephie on July 21, 2008, 04:55:27 PM
Not to question your results, but the male Adam's apple protrudes because men not only have have thicker thyroid cartilage, but their cartilage forms a steeper angle than that of women. It's a purely biological factor, and has nothing to do with conscious or unconscious intent.
It might be that you're just exercising muscular control to alter the resonance and/or pitch of your voice.
Believe me, if trying to sound deeper & more masculine is what leads to a deep, masculine voice, and vice versa, then I'd be a very happy soprano right now.
mmm... I understand what you're saying but females can train their voices to not only sound male, but to also drop that larynx so low that it protrudes like a prominent males would. But before this, their larynx would be inwards instead of steading down. I'm saying that it is possible to put it back.
exercising muscular control is what I call workout out the that geniohyoid muscle that follows from the base of your chin to under your tongue. It is also an upper airway muscle that, I feel , needs to be exercised for range control and pitch. Females use this muscle( and all upper airway muscles) when speaking and breaking a lot more than males do.
I read a very awaking report where they performed these testing. I'll post it if you like, but it is very long. Its titled "Upper airway activity in normal women: influence of hormonal status".
Posted on: July 21, 2008, 05:41:01 PM
Quote from: tekla on July 21, 2008, 05:40:06 PM
I never said it was a joke. I said if you had that ability, the adam's apple is not where you would start.
ah ok.lol Sorry. ^^; But ,because I'm me, its where I started from. :laugh:
There is actually a physiological diff in the female and male larynx, its not
just positioning. T changes the larynx's shape.
Its not that much of the size either, its more the shape it has which makes
it protude more. There is a bit of a diff in size, but that doesn't explain
the adam's apple by itself.
But, its possible to reinforce certain muscles in your throat to make
it easier to position the larynx at its highest position which
gives a head voice (in singing). The head voice has a shallower
hair column and thus gives higher harmonics not just in the direct
from the vocal cords sound, but also in its reflection.
I have a very noticeable adam's apple but I have noticed that when I swallow it moves up and all but vanishes for a second then moves back down when the motion is done. I have often wondered if you could train your throat muscles to hold it up there where is much less noticeable. This is the same thing Keira is talking about I think. The only problem is I get a sore throat when I hold it there for long. I wonder if its possible to build the muscles up enough to hold it there permanently. Hmm I am going to have to do some serious google searching later today.
K
Quote from: Keira on July 23, 2008, 04:50:43 AM
There is actually a physiological diff in the female and male larynx, its not
just positioning. T changes the larynx's shape.
Its not that much of the size either, its more the shape it has which makes
it protude more. There is a bit of a diff in size, but that doesn't explain
the adam's apple by itself.
But, its possible to reinforce certain muscles in your throat to make
it easier to position the larynx at its highest position which
gives a head voice (in singing). The head voice has a shallower
hair column and thus gives higher harmonics not just in the direct
from the vocal cords sound, but also in its reflection.
Yes, and women naturally use more of their head voice because of the lack of testosterone which helps in lowering the voice. They are able to keep it there because they breathe using their upper airway muscles, where as males use the there lower muscles( which gives the larynx room to drop).
QuoteI have a very noticeable adam's apple but I have noticed that when I swallow it moves up and all but vanishes for a second then moves back down when the motion is done. I have often wondered if you could train your throat muscles to hold it up there where is much less noticeable. This is the same thing Keira is talking about I think. The only problem is I get a sore throat when I hold it there for long. I wonder if its possible to build the muscles up enough to hold it there permanently. Hmm I am going to have to do some serious google searching later today.
K
Not only do you have to train your muscles to do this, but you have to train yourself to breathe differently to keep it up there. If you can breathe using more of your upper airway muscles, your adams apple will become less prominent.
Now, I'm noticing some strong psychological connections that could assist in making this easier. I believe it has something to do with how we hear ourselves. I read a report that said most people hear themselves a deep pitch/tone because of vibrations in the skull, whereas other people hear us differently(generally with a higher pitch). This was an explanation as to why don't think we sound like we do when we record our voices.
I'm finding it helpful to listen to myself talk LIVE in a pitch alternating program but at a deeper pitch.( -1)
When I hear voice in this altered lower pitch, my brain seems to tell me to raise my pitch because it knows this not how I want to sound. After a while, I'll put the pitch back to normal and notice that my voice sounds better. (more pitch).
I also do this with the music I listen to. I lower the pitch of the song to about -3 ( in audacity) and sing along with it. When we sing along to a song, I think our brain tells us that "we" are the ones making that Britney voice, so we get relaxed because "we sound good", but its not us.
But when you lower the pitch of the song, your brain tells you that "this is not how the song is supposed to sound!" so you sing along with it but you're making an effort to sound pitcher hoping to sound more accurate than this altered version.
This is kinda stuff is why I think some kind of voice therapy would be great. I've never taken voice therapy but if I can conclude this type of stuff on my own, then I wonder what kind of techniques a therapist would have you go over. Maybe what I do to myself is a bit intense...lol
A really interesting thread,
i still have no idea how to breath with my upper airway to try some of this out, luckily in some ways im only small with a small jaw and ive already learnt to remove alot of the bass and depth in my own but if your ever bored silentcandy im sure alot of us would really like to try out your methods probably in conjuction with their own speech therapy.
A beginners guide sometime ??? :)
V x
I've actually tried doing that before, just to remember certain key things that would help me -warm up- in the day and to keep of list of what does what. Its like I learn new techinques but forget about some of the older ones. Thats kinda why I started that youtube account too. Until a few days ago, I had forgotten how effective doing "head voice" training was. I've been so hooked on the geniohyoid muscle and upper airway stuff. Even now, as I'm drinking coffee, I'm wondering if I should stop again since I've already used it to help me breathe easier...I think I will stop. :D
I'm not going to throw myself too much into this discussion.
But, if you refer to Calpernia Adams CD/DVD about creating a female voice, part of the training is learning to raise the larynx. This does a couple of things. It cuts the resonance of the male voice so it sounds more feminine. It also obscures the trachea because it is hidden beneath the other throat muscles. And yes, you can learn to breath using the upper part of your lungs and less of your diaphragm.
If you have a less pronounced trachea then you will have less of a protuberance. So less of your Adams apple will appear.
My trachea was small to begin with but I still opted for the shave, even though it too was virtually invisible when I raised my larynx to cut my resonance.
Also I too have been creating my feminine voice for well over a year using these same techniques. I now get ma'amd on the phone.
Silentcandy:
Your process of self discovery is gratifying. And I wish you all the best. The best rule of thumb when learning to feminize your voice is that if it hurts, don't do it.
And check out Cal's website for some free tips about voice training. They really help!
-Sandy
Thank you Kassandra :) I complete agree that if it hurts, don't do it. The first week I started I decided to scream my throat out in an attempt to sound better... it gave me my first case of laryngitis and I told myself I would never do that again, and I haven't.
I've never heard of Calpernia Adams but I will check her out now, she sounds like she knows what she's talking about. ^ ^
a rather famous lady
she also has a forum, kind of small and takes ages to get signed up but still worthwhile. Thanks as well Kassandra, to be honest i wasnt sure if Ms adams course was just another product what with so many therapy courses its hard to choose one thats gonig to really help and they usualy cost so much too.
I'm not sure how to go about breathing with upper respiratory muscles and all that, but I'll look into that. I haven't had much luck with my voice so far...
I'm kind of odd - my Adam's apple is small. Really small. Invisibly small, without exaggeration. It's also really really low, like almost under the collarbone. Even if I tilt my head back and swallow, it's very hard to pick out among the general tracheal/esophageal movement. I can feel it with my hands, but I have to actually poke myself in the throat to do it. That makes it really hard (and uncomfortable) to observe what happens to it during voice practice. If I raise my pitch, it gets lost somewhere inside my upper neck, and yet I still sound like a guy.
Actually, the most success I had with my voice was one day when I jabbed the edge of my hand into my trachea near the base of my jaw while holding a high note, just for the hell of it. It dropped the pitch dramatically, and I fought to raise it back (and to breathe) while holding the hand there. When I had it back, and took away the hand, my voice got somehow "stuck" in a quasi-female sounding tone & resonance for a few minutes, until I cleared my throat.
Quote from: Krystal on July 23, 2008, 06:27:27 AM
I have a very noticeable adam's apple but I have noticed that when I swallow it moves up and all but vanishes for a second then moves back down when the motion is done. I have often wondered if you could train your throat muscles to hold it up there where is much less noticeable. This is the same thing Keira is talking about I think. The only problem is I get a sore throat when I hold it there for long. I wonder if its possible to build the muscles up enough to hold it there permanently. Hmm I am going to have to do some serious google searching later today.
K
Krystal.........Yeah, it's more than just possible. That is how Kathy Perez teaches female resonance and pitch in her CD's. If your throat gets sore, then rest it, but keep practicing. I had no choice, as I went fulltime, BOOM, overnight. It stops getting sore after a month or two, and then you can use your voice almost all day. Yes, it is a process of building up certain laryngeal muscles, and letting others relax, so they diminish in size. The intention is to develop a female voice, not hide your adams apple, although that happens also. I've practiced my voice for a year now, and rest during my days off, but I still have a female voice, just a note or two lower. I can summon up my old voice if I concentrate, then flip back and forth. Marcy hates it. It creeps her out, so I won't do it anymore. Besides, why would I want the old voice of Mike?? Okay.....once in a while, if I have to talk to my medical insurance reps, or something off the wall like that, I'll use my male voice, but it's not anything that it used to be, thank God.
Now, I practice my female singing voice. I sang in choir as a baritone, and now have an alto voice. I much prefer singing in my female voice.
Bev
Well, I don't know about "muscles" hiding the larynx because T sometimes causes the adam's apple to develop in FtMs (or at least that's what I've heard). Also, with my limited knowledge of anatomy, I can feel my larynx just fine. It doesn't seem blocked by anything.
As you can see in my avatar, my larynx is showing up in the shadowing. That photo, however, is a trick of the light. That's me being a good photographer; I have no true adam's apple.
Hi Miss Bev
Have you got a link to those Kathy Perez CDs? google can't seem to find them :( My voice is going to be the hardest think for me to change I think and I need all the help with it I can get.
thanks
K